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helenar_gw

Help with Wedding needed

helenar
16 years ago

Not mine, FSD 25.

I have been with her dad for about 5 years. Living with him for 2. When BM (bi**h mom) moved out, she took SD (now 16) and SD25 was at college. BM moved to next time over (smaller town, smaller house, but oh so exclusive schools,e tc). Now SD25 is getting married to young man from that town. BM is well established, has put her career in first place, and active in local politics, so she knows everyone, etc.

So these are the plans right now. Future Inlaws of SD25 and BM will pay for all wedding costs (not certain how they are splitting) except for costs of any of FDHs freinds (they will pay for FDH relatives, not many), POROVIDED I sit in back in church. BM will sit in front wiht her family. FDH can either sit at far side or first row, or in second row on aisle. If he sits in second row, his relatives wll be with him, but not me.

At reception, BM will sit at a table next to the grooms family, with her immediate family and friends. If FDH brings me, we have to sit at a table way off to the side, in back.

What do you people think? I have been with him for 5 years, and this is his DDs wedding.

Comments (59)

  • sweeby
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Since your intended was actually still married to BioMom when you two started your affair, I'd say you're lucky to be allowed to attend at all. No matter how "dead" their marriage was, it was still alive on paper, and as far as the ettiquette books go, they were still married. That gives them wide lattitude to treat you badly without much blame.

    IMO, the best tactic for you would be to fade into the background, dress conservatively, behave graciously, and to say only kind things about the bride, the groom, the wedding as a whole, and BioMom in particular. Any comments about her weight, her age, her having 'let herself go', or her 'lack of good taste' would completely backfire on you with this audience.

    If there's a friend of yours who's also close to FDH and/or the bride, it would be wonderful if that person could keep you company at the wedding and reception so any slights will be less obvious.

  • helenar
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    FDH doesnt have many friends, X drove them away. He used to have close friends at work, but between their wives being friends with X and him being semi-retired, there wont be many at the wedding. His brother and his GF, who is also a cow, are too busy trying to curry favor with the FSDs or the X. Everyone is soo afraid they will never see any of FSDs future children.

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  • kkny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is another thread that is interesting to me. It seems to me that the SMs think the "mom" in there title puts them on par with the mother. It doesnt. SMs are wife of Dad, not a mom. It seems that OP thinks -- OH I have the guy, I get everything of his.

    Frankly, if I were the mom here, I would talk to X. I would say, how would you feel if this young man cheated on your DD? And do you think OP should be invited at all?

  • mlly
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi all - any recent new readers of this forum need to go back and read Helenar's previous posts before they form an opinion. Pretty interesting

    Refer to SylviaTexas's post on how to read what someone has posted before

  • june0000
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Another thing to consider is that Helenar is not married to this man, and they are not engaged. She has no relationship to the future bride.

    She is a live-in girlfriend, who was TOW. I think the polite thing to do is for her to decline attending the wedding, send a very nice gift and keep a low profile and stay out of it.

    The fact that she is invited at all says a lot about the bride-to-be and her mother. Helenar says she has much better taste than Biomom, but Biomom has much more class.

    I am a SM to adult daughters but to be honest, I don't know where Helenar is coming from. Biomom is paying for part of the wedding. Helenar's boyfriend is not and certainly Helenar is not paying for anything. I don't think she has a job.

    In any event, Helenar should be happy that she was even invited, given all of the circumstances.

  • sweeby
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well said June.

    IMO, taste applies to behavior even more than to fashion and consumer items and referring to BioMom and brother's GF as "cows" shows an appalling lack thereof. Class is not something you can buy at Neimann Marcus with SugarDaddy's credit cards.

    It's very possible that most(all?) of your guy's former friends formed their own opinions of his behavior and dropped him with no help or influence from BioMom needed. If BioMom was really so awful and your guy's behavior was so "understandable," then more people would be understanding about it.

  • june0000
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Agree, Sweeby. The comment about the "cows" was classless.

    A little insight into Helenar's thought process from a few months ago (in giving advice to a SD):

    "Get real. Accept that once dad remarries, the kids from the first marriage get the shaft. That is a fact of life, and the sooner you accept it, the better off you will be. Didnt you see Cinderella. Concentrate on making your own way in the world -- get a job and a husband".

    Get a job and get a husband? Helenar? I don't think you have either.

  • notwicked
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi All -
    I can understand why this thread has gotten so spiteful but let's remember that each of us have our own road to hoe and life is not easy. Through support and encouragement of right behavior, we can all grow into better selves.

    Being that it appears that helenar was TOW, I would agree with most of you that it would be best if she didn't attend the wedding at all. Like one poster wrote, "send a nice gift" and then stay home.

    There are times when we can remedy our past lives and earn forgiveness from those we have wronged and then there are times when that just "ain't gonna happen". Wisdom is in learning the difference between these two situations.

    Helenar, I hope you will consider not attending this wedding. If you choose to attend, it will keep the animosity growing against you within FDH's family, and quite possibly, in FDH's heart as well.

    Let's think about FDH and his daughter for a moment here. FDH wants to attend his daughter's wedding - it is (hopefully) a once-in-a-lifetime event. FSD wants her dad there to walk her down the aisle. Allow them to have this moment in time. You have the opportunity to be gracious here. Please consider taking it. You will feel better about yourself in the long run for doing the right thing :))

  • newgardenelf
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    When DH and I married stepMIL and her children were invited and behaved poorly making little comments and snickering. The only thing it got them was excluded from other family weddings and functions. stepMIL has had to work VERY hard to get back into good graces and still is working with some family and that all happened four years ago.

    I agree- take FDIL out to a nice lunch before the wedding, give her a nice gift, and explain that you wish her well but since it's her day you will not attend. That will go along way toward developing a relationship. Plus honestly why would you want to put yourself in the drama if you go? I've had family weddings that I declined and sent a gift to because I just didn't want to waste a day with people I don't care for anyway.

  • kkny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Notwicked

    "There are times when we can remedy our past lives and earn forgiveness from those we have wronged and then there are times when that just "ain't gonna happen". "

    How do you suggest someone EARN forgiveness for having had affair with their dad and dad leaving the mom?

  • gellchom
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh, wow --
    I just took mlly's advice and read some of helenar's old posts.
    Yikes!
    helenar, whoever you are and however much, if any, of what you post is true, I wish you good luck; I think you are going to need it. But I think it's a waste of time to share advice on this situation. If this is all for real, it's hopeless anyway.

  • notwicked
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi kkny -

    My whole point in my writing that is b/c I doubt helenar will EVER have the opportunity to make amends for her past behavior and that is why I suggested that she not attend the wedding and take the chance that the situation will worsen between the SK and BM.

    As for your general question of "how do you suggest someone EARN forgiveness for having had an affair with their dad leaving the mom?"....my answer to this is:

    TOW can step up and make an apology to the others who were involved in her actions, i.e. the SKs and BM - if they will even give her the chance.

    Chances are slim to none that her apology will be accepted; however, please keep in mind that over time some people change to where the past no longer holds them in bondage as if the situation was still occurring. When this happens, they are able to accept an apology from the offender and move forward, working for the good of themselves as well as all children involved.

    I felt extremely betrayed when my XH ran off with a younger gal from work while we were still married. Since I was 7 years older than my XH and the new gal was 7 years younger than him, I felt a double-whammy over this situation! I also held 100% trust in my XH that he would NEVER in a million years betray me so I was stunned when this happened.

    Upon working on the issue of my feelings of betrayal through a weekly counseling session along with dialoguing with my XH (privately) on and off over the ensuing year, I was able to come to terms with the reality of the situation and understand the part I played in the failure of our 18 year marriage.

    I eventually came to accept that my XH wasn't totally to blame for the demise, nor was the younger gal totally to blame for breaking up our marriage. I also was my share of the blame in this situation and accepted it, forgiving myself and them in the process.

    Today, I have moved on in my life and found a new love and marriage which totally suits the person I have become. I hold no regrets that my last marriage did not work out and because of this freedom, I would have no problem interacting with my XH, his wife, and their two small children if I were to see them. I only wish for him the same happiness that I have found with my current DH.

    I'm sorry I've ranted on here when your question was put so succinctly. I hope I have answered it - although I know that my answer may not be the same as yours or someone else's.

    Each of us must carry our own cross daily and only individually can we decide which burdens to lay aside and which to continue carrying.

    As for myself, I choose to carry only the ones which are absolutely necessary and having said that, others must choose for themselves which ones they wish to carry and which ones they want to lay down.

    Life is always full of choices and I am so grateful and humbled that we're allowed to make our own.

  • jeri
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    NotWicked wow  cool journey sincere congratulationsÂ

    May I ask?

    Upon working on the issue of my feelings of betrayal through a weekly counseling session along with dialoguing with my XH (privately) on and off over the ensuing year, I was able to come to terms with the reality of the situation and understand the part I played in the failure of our 18 year marriage.

    Were there things you didnÂt see? Had he tried to tell you what was wrong and you were not listening? If you had seen these things earlier  could the marriage have been saved? It sounds like the two of you didnÂt have kids  is that correct?

    DonÂt feel the need to answer if you donÂt want! :-)

  • justnotmartha
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Notwicked - I am in awe. You took the horrible and grew from it rather than let it overtake you and become who you are.

    My hats off to you.

  • starr
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    notwicked - wow, that was a great post. Your personal growth is inspiring.

  • quirk
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "How do you suggest someone EARN forgiveness for having had affair with their dad and dad leaving the mom"

    Can any one of you honestly say that never in your life have you done something that was or could have been unforgivable?

    For example, in my mispent youth, I drank and drove-- a lot. I'm lucky, I never hurt myself or anyone else, but I could have potentially killed someone. Killing someone I think would qualify as worse than having an affair (which I haven't done) and it's no real tribute to me or my character that I didn't, just dumb luck. I am a more responsible person now, and generally prefer to be judged on who I have become and not my past mistakes. Of course if I had killed or severely injured someone else I would not have the **right** to be forgiven by them or their families. But hypothetically lets say the person I hurt or killed was one of my brothers; his family is also my own family. Forgiveness might still be impossible; but it might also be both possible and desirable for the sake of holding the family together, particularly if I am now changed and behaving in a responsible manner with care for other people. It can happen, and sometimes it's better if it does.

    Back to the actual topic at hand. Yes, my dad cheated on my mom. No, I do not approve of cheating, I do not think it is acceptable or justifiable behavior, and of course I love my mom and don't think very highly of someone who treats her badly. However, my dad is in every other way a pretty good person and a good father and a good grandfather to my nieces and nephews. Should my brothers and I really refuse to forgive him? He is after all our dad.

    How would that work, anyway? Should we have spent the rest of our childhood angry and resentful until we turned 18 and then cut him out of our lives for something he did when I was 12 (and my youngest brother was a toddler)? In what way would that have been in our best interests?

    No, the woman he cheated with is not the same woman who became my stepmom. But what if she were? If my dad (who is the one who was actually married with a family and all the responsibilities that come with it) can be forgiven, why shouldn't she? If she were also in every other way a good person, a good wife to my dad, and a good stepmother to me and my brothers, should I really refuse to forgive her or would it be better if I could learn to see her as a whole person, not just the other woman, and get to know her, judge her, develop a relationship with her in the entire context of who she is rather than the one unforgivable thing she did?

    (no, i don't know the actual woman and have no particular feelings one way or another if I were to meet her. my dad is responsible for his own actions, and those are well in the past)

    Unless you know more about the people involved than they did one terrible thing (have an affair), I don't think you can really say they should never be forgiven. If a stepmom treats the children well, loves them, cares for them, etc etc then she can and should be judged on all of those subsequent actions in addition to the initial one of having the affair. Yes, the bad things we do matter, and the people we hurt matter. But. We are all more than our worst mistake, and I expect we would all like to be judged on more than our worst mistake.

    Now, for the record, calling your stepdaughter's mother a fat cow is a subsequent action that doesn't exactly lend itself to encouraging forgiveness or reevaluating the first judgement, but kkny asked a more generic question about how it could ever be possible. Yes, it is possible, and I believe in some cases it can be deserved.

  • kkny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My question was with the word earn. People can forgive others for a number of reasons. But how OP is supposed to earn it -- I would like to hear.

    What I cant fathom is the same SMs here who preach personal responibility, and that stepchildren must bear the consequences of their actions do not see that as applying to an adult.

    I dont think OP wants forgiveness. I think she wants a spot of honor at the wedding. It may be that the timing is just bad, and she might be looking for forgiveness but in the meantime this wedding popped up.

  • fleurs_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    helenar,

    A few years ago, DH's oldest daughter got married. I had been in her life for 14 years by that time and had treated her her just as well as i treated DH's other two children.

    However, from the word go,when she was 9 yrs old this SD did not like me. I did my best to be nice, polite and kind towards her.

    During all the preparations of her wedding, she never asked me once to participate in this or that except for to look into hotel arrangements for outside guests. I found the hotel and gave her all the information. The people stayed at the hotel i found.

    During the weeks before the wedding, i mentioned to DH that his daughter had never said a word to me about the sitting arrangements and much less about a corsage. I finally asked this SD where she intended to sit me at the reception. SHe replied : with my father. That's it! That's all. I didn't know if it was at a main table for what. We were, just like the other people there, that is, her mother, DH's ex in laws, etc. sitting off at a side from the main wedding table. DH did come up and say a small speach. SD and new hubby also did one but never ever thanked her father and i for anything.

    The day of the wedding, when we arrived at the reception, the place where we were told we would sit during the ceremony, was no longer the place we had been indicated. I couldn't believe it. We were now placed behind DH's ex inlaws and behind his ex-wife and placed beside the bride's aunt...in the second row. DH was not impressed. Apparently, SD had changed her mind in regards to the sitting arrangement that morning and i guess had forgotten to tell her father and i that we would no longer be in the front seats, front row. Oh well! I wasn't suprised!

    When we arrived at the reception, DH and i noticed that everybody and anybody had a corsage...but not me! DH had one but not me. THAT HURT! DH even noticed that i was hurt and for once,,,,,he did admit that that was not right of his daughter to have done that. But do you think he ever told her about it! NOPE!

    DH knew months ahead that this wedding was making me nervous and knew that i could very well make a scene at the reception. He begged me not to do anything and i promised him i wouldn't for one and one reason only. his was HIS DAUGHTER'S DAY...and no matter what i was not going to ruin it for her!

    From that day on, i never set foot in this SD's home She begged me for years to go and visit them and i always refused. I wonder why!!!!

    DH asked me for years why i wouldn't do a five hour trip to see his oldest daughter. I would always find an excuse not to go until one day i told DH...you better stop asking me that question if you don't want to be hurt. He continued. I finally said : your daughter treated me like s... the day of her wedding and you have never had the guts to talked to her about this and about how you felt about her attitude towards me and how my feelings were hurt, especially that she has never to this day thanked me for the wedding gift we got her and for which we had to borrow for!!!

    In my heart, this SD told me exactly where i stood in her life on the most important day of her life.

    Now, when i read your post, i think, knowing what i know today about weddings and SD....i wouldn'T even go to my DH's or fiancé's daughter's wedding if i was not to be treated with respect. I don't care if you are married or not to this girl's father. You have been in his life long enough to be treated with respect.

    Keep on posting and good luck.

  • quirk
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Earn by doing what I said. By becoming a better person. By, going forward, treating other people, and especially the ones you hurt by your intial action, in a caring, thoughtful, respectful manner. By doing enough good things that the bad one becomes less and less relevant over time.

    I think you are right that the OP doesn't want forgiveness or even thinks or wants to admit she has done anything wrong. My answer was to the generic wording of your question, how can SOMEONE (you didn't say OP) earn forgiveness. And yes, I think you can earn forgiveness by subsequently doing good things for the people you hurt. The worse the thing to be forgiven, the more good things it takes to earn it, but I think earn is an appropriate description of what I mean. I'm not talking about forgiving someone who didn't follow up with the good actions, so it's not that you're forgiving only out of the goodness of your heart (also possible, but not what I'm talking about), you're forgiving *because* they are behaving in a better way which deserves forgiveness. I think that qualifies as "earn".

  • kkny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Fleurs, I thought that if divorced parents (both of them) dont want to sit togethor, at the church, the MOB has priorty and she and her relatives get the first, or first two rows, if necesssary, and FOB and SM go in second or later rows.

    Does anyone else have thoughts?

  • kkny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And fleurs, did I read your post too quickly. You said all SD would say as to seating would be that you would be with your DH. And you were.

  • quirk
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ... I suppose I wasn't entirely clear I was talking about earning forgiveness rather than being granted it because you're family. I did want to make the point that we can be forgiven for some pretty bad things and it can be better to keep an open mind to the possibility, and even more so when you're talking about family. But I did also mean that (talking about an other woman turned stepmom) it would be "earned" by her actually caring for the kids, treating them well, and being a good stepmother to them.

  • wrychoice1
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    First to Not Wicked,

    I want to acknowledge my admiration and respect for you in not only the difficult emotional journey you have had but also for your willingness to share it with us. Thank you.

    It seems to me that in your journey, you ultimately opted not to be a victim. Sometimes I think when something traumatic occurs in our lives the first thing to go is any sense of control over our experience. One way to regain some sense of control is to examine what role we played in the traumatic experience, accept reposnsibility for our contribution, and make changes. It is part of our growth and development as human beings. I think taking ownership helps us feel more in control and less victimized. I commend your courage and again thank you for sharing.

    Quirk, I agree with your thoughts about earning forgiveness. A couple thougths of my own...the first is the Biblical story of the adulteress and Jesus's admonition to her tormentors about those without sin casting the first stone. Often, we forget the remainder of the parable which is Jesus's directive to the woman which was "Now, go and sin no more." I think the lesson here not only is "'judge not lest ye be judged," but also "atone for your sins." Atone, to make amends. I read an article once on the concept of forgiveness. The authors contended that forgiveness is a process, not an event. Forgiveness is not something you decide to do one day; it occurs over time. The authors also wrote in the article about the concepts of remorse and reconciliation. They posed the following questions: can forgiveness be extended in the absence of remorse? and, can remorse be experienced in the absence of forgiveness? Their response to both questions was yes. Clearly, one can feel much regret and guilt for something they have done that has injured another even if the person(s) harmed refuses to or is incapable of forgiving them. Obviously, one can extend forgiveness to another for hurting them even if the person(s) causing the harm feel not one iota of regret.

    So, both remorse and forgiveness can exist independently of the other.

    However, the authors' contention is that for genuine reconciliation to occur, both remorse and forgiveness must be present. I think Not Wicked is right on in her post where she suggests that the first step toward any sort of reconciliation in the scenarios being discussed in this thread is for the offender(s) to accept responsibility for the actions they have engaged in that have harmed others. They have to experience genuine remorse for the hurt they have contributed to and, after communicating their remorse to those injured, should ask for forgiveness. Forgiveness may never be gained; however, the offender(s) can and should continue to atone for, make amends for their actions through the choices they make going forward. It is their responsibility, their contribution to this process of getting to forgiveness and, ultimately, genuine reconciliation.

  • kkny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Fleur

    I am still curious re your wedding seating (although my DD wont get married for years). What seating did you think would be correct?

  • Ashley
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That's a great question kkny...I'm planning my wedding and my Fiance and I both have divorced parents with new spouses/boyfriends. How do you put it together so that everybody is happy?

    Also, with respect to the helenar issue only, after reading the posts she has written, I have no sympathy at all for her or her situation. She has posted that once a child is 18, the child should no longer expect to be part of her father's life. If I were her FSD, I would not have even invited her to my wedding. She sounds vicious. Who would want somebody so toxic at their wedding? Especially since her Dad is not helping to pay for the wedding.

    Why is her Father not helping her pay for the wedding anyway?

  • wrychoice1
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Most etiquette books address these issues. I would encourage you to reference them. I believe that KKNY is correct that in most etiquette books, the MOB would be seated in the first row; the FOB would be behind her in either the second or third row. This would also hold for the groom's side: MOG in front row with FOG behind in either row 2 or 3. I don't recall specifics but I think the third row for fathers applies if the mothers of the bride and groom have surviving parents themselves.

    With respect to trying to make everyone happy, I think most wedding planners would suggest talking to all interested parties as early in the process as possible. Hopefully, the adults would behave with some maturity and honor your & your future spouse's wishes about how you would like for your day to be. You can discuss all of these issues with everyone involved from the budget and who is going to contribute what, to the rehearsal dinner, to the ceremony and who sits where, who gets a corsage & who doesn't, who is in the receiving line (if you have one at all) to who sits where at the reception.

    Whatever you do & however you handle it, I hope the adults in your life will set aside any animosity they may feel for others and behave in a way that does not have you feeling like you are in the middle, that in making choices, you do not feel as if you are being disloyal to anyone.

    It is your & your future husband's wedding. Be true to yourselves and let everyone else deal with it.

  • fleurs_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    KKny says :
    "Fleur I am still curious re your wedding seating (although my DD wont get married for years). What seating did you think would be correct? "

    The seating i would have found correct is to have DH or the bride's father sitting right in front with his ex and I should have been sitting right next to DH also. Remember, i had been in this girls's life for 14 yrs. I was paying part of HER wedding the same way the ex wife was!

    The wedding did not take place in a church. It was a civil ceremony which means it was in a kind of a reception hall that she had decorated with her futur husband and friends.
    This being said, there would have been no problems putting more seats in the front row.

    I was kind of upset at the sitting arrangement but really i was much more sorry for my DH. After walking his daughter up the aisle, he had to go and sit in the row behind his ex and his ex-inlaws. That is what i found sad.

    I think it is really hurtful and not to any step children's advantage to ignore and not to want their father's or mother's spouse to be part of any celebration, especially if the relationshipo between the father and the spouse or the mother and her spouse is serious.

    This SD had two children with the man she married before actually getting married. I was present at the birth of the first child but not the second one because SD lived in another city and none of us were with her. Funny how she didn't ignore me when this child was born, how she didn't insist that her mother be there first, etc. etc. Actually, we were all in the the hospital room together to see the baby when it was time to see the baby.

    Today, this SD is divorced and back living at the ex's house.
    I knew the day of her wedding that it wouldn't last. Actually felt sorry for her husband.

    After my own parents separated, my mother met a man for 14 years. We considered him our true friend and we were always very polite towards him and respectful. The day he died it was just like losing my real father. My mom and him were never married and never lived together. My point is step-children should be polite and respectful to their parents spouse when these spouses are polite and respectful towards them as a step child.

    I think it is absolutely ridicous all this story and supposed étiquette of having the MOB sit here, and the FOB sit there, if the parents are divorced. Give me a break with the rules and etiquette! I understand it is a day for the bride, but still, i think that on that day, the bride should think about all those who love her and want the best for her and who contributed to the WEDDING!

    Keep posting.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  • kkny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well we havent heard back from fleur or OP lately. I still dont see what Fleur's SD did that was so unforgivable. SD had DH and SM sit in second row at church. SD had DH at a seperate table at reception, but so was her mother-- neither was at the main table. The only thing I would have suggested was if "everyone" was getting corsages, SD probably should have gotten one for SM (although not as large as one for moms/gmoms)

    As to SD not talking to her much before the wedding, I would have to know more about the relationship to say anything, but from the way Fleur carries on about the seating, it leads one to question.

  • kkny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Fleur, obviously I posted at about the same time as you.

    I am not certain it matters whether the ceremony is at a church, civil or whatever, I think the MOB gets to sit in front row. Ok, as one of the moms who clearly doesnt have as much money as her X, I wouldnt like it that just cuz dad has more money, he and SM (SM --aaahh) sit in front with me.

    Can't you understand that mom might not want to sit with Dad, especially with SM there?

    I am sorry your SDs marriage didnt work. I do think statistically children of divorce have a tougher time.

  • notwicked
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi jeri -

    Thank you for your post. I'll be happy to answer your questions to the best of my ability.

    To begin with, I married at 19 and had two sons. My first DH and I were married 10 years and then divorced - fairly amicably.

    My second DH and I had no children together. We wanted them and we tried but to no avail. As it turns out, I was going through an early natural menopause but the doctors were unable to confirm this for the first few years of our marriage. There was much frustration and sadness on our part over this situation. DH & I had custody of my two young sons from the ages of 3 & 6 and he was a good SD over the ensuing 18 years of our marriage.

    Together we worked well with my sons' father & his new wife and presented a united front to the kids - they were not allowed to play one parent against the other. Our house rules were very similar. To this day, whenever I see my sons' father & his wife at family gatherings we always enjoy visiting together. We also enjoy the five young grandchildren that we have in common through our two sons.

    I'm sorry I digressed there.....Yes, to answer your other question about seeing the signs, I did. For about the last five years we were together, there was a lot of bickering about finances, the boys, vacations, work schedules, etc. You name it. On top of this, we were both strong-willed people to boot! But we did have an unusual emotional closeness to our relationship and we totally trusted one another.

    We talked about going to counseling but he wasn't willing - he didn't think anything was wrong with him. I, on the other hand, read every self-help book I could lay my hands on!

    Bottomline is that we were two nice people who weren't a good match. Neither one of us had really been happy in our marriage for approximately 5-7 years. One of us would try harder than the other one for awhile and then we'd change sides and the other one would try harder for awhile. Neither one of us wanted to fail in this marriage.

    As he approached the age of 40, he realized he didn't want to live the rest of his life like we had been living BUT.....HE HANDLED THINGS THE WRONG WAY! Instead of continuing to work on things in our marriage, he became attracted to a young gal at work and I had no clue they were seeing one another.

    When I found out, I was devastated and enraged! That's why it took me a year and a half to work things out in my own mind. You can bet that during that time, I was MISERABLE! I was the biggest "victim" anyone had ever seen. I carried my baggage with me 24/7 and I actually lost some good friends throughout this ordeal b/c I had become so selfish - everything was about ME and what my X had done to ME and what a TERRIBLE person he was - and HER too! And yes, as soon as he separated from me, they moved in together. Consequently, they have had two beautiful children together, which is what he wanted all along. However, I have picked up from him (we email about once per year) that his marriage constitutes less happiness in his life than the two children have brought him and he and his DW have their own issues to work through. No matter who we're with, there is always work to do :))

    I've always been a person who emotionalizes in the moment but also has the capacity (in quiet moments) to look at the big picture and sincerely want to do what is right. I knew I didn't like who I had become through this ordeal and I wanted to change. But change for the better can only happen when we become motivated to change into a happier and healthier person.

    I hope this helps to answer some of your questions. I sincerely hope my story might help someone who is sitting on the fence between seeking peace or holding on to past negative baggage.

    When we let the baggage go, we allow Life to bring positive people and situations into our lives and we are enabled to embrace and enjoy them. Afterwards, we look back and wonder: WHY DID I HOLD ON SO LONG TO THE NEGATIVE?

  • jeri
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    NotWicked another great post. Thank-you. And again congratulations. Your story is an inspiration

    No matter who we're with, there is always work to do

    My motto is: "It is OK to make mistakes as long as you learn from them". I fervently hope to someday over hear my daughter telling a friend "My mom always says" :-)

    I am 49 and on my second (and last) marriage. The young are so naïve I know I was. But I have learned many lessons along the way such as: 1) I can not change another person. 2) No matter who were with, there is always work to do. 3) The grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence. 4) Happiness comes from within.

    There are many more lessons of course these just came to mind at this time.

    :-)

  • notwicked
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi All -

    If the bio-parents will stop competing, the SKs will get some relief of feeling caught between the two.

    As the adults to these children, we must be the ones to act mature.

    In the big picture of Life, is it really that important where you sat at the wedding or reception?

    Just curious.....

  • kkny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Notwicked,

    I dont understand why you say if the bioparents will stop competing. All I see here is SM v. mom.

    I am truly glad you have moved on, but I do have to suggest that your most recent divorce, where you said X handled it poorly, was not quite the same as mine and TOSs in that we were divorcing the father of our children. I still commend you for moving on.

    I think that there should be no inconsistency in "moving on" and making certain that DD has finanical advantages. The idea that I should be her primary financial provider, or if not SM should be accorded more mother status I find ludicrous.

  • fleurs_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    KKny , you say :
    I am not certain it matters whether the ceremony is at a church, civil or whatever, I think the MOB gets to sit in front row".

    KKny, lets just say that we will agree to disagree on this subject. We are in 2007. I think it is absolutely stupid and outrageous to make a stand as to where the Mom should sit in comparison to where the father should sit on the day of the wedding if the parents are divorced.

    Give me a break. Why should the mother have priority if the father was involved in that's child life just as much as the mother was or is!!!Both parents love this child so why should the bride to be give priority to one parent over the other??????????????

    And you know what, all of this wedding thing, i really went because of DH and i am sorry i went. It just made me look at this SD in a different way since then. I know now where i officially stand in her life. As a matter of fact, last week it was my birthday. She never called me nor did she ask her two young daughters to call me except she really makes sure her two young daughters get gifts from both her father and I when it is their birthday or when its christmas. This SD did not call me for my birthday for the last 18 yrs as a matter of fact.

    Up until three years ago, i always gave her a present and a birthday card. I stopped three years ago. This year, i was stuck having to be there when it was her birthday. Her birthday is like a couple of days ahead of my second SD"s birthday. So, hubby wanted them all at our house to celebrate their birthday together. Yuk. I hated every single minute of the celebration. I didn't even cook. Called for pizza and bought a cake. I promise myself next year, i will treat her the same way she has treated me for my birthday this year. I don't think i am being childish. It's just that i am sick and tired of seeing woman in their late 20's still acting like they are 12. Grow up.

    One more note, knowing what i know today of step children, believe me, if i had to go back 18 yrs., i would not get involved with a man who has children. For my sake, for his sake and for the children's sake.Thank you!

    Keep posting.

  • kkny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Fleurs?

    Did the children live with their Dad or was it more like EOW? Do you have any children of your own?

  • wrychoice1
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I understand your pain...scroll up and read my post about not one but two weddings. Do I think it is "fair" that fathers are relegated to stting behind mothers? No. But then again, back wehn I was in graduate school, I and a bunch of my fellow grad student friends adopted the Rolling Stones' song, "You Can't Always Get What You Want" as our theme song!
    I contributed to both wddings financially and in other ways. It would have been nice to have been acknowledged or have as much appreciation expressed as was to the kids who handed out the wedding programs, but what is one to do?

    In the absence of any other way to resolve disputes, sometimes etiquette comes in handy. I think that is why most wedding planners suggest that the happy couple-to-be talk to all parties involved as soon as possible about any sources of potential conflict, hurt feelings, etc. Ideally, folks would not necessarily need to fall back on "etiquette" to determine how to stage a wedding, but sometimes there are folks who tend to be "legalistic" and etiquette becomes the preferred method for resolving differences/disputes....

    In my case, especially with wedding #1, were my feelings hurt? Most indeed, they were. Was I disappointed? Yes, I was. And, ultimately, how they chose to stage their wedding was up to them. It was their day. I can live with how I conducted myself. I am certain they have no problem sleeping at night either.

    Besides, more important things were happening on that day than if I got a gift at the rehearsal dinner, or where my husband & I were seated or if we were in the wedding photos. The day was about two people who were exchanging vows to share their lives together. Succeeding in that is so fraught with peril. DH & I were there to serve as witnesses and to offer support. Mission accomplished!

    Keep posting, Fleurs!

  • wrychoice1
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thought I corrected them with the preview function...oops!

  • fleurs_gardener
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    kkny,

    The children did live mostly with the ex-wife and we had them EOW, xmas holidays, etc.

    For the first 10 years of our relationship, DH and i never had one single holiday together as a couple and alone. We had the children every summer when DH had only two weeks off. It was written in the divorce papers that he had to have the children for 2 weeks each summer and since he only had 2 weeks holidays, we spent them with his children all the time until the 10th year, is said enough is enough. We will have one week with the children and one week by ouselves. Ex-wife agreed and so did DH. The one week that we took off to be with ourselves was ruined because the step son called everyday saying : dad, did you forget us. I had 10 phone calls of him. Dh asked the ex-wife what the problems was. She said she had forgotten to tell their son about the arrangement. Ya right!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    No, i don't have children of my own and i don't see the reason for this question. I don't believe you have to give birth to a child to love a child, to care for a child or to understand a child.

    Keep posting.

  • kkny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Fleurs, I was just trying to get your perspective. No I dont think a person has to give birth to love a child, but I also think that there can be issues of how time consuming motherhood is.

    It seems to me that the mom had the kids most of the time. As to who should have told kids they would only have one week in the summer with Dad, I think if the decision was his (or yours), he should have told them not mom. When you and DH were only willing to take kids one week during summer, she took them the rest of the time. Of course she agreed, she had no choice.

    It really seems to me that the children have spent most of their time growing up with the mom, and there is no question who should have had the front row at the wedding.

    But I would love to hear from others on this.

  • notwicked
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi kkny -

    I don't think you were talking to me personally, were you? I'm confused by the last paragraph in your post b/c I didn't say anything whatsoever that has to do with your financial situation with DD.

  • kkny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    No, notwicked, sorry for not being clear, more directed at I think Fleurs comments as to wedding issues

  • notwicked
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi All -

    Like I have posted elsewhere, the BM is usually the hub of the original family unit - even if she abdicates that role, the children will usually gravitate towards her first. Hence, loyalty issues tend to arise when there is a divorce. The BM gets jealous that the children might get attached to the SM; the DD feels slighted when the children tend to gravitate towards the BM over him; and the SM is loyal to the DD and stands up for him and then gets angry herself about the way the SKs are treating their DD. Oy vey!

    This becomes a boxing match. One of the boxers must remove their boxing gloves and step out of the ring for this melee to stop. Who will be strong enough and mature enough to do that?

    This is so confusing, b/c I still don't understand why adults are arguing over who gets the front row seat at a wedding. It is beyond me b/c this is such an unimportant thing. There wouldn't be such an uproar over this if everyone would put the focus where it truly belongs - on the bride & groom and their vows to one another.

    Why is everyone seeking out and fighting over the limelight? I just don't understand.

  • kkny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Notwicked,

    In both Fleurs and OP case, it doesnt seem like the mother abdicated. And I dont think you can make a blanket rule that mothers get jealous that children might get attached to SM. With somewhat absent Dads, that would be tough.

    Yes, possibly the DD does feel slighted, but to me it seems like the logical result of being an EOW and two weeks (oops, one week) in summer dad.

  • kkny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And the SMs here talk about bias,

    here are two SMs (whom I almost suspected were trolls, but so many SMs supported them) --

    One was TOW, the other brags about how she got her DH to cut down his already limited visitation, and the SMs rally around them. So when the SMs complain that the mom always gets teh support, I ask why so many think these SMs arent out of line, expecting respect at SDs wedding, when they have not been supportive of SDs parents either staying married or visitation.

  • sweeby
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't think most of the SM's are rallying around the OP/TOW.
    And frankly, I think Fleurs would get better results by being a little more gracious and forgiving instead of retaliating for every slight, large and small.

    Where the mother doesn't abdicate - and sometimes even if she does - the mom/BioMom is most often the emotional hub of the family. Most often it's the mother who plans the wedding, invites the guests, maintains the family and friend relationships with the people who will attend -- There's a reason the ettiquette books give those front row seats to the mother of the bride.

    There are exceptions to every 'rule' of course. But getting miffed and saying "It's not fair!" probably won't work any better in this situation than it does for young children.

    If you're seated in the second row, the third row, or even the back row -- Be gracious, polite and kind. That will never backfire.

  • kkny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In both these cases, the SDs barely lived with the stepmoms. Forget about who planned wedding etc. Fleurs and HelenaR had minimal contact with SD. In most cases, the SDs so live with the mom.

    These situations are to me examples of how some SMs think because they are Dads wife they should be treated parri passu with the mother, and are insulted if they are not. Meanwhile, the mom (OK that would be me -- at wedding in future) thinks she is the only mom.

  • newgardenelf
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    kkny- I do think your point regarding how long SM have been in the picture is valid. My mother remarried when I was 35 and frankly he is my mother's husband not my stepfather. I had a father who died- he respects that but he is my mother's husband and I show him the same respect I show her. A girlfriend,boyfriend is another story still.

    My SSs have been living with me half their life since they were 4 and 5. I don't expect to be treated like their mom at their wedding but I do expect to be treated like their father's wife and a member of the family. In my immediate family to do anything less would be considered a lack of social grace and disrespectful. I will gladly stand with their father whereever they choose to seat us but I will not be hidden in the back alone just to make BM feel better unless of course I am standing back there with her husband (I would agree to that compromise). It will be a very difficult event as my work involves hosting parties and speaking with people all day and BM is very shy and uncomfortable in social situations. So there I will be in another difficult situation where at my children's wedding I will go all out making people feel comfortable, arranging plans, etc and in SSs wedding I will have to sit on my hands and bit my tongue watching BM struggle. IF I'm too nice I'm trying to take over, if I do nothing I don't want to help. Until you are a SM- you can't even imagine how difficult it is- I sure didn't think it would be this hard.

  • kkny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It seemed to me that Fleurs was treated just fine. She sat with her husband, it just happened to be in the second row. And neither mom or sm was at main table at reception. I dont think the corsage was worth a major fight. As to HelenaR, who admits to having relationship with her BF while he was still married, as some one else said, being TOW will likely result in a taint that may never go away. ARe you saying that depending on length of relationship, TOW deserves respect?

  • newgardenelf
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    no I'm saying TOW is another story altogther..

    I'm just pointing out that if you are a SM in the life of a adult child- don't expect to be treated as a stepmother at all- you are the father's wife. If you were part of raising the child all of their life (in my case my children do not remember the time that their parents were even together) than BM should accept that child may wish to have SM be part of the celebration.

    I recently went to a Bat Mitsvah where the girl did a dance with her father, her mother's second husband-who she still is close to, and last her mother's fiance who the girl is actually closest to. Her father's family walked out of the celebration. I've known this family a long time and support the girls decision to do what her heart felt. Her father makes ZERO effort and both other men actually show up at the same time to support her at school, sports, etc. If you want to be treated like a parent you have to act like one ALL the time not just as celebrations when its fun.

  • kkny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I dont know what makes you think that at celebrations it is only the mother who doesnt want SM part of it. If you read the posts on this board, it certainly appears that there are many many SMs who dont get along with the children. And if the SMs put down the moms as much as many do, as the children get older they may be resentful. All the wedding problems on this board seemed to be between child and SM. Althought the mom may have been behind it, it isn't obvious.

    I think Dad's can underestimate the time that parenting takes -- and if SM only has part experience with school age children, she may underestimate. Not saying everyone, but there may be a legitimate difference of opinion as to who is doing how much parenting.

    When your stepsons get married, I hope all goes well. And the good news -- at most weddings, the bride takes precedence over the groom, so you and mom have less priority.

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