no advice, but I can share a little experience.

My mother had 7 of 9 of those characteristics.

I've spent a great deal of my life trying to measure up to everything & everybody else...without drawing attention to myself & incurring wrath for taking the spotlight away from the star of the show.

Had I had information earlier, my life would have been different.

The effect of "shaking & in tears" doesn't stop when the shaking & tears stop; it goes on forever.

I wish the best for you & your son.

Thanks Sylvia -- And that's exactly why I'm asking. I know DS is being damaged to some extent -- How much? I'll probably never know.

I can see already how he's trying to be invisible, how he'll do whatever his father asks him to do because it's just too painful not to. (That included signing the papers his father had prepared stating that he wanted to live with his father.) I guess that's the main reason I'm so grateful to his StepMom for being a kind and decent person. If there's anyone providing balance and nurturing in that household, it's got to be her.

I examined my legal options pretty thoroughly before consenting to allow DS to live over there. And unfortunately, in our state, Ex's mental health diagnosis would not be considered a compelling enough reason to override a child's written statement, and there was just no way my son could stand up to his father enough to retract his statement, whether he wanted to or not. So whatever's happening over there is going to keep on happening until DS goes off to college in two more years.

Of course you should tell him. I actually think you should have told him at the time of diagnosis, in words he could understand at that age, so he could have grown up with the knowledge instead of wondering why his father was acting as he was. Do you have written evidence of the diagnosis, in case your son doesn't believe it?

DS was only two at the time of diagnosis -- possibly not even that old. It's highly unlikely our old therapist has any 14 year old records, and they never actually wrote the diagnosis on a piece of paper and handed it to me, though they were very explicit verbally. It's likely that the therapists we talked to 4 years ago independently reached that same conclusion, and they may have written something down - but again, they didn't hand it to me on a piece of paper, and since there's no blood test, even an 'official' diagnosis can be disputed. And of coure, like almost all NPD people, Ex doesn't believe he has it and would dispute any alleged 'defect' with every ounce of energy and passion he possesses.

In other words, if Ex ever finds out I told DS Ex has NPD, he would explode and do terrible things. (At the moment, we actually have a functional detante.) I did tell StepMom before she married him, but I'm sure she questioned my motives. Wonder if she even remembers? And/or if she's suffering from the same things he did to me.

DS has seen enough that if I have him read a book about NPD, I doubt he'll have trouble believing it. But I also need to be concerned that he would tell his father what I said or did, or change his own behavior in ways that backfire - and I'm not comfortable asking him to keep it a secret.

If you're afraid of repercussions, maybe someone who is not his mom can speak to your son:

Narcissists aren't nearly as likely to blow up at an outsider over whom they have no power & in front of whom they want to appear gracious & wonderful.

As things stand, your son is living with an abuser, & his mother knows he's living with an abuser & is doing nothing to help him.

I realize the position you're in, but I resented my father for years for not intervening when my mother terrorized & physically abused me.

I finally realized, after he died, that he was her first victim, but it was too late.

A hard truth Sylvia...
So the person he's living with most of the time is a full-time narcissist, and part-time abuser.

But since DS is bascially a pretty good kid, thereby reflecting well on the narcissist, actual 'abuse' is pretty rare. And even that is pretty 'gray zone' -- verbal rebukes that I consider harsh or more 'personal' than 'problem-focused'. Mostly though, it's just a lifestyle where the whole household revolves around the father, his needs and wants. And since one of the key things Ex 'needs' at this point is for DS to get admitted to a prestigious college, that's the primary focus. (Can anyone say pressure?)

Of course, I'd like DS to do well on his college boards and get into the school of his choice too. (I'm less into the 'prestige' than the 'fit' for DS, but do want Ex to pay for half, which he may not do if the college isn't "good enough.") I also don't want to contribute to the pressure, but at the same time, some extra effort at this time will pay big dividends. And the last thing I'd want to do is throw DS into an emotional tailspin that, because of its poor timing, causes long-lasting repercussions.

Hi Sweeby,

You are in a very, very tough spot. Have you talked to a counselor about how to handle this with your son?

I think it is really important to know that it will really hurt your son, to the core of his being, when he learns his Dad has NPD and when he comes to an understanding of what this means.

He won't argue with the diagnosis because he most likely already knows something is wrong with his Dad, but learning this will take away any hope he ever had for his Dad.

The NPD diagnosis of a loved one is sort of a death sentence, because there is no hope for a future where things might get better. There is only a dead feeling of knowing that there was never any real love and that it was all an illusion. And to have a parent with NPD, that takes away a piece of your very soul.

It is better, in my opinion, for him to know about this now than to live years of his life trying to be what his father want him to be because he will have been set up for failure.

He'll never be able to maintain good status with his Dad for the long term and then Dad will either be abusive to try to control him or Dad will totally reject him. One or the other. No happy endings with a parent with NPD.

I do think it is very important as to how he is told, though and perhaps be given the opportunity to talk to a counselor about his feelings.

I wish you the best.

Wow -- The overwhelming consensus seems to be that I need to tell him. How much, do you think, and when?

Should I use the diagnosis 'NPD' -- or just explain the characteristics of the disorder? Should I wait until Ex has done something awful? Or when sailing is smooth? Wait until after high school when DS is setting off for college?

I have explained the reasons behind some of Ex's behaviors, so it's not like DS is totally in the dark. But I haven't gone 'clinical' because that seemed too much like 'poisoning' DS against his father, and that's really not what I want. (Took me a while to be able to say that honestly.)

If your ex were an alcoholic, would you be tormenting yourself over whether to use the word when talking to your son?

Would you worry about poisoning him against his father?

No, you'd say,
"Son, your father is an alcoholic.
Don't get in the car with him when he's been drinking, & if he's in a rage, get away from him."

Tell him right now, & use the words.

It's a tremendous, tremendous relief to know that the turmoil & dread you feel isn't normal & that it isn't your fault,
that there *is* a real, identifiable problem, not just a personality conflict,

that you aren't a piece of totally inadequate carp who doesn't deserve to live if you don't reflect glory on another person 24 hours of every day,

that credit for your achievements belongs to you & not to your parent,

& *that you are not the only one*; it isn't just you.

It's nicer if you can tell him when things are calm, but tell him right away regardless of whatever fit his father is throwing.

"I haven't gone 'clinical' because that seemed too much like 'poisoning' DS against his father, and that's really not what I want. (Took me a while to be able to say that honestly.)"

but this isn't the same as tattling to a child about a husband who betrayed you in some way.

It's about arming your son against abuse.

I guarantee that anyone who grows up with a narcissistic parent has low self-esteem, & if that person has no knowledge of what narcissism is, he has no way to protect himself against further battering of his emotions & his sense of self.

By not telling your son that his father has this massive personality disorder, you are not only failing to protect your son, you are protecting & enabling his father.

...that writing & re-writing that post took me an hour or so & my heart is beating fast from the anxiety.

I've lived away from my mother for 30 years, & she's dead now.

This is the kind of lasting effect this kind of "parent" has on a person.

Just for entertainment/comic relief, here's a true story:

I used to say my mother had to be the star of every show, & therefore I never had been able to star in my own.

When my aunts gave me a wedding shower back in the 1970's, they scheduled it late on a weekday afternoon to accomodate everyone's work schedule & told everyone it was casual dress.

They all wore their little print housedresses (my father's sisters were all a bunch older than he was), & I came straight from work in my plain slacks & blouse.

My mother waltzed in, making a movie star entrance, in a *white* crepe after-five pantsuit.

with an orchid corsage.

She graciously thanked everyone who told her how wonderful she looked, much as though she were accepting an Oscar.

I knew better than to say anything to her about it, but I was so afraid that she'd upstage me at my own wedding that I asked one of my aunts to ask her not to wear that thing at the wedding.

One frustrating thing about narcissists is that they are so charming to people they want to impress & people over whom they have no control.

My aunt sort of chuckled at my concerns, saying that my mother just wore the white pantsuit to look nice but that she knew not to wear white at someone else's wedding...

but my aunt, thank goodness, promised to remind her.

& she evidently did;
my mother came to the wedding in a more subdued outfit & wore a sour expression during the whole thing.

I agree with Sylvia. I think it will be a relief to your son to understand finally why his dad is/does/says all the crap that a child of an NPD deals with. He is old enough. If you have the resources and are comfortable with it, I would recommend the advice of a therapist who understands NPD and how it affects their children.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I believe my step-daughters mother suffers from NPD. I see how this affects my sd and my heart aches for her. She is only 14, but the damage began at birth and will continue. I pray that she will some day be able to understand and live a healthy life in spite of her being raised by an NPD parent. I really want to get her in therapy. I think she needs someone to confide in that can direct her in a healthy manor to deal with this parent or direct us to take actions to remove her from the harm.

Some of you bms might be horrified by what I just wrote. Some of you bms and sms will understand...