I think you know when enough is enough. The SS is a sociopath. He's cleaning you out repeatedly and he will do it again given the opportunity. You have an obligation to protect yourself and your children from him.

As for your husband, the argument is over. If he can't let go of his son, then you must separate.

"If he can't let go of his son, then you must separate."

I think that is a bit harsh. Because he loves his son? Because, as a parent, we try to accept our children and forgive their faults?

Why do you need to protect your children? Has he physically harmed them? So what if he's a materialistic, opportunistic liar. Kids (and adults) have to learn that not everyone is perfect but their parents will love them regardless. Would I want him in my house? No. But I can see why his father wants you to forgive him and try to work things out. Your husband is stuck right in the middle.

Forgiving is one thing, allowing him back into your home to abuse your family again is another. I agree that if your DH insists on pushing for him to be allowed back in the house, it's time to separate... let him get his OWN place & allow his son to abuse HIM there. It sounds more than just a materialistic, opportunistic liar... he has issues that you & your children don't need to be exposed to. Your children are going to learn from watching how this is dealt with. I love my children unconditionally, but I could not tolerate any of them behaving as your SS has. What's missing from your post: What has your DH done??? When ss was living there and when ss lived with his mom??? (besides crying over it) I mean you talk about all the stuff YOU did, all the sacrifice YOU made, everything YOU (& your kids) did to make him feel welcome. Most kids want their parent to do for them, not a stepparent. As much as I do for my SD, she gets upset when her mom disappoints her or if her dad doesn't do things she thinks he should... even if I offer to do for her.

It sounds as if your SS has learned how to manipulate & lie from his parents. YES, he has TWO parents & he has learned from BOTH of them. As much as I would love to say behavior is only modeled from one parent... it isn't. I see bad habits she picks up from DH as well as BM. I know my SD's mom is a pathological liar ~ SD11 also lies about everything, & has also lied about us... kinda like your SS. But, my SD hasn't lived with her mom in 4 years... she has lied about us while still living with us, which makes it very hard to have a trusting relationship with her. (she told the court mediator that living with us was horrible & she couldn't think of anything worse) Half an hour after telling her counselor the same thing, she asked us to take her to an amusement park. If she said those things at age 18, I wouldn't hesitate to pack up her things (including things I bought her) & send her on her way.... I have two sons that moved out. My oldest moved back a few times because it is hard to make it out there... but there's no way I would have let him back if he had said or done what your SS has, or if he didn't show respect for my house. Once they are 'adults', we don't have to tolerate bad behavior in our home. (I laid down the law on my own son when he thought turning 18 meant he can do what he wants in my house) I can also see why you aren't ready to forgive. My SD has now told me she wants to call me mom, wants to be a family NOW... after almost 4 years of talking trash about me (& my kids) to her mom, teachers, counselors, & the court mediator. I UNDERSTAND why she does what she does... I feel terrible for her situation (she wants her mom to pay attention to her) & I really do wish things could be different. BUT, I don't trust enough to just forgive & forget. Fortunately, my DH understands my feelings.

Your DH needs to get on the same page with you. I really hope you & your DH stand together & hold firm that he can't move back... or if he does, there are rules that your DH is going to enforce. In fact, perhaps if you & your DH agree to rules & terms for him coming back.. then sit him down & tell him what is going to be expected of him, make sure he is aware of the rules... if you aren't giving him the car back, make sure he knows that. and his DAD needs to tell him how it's going to be. He may decide not to come back. There's a reason why he doesn't just go back with his mom, & my guess would be dad has money & he gets more stuff there. Turn off the $$$ faucet & if he comes back as an adult that he now is... he gets four walls. He should pay rent (even if it's a small token amount) and buy his own groceries, furnishings & vehicle. (and follow the house rules) That is what I did with my sons.

Well, I think there might be more to this story and that we have been presented one side. I've read nothing in OP that seriously suggests that this young man is a sociopath...rebellous teen to sociopath is quite the jump.

I've read lots of 'I did this, I paid for that, I, I, I', I even read after a 7 month absence that the kid emailed OP (not us and/or Dad) to apologize...where is Dad during all of this?

Op states Dad had a 20 yr marriage to BM so I can only assume here, but did'nt Dad play a huge part in upbringing this kid a good share of those 20 years? I'm also under the impression that things like clothing, drs, dentist, and community schooling is a part of being a father/mother and having child in residency...I don't think it's suppose to be that Dad is spoiling his child by providing basic daily needs and normal goals of achieving an education. So except for the signing of a car loan, I guess I don't see what has been given this kid that is so out of line of what parents routinely do for their children. OP chose to go without car repairs to buy a gift she could not at the time afford...can't blame the kid for that. My kids know 'no' means 'no' and when it is said they understand 'why'. Does OP make the same sacrafices for all the underage children?

Again, where is Dad? You gave your office, you paid for (fill in the blank) _______, does Dad work? Make any income that is contributed to the household expense? OP does not want 'the spoiled brat' in the home...is the home co-owned and financially supported by both Dad and OP?

I'm not meaning to appear to take the kid's side here, but the question keeps lingering, where was/is Dad? Where was he during the first 16 yrs of this kid's life and where was he as you were trying to blend this kid into the home? It comes down to kid and you playing tug a war in front of police over possessions. I gotta ask, is this the man you want helping you raise your impressionable 12 yr old?

Okay, so you've had enough and you're refusing to let kid back into your household (I assume Dad will see from outside the home from what was stated), but what happens when the next ill behaved kid is OP's kid? Will they be banned from the home at 18 too? By you? By Dad? How did SS go from being charming and helpful to being the kid from hell?

Good luck to you...but I think there may be more going on here than just the 18 yr old obnoxious SS.

I agree with Ima; you need to sit down and talk with your husband now, and come to some agreement on exactly when "enough is enough". If there are firm rules in place then that will help you and your kids to feel more secure; otherwise you're just waiting to see what atrocities SS may inflict before (or if) Dad finally grows a set and puts his foot down.

He may not be a sociopath but he is also a far cry from a "rebellious teen". Hell, I was a rebellious teen - but that involved staying out too late and that type of thing. There's a world of difference between that and slandering your family and showing up at their door with the police. If any adult relative of mine did that, it'd be a long time and I'd have to see some serious changes before they'd be living under my roof again.

Your DH wants to "forgive" him - what has he ever done to indicate that he is truly sorry for his actions? I do agree with justmetoo that this child sounds like he should have been raised to deal with the consequences of his actions, and it does not sound like he ever was.

Again, basing an awful lot on one side of a story, Mattie. Why does the kid rebel? Find personal possessions his due right? A broken home, a new stepmom, a father who appears to have expectations from a son he does not appear to have much involvement in (example: all the I, I, I, in OPing). Why did kid move in at 16 to begin with?

Maybe this kid feels his father has let him down his whole life. Maybe Dad dumped BM for Sm and kid is struggling with hurts and resentments. Why did the kid 'lie'? To what extent did the kid lie? Is OP seeing whatever happened in the same view a teen sees it? I don't believe this went from happy everafter family to nightmare from hell due to the actions or lack of actions from one person in the make-up of several players all coming from different directions. If this kid was indeed 'demon kid' there would have been plenty of signs of pre-age 16. I've heard not one word on the childhood of this kid, the divorce and the sudden 'move in with Dad' at age 16.

What happened to kid after the big family hug before the next move in in July? Did son and Dad have contact during those seven months?

If you can clearly judge this kid and sum up the situation based on one OP full of I, I, I, more power to you...all I'm saying is that this type of posted OP usually ends up with plenty more to the story. What the heck kinda power struggle was going on in the home that kid thought police involvement was necessary to remove his belongs from the home? Why are we getting a tally of possessions instead of details of what lead up to the incidents? I'm still waiting to hear where and what daddy has been doing for 18 years.

Did the kid get any type of counseling after the break-up of his home and his sudden dump into a different home, lifestyle and expectations?

Lots of unanswered questions to just put blame on the kid and deem him a sociopath.

But all just my 2 cents.

I don't see any indication in the original post that SS suddenly moved in with Dad at 16; I read it as they all moved in together when SS was 16.

"Maybe this kid feels his father has let him down his whole life. Maybe Dad dumped BM for Sm and kid is struggling with hurts and resentments."

Maybe you are correct. So? He wouldn't be the first that that's happened to and he won't be the last - that doesn't mean he's got the magical "get out of jail free" card that excuses any and all bad behavior. I suspect that this young man may well have been neglected and inadequately parented - and again I say, so? He is 18 years old; he's old enough to enlist in the military, get married, sign a contract, enroll in college, win the lottery, buy pornography, have a job, live on his own, have a child, and/or go to prison. At what age should he start behaving responsibly, or should he get to blame his parents' divorce and play the victim for his entire life?

And of course I have no idea if OP was misleading, intentionally or otherwise. For all you or I know OP is a 97 year old Tibetan monk or a 13 year old middle school student - I can only base my opinion on what was posted.

Okay, to be fair, I will expand. My husband was married to "x" for 22 years. She left him and thir son for another man approx. 3 years ago. They fought their entire marriage, she wanted to party and run around (this is coming from family, SS and my husband). Dad and son had to move in with family because they couldn't pay the bills. My husband and SS moved in with us in February because it was too cramped where they were, we were married in July, 2009 (not something I EVER dreamed I would do!). I make more than twice what my husband makes, and even when SS was under 18, BM was supposed to pay child support but never did. I took care of him as my own. My then 16 year old DS had a friend spend the night and my 17 SS snuck the girl up to his room and had sex with her where my 12 year DS could see. Then threatend to kill my DS if he told. My DS is on clonodine to help her sleep and had no clue her friend was even gone. My son didn't tell me until well after my SS had moved out the first time. Turns out when SS went to Moms at x-mas, and stayed, she moved in a 19 year girl for him (he was 17). We don't roll like that at our house! SS can be very charming. I have watched him dazzle the young ladies and then cheat on every single one of them. I have had countless discussions with him about respect, honor, and dignity. He says he is listening, says he understands, but the second he is out of my sight, there he goes again. He is very articulate, very intelligent, I try to concentrate on the positive and encourage him, and all is well as long as no one asks him to do anything he doesn't want to do. I don't see anything wrong with expecting him (when he lives with us rent free) to take turns cleaning the bathroom he shares with my DD every other week. He convinced my DD to get tickets for him and his girlfriend to go on a boat dance, she got the tickets and then he and his "entourage" totally ignored her, then afterwards told her that she could go to dinner with them but she would have to pay for him and his girlfriend as well. My DD finally called me to come and get her because it was after their curfew and he refused to bring her home. She wants him to be a brother to her, both of my chidren do, but he only takes what he can get and dismisses them. This last time he left he defriended both of them on FB. My DS was mad, said he didn't care (ofcourse he did), my DD cried for hours. My husband is tough to define. He is a good, kind, honest, hard-working man. My children adore him. He doesn't have a mean bone is his body and therefore cannot see who his son really is. SS once brought his best friend over for dinner (the one that had bullied my DD in school) after a brief conversation in the kitchen and an apology to my daughter we decided to give him a second chance. This kid then sat down at our dinner table and started telling one filthy dirty joke after another! Everyone was uncomfortable! I finally said that's it, GET OUT! My husband should have been the one to do that. My point is, my husband detests confrontation. He was brow beaten for so many years that he will avoid conflict ay almost any cost. The ONLY thing we EVER disagree about is his son. My husband will chew him out for 30 minutes, SS will stare off into space and say nothing, and then it's over. Moving on...Same thing over and over. Nothing changes, nothing improves. SS literally told me one night that he is intimidated by me because he can't get anything over on me, I can see his true self, his dad was easier to work around. He was smug about it! He would turn the TV to the game while I was watching it and just smile at me. Yes, my husband SHOULD step up, but he can't. He just can't. When there is conflict he gets shaky, can't eat, can't sleep, can't think straight. He is damaged. I detest his ex-wife. She is evil. I was hoping there was a chance for my SS. I don't know anymoe...but I do know that I am going to protect my children, and even my husband. I believe in second chances but third chances are almost impossible to come by with me. I'm kind but not weak and this little fella has met his match with me! I just want him to stay away and leave my family alone.

"Forgiving is one thing, allowing him back into your home to abuse your family again is another."

bingo.

Thanks for expanding. Makes the true picture much more clear.

Hmmmmmm. Military might just be your answer. Kid, and yes, even at 18 this young man is still a very immature, punk *zz kid...needs something to turn his life around before he totally ruins it for many yrs to come. You can't do it (you have no support) and Dad can't do it (for various reasons you've mentioned) so sit down and discuss with DH the solutions you can offer (and his hiding behind fear of confrontation is not an option).

Nope, can't move back in...been there, done that, and not going to work. This kid needs a serious reality check. So where is SS living now? Dad is not going to be able to turn his back on the kid, but DH needs to face that this young man has gotten to the age of 18 and has no ways of ever growing up and living in the adult world (lots of blame to toss around as to why, but it does not really matter...point is NOW what is Dad going to do about it). Kid had no normal childhood and no guidance into preparing for what comes once when he is of legal age and has out grown his 'welcome'. And his 'welcome' is definately out worn.

Kid tossed your offer of employment and school away and has clearly drawn the line in the sand, so to say. Time for Dad to stop enabling and face the fact that nothing is going to change and/or get better for this son until something drastic (such as the military and a quick dose of 'welcome to the real world') clobbers this kid over the head.

Letting him back in is not the answer, but neither is DH turning his back on the product he helped produce. Either fulltime employment with house rules that are followed or military...Dad and kid get to decide and follow through with which it is. Dad has to find the strenght to realize letting the kid back in and giving him a third chance (and a forth and fifth ) is still going to be going on for yrs to come...until Dad does, you're just the 'evil stepmom' who will continue having this same old battle of will. You, yourself and by yourself, can't do it. Nothing will change, your marriage will be gone and kid will still be being and doing just what kid is now doing.

What are the other children/adult children doing with their lives? I think OP said 5 overall and only three her DS, her DD and SS are being mentioned. Where are the other two (yours or his?) and can they have any influence in helping Dad get SS turner around?

Good luck to you.

"My husband will chew him out for 30 minutes, SS will stare off into space and say nothing, and then it's over. Moving on...Same thing over and over"

"SS literally told me one night that he is intimidated by me because he can't get anything over on me, I can see his true self, his dad was easier to work around"

When my daughter was about 8-9 years old, my sister came over to visit. My daughter did something & my sister called her out on it. I don't even remember what it was, but my daughter was stunned.... she told my sister "wow, you have a smart brain!" and it wasn't until THAT very moment, that it occurred to me that my daughter was ever playing me. I guess I wanted to believe my daughter was always being straight with me. It was an eye opener for ME that she thought of me in that way (as a pushover that would do what she wants or maybe that I was dumb for buying what she told me without question?) Parents don't always want to see their kids that way, but others (like my sister & stepparents are notorious for it) can see what the parents turn a blind eye to. Nothing can change if your DH doesn't open his eyes when it's brought to his attention.

"my 17 SS snuck the girl up to his room and had sex with her where my 12 year DS could see"

That is actually sexual abuse of your son. That would be enough reason for me to refuse to allow him to move back. That is not something that is "a kid will be kids" situation. The girl's family could have had him arrested or maybe come after you & your DH for allowing that to happen under your roof. They entrusted THEIR daughter in your home & that trust was violated.

imamommy, you are right, that sexual encounter in my home was a terrible, terrible thing. Even though months had gone by when I found out about it I went to the girls mother (17) and told her. They were brand new to town and it was her first sleepover at our house. Her mother wasn't surprised, and that shed some light on why she never came back to see my DD, it was SS she was interested in all along. That type of scenerio is all new to me. I have a 24 year DD who is married and working on her master's degree, she lives an hour away. Was she a saint? No, but she was a good kid. A little back talk here and there when she was 16 but that was about it. My 17 year old DD is messy, but if you ask her to do something, she does it, no questions asked. My 13 year DS had a tough time with the new husband. I divorced his dad when I was pregnant with him, he wasn't used to having a man around. It was shaky for about 6 months, we talked, alot. And now he loves and respects his stepfather. My husband is a GREAT step-father, he plays football with, goes to all of his practices, they run together... I raised 3 children on my own for 13 years. It was tough but I never came across a challenge I couldn't handle...until now. My SS is like Eddie Haskell (sp?) from Leave It To Beaver. I also have a 20 year old SS. he has never lived with us. I have only met him twice. He lives 4 hours away and literally does his own thing. He doesn't return his father's phone calls and fights with his mother's boyfriend so cannot live with them. Both times I have met him I have hugged him and told him that his father and I are always here for him if he needs us. He smiles back and says okay and that's that. My husband calls him every Sunday and leaves him a voicemail telling him he loves him. I have to say I respect the 20 year SS more because at least he doesn't lie or put on an act. These boys grew up in a bad situation. That is why I have made too many allowances for my SS already. Trying SO hard to be compassionate and understanding. But I HAVE to put my children first, I just HAVE to. Maybe tough love will help him. I have just never been in a situation where sensability and reasoning could fix it. I am the fixer, I always have been. This is rough. My husband is such a good man, but when it comes to communication and feelings, he can't do it.

OK, one of his sons is not even speaking or seeing him (you've met him twice?), the other one is just a nightmare. He was married for 22 years and lived in the same household with his children most of their lives. Yet it is not his fault how they turned out. I don't buy it. He clearly is as much at fault as his ex and he probably feels guilty how they turned out. He is trying to do something about it out of guilt.

I agree with others that adult children do not have to live at home if they are not following basic rules of the household, aren't enrolled at school or/and not working. But most of the time they grow up the way they were raised (I understand one kid might turn out messed up, but both?)

Let's face it, your DH might be a nice person yet clearly did a poor job as a parent. It is never too late and he can still help his son to get on a right track. I hope dad helps his son. 2-year college, military, vocational training, whatever is appropriate.

Sorry -- My first thought after reading first email was "This kid sounds like a sociopath". Yeah - A snap judgement, but this kid's behavior sounded much more self-serving and manipulative than angry and defiant. Granted, with teens and step-kids, a certain anmount of self-serving manipulation is to be expected -- but not this much.

After the OP's second post, I'm much more comfortable with that thought... This kid ABSOLUTELY sounds like a sociopath. (A dear friend of mine has a sociopath for a son -- charming, delightful boy, best manners you ever saw -- incredibly popular. Until something changes and he turns on you with a venom you never suspected was there...)

That said -- Not every sociopath is a axe murderer. Most are absolutely charming when there's something in it for them -- that's how they succeed. But they're unquestionably dangerous to have around. Because they're so charming, your children will want to win his approval and will jump through hoops (like buy him and his GF dinner!) just so they can be 'in the glow' of his presence. If he truly is a sociopath, he'd have absolutely zero regard for your children's well-being -- zero. And would hurt them just to get back at you. Or for fun. Or whatever...

Sorry - But I say keep this kid away from yours as much as possible.
I wouldn't mention 'the S word' to Dad because if you thought he was shaky before...

Sweeby, I tend to agree with you. I truely believe my SS is a sociopath. I have researched it extensively and he is dead on. Even to the point that we got puppies for each of the kids last year and he would feed and water his, walk it when the others walked theirs but he never loved on it like the others did. Never smiled at it when it was happy to see him. He was detached. Honestly, that was when I first started to notice he was a little different. He can turn it on, when he knows others are watching, or even mimic others "normal" behavior, he is just different. His puppy didn't grow and learn like the others because he didn't take time with her. When he went to his mothers and said he wasn't coming back, I was at least relieved that I could find the puppy someone to love her. To this day he has never even asked where she is! Was my husband a great father? No. He thought he was, he tried so hard. He stayed in a loveless marriage for 20 years convinced (by his wife and her family) that if he left he would never see his sons again. That is a ridiclous farce! But my husband, while the kindest soul I have ever know, isn't the most intellectual man. He was on his own at age 15 and all he wanted was a family. He endured SO MUCH to keep his family together and while he THOUGHT he was doing the right thing, it was in the end, the absolute worst thing he could have done. Children who grow up in a battle zone, watching their mother belittle their father over and over, watching their mother lose her temper and hit herself in the head, having one affair after another, that is bound to produce some twisted individuals. My husband tried to keep them busy, Boy Scouts, football, basketball, bowling leagues, track...he was at every practice, every game, helped coach..anything he could to keep them busy and focused on something positive. Yes, he feels gulity. I don't bring it up anymore, he talks when he needs to talk and I listen. Last night for the first time, he said, "I should have taken my boys and left when they were little. They would be different now." I know that is true and I know that is why he puts up with so much, he is largely to blame. No, he wasn't a mean father, but he was an ignorant one, either way, his boys are damaged. I feel bad for my SSs and I am very maternal by nature, so I have tried so hard to take care of them. I wonder if maybe there isn't some jealousy there by the 18 year old because he didn't grow up with that kind of mother. His mother is SO selfish! I have never seen anything like it! Well, my SSs....I have loved on him, he and I had one on one "date nights" and days of shopping and lunches like I do with the others, talked about everything under the sun. I just think it is too late... When his behavior affects my children I have to say no more. Some have asked about my 20 year old SS that I have only met twice. Right in the middle of the split between his parents, he "came out". He was 17. He really , really needed understanding and nurturing. He didn't get it. His mother was vested in her new relationship and his father was licking his own wounds. Both adults were selfish and not there for their son in a very, very crucial time in his life. He is still angry and hurt. While my husband now sees his mistake and wants to be there for his son, he is now going to have to wait until his son is ready to forgive him. Which is why my husband calls him very Sunday and leaves him a message, without fail. He tried to live with his mother and her boyfriend and that didn't work out because the boyfriend was calling him a *ag every day! I wish he would give us a chance but he just isn't ready... I saw on FB recently that he was saying he needed money for groceries. I told my husband (who doesn't realy do the FB thing)and he sent him money for groceries. It's a start... Need to add, the SSs do NOT get along! It's just a big mess! : ( I have to leave it all to my husband. He created this situation, regardless of his intentions, it is time for him to step up and take care of his own. I am just going to take care of mine and see in time what develops.

i think its ay pressure very hard at first to tell if you have a reblious teen or a true siocpath , yours sounds like he needs help i know what you are going through time ten i do have a diagnosed stepson who i have tried so hard to even like for 30 years , when i married his dad had 2 sons . 1 has since commited sucide .from the day to day presure of having a crazy brother, when i had a daughter i could not even go to the bathroom without taking her with me when we had my ss was in our house he has tried to kill her several times.when she and him got older she has never been able to even take a bath get dressed without him trying to watch her i cant be intamite with my husband at all my ss makes holes in the walls to watch all over the house my hhsband is so scared hes gonna commite suicide he says it anytime things are not going his way my husband caters to his every need , my daughter has since moved out so now he tu=ourtures my animals they know the second hes in the house they shake hide under bed ive caught him choking pinching putting lighters dropping hanging my dogs have to take them with me everywhere now hes 30 still is here no rent free car , you cant even have a fight in my house he magicly appears with a big smile ready for the show , when any argument is over he starst singing . its very strange and hard to live with .i love my husband or i would of left long ago ,hes killing my husband and me from the stree of living with him hes very very intimadating to us im at the end of my rope ,a true scicopath ONLY cares about hisself no ones feelings matter at all .this is a tiny bit of what i have to deal with on a daily bases he will never leave , he has no freinds when he gets a girl they eventually figure somthings not right and run wish i could but im scared to leave my husband alone

Do you really think you could protect your husband (or your pets) if your SS suddenly decided to come in one night with a gun or knife? The only thing I see is two potential victims rather than one.

Perhaps if you left that would be the motivation your husband would need to separate himself from danger.