Although there are several posters here whose husbands are the custodial parents, there are also quite a few whose stepchildren just visit EOW, or who have adult stepchildren. The vast majority of biological mothers ARE decent parents, who work hard to raise their children as single parents. On another board that I have frequented for many years, I recall only one instance of a mother abandoning her children, and many, many instances of men doing so. I think it would be interesting to do a survey to see how many of the SM's here are married to the custodial parent, and, of those, what percentage of the biological mothers have infrequent (say, less than every other week) visitation with their children.

Although this board does seem to have a higher than the general population percentage of custodial fathers and fathers who see their children regularly, I guess that is not surprising. If a SM only saw her stepchildren once or twice a year, she probably wouldn't have much to complain about and wouldn't come to this board to begin with.

First, I am the mom. Not the BM. That is an insulting title. If you want to use an acronym, come up with a better one, and maybe I will consider it.

Second, most divorced moms that I know are not worried that children will love SM more. They are worried about treatment children recieve while at Dad's, particularly if Dad is not home much. And when I read about SMs restricting phone calls, I can only imagine how those moms feel.

Third, I have seen a lot more blanket indictment of moms here than SMs. Most divorced moms I know are hardworking women, trying to juggle work and children.

Forth, if Dad makes a lot of money, and second wife is a SAHM, I find it incredulous when she has the nerve to complain that she is expected to help with stepchildren. She is getting benefit of Dad's money -- fair is fair.

"If a SM only saw her stepchildren once or twice a year, she probably wouldn't have much to complain about and wouldn't come to this board to begin with."

Exactly. Most of us SM's married to the CP, or those who have frequent visitation with their skids, really have a valid reason to "complain". How about a little benefit of the doubt - is that asking too much?

KKNY, thanks for totally NOT reading my post but just looking more for points to argue on rather than GOD FORBID - something to agree on. The only thing you look for when reading these is something to prey upon - to take out of context and twist to fit your picture of the 100% wrong SM. Don't look behind the words at all for the point the poster is trying to convey, just rip it apart. "And when I read about SMs restricting phone calls, I can only imagine how those moms feel." Can't get past that, can you? Can't read between the lines to the bigger problem, can you? Lets just fixate on that until . . . . until . . . until WHAT, KKNY? Until you feel better about yourself having dragged a woman through the mud who only came here because they were admitting life wasn't perfect?

Is it SO HARD to imagine that maybe you don't know ALL divorced moms? That maybe there are some out there that aren't as bloody perfect as you?

I never said ALL SM's had valid complaints. I just asked that you stop to consider the merit before getting your broom out and starting to type.

It's truly sad, KKNY, because with this post you've only proven my fear correct - you truly are a BM.

I will solve this issue ... just going to snap his cell phone in half so that she cannot call him directly she would have to call the house phone .... do you think she would call the house phone at midnight? just to talk.

And if she wanted the clothes washed and brought back to her house why didn't she call his father at 10 pm to tell him she needed the clothes back and to have him wash them at 10 pm?

JustNotMartha Good post! You were fair, made some excellent points, and explained yourself well. :-)

Just not,

Again, I thank you and a lot of SMs on this board, for making absolutely certain I have no doubts in minimizing or eliminating any contact with SD and Dads GF, and if that results in issues with Dad and his GF, not my problem.

thanks again.

And Sms punish stepchildren for bad language?

From a SM

"It's truly sad, KKNY, because with this post you've only proven my fear correct - you truly are a BM."

Pathetic.

kkny - I'm interested if you've ever taken any of the 'children in the middle' parenting courses following your divorce.

No, to be honest, for the once a month my X has dinner with my DD, I am not certain how she is in the middle. There appears to me to be no other side. Maybe I dont understand what you mean.

Hi justnotmartha -

Your original post was well-written and fair. Kudos to you for the time you put into getting your thoughts and feelings posted for the rest of us to consider.

I think I can safely speak for most of us SMs here when I say that we are looking for support and encouragement. We can give ourselves enough "bad press" in our own minds on most days and don't particularly need others' negative input - especially from those who may be exclusively trying to mess us up rather than help us out.

People tend to change for the better with support & encouragement rather than criticism.

I love receiving "wisdom" and/or a "reality check" from someone who seems trustworthy and appears to have my best growth in mind when they give their input. As I grow into a better SM, I will be able to relate better with my SKs - which I believe is the aim of the majority of SMs on this board. We are not here to argue about who is right and who is wrong - that is just being petty.

We are here for support to become more loving SMs to our SKs - which, ultimately, should make the BMs on the board feel much relief.

If all the SMs think it is fair, but the moms dont, I think that raises a red flag.

I think actions speak louder than words.

I love reading on other threads, if mom doesn't have custody, dont let her pick up kids after school. She is not entitled. I have always let Dad see DD whenever he wanted.

I am not trying to mess up anything, but if you dont listen to a mom's view, you have to question how you are going to deal wiht stepchildren.

I know I am in the minority, but many SMs here seem smug and satisfied with the group of SMs saying, Oh we are all doing a great job. Oh yes, first wives were losers. And I just say to myself, that second marriages have a very high divorce rate, and when the second wife laughs at me -- that in 5 or 10 years, she will be out on the street also.

"if mom doesn't have custody, dont let her pick up kids after school. She is not entitled"

We stick to the decree days on attorneys advice, that is the legal agreement derived so why should we defer from it?

Usually if a mom doesn't have custody THERE IS A GOOD REASON. In my experience it takes a very GOOD reason for Mom to be removed as custodial parent, that or she willingly gave it up, either way as a mother of three myself I don't see how anyone mother could do that.

Show me a mom that willingly gives up custody of her kids who doesn't have problems, I've never seen one...

And when mom has to contend with Dad having more money? Do you think it doesnt hurt moms, who have to deal with arrangements when Dad's wife is a SAHM, but the old mom has to work and try to make things happen for child. Sometimes the arrogance of SMs blows my mind -- well wait till they are older, and Dad trades them in for a younger model. Do you think it is easy struggling with a job that likely pays less than Dads, and trying to figure out how to get child to practices, etc. It is heart braking.

And the flip side is if the mom can get a decree with no third party pickups, etc. (and yes a SM is a third party), ROFR (if Dad cant be there, mom gets right to child, not SM) and getting those provisions is usually a piece of cake, then she should go for it.

Again, if Dad isnt that well off, I suspect dad goes for custody or enhanced visitation to reduce CS. Which likely ends up aggravating the SMs.

"Again, if Dad isnt that well off, I suspect dad goes for custody or enhanced visitation to reduce CS."

The only reason fathers want custody is to reduce child support?!?!

Having custody costs more, between the food,sports,clothes,school,daycare etc..

you should know that kkny...

How did money even come in to play here? Money had no bearings on DH's decree, Mom's alcholism and abuse did...

Great post, but it is pointless to try ang get these BMs to possibly see any other point of view. It's sad that they are going to teach their own children this incredible self righteous behavior.

Self righteous ??? some of hte SMs here should look in the mirror (oh I am perfect mom, I am raising children).

Hahaha

Again, my child will never get near a SM.

Kkny I dont know your story. But I do believe that there are plenty of dishonorable men out there who do the wrong things. Things like trade their family for a younger woman. And I do know for a fact that some men seek more visitation for the sole purpose of reducing child support. It sounds to me like you are divorced from such a person (cant call him a man). In such a case, I think most of what you are saying is justified and I dont blame you one bit. Id probably react the same way. Chances are pretty darn good that any woman who would choose such a dishonorable person will not be a woman of character and you would not want your kids around them. I get that

Of course, not everyones story is the same as yours. In some families, it is the mom who leaves for dishonorable reasons. You must know this is true. I do wish you would try and read some of these posts with a more open mind. Have you noticed that posts form TOW get hit from both sides (bm & sm)? Most of us do not agree with TOW. Many of us are married to men and have SKs and were never TOW.

There is probably a lot that we could learn from you. But you have to try harder to keep an open mind for others not in your situation.

Jeri -

Your post makes so much sense. The only thing I'd like to add is that as humans, we make our own decisions whether we will accept reality and make lemonade out of it or if we want to wallow and play victim exacerbating our own unhappiness.

Makes sense to me to make lemonade and put the negativity behind.

NotWicked of course what you say is true but sometimes it is easier said than done. Ive known women who have been left simply because the man wanted a younger woman. Gone are the years they shared and the dreams for the future. Im sure there are journals and journals about the psyche of such a man. But I cant imagine the pain of going through this. Divorce is bad enough, but add in a younger woman, plenty of money on his side when your side is tight, kids who see their father infrequently, you dont have a "life" because he cant step up to the plate, TOW showing up to events and acting like "mom" I just cant really put myself in those shoes. Im not sure I wouldnt be bitter and vindictive in the face of all of that.

What I am asking kkny to do is to realize not everyone goes through the hell she has gone through. I would like for her to be open minded on posts such as the one at the head of this thread. It was well done. If kkny is unable to see that and can only see through the lenses of her disproportionately difficult situation, then her posts will become worthless to me and probably everyone else. And she will not get the support that she could use as well.

"And if she wanted the clothes washed and brought back to her house why didn't she call his father at 10 pm to tell him she needed the clothes back and to have him wash them at 10 pm?"

But why be mad at the child then, for something his mother did? What was he supposed to say to his mother when she called and asked him to bring the clothes to her house clean? No, I can't wash them because it will disturb cawfe, and what she wants matters more than what you want? What kind of son would not put his mother's wishes first?

This laundry issue has somehow come down to a fight between who should get what they want - the BM or the SM. I don't see that as the point. My thoughts -
Mom should not call at 10:00 requesting clean laundry. I would not call my best friend at 10pm asking them to have something done for me by the next morning, unless it was life and death. Nor would I call my SD's at 10pm when she had mom visitation to make she brought home clean clothes. That is disrespectful of another's household. If mom wanted clean clothes she could have called earlier, giving appropriate time to run a load. If I could not extend that courtesy and make the request at a less disruptive time, I would blame myself for the oversight and wash the clothes when my SD came home.

This should not come down to who's needs come first. It is about respect. If in Cawfe's house laundry prevents others from sleeping at a time they should be able to sleep, a request for clean clothes at 10pm is disrespectful. Should child be taught to be disrespectful just because mom wants something?

What if it was dad who was trying to go to bed rather than SM, and told son no. Would what mom wants be more important than what dad wants?

"I love reading on other threads, if mom doesn't have custody, dont let her pick up kids after school. She is not entitled. I have always let Dad see DD whenever he wanted."

Again, KKNY - every situation is different. As another poster said - there may be a reason why a judge and a custody evaluator decided the mom should not see the child whenever she wants. In a perfect world sure - the child should be able to see either parent whenever possible . . .but this forum is evidence that we are not in a perfect world.

We do want to listen to your view KKNY. What we don't want is to be torn to bits without cause. You strive to find something wrong with every post a SM has just to be able to point out what you view as their mistakes. That is the point of this forum - admitting we all make mistakes and seeking advice on how to fix them. I don't agree with many of the actions of other SM's on here - but I've learned you get a lot farther with constructive criticism than out and out bashing.

Consider, hypothetically, that your child did something their sport coach disapproved of. Would you want that coach to speak to your child the way you speak to us? Would that help or harm your child?

You were hurt. You still hurt. You want to rip TOW from limb to limb for ruining all you thought you had. I sympathize But I AM NOT THAT WOMAN. Tearing me, and other SM's on this forum who are looking to you for advice on how to deal with the bio-mom's (I did that just for you) a new one may make you feel vindicated for the moment, but it will never heal you. So what are you really hoping to accomplish?

"And Sms punish stepchildren for bad language?"
No. I teach all my children to speak with respect to all until they are able to determine who truly deserves it. I am able to make that choice, and in my opinion KKNY, your nasty response deserved just what I wrote.

"Would what mom wants be more important than what dad wants?"

No, not inherently. However, that was not the case. (Where was dad while this was going on, anyway?)

I realize the case. I was simply trying to separate the act from the step mom. Pretend there was no SM . . . if mom called at 10pm and wanted laundry washed and it would keep dad from going to bed would her behavior be okay? Should the laundry happen then just because mom wants it so?

Let's also remember we are talking about some dirty clothes people. Not a science project - dirty socks that could be washed just as well at moms.

I am a BM and SM ( 2 each). DH and I know both sides. My ex husband has very little interest in his children. He takes them when he has to and makes very little effort. My husbands ex wife is the exact opposite- she is so worried that she is going to miss a moment that she smothers her sons. She goes to school everyday including DH's days with the boys, signing up for ALL the field trips, tells other parents to only make playdates through her, etc....what has happened is the boys no longer tell her about things instead they ask their dad to go and not tell their mom about it...when DH tells BM- she thinks he is lying and tries to go.

Children are not chattle- they can not be owned even by BM. They should be allowed to love all the people in their life because they alone own their feelings. If a BM isn't fearful of their child loving SM more (and she shouldn't be) then act that way. Badmouthing SM backfires and visaversa.

I have a very wonderful relationship with SSs (except for some complaining which originates at BMs house (her language). DH disciples, helps with homework, helps them with chores, spends time and all I have to do is be me- we sit and talk, they help me with projects and I don't have to try- we have an easy relationship and later in life I'm convinced that we will be the home they choose to visit as adults.

Honestly I believe a lot of BM hate SM because they bring out the best in DH in a way that they were not able to do including being a better father because they are now partners and happy. The more I read posts from BM and how bitter they are- the more convinced I am of this fact.

DH had a bitter mother who kept him from his father and now as an adult we spend most of our time with his father.

"Honestly I believe a lot of BM hate SM because they bring out the best in DH in a way that they were not able to do including being a better father because they are now partners and happy."

This is an interesting point, and one my husband has voiced before. DH and EW married because she lied about birth control during one of those lovely post break up "visits", but they never had much of a relationship to speak of, by both their accounts. After she moved out and they divorced DH and I became involved, and EW became involved with an abusive felon. DH and I married, and she took out restraining orders. SD had weekend visits and grew more fearful about leaving. DH was given emergency custody, EW(BM) stayed with boyfriend until she found a new one on the internet . . . . you see the pattern. To this day EW is still angry that his life turned out the way she wanted hers to be . . . but she is a big girl who made her own choices. Her anger is projected at me for being part of the happiness he has found that she has not. It is also projected at her daughter for being part of his happiness . . . and for being happy herself.

For me, I am happiest when my children are happy. I can not imagine bringing them down to bring myself up.

"Honestly I believe a lot of BM hate SM because they bring out the best in DH in a way that they were not able to do including being a better father because they are now partners and happy."

Ok, so it is OK to bash birth mothers in gerneral, but not SMs. A lot of birth mothers. I dont think so. I think a lot of birth mothers resent SMs for a number of reasons, including boundary issues, money issues, etc. I dont think most birth mothers are drug addicts, or these incredibly useless people. And its cute when people rely on DHs opinion when it suits them, but most of the time here, DHs are described as away from the action.

A large percentage of fathers withdraw from their children after they remarry, and see less and less of them. That hardly qualifies as bringing out the best in them.

I resent my H's current wife in large measure because she has taken away my children's father - not just because she is TOW, but because she severely restricts the time he spends with them. Unfortunately he is too scared of losing her financial support to tell her to go jump in a lake.

I resent Dads GF (actully more I resent X, when I think about it) because he essentially forced me to work when DD was little and now GF sits at the pool all day long. I have become a much better person after divorce. I still work, but no longer in the high prestige job that DH thought was necessary, so now I can be better mom, better daughter to my mom, more active in commmunity etc.

So I ask you this kkny - should I be resentful because I have to work fulltime to support my 2 skids and my three children while BM didn't work when they were married and now continues not to work after the divorce?

Sieryn, the way the law works where I live is that the children of the first marriage have support set by court. If your DH does not like his, he can appeal to the court. If you are talking about supporting step children who live with you -- does DH not work? As to obtaining support from NCP who doesnt work or doesnt earn much, that is tough. Talk to TOS.

And every statistic I have read shows that the Xwife is worse off economically after divorce thatn Xhusband. But I have come to accept that the SM posting on this board are all anomolies in many ways. Maybe as TOS said, the ones who are treated well dont complain.

We have support set, but its a pittance and as I said, she's unemployed and you can't get blood from a turnip.

DH works full time but his salary is not enough for the expenses of seven people.

7 people is tough. You say "my" three children -- are these DHs stepchildren or your children togethor?

DH and I have three boys; NB, 1 and 2.5 years and I have two stepsons 7 and 11.

That has to be tough, 3 children under 3, and working full time. Unfortunately the law in my state somewhat reflects the sentiment of "First in time, first in line" as to how CS is determined. Additionally, courts can look to NCP, but if they arent earning much, not much can be done. And if you say that the mom wasnt working when she was married, I doubt she has much of a resume to help get job.

"But I have come to accept that the SM posting on this board are all anomalies in many ways."

VICTORY IS MINE!!!! That is all I ever wanted to hear from you, KKNY! Now, before you lump all of us into the mold you believe SM's fit in - the mold that fits the GF in your life - could you please consider our points constructively rather that critically? Maybe some of us have a little validity.

Well I am still waiting to hear that not all moms are not losers from most of the posters here. I doubt it will happen. I am much more concerned about how they treat the Stepchildren, especially when they say the resent them.

You know what, yes, DH and I are much better off financially than BM. But, that is because I work my butt off to make sure that I am making enough money to cover everything. I make significantly more money than DH does and if he were by himself he would never be able to afford the things we are able to together. I will not apologize for working hard and making sacrifices to better myself. I will not apologize because I am able to afford to buy oldest son an Ipod for his birthday and BM is not. She is the only one making the choice to stay at her waitressing job. She is the only one choosing to work only three days a week barely working more than five hours each shift. Dh and I both work 40 hours a week and most times more and yet still manage to make time to work around the kids schedule and get everything done. I am the person who has decided that I want more success in my career and is going back to school. BM said she was going back to school but then never showed to her classes and failed her classes. Dh and I both are on the run from far before sunrise to far after sunset ... so no I will not apologize or feel guilty that I have a nice home or that I just went shopping to get some new work clothes... and it bugs me to no end to hear not only the people on this forum (certain people) throwing that in the air all of the time... but BM as well. I don't really care if she is broke or can't afford to do what she wants and I dont really care if her BF totalled her car and she can't afford another one so she has to drive her moms... that is not my problem ... We make sure the kids are taken care of and that is the end of our responsibilities. I will not feel guilty for making something out of my life and I will not feel guilty for encouraging DH to do the same. Before I came along he was so low on himself and his own abilities he never even thought to work in a managerial role in his profession... now, that is something he is actively working towards.

Oh, and BTW just an example of the full effort or care BM puts in... the other night oldest son got in trouble at school.. school called dad ... in other words son in BIG trouble... well, BM picked kids up from school that day (DH had called bm to let her know what happened) oldest son lied to BM denying what happened ..(he had no idea BM and DH had talked) needless to say oldest in even more trouble... But at the crux of the problem is that this has been happening more and more with oldest. So, I decided to say something to both BM and DH ... I told them look the only reason why oldest thinks he can get away with lieing to the two of you and about the two of you is because you cant seem to have a conversation longer than 5 minutes without arguing... DH said I agree ... he hears everything that we are doing and saying and its not good for him... BM said and I qoute "well, he has been hearing that for years." As if that means things should continue exactly the way they are without care for how it affects your children ... great just one more example of why you are super mom ... not so much. I did say that that doesnt mean that it should continue and we all need to have better communication with each other or things will get out of control very quickly... ofcourse, it fell on deaf ears.

Not all Mom's are losers, I have nothing but respect for those who do work hard. I have a very good friend who was married to a man who just came home one day and said 'I don't love you goodbye' and moved in with TOW (while their youngest boy was less than 6 months old no less). Now she works her butt off trying to take care of two small kids, the mortgage and everything else while he rarely sees his kids. Does that affect our friendship? No, because she understands that our circumstances are different and we can vent to each other without backlash. I know there are plenty of Moms in that boat and they deserve the utmost respect, its the ones that don't even TRY to be mothers (just like deadbeat dads) that I have a problem with. Thats all.

Oh and to answer you kkny - she didn't work through their whole marriage, but she was a CPA. She COULD work if she wanted to she just CHOOSES not to (which frustrates me the most!).

I have nothing but respect for single mothers, especially those who did not choose to be single. That was me with 4 kids 15 years ago. But this stepmom bashing is so uncalled for. DH and I are raising his 13 year old grandson, his mother has never had custody. His grandmother was hours away from losing custody to the state and decently called 8 hours before she dumped him off on us.

He knows his mother and sees her and his formerly custodial grandmother a couple of times a year. He has a relationship with both and loves them. But for four years he has been DH's and my "child". Period. His mother was on drugs and in jail more often than not. She's doing better now and may in a few months regain custody of her youngest age 8 for the first time in 6 years. So to some of you angry posters, I am not the bad guy. His mother chose to do drugs and sleep around and be an exotic dancer. I am not DSGS's mother, but I am his mother figure. He really didn't have one before me. Yes, I make school decisions for him, I am there if he wakes at night, I am there if he has fears or worries. Because of work schedules, I spend more time with him than DH is able to. I am his mother figure and I am not a BAD guy for being so. Please stop bashing us and painting us all with the same brush. I didn't choose the responsibility of raising this child, but I did willingly accept it. May I repeat, I am NOT A BAD GUY!

"Well I am still waiting to hear that not all moms are not losers from most of the posters here."

I believe I have made that point time and again, KKNY. So what gives?

Beating a dead horse is an idiom which means a particular request or line of conversation is already foreclosed, mooted, or otherwise resolved, and any attempt to continue it is futile.

You are beating a dead horse when you insist on talking about something that cannot be changed.

Beating a dead horse is an action that has no purpose, because no matter how hard or how long you beat a dead horse, it is not going to get up and run.

To repeatedly bring up a particular topic with no chance of affecting the outcome is beating a dead horse.

Posted by justnotmartha (My Page) on Fri, Oct 12, 07 at 22:26

So let's bring it all back around. Here is what I see as the basic issue here debated by 1000 different examples. TOS, and KKNY to a lesser extent, are trying to say that SM's, as one sterotyped entity, are attempting to make a skids "theirs" and take the BM out of the picture totally by "overstepping their bounds" and acting in a parental way toward a child they did not give birth to. SM's, on the other hand, are beating their heads into walls trying to make you understand that we KNOW the skids have a BM. We are NOT trying to take that role. But, in many situations that role is left virtually empty by a BM that CHOOSES not to fill it.
Where is the harm in a SM stepping in to care for that child who would otherwise go without? I'm not talking legalities, which you tend to like to fall back on, but emotion. I'm saying that if SM's are selfless enough to give to a child that is not ours love and affection, how can you see that as wrong. If my SD WANTS me at conferences, games, meetings and such because she says (and I quote) that I am more of a real mom then her BM is, what should I say? Sorry, that is your BM's *right*, and though she chooses not to participate or care I can't because I didn't give birth to you? How can SM's taking on parental jobs for the benefit of the child be harmful?

"Yes, I do believe my kids are better off in a single parent home than they would be with a stepfather. There is less potential for conflict, no concerns about different sets of rules, no stress from living with someone who most likely doesn't love you and may not even like you."
You know TOS, this could only be the case if YOU were to allow this type of person into the household and their lives.

"the commonest fallacy among women is that simply having children makes them a mother-which is as absurd as believing having a piano makes one a musician"
MO4 - I couldn't agree more.

JNM -- very few dads have full custody. You can debate till the cows come home whther that if fair.

Again, KKNY, what is your point by the repost? Do you think you are proving something, because your intent is lost on me.

I am not debating if anything is FAIR. Life is not FAIR. I am debating what is in the best interest of the child.

Hi All -

As a BM (when my kids were growing up) and a SM now, I believe our emotions need to be set aside when looking out for the best interest/s of the child/ren. Afterall, this is what adults do.

Were there times when I wanted to lambast my X when I wasn't pleased with something that he & his new wife did regarding the kids? YES.

Were there times when I was actually jealous of something that was happening in their lives and mine wasn't going so well at the time? YES.

Find a girlfriend to rant and rave to. Get it out and get over it.

Try to understand - at least a little bit - what the downside might be like to live on the other side. Give a little slack.

Change what you can (walk in it) but learn to know the difference between what can be changed and what can't (let it be).

Learn to let things go a little more instead of keeping score and feeling defensive over every dot and tittle. Get out of the details and live in the largeness of the big picture.