It's hard to be patient when life as you know it hangs in the balance. Stay strong - the answers will come soon enough. We're here for you!

She was there....

I sent her a text message yesterday afternoon asking if I could take the kids to a Haunted house at the high school.

Didn't want to just give the kids the money to go ... "here have your mother take you" ... Instead I asked if she wanted to take them I would go and pay ahead of time if not I would take them if she didn't have plans already.... I didn't want to interuppt her time with them.

She's not "making any plans to do anything with them until the order comes through" who knows she says "I might not even have them tonight".

Our system:

I send her a text message she replies via voice mail.

Yeah, that'd be rough, having to spend time with them if it's not 'officially hers'...

I'm crossing my fingers for you Cawfe --

Hubby and ex were notified Saturday of court ruling. The court agreed that consecutive days of visiation was in the children's best interest. ... an EOD visitation schedule is in no-ones best interest.

The children were at a Halloween sleepover on Saturday ... parents had worked it out on friday, mom would pick up the kids Sunday at 11am and have them overnight until Monday morning. This was until the orders came through on Saturday. Mom called hubby saying she would pick them up at 11am , (she wanted to go get them at the party on Saturday hubby told her not to do that to them, they had been looking forward to it all week). But she would be dropping them off at 5pm on Sunday because thats what the new order says.

New orders ... father during the school week ... mother Fridays afterschool until Sunday at 5PM mom does not have to feed them dinner. Order also says mom can have extra time with the children needs to inform father with 24 hours notice of added day.

By 11:15 am they were calling their father yelling and screaming at him why are you making mommy sad, why are you keeping us away from our mom, why do you hate us so much, Why did you make mommy cry, mommy's gonna miss us so much she might die, mommy says she can't go 5 days with out seeing us, .... she goes 4 now. Mother was in the background yelling don't lie to your kids tell them what you told the judge about me. She read them the court order. The children are 12, 9 and 8.

They called up until 4:30 pm yelling at their father with their mothers encouragement. At 5pm dropping them off here ... she was hanging on to them in the car wouldn't let them get out of the car. Hubby had to go out and get them while they were yelling at them we hate you and other lovely phrases... all with moms encouragement. Mother called him a few choice names and words in front of the children... he said I am sorry you feel that way!

Mom could have handled this in many different ways she did not have to make him out to be the bad guy.

She called again last night at 9:00 pm to "discuss" it again with their father... an hour later still on the phone ... trying to convince him he was the bad guy.

They actually will spend more "time" with her 2 consecutive days rather than 2 separate days. Its better for the kids ... it took about 2 hours to calm the children down from spending the day with their mother.

Old orders 32 hours per week, new order 50 hours per week.

The judge spoke with the school DSS and their counselors. And agreed with the father that the children should not be going to school from her home.

Happy for the children there will be consistency. No more juggling back and forth between homes... go once a week to moms come home once a week from moms.

The kids this morning were saying ... we will like being home every night ... I said good. 8yo says how come we had to change ... I said this is not the first time the days have changed .... its been changed many times but you never noticed because no one made a big deal out of it.... we did it because it had to be done. This is what has to be done ... its better for everyone. Mommy doesn't see it that way but eventually she will.

Wow. Well, at least the judge sounds rational. Too bad about Mom...

It'll be interesting to see how she handles things. Really, it's the perfect setup for Disney-Mom. All she has to do is provide entertainment and the occasional fast food meal and she's off the hook with all the fun time and none of the not-so-fun times. You're still around for all of the hard work -- "Do your homework! Time for bed! Not on a school night --" Of course, when she finds a job, she won't be able to work weekends, and her 'mainstream dating times' are taken. Wonder how the large school projects are going to go -- you know -- the ones you help the kids with on weekends?

You might record pick-ups & drop-offs with a video camera.

It won't change what goes on at her home, at least not at first, but it'll stop the hysteria cold at pick-ups & drop-offs, & the kids will eventually recognize that, if it can be turned on & off, it isn't genuine.

I once heard a roommate's new boyfriend's little son say to his mother, "I love you" in an uncertain little voice, & she swooped in & enveloped him in her arms & quavered, "& *I* love *you*, *too*."

Even at the time, having no experience with steps & blending & inter-family manipulation, & not being involved with any of them, I felt sorry for that little boy & wanted to smack that mother.

Before she "had" to pay CS ... she would pick the kids up at 3pm on a Saturday and by 6 PM they were with a babysitter... same thing on the other days at one point she had them 3 nights a week ...that wasn't a big deal then no one made it out to be a big deal.

Hubby told her over and over if you are picking them up to put them with a babysitter just leave them home she stopped taking them the 3rd day once she began to pay CS.

House rule here ... you cannot do anything "fun" until homework is done ... so if they come home on Sunday and homework is not done they will sit and do it.

Mom lives about a half hour away in a different city ... so they would have to get up very early at her home to get to school on time ... apparently the oldest has been late quite a few times the younger ones start school at 8:45 older one 7:25 so even if they were on time the younger ones sat in the car at the school for about an hour.

The judge picked the days ... hubby asked for saturday and sunday this way she could still bring them to school one day a week. He wasn't out to get her like she told the kids.

I would recommend checking with your state laws about taping phone conversations. Here it is allowed if one party (us) is aware of the taping. I can not tell you how handy the tapes of SD's mom doing pretty much the same thing were when we played them for a judge.
You can get a handy little attachment to your phone and recorder at pretty much any electronics store. Best $50 we ever spent.

So sorry your skids had to go through that. It's so painful to read that a mother would do that to her children.

Wow!! I do not think even KKNY or TOS can defend the moms behavior!

I can't defend anything because I am totally confused - was 32 hours, now 50? What was?

"Order also says mom can have extra time with the children needs to inform father with 24 hours notice of added day."

How often can she do this?

Personally, I can't help but think the oldest one in particular would be much better off with his mother, since it is pretty clear that cawfecup can't stand him.

What's wrong with her reading them the court order? You complain that she misrepresents the court order, then you complain when she reads them the order verbatim.

The kids are 12, 9, and 9....I find it completely inappropriate for their BM to be reading them court papers, telling them what was said in the courtroom, and making them call their dad to defend their mom. This is completely unhealthy for the children to be put in the middle of this custody stuff! And it is obviously their BM that is putting them there.

TOS can you honestly say that this is okay and you would make your children do this?

"By 11:15 am they were calling their father yelling and screaming at him why are you making mommy sad, why are you keeping us away from our mom, why do you hate us so much, Why did you make mommy cry, mommy's gonna miss us so much she might die, mommy says she can't go 5 days with out seeing us, .... she goes 4 now. Mother was in the background yelling don't lie to your kids tell them what you told the judge about me. "

This is not a tit for tat battle with the mother .... it is not healthy for them to be subject to her emotional breakdowns... what good does it do them?

Truthfully TOS can you really justify mom's behavior?

And no the oldest would not be better off with mom continuously... Yes he and I butt heads.... but he and I spend more time together than the other 2 he helps makes dinner most nights. Does the shopping with me so he can buy stuff he can make with me for dinner (he loves to bake)... uses coupons and find sales since he hates math ... has to portion out sizes for the family ... (math again).... There's 7 of us how many of "that" we will need for a meal (math). He also plans meals with me. I think that is more age appropriate behavior than reading them the court order.

He is also the one who reads and does crossword puzzles with me as our down time after the others go to bed... he gets to stay up a half hour later. And I do that with him to show him no matter how much we butt heads I still care about him at the end of the day.

I do not read to them ... thats a "parents job" ... but I do play chess, checkers, or cards for a 1/2 hour before the 9 yr olds bedtime.

The 8 yr old ... well she just likes to play with her bratz, color, she's very crafty likes any craft project. She talks about her day and friends, and frost whatever the 12 yr old baked so thats what I do with her.

Tsk tsk tsk, on me for making memories with "someone else's kids".

Oh I know he should be doing that with dad...but they all get one on one attention from both of us.... in different ways but its what works for us. So we do it.

What makes you think their mother "made" them do anything? I am sure she was upset, but you can't "make" kids call their father and yell at him. That is something they decide to do, or not, on their own.

I wish I had read the separation agreement to one of my daughters in particular because she misunderstood for years. I found out years later that she was upset with me because I "allowed" my husband to divorce me - she thought that both parties had to agree to the divorce for it to happen. She didn't understand the difference between agreeing to the terms of the settlement and agreeing to the divorce itself - but it is made quite clear in the settlement agreement that the divorce was my husband's choice, not mine.

cawfecup,

I am sure you have pleasant times with him as well, but it seems that your anger at his mother spills over into your treatment of him, and that can't be good for him.

What exactly do the children do one-on-one with their dad? I keep reading on this board about children whose fathers work long hours, or far away from home, and who spend far more time with the stepmother than with the father. I hate that fathers often seem to think it is ok to give up their primary responsibility (raising their children) as soon as they find a woman to take it over.

Normal dad stuff... tools cars sports games tea parties ... homework help dad stuff

Thats something you can talk about with your child ... they don't need to know specifics.

ok bad choice of words ... she gave the children her phone to call their father and encouraged them by giving them words to say to their father.

So its ok to let children read court papers its ok for one parent to allow children to berate the other parent ... so it would be ok if hubby did that? degrade the mother every chance he got? tell the kids the same things she does about him?

What is off limits when it comes to being a parent? What do you not tell your children? ... Its ok for divorced parents to still argue? ... what was the point of getting divorced if you are still going to be bitter and argue all the time ... might as well of just stayed married ... if getting divorced does not change things.

So when the children are calling here saying they "hate their mother" instead of hubby saying don't say that she's your mom you know you don't mean that ... he should say yeah me too isn't she a B&&^! thats why we're divorced suck it up kid she's your mom not my wife. ????? that's acceptable because its the truth right?

Wow cawfe, I completely sympathize with you. We went through this a few years ago when DH got full custody, BM went so far as to tell the children (you'll love this) we PAID the judge, witnesses and DHS to take them away from her and would do the whole exaggeration 'I'll never see you again you're father won't let me' thing. Had a few weeks of 'readjustment' after they would be around their mother, was just aweful.

The only positive thing I can say is after three months, she stopped the crap. A big help to this (and I recommend it if you haven't already done this) is set the kids up with a few one on one sessions with a youth psychologist. It really helps for them to have a neutral party to talk to on these things and can kind of help them through what to do when these situations start. I remember my SS (then 9) told her on the last outburst of all this 'Court stuff is between you and Daddy and I do not want to talk about it'. Enough repeats of that line really ended it.

Personally I would agree that the farther you can keep the kids from the legalities of the situation the better, they are after all, children. There is absolutely no way DH would ever read them the modified decree as the initial 'grounds for modification' section says some pretty aweful stuff about their BM and as true as it may be, they really don't need to hear all that.

I had a big long response ...

but this kind of sums it up for me.

TOS--YOU SHOW MORE CONCERN ABOUT HER CHILDREN THAN SHE DOES!!!!!

I will never agree with being truthful about sharing adult issues with children.

Here is a link that might be useful: peas in a pod.

TOS is being incinsistent here. In your previous thread about mid-night laundry, she claimed that your SS was not at fault because his mother "made" him do it (made him get up two hours after bedtime and do laundry, something 12 year old boys are so keen to do)- even though it was by telephone and she was not physically present. Now she is claiming that the children's mother can not "make" them call their father and abuse him, while they were in her presence and even more open to intimidation. You can't have it both ways, TOS.

Well it is ok for the BM to degrade their father in front of the kids. And it is not her fault when the kids come home from her house and tell their father they hate him...it is just a coincidence!!!!

But DONT YOU DARE DO ANYTHING THAT MIGHT UPSET THE BM!!!!

If you do, TOS is going to point it out and argue that it is your fault---BM's are perfect!!

Someone else brought up this point, and I have the same problem:
how can I be a BM, who is supposed to always be in the right no matter what--but I am also a SM, who is supposed to be always wrong?

Darned if you do...darned if you don't I guess!!!!

When my kids have said they hate their father, or their sister, or their teacher, I don't deny their feelings.

People don't stop arguing just because they are divorced. Only the venue changes.

It would probably be counterproductive your stepchildren's father to agree that he hated their mother. Just because they are feeling that way doesn't mean they want him to, also. I imagine if their father said he hated their mother, the kids would feel protective of her.

My kids haven't expressed any interest in reading the separation agreement, but who would - it's about a dozen pages of really boring legal jargon. They have every right to know what's in it though, since it affects them, and they are welcome to read it at any time.

I don't agree that there is such a thing as an "adult" issue, and I think lying to your children is always wrong. There are subjects that may be private, such as details about your sex life, but I wouldn't share those details with other adults either.

I said that she should not be mad at the boy because he was just doing what his mother told him to do. She couldn't make him do it, but it is not fair to get mad at him for obeying his mother's instructions.

I don't think it is fair to get mad at them for expressing their feelings either, whether or not you believe that their mother told them what to say to their father. I personally think they were angry at their father because their mother was (understandably) upset.

I can't make my kids think any particular way. There is no way they would react favorably if I asked them to say something in particular to their father (unless it was something innocuous and logistical). They would rebel at anything that smacked of attempts at mind control. They do, however, complete the chores I ask them to do - most of the time.

understandably upset? Regardless of how 'upset' she is the behavior cawfe describes is ridiculous for any adult ESPECIALLY in the presence of children.

Mom is right.
Dad is wrong.

Everyone should just be honest with children ... I will tell hubby tonight to read the children the divorce decree and subsequent modifications.... or better yet let them read them as bedtime stories...wouldn't want to keep the truth from the children.

Should we let them read the journals we have kept since 2005?

I do think there are some things that are adult issues and you don't subject the children to them. My ex has told our daughter everything about our divorce. She knows everything that has been said between us...all the bad stuff. Of course he made it out like it was all me creating the conflicts so I am the bad person. She can't form her own opinion of the situation. Some things should not be discussed with children. All they need to know is that they are still loved very much by both parents depsite the fact that the parents don't live together anymore. They should be free to be children and not have to sit around and think about why mommy said or did this or visa versa with daddy. The court order has my name and his name on it....it should not be read to the child.

"Everyone should just be honest with children"

Yes, of course.

"Should we let them read the journals we have kept since 2005?"

Yes, if they want to.

At the age of about 12, one of our kids said, "Lying is just about the worst thing a parent can do to their child, and hiding stuff from their children is as bad as lying."

Give it up... you will convince no one to tell the children the "truth" .... no matter what you believe there is a better way to handle situations with children that do not include "lieing" and telling the "whole truth".

I don't need to convince either you or former President Clinton. What matters is that in my family, telling the whole truth is the right thing to do.

I agree, the truth is always the way to go. But there are certain things that I willingly compromise and sacrifice (like my own integrity in regards to telling the truth) in order to comfort my stepdaughters. Am I wrong? Probably!!

My stepdaughters know that their mom spends very little time with them. They also know that their mom spends alot of time with whomever the current boyfriend happens to be at that given time. They also know that their mom insists upon involving said current boyfriend in their vistation time. They also know that their mom forfeits her infrequent visitation with them for friends, boyfriend, etc. (she hasn't had an overnight in 11 weeks, or maybe its 12 now...) They also know that their mom will not listen as they beg and plead to spend time with her.

Then my stepdaughters come to me with their broken hearts and tears streaming down their faces. They already KNOW all of the above. I will NOT compound the issue. I have and most likely will continue to make up excuses for their mother in order to defuse the rejection they are feeling. If later in life they get angry at me for lying, I will deal with the repercussions then because I am unable to helplessly watch the defeat and horror in their eyes right now.

I long ago said that I will absolutely not lie to my daughter. I said this in regards to her father commiting suicide and all that went along with it. However, there is a huge difference between lieing to her and giving age appropriate answers and explainations. The mother should not have been reading the judges decree and acting the way she did. It is as simple as that. It was stupid and selfish. She was emotionally harming her children by acting the way she did for her own selfish reasons as opposed to doing what is best for her children. (Not that she has a track record of doing that in the first place) In my opinion this is akin to abuse and is completely unacceptable. This is not a matter of lieing to the kids... this is a matter of a mother serving her needs and desires ahead of her childrens which is and always will be unacceptable.

Okay so take this scenario

Two years ago BM went to Vegas, went to a bar, got drunk, left with some guy she just met (while she had a live-in boyfriend here) who was also drunk, was not wearing her seatbelt and 'distracting the driver' (I'm not going into details). Needless to say he flipped the truck, she was ejected from it, cracked her skull open (amongst other wounds) and almost bled to death on the side of a gravel road.

Now you're telling me, the boys deserve to know this truth? I certainly do NOT think so. No instead we simply said 'Your Mom was in a car accident, she got hurt so bad because she didn't wear her seatbelt, this is why you always buckle up'

As lonepiper said, these kids KNOW enough about her bad decisions and actions as it effects them anyway, why rub salt in that wound? Its not healthy for children.

Kids will ask questions about stuff they need to know. But giving them answers without them asking/knowing the questions. Is in not healthy. Let them be kids.

You don't sit your children down and talk about sex and STD's until they are old enough or come to you with a question.

You don't discuss menopause with a 10 yr old girl who just started menstrating .... its all in due time. Why rush it.
Yippee you got your _______ and in 40 years you won't have it any more....

You don't discuss algebra with a child when they are just learning how to add 2 + 2... you wait for them to ask if x=42 what is y.

You don't let your 6 yr old back the car up you might let the 16 yr old.

You can tactfully answer most questions with out lying...

I agree with Cawfe. The are certain things at certain ages a child can actually understand. Too much information, or information that is above their level of comprehension will likely lead to confusion, misunderstanding and further issues. When DH was given full legal custody of my SD at age 6 we told her that people who cared about what was best for her (judge, psychologist, evaluator) decided it would be best she lived with daddy. As she has gotten older (12 going on 20 now) we have given her some more specifics as to why, but honestly only to contradict the lies her mother has told her of what happened, what is in the custody order, etc. We would prefer not to get into it, but mom gives us little choice with her blantent lies to SD. In all honesty I wouldn't mind having SD read the evaluator's tremendously negative report on her mom and "glowing" report on us, but I realize that is not what is best for my SD. She is figuring a lot of it out on her own, and it is better she do it on her terms. It's not our right to form SD's opinion of her mom to fit our views any more than it is okay for mom to mold her child's views about dad to suit her feelings.

This woman was horribly out of line and subjecting her children to HER emotions and anger that no child should have to be a part of. She took from her kids a bit of their childish innocence that day, and it can never be recovered.

"You don't sit your children down and talk about sex and STD's until they are old enough or come to you with a question.

Yes, I do.

You don't discuss menopause with a 10 yr old girl who just started menstrating .... its all in due time. Why rush it.
Yippee you got your _______ and in 40 years you won't have it any more....

They all know about menopause, and every time I am warmer than they inform me that I must be going through it.

You don't discuss algebra with a child when they are just learning how to add 2 + 2... you wait for them to ask if x=42 what is y.

Yes, I do. Starting at about 6, I would ask them what y was if y+3=6.

No, I don't let a six year old back up the car, but that has nothing to do with truth telling.

sieryn,

Yes, I think they should have been told that their mother and the driver were drunk. Absolutely.

Hey Sieryn, why don't you also tell them how mom was "distracting the driver." Make sure your husband tells them though, perhaps in lieu of a bedtime story. What a nice bedtime story that would make - sweet dreams kids!!

Why don't we just tell kids everything? My stepdaughters mom told them about blowjobs when they were the ripe old ages of 11 and 12. They've never looked at popsicles the same way... What a cozy comfy picture huh??

How on earth does Sieryn know any details about how the mother was distracting the driver. Is it just speculation? There is a difference between information that is private, as I said before, and lies by omission. That's the kind of information you shouldn't share with other adults either.

How would she know? Well if the law enforcement agency that handled the accident is anything like the one I work for, because it would have clearly been stated on the accident report - assuming someone is foolish enough to admit to it since all police reports are a matter of public record and available to anyone for a minimal copy charge

You actually think that she would tell the police officer details of how she had been distracting him? They would have already been in plenty of trouble because they had been drinking.

'How on earth does Sieryn know any details about how the mother was distracting the driver.'

I know because her sister (the one she was out there to visit) called DH after the accident and gave him an account of the situation. Her family has been pretty sick of her behavior as well and stood on DH's side when they divorced.

So you have been confusing your children since birth.

Guessing you don't celebrate any holidays?
No santa claus, easter bunny, or tooth fairy?

Wouldn't want to lie to children.

I doubt if most of them ever believed in the easter bunny or the tooth fairy, and certainly not since they were tiny. They did earlier on believe in Santa Claus, and in retrospect maybe that wasn't such a good idea.

I asked my kids what they thought about this topic, and both the 11 year old and the teenager said that it was important for parents to talk about puberty with their kids without waiting for them to ask questions, because sometimes asking questions about such topics is difficult for kids to do. The 11 year old said that one of the books she had read on the subject pointed that out as well.

Re: the mom who nearly died in the car accident.

I'd tell the kids in a brief, matter-of-fact way, & I'd *give them a means to protect themselves*:

"If anybody ever wants you to get into a car with them when they've been drinking, don't do it. Even if you have to make a scene or cry, don't ever get into a car with a driver who's been drinking."

You actually think that she would tell the police officer details of how she had been distracting him? They would have already been in plenty of trouble because they had been drinking.

I know from working in law enforcement for over 10 years now that people admit to things all the time that get them into serious trouble and make them look stupid

My apologies TOS I forgot you are an authority on every subject

Also apologies to Cawfe - this is totally off track - once again I have bought into it

mlly,

Sieryn already explained how she knew about the situation.

Well we didn't have to "break any laws" yesterday .... video taping or recording drop-off.

Mom called at 3:30 to say the boys were dropped off at the cousins house who lives around the corner at 3pm ... and SD went to a birthday party... we have to pick her up at 5:30. Boys walked home around 5:45 ..."mommy said we had to stay till after 5 at cousins" oh ok ... well you're just in time for dinner!

I said to hubby its better this way you didn't have to drag any of them "away" from her in the car.