MothertheOther, you really are very naive aren't you.

Besides you have walls up so high around yourself protecting what you "think" is right, no person would be able to penetrate them. To be in a relationship requires vulnerability, and it appears you choose to be inpenetrable.

You have walls up so high around yourself protecting what you "think" is right, no person would be able to penetrate them. To be in a relationship requires vulnerability, and it appears you choose to be inpenetrable.

FINEDREAMS SAID:
"i never trust stories about women tricking men by getting pregnant."

Some of them are true...

My husband comes from a poor family and didnt even live with his parents as a teen.By 18 years old,he already had a set of twin daughters.
He told his next GF that he didnt want anymore kids until he was married because he already had two.She lied and said no problem that she was on the pill.
Well,she got pregnant,and HID THE PRGNANCY FROM HIM FOR EIGHT MONTHS! He kept asking her if she was and she kept saying no.
The dumb a$$ didnt even go to a doctor at all for any pre-natal care!!!

He was disapointed when he finally found out,but at that point what could he do?
So he stayed with her another three years and helped take care of their daughter.

He finally left because she threw a glass bottle at his head WHILE HE WAS HOLDING THE BABY.She took the child and told him he'd never see her again.

Fast forward to when he met me.We married and had our own child.Then HE HAD A VASECTOMEY under my encouragement.

5 years later this crazy ex tracks him down and now she wants child support.No problem,my husband is excited he will at least get to see his daughter.
She lets him see her ONE TIME.Just long enough to fool social services that she even had custody of her and then she ships daughter to her brother's to live while she sits back and collects money from my husband.Can you say EXTORTION?

Husband keeps calling because he wants to see daughter.Phone is disconnected.
Husband finally contacts Social services and they investigate.They close the case because they discover daughter is not living with BIOMOM.

A couple more years later biomom's brother gets a hold of husband and says he should see his daughter.Now daughter is very resentful of husband and they have NO RELATIONSHIP because biomom kept her away all those years.
No matter how hard husband tries to make it up to SD,it doesnt work.

So is my husband an IDIOT for not using protection? Absolutely.Will it ever happen to him again if we seperate for some reason?
NO,because I saw to it he has a VASECTOMEY and it has worked fne these last 9 years.

It is kinda sexist to say men only make stuff up and women are always the victims.
It's not always true.

plasticgarden,

Are you saying that if you hadn't talked him into having a vasectomy, and if you separated, he might once again fail to use protection?

Wow, I really stirred up a hornet's nest with this one didn't I?? I didn't write this post for sympathy or to get slammed by people who don't know the "whole story". And, I didn't "steal" him from his ex-wife. I actually didn't know it was possible to steal a person. Anyway, I understand that ex's have issues. But his ex is psycho and I'm not saying this because I don't like her. When my DH family found out that he had left her they were mad--until she followed and started her crap and continued it for almost 9 years now. Now they understand, because of her actions now, why my DH left her. And, you can all be as ticked off as you want at me for leaving my children, but as someone said, you don't know all the circumstances of my leaving. I don't have to justify myself to anyone for anything I have done or not done. My children love me, and I them, irregardless of where I am or how often they see me.

jbabe, I imagine that a day will come when your children fully grasp that you (their mother) actually abandoned them (her children) for some guy. And that even though you (their mother), moved 6 hours away, you only bother to see them twice a year. And that your ex manages to encourage the facade of the relationship between you and "his" children, perhaps qualifies him for sainthood. I am sure that you and this guy have had a great time, living for yourselves. I imagine one day, you will grasp what this cost your children.

TOS:

I doubt he'd be stupid enough not to use protection now,but you never know.
Most of his family dropped out of HIGHSCHOOL(he is the ONLY ONE who graduated highschool),the women in his family keep having more babies by different guys and none of them are married.

His own dad,when we told him husband was getting a vasectomey actually tried to talk him out of it because he said having kids was "FUN" (by the way,he is on his FOURTH marriage and has four kids as well)

I'd hope after all the heartache he's been through he would now use protection.

I also know of cases where the father was "tricked".
A friend of my sister's admits that she lied to her husband about the pill. She wanted a baby, but he said he wasn't ready just yet. She didn't want to wait, so she stopped taking it and didn't tell him. He'd known she was on it previously, so had no reason to distrust her at that point. I'd say that's a good example of how a committed man can be tricked.

Another woman I know (who I wouldn't really describe as mentally or emotionally balanced) wanted to become pregnant, so she damaged all her condoms. Then, when it came time to use one, she unwrapped it, put it on him and took it off again when they were done. Her BF was probably thinking "Sweet deal! She puts it on and I don't have to touch the icky thing after!" Luckily for him, she didn't get pregnant before he realized what a nut she was and broke it off, but that would have been a case of a guy using protection and being tricked.

A friend I went to school with had wanted a baby since we were about 13. When she became sexually active at 16, she went on the pill, but didn't take it properly (often missing 2 or 3 pills in a row, starting packs late, etc). But, she told her monogamous BF that she was on it and they quit using condoms. She got pregnant, and he was less than pleased, but she was delighted. I'd say that's partial trickery: she said she was on the pill (true) but she withheld the information that she didn't take it properly. He probably would have liked to have known that.

Exactly ceph.

Let's face it,women can be very manipulative too.It is nieve at best to think they arent capable of tricking a man,as men are at tricking us by cheating.

When it comes to pregnancy,we do hold the cards at controling whether or not we want a child more the man does.The best they have is a condom,and as ceph pointed out,even that can be altered if someone wanted.
Saying they shouldnt be having sex at all then is a moot point and not a likely scenerio.

He didn't think it strange that his girlfriend always supplied the condoms? How did he miss the fact that the little foil packet had been opened already? That is very weird - I kind of doubt that successful condom vandalism is terribly common.

I think it is probably very common for young girls to have trouble taking the pill on a consistent schedule.

A mature, committed partner would probably have number occasions to observe the woman actually taking the pill. He would likely go with her to the gyn; be there when she refilled the prescription, be around to notice if the pills were getting used. I suppose it is possible for the woman to put the pill in her mouth and later spit it out, but I suspect that that degree of planning to deceive does not happen very often. Aside from the fact that any woman with half a brain wouldn't want to trick someone into fathering her child, because there is a high probability that she would be raising it as a single parent (and children almost always cost far more to raise than you ever see in child support), any guy in a committed relationship who was not completely oblivious would have a pretty good idea whether or not his partner was actually using birth control.

You make good points TOS.Although I have heard of women using a pin needle to POKE THROUGH THE CONDOM PACKAGE so they dont even have to take it out.

One thing though,alot of women (just as alot of men) dont have more then half a brain! LOL...

Even my own mom admitted to me she got pregnant with me ON PURPOSE because she didnt want my dad to leave her.
You have to admit that is the oldest story in the book.
Why women think just because they get pregnant a guy wont leave is beyond me.It usually makes them run faster.

Your points about it being hard to deceive in a "comitted" relationship are also good,although some people pass like ships in the night.
My husband would have no clue if I wanted to lie because he gets up earlier then me,and I go to bed later then him.

I do completely agree with you though that young girls cant be relied on to take the pill everyday.But,just as young boys can hardly be expected to use a condom properly or everytime (some too embarrssed to buy them)And,girls at least have the option of the DEPO shot which they dont take everyday,but get only once every couple of months.

I'm sure if they had a birth control shot for guys they would be lining up around the block for it!

I also doubt successful condom vandalism is very common, but the point is that it can happen. It's fairly common today for a "your house, your condom supply" system between couples, so, no, he didn't think it was odd that she supplied the condoms at her house. He didn't notice any tampering because she did it all - get it out of the drawer, open it, put it on, etc.

I was young fairly recently and found that girls who didn't want to get pregnant took it properly or told their BF if they screwed up. But that's not the point of the trickery issue anyhow, it's the nondisclosure that I see as a problem. Anytime I've missed a pill, I've said "Honey, hate to say it, but I missed a pill. It's condoms for us this month. Whee." I choose to disclose because I a) don't wish to be a single mom and b) don't want him to think I lied if he finds out somehow.

There are lots of holes in that last bit:
Plenty of mature committed partners don't see their wife or GF taking their pill. That could be due to different work schedules, sleep schedules, that she takes it in the morning when she goes to the bathroom with the door closed, and so on.
I sincerely doubt many men go to pap smears with their wives. In fact, I've never heard of it at all. I wouldn't ~want~ my BF going with me to the gyn for a regular checkup where I chill out in stirrups for awhile and we talk about my breast health and birth control. I guess he could sit in the waiting room, but no way is he coming in the exam room, no matter what our level of commitment, unless I'm already pregnant. Is a wife only committed if she goes with her husband to get his prostate checked?
As for picking up prescriptions, the division of labour in many families puts errands of that nature firmly in the woman's list of duties, even in today's modern marriages.

I agree that it's foolish to trick someone into fathering a child and that it rarely works out, but it's probably a lot easier than any of us who are too smart to do it would ever think.

"A mature, committed partner would probably have number occasions to observe the woman actually taking the pill. He would likely go with her to the gyn; be there when she refilled the prescription, be around to notice if the pills were getting used. I suppose it is possible for the woman to put the pill in her mouth and later spit it out"

lol, am I the only one that thinks this is ridiculous? I can almost picture it now, the BF/husband standing over her shoulder to watch her take the pill, then make her open her mouth and check under her tongue. It sounds a bit too controlling for me.

Nope, Ima, you're not alone! That's the ridiculous image I saw too. lol!
And I agree about the controlling bit - my jealous, manipulative and controlling ex and I used to fight about my pill pack. If I had it in my purse or makeup bag for a few days, he'd start asking why I was "hiding them"
Of course, this is the same man who accused me of cheating on him when I shaved my legs to go to a conference where I knew my hotel would have a pool...

No not the only one ima,I think that was a little over the top too.(at the very least not very realistic at all)When I was on the pill and in "commited" relationships,I dont remember anyone ever asking/caring what or when I did with my pills.

Ceph that's crazy about the shaving the legs thing.I know a guy who thought whenever my friend was putting on make up that she was doing something bad.He hated when she wore it cuz he didnt want other guys looking at her,so when she put it on he would tell her to go wash it off.I would have told him to take a flying leap,but that's just me :)

Garden,
My sympathies to your friend! Hopefully she was tough enough to break free of it and that she looks back on her experience with jealousy/control the same way I do - that it's something to learn from and never repeat, but that she's able to chuckle a little at the sheer absurdity of the behavior. I laugh when I think of some of the stunts my ex pulled - I think you'll like this one too:
I was having afternoon coffee with my lab supervisor (who is male). Ex showed up by surprise (a favourite of his), so I quickly finished my conversation with my supervisor and took my coffee out to the benches in the hall to drink it with him. He pitched a fit that I took 45 seconds to finish my previous conversation, "You ignored me to hang out with your boss! You like your boss better than me!"
I tried to remain calm, but the petulant tone got the better of me "Well, yeah, when you act like that, I sure do!"
(Somehow that didn't calm Mr. Jealousy down? Who knew?)
:)

My exH did not want a second child at that time in our life when i really wanted another child. He was very determined to not have another child right away (and rightly so, we got married he was 19, we both were working on 4-year degrees and he was working 3 jobs at the time and we were raising a child and really really struggling), so he used a condom every time we had sex no matter if used a pill or no. I vaguely remembered that i did want to trick him and getting pregnant (I was in my early 20s and stupid) but I could not trick him at all. Sometimes i wish i did trick him because years later I ended up not being able to have children anymore and I do wish I have two kids. But anyways what i am trying to say is that if a man does not want a child as strongly as my ex did, you cannot trick him.

All I can say is that men don't always think with the correct head. Some of it has to do with maturity, age, life experiences, etc. If they have kids and know they don't want more, they are going to be a little more diligent than a guy that thinks he can't get someone pregnant because in the past, he got lucky when having unprotected sex. (I've known someone that said he was with his girlfriend for three years and he "couldn't" get her pregnant. Then his new girlfriend got pregnant right away. Guess he didn't consider that it could be that the girl couldn't get pregnant. But guys don't always think like that.)

Regardless of the guys' responsibility to use protection, it's still wrong when the woman lies and says she is protected and her goal is to get pregnant without his agreement. To him, it's an unplanned pregnancy but to her, it was planned. There are still quite a few guys out there that will marry a girl and try to make it work, just as there are guys that will run to the hills. My husband was the kind of guy that probably would have married her but he found out that she was a liar and thief. He has never run from his responsibility.

What happened? The posts have gone in a totally different direction from what the OP intended.

My exH usually went with me to ob/gyn appointments; he was definitely there when I was first prescribed the pill many, many years ago. Of course he saw me taking the pill most of the time - not because he was checking on me, but because we spent a lot of time together, eating breakfast together, etc. We spent most of our free time together, so we knew what each other was doing.

and he still had time to have an affair?

Ima,

TOs and I were both married for many years before X started affair.

"We spent most of our free time together, so we knew what each other was doing."

her words, not mine. If this is true, then how could he have an affair?

Ima,

Things changed over the course of a long marriage.

As kkny pointed out, the affair was 25 years, six kids, and a vasectomy later. Even then, I am not sure how he managed the affair without getting fired, since it was carried on mostly during work time. One reason I got suspicious was that he was working extra - but it was only about once every few weeks.

My X had affair with a client. Totally unprofessional, but yes. So he saw her through work. He frequently traveled for work.

most affairs take place at work or during work time or during business trips. that's why it is so hard to find out about it despite spending all of your free time together. if people would cheat during free time on the weekends or in the evenings, then all of the affairs would be uncovered pretty quickly.

The only time my DH went to the GYN with me was twice when I was already pregnant to see the sonagram.Other then that,he had to work on couldnt take off when I had to go.

I agree most affairs take place at work.I guess that makes me glad DH only works with guys :)

Benicebekind~we're just going with the flow.

Finedreams~My husband was young and very "uneducated".He wishes he was more diligent about using protection in the past.But that's the beauty of hindsight.

Personally,I would never want to have a child that wasnt wanted by both parties.I think raising kids is challenging enough without one of the parents not wanting to be a part of it.

Ceph,my friend did get away,but it took YEARS.

My X knew I was responsible. The type person who showed up for work on time, had dental checkups twice a year, etc. He knew I did what I said I would do.

After he left me, he had a vasectomey (I knew because he was still on my insurance).

I, too, have known women who have gotten pregnant "accidentally on purpose" . When I was a young newlywed many years ago, the neighbour next to me, who had gotten pregnant at 18, and the man had married her because of it, suggested to me that I should have an accident, if I wanted a child before my husband was ready. That was what she did, and she didnt even blush when she told me. Her husband had no idea though, that she had planned it all.

When my son was in college, He broke up with his long term gf. She then called him and said she was pregnant. She swore that she had taken several tests and they were all positive I bought an EPT and told my son to have her take the test with him there. Amazingly, it was false.......go figure.

There are women out there who will fake pregnancy or try to actively get pregnant by accident, in order to try to force a committment from a guy.

BUT...there are also men who, upon the disintegration of the relationship, and the grim reality that they will have to pay child support, start whining and complaining that they were duped, and the woman tricked them. Its as if they are trying to justify the fact that the child exists to the new gf.

WIth each of my sons, when they are of an age where they may be sexually active, I have repeatedly drummed in the caution to "Always Cape the Crusader"

You are a wise woman to teach your sons that kathline.

There are men who make this stuff up,and there ARE woman who DO fake a pregnancy or get pregnant on purpose as well.
To say either side is perfect and that it is impossible is either very nieve or very short sighted.
I know my husband is telling the truth.I have been a witness to everything these last eleven years.
I dont like the sort of feminist attitude that trys to paint all men as being the bad ones.Everyone has the capability to be deceitful.

If a man is deceitful about this subject, falsely claiming that he was duped, there is no real risk - the worse that can happen is that people don't believe him. If a woman were to get pregnant on purpose, there is a very good chance that she could end up as a single mother. I realize some women actually want to be single mothers, but getting pregnant on purpose in the hopes of getting your boyfriend to marry you is a very iffy proposition, and the consequences of having the ploy not be successful can be devastating to your life, your career, and the child. Obviously no one of either sex would be dishonest about this if they believed in the value of being honest with one's partner. However, in addition to the trait of dishonesty, women would have to be stupid or desperate, and men would only have to want to look good in the eyes of their new partner, friends, and family - and that latter trait describes pretty much everyone.

kkny and the otherside, how long were you each married, and how long have you each been divorced? Are your kids grown and out of the house or still at home? Have your ex's remarried or just dating? Would you take him back if he wanted to try again?

Married -- for about 27 years.

Divorced -- about 2

Child -- living with me

Ex -- his GF (that he had affair with) is livng with him. I would have thought they would have been married by now.

Take him back -- irrelevant question -- he wouldnt be interested.

it's not irrelevant. Why would you want him if he would do that to you after 27 years and raising his children? If it were me, I would, of course be hurt, but also get out there and do what makes ME happy. If you find the joy in life, you won't think about the pain so much. I stayed with someone for 7 years (most of my 20's) raising his kids through grade school. I did everything because their mom was completely out of the picture, she came to see them for a day or two a year. I love to travel, take road trips, go to concerts, and a few other things. The guy I was with only wanted to work and come home. He never wanted to do anything that I enjoyed. I gave up those things to raise his kids while thinking we would be married someday. After a few years, I realized he wasn't interested in getting married (to me) and I was almost 30. (yeah, I thought I was OLD) So, I left and he met and married someone else within a year. I beat myself up over it thinking that there was something wrong with me. The truth is, he didn't appreciate me and all I had to offer. I spent a few years working on myself. I lost weight, I did those things that he never wanted to do, I had FUN. Meanwhile, he and his new wife went and reversed her tubal ligation and had twins. (when we were together, I had wanted to have a family with him, but I also had a tubal ligation after my daughter was born) It took me about six years before I was ready to date again, and within six months, I met my husband. I'm now 38 and so much happier than I was at 25. My desire to have more children has changed and I would not want to go back to changing diapers again and getting up in the middle of the night. My ex's twins' are just beginning preschool or kindergarten and he's got a grandson older than them. I don't know if that's what he wanted, because the entire time we were together, he said he never wanted more kids.

I guess my point is that you can find happiness in your life if that's what you want. People change and it was a terrible thing for him to leave you after that long of a marriage. But, our lives don't follow one path, each of our decisions can change the entire direction of our existence and his decision to have an affair and leave his marriage is going to lead him off somewhere. Who knows if he will be happy with the ending. You are the only one that can control where your life goes and whether or not you will enjoy it or be miserable.

Two years is not long to feel the way you do, it took me at least two or three years to begin to make changes in my life to feel better about myself. The first thing I had to do was to let go of the past and accept that those years are gone and I can't get them back. You can live forever, regretting things you can't change, or you can learn from it and move on. I eventually decided to use it as a learning experience and move forward. If I had never met my husband, I think my life would still be much happier than when I was with my ex. And sometimes, it's not the ex that we miss, it's who we thought they were or what we wanted them to be. If you look at your ex for who he really is now, and not what he once was, would you really want him back?

Ima,

I have made changes (moved out) and I feel great about myself. I have a good job, active in civic and community boards, etc. None of this is inconsistent with protecting DD the best I can. And btw, I have to guess I was married (to one man) much longer than you.

Any FSM or SM that thinks an X is only motivated by bitterness is sadly mistaken. Every situation is different.

And if Xs GF resents what X spends on her, too bad. DD says X is beginning to resent his current financial situation (which is not bad, just not where he would have been if we had stayed married), now knowing that GF was going to quit work (or actually be laid off and not find new work) when she moved in with him. My ussual mantra to DD is this is more information than I need, and DD will be taken care of.

Married - about 21 years

Separated/divorced - 9 years

Some of my kids are grown, some are still at home.

My exH married the OW.

Yes, I would want him back, though some of our kids would not.

imamommy,

"If you look at your ex for who he really is now, and not what he once was, would you really want him back?"

Why would what he is now be the "real" him, whereas what he was for many years not be? In my exH's case, the person he is now is no more the real him than is someone who has been transformed by Alzheimer's into a paranoid, irritable old man the real man he used to be.

TOS, that's true but does he have Alzheimer's that caused him to cheat on you and leave you for the other woman? He made a choice to do that and over time, people change. Perhaps he changed from the man you fell in love with, who you believed would never cheat on you. But he evolved into someone that took you for granted and left you after 21 years and raising his children. The man you married may be the same man, but he made choices in his life that have changed who he is today, which is a man that, if he came back, you would probably have a hard, if not impossible time, trusting him. If you'd want to be with someone that you can't trust or doesn't respect you for everything you did for him, then that's your choice. As much as I love my husband and take our vows seriously, if after 20+ years and raising children of his, he not only had an affair in the marriage (which may or may not be forgiven), but left me for her and married her (which I would feel humiliated), I can say with 100% certainty that I would NOT want him back.

But to each her own I guess.

He doesn't have Alzheimer's, as far as I know, but he was (and probably still is) suffering from severe depression.

I think if someone comes to me contrite, says they know they made a mistake, and wants to improve, I am usually willing to deal with them. Depends on situation. Am I waiting for this to happen? No.

Would you take him back if he had a child with his wife/fling? Knowing how you feel about stepfamilies and not wanting to be involved in a relationship in order to avoid further conflict for your children, at least until your children are grown, would you be a stepmom to his and the other woman's child?

I dont think his having a child is possible, so even as much as I dont see him coming back, child is doubly unlikliy. But you are right that would add a lot to the mix.

I cant see me seriously involved with anyone else until any children are in college. At that point, SM is more a title than a function. IMHO.

I never had to think about it, because not only has my exH had a vasectomy, but they are both not all that far from 60.

My dad's friend became a father for the first time at 58. and it's not unheard of for a woman in her 50-60's to have a baby. My grandma had her last child when she was 57. She had a total of 13.

and vasectomy's can be reversed.

My X has made it clear that DD will be his only child. I doubt he will change his mind.

Of all the things I need to worry about, I think worrying about whether a vasectomized guy with six kids and a woman with several grown kids, both of whom are getting close to 60, might suddenly decide to have a baby is way, way, down on the bottom of the list.

I didn't post my question in order to cause you to worry. I thought it was a legitimate question to ask, considering both you and KKNY are solidly against stepfamilies. I guess I just wanted your opinion on what you would do if you loved a man and he had a child that was not your child, would you still re-marry him and become a stepmom and a stepfamily. I did not mean to offend or cause needless worry.

If a man had been divorced (final decree) and living apart from X at least 2 years, I would be willing to date. Not willing to live with him (with or without marriage) until his children (and mine) were in college.

Oh the ease which some judge others. First of all, I have healed from bitterness. It is a tough thing to overcome, but I did it. I know several people who were severely wronged and bitterness set in. Now, for the person to take their bitterness out is wrong. Carrying it is not. God made us all differently. Additionally, there are things that can culminate throughout life that can attribute to a person carrying this disease. What the person needs more than anything is a compassionate, loving, and firm hand to help them rid themselves of it. Our society is filled with convenience. Come on, if we're going to address the issue, let's not attack a pain and let's deal with the bigger problem. How often do you walk down the street and ignore the one who is hurting? The Bible reminds us not to forget the hungry and the poor. Now, I'm not hungry and poor. That was not my plight. Tell me that today, in our society, we have not turned the hungry and the poor over to a system so we can enjoy our stress free life. Folks, the cancer that is forming is a direct result of our own desire for ease and convenience. Get over it and move on, you say. I think that depends on how devastating and long lasting the wound is. My experience lasted 21 years. Do you really think I was going to come out of that without some kind of baggage? Do you really think I was capable of understanding what I was dealing with? I do now and have succeeded. Yes, I wanted help and got it. However, some of the responses here bite me. It's not just growing up. It's letting go. I know of a lady who is extremely successful. Everyday she goes to work and has a very successful career. However, at home she is a raging tyrant. Nobody knows what she is doing to her family. There is no physical abuse, but there is continual chaos. I am working with the children in that home, but there is really nothing I can do to change the situation. There are no "laws" being broken. It is emotional abuse, which is hard to prove. Do you think those kids will have some issues to work through once they are grown? Let's look at all of the angles and not attack. God bless.