There is nothing wrong with getting a picture of just you're boys especially if it is not the primary residence of the SS. My husband also used to have qualms about us doing ANYTHING without the 2SS. Its a guilt thing on his part, as long as you include them in your life when they're there you shouldn't have to put your life on 'hold' when they are with BM.

I would say, keep the bigger picture in mind. The things you mentioned above are not the things that really matter that much in the big picture of life. When you and your family look back at the photos, ornaments, memories - what's going to make you feel better - that you slightly inconvenienced yourself for the sake of inclusion and family well being or that there were huge fights and hurt feelings because someone's name was left off a card or missed a photo shoot.

If you love your SS's and want to set a good example for your bio kids about being inclusive and loving their step siblings, I would always vote for inclusion. Like I said, nothing bad comes from including them, other than small inconveniences of time and scheduling; while exclusion invites hurt, anger, resentment and bittnerness.

I totally agree with hlmhr. Keep the bigger picture in mind. I did just ask my SS17, who is sitting across the room from me watching television, how he would feel. He did say, "Whatever you want to do is fine." Well, he may have just said that, but I think the reality is that if we scheduled a family photo shoot that did not include him and his older brother, they would be hurt and, on some level, feel EXCLUDED.

Even when the boys lived across town with their mom, they appeared on the family holiday greeting. The only exception was this last year when SS17 had gone to live with his mom under very stressful circumstances. We did a card with DS5 and a giant nutcracker. That way, all the older kids from previous marriages were excluded, not just this particular son. Even though I was very angry with him at the time, I did not want to do a card with the four other kids because I knew it would be hurtful to him in the long run.

Regarding the baby pictures, please don't exclude your SSs. They are your dear sons' brothers, even if they have a different mom and live somewhere else most of the time. If you really want pictures of just your two, then have the photographer snap all four of them, the older two, and the younger two. This way, you will have the pictures you want, DH will have the pictures he wants, and you can graciously send BioMom the picture of her two boys.

I will come from a different perspective. Over the years, I have had friends who are married to someone with children. But they have sent out Christmas cards "year after year" with only the new children born into the new marriage, on the Christmas cards. It struck me not only as odd, but it says a whole lot IMO. And one friend (I could not believe this) had full custody of the step kids (their mom took off years before and had no contact) and still, my friend did not include any of his children in the Christmas photo (only the new kids) and his kids lived with them!

I do think that you can take lots of snapshots with your two children, (and I think you may want to) but on Christmas cards, I would think your DH would find that hurtful.

Put yourself in your DH shoes and you would understand. Imagine if your two little ones were with an ex of yours, and you only saw them on your visitation. You would be embarrassed and hurt if your DH mailed out Christmas cards to all your friends with only his children, and not wanting your two little ones in the family picture.

And think how it would make your two children feel if they saw the card.

I found the following statement a little odd:

"Same thing with Christmas ornaments. I had a personalized ornament made for '07 being the first year in our new home. I added the names of DSSs though it's not their home."

No matter what their primary residence, any home your husband lives in should also be considered his children's home. Otherwise, what are they? Company? Visitors?

I don't think you should worry about taking a separate photo of your two children, but I have to agree with bnicebkind. Failure to include his children could breed resentment from your husband.

Regarding holiday cards, please let me add that now that SS17 has been through drug/alcohol rehab and is again living with us, all five of our kids will appear on this year's card, which we will take at Thanksgiving when SS20 is home from college.

And the card we sent last year, with only DS5 and a giant nutcracker, was a 4-panel card with a series of photographs of DS trying to figure out how the nutcracker works. A few of our friends who hadn't seen DS in a while thought it was an off-the-shelf funny card - they didn't even realize it was DS since none of the other kids were in the picture!

I think the folks here urging you to keep going to the effort are on track. I live a good 4-5 hours from home, I know it isn't practical or feasible, but I *still* feel left out when Dad and my SM have a Sunday dinner with my Ssisters.
And I'm a grown adult! :)

Doing the 'together' photos ought to make them feel more like a part of the family unit, and that *yes* they are still a part of their father's life.

Try reframing your question:

How much should your husband include his two older sons along with his two younger ones?

The answer seems pretty obvious, doesn't it?

They are all equally his sons. I know the older ones aren't yours -- but he needs to treat his children equally.

I know it means inconvenience for you, but I think he needs your help here. Do the formal portaits with everyone, and simply take plenty of cute pictures yourself of the two little ones together.

I think you will be doing a service for your sons, too. The older boys are their brothers, no matter who lives where. Someday they will be grown, and NONE of them will live with you anyway. Who knows which brother will be close to which other brother then? If they're lucky, they will all be close. They are one family.

You did the right thing with the announcements and the Xmas ornament. Keep it up; I bet someday you will be very glad.

I think I already "knew" the answer for the right thing to do, but was just looking for confirmation. I think I will schedule a family photo shoot with all 4 boys. We have been unhappy with the fact that we never get 8 X 10 school pictures of DSSs, even though every year DH mentions it prior to the photos and makes clear that we will pay for a package that includes it. So now we can just get our own. (and you know what, I may take the advice and send some to BM--maybe that would shock her into offering us the chance to order school pictures this year!) LOL!
I should add that one reason I hesitated to send out a photo announcement that included DSSs was that, for Christmas this year, I took a digital pic of all 3 boys, laughing together. (the baby was not born yet.) I e-mailed a copy to DSS 13. It was during a time when he was being very quiet and moody and not wanting to visit. DH checked DSS's e-mail on his laptop and discovered that he forwarded that e-mail to his maternal grandfather and said, "Don't we look happy? NOT!" That hurt my feelings a bit and I think I resolved NEVER to put his photo on a Christmas card again. Since then, I've thought more about it and decided that I am going to be more adult about it, and consider the fact that DSS 13 is going through puberty and cut him some slack! I do have to say that both DSSs are VERY good kids, straight A students, never in trouble, so their mother is doing something right. We have had it luckier than most, I know, so I will count my blessings.
Thanks for the advice and words of wisdom!

At the peril of being overly intrusive and opening pandora's box - WHY was your husband checking his child's email?! You admitted that they're good kids, so spying on their email accounts seems kind of intrusive - like reading a kids diary - a major privacy violation. He's 13 - he's pretty much allowed to dislike everyone behind their backs while he's figuring life out.

Hope he doesn't catch on to the spying - my guess is that he will pull very far away and build a huge amount of mistrust for you. Very damaging to him and to your relationship with him, IMO. Also harmful to his general sense of trust for anyone - if those whom he is supposed to be able to trust most violate that trust, why should he ever trust anyone again?

Tamar's suggestion was great: "have the photographer snap all four of them, the older two, and the younger two. This way, you will have the pictures you want, DH will have the pictures he wants, and you can graciously send BioMom the picture of her two boys." And/or perhaps individual shots of all four boys. Use the one of the whole family for the card, of course, as well as for display in your home. But if it will make BioMom and/or her family happier to have pictures of just her two, and perhaps some of your relatives to have them of just your two (whether or not that is sad), you will have them.

I have delt with this problem again and again...its seems to me its more a problem for the adults and how far they take it.
I fixed this issue with my husband and the kids. The moto in our house is, Things are schedualed regardless with no intention of skipping people out...if you are there..you are included...if you are not...then you are not included. There were times last year i would plan everything...everything around EOW to include my DH's kids but the biomom would find out for apple picking and other stuff and purposely switch plans on the kids.
Now we dont tell the kids in advance what we do ....if they come ..they join..if they dont...they miss out PERIOD.
this way my son deosnt' have to suffer by missing out, expecting his brother and sister to be there and then they are a no show and he becomes upset. And i dont put my life on hold anymore.
One time, my stepson came but not the daughter, sooo..we went ahead to the movies and shopped. She of course found out, got upset and we all had a family meeting and said its not fair for both yours brothers to wait on you when you made plans with your friends up at your moms house. Life is not going to be put on hold for one person and an entire family is waiting.
Well, she got a taste of this lesson from her mom as well. She came one weekend and her mother went skiiing with her brother without her. She of course got upset and again i sat down with her and said ' listen, there will be times you will miss things with your mom and other times you will miss things with us. The world will not end, i know you are hurt for not being included..but think of your mom. Its not fair for her and your brother to miss a ski trip because you came here. Its not a punishment. This is life. You can't do everything. Just enjoy what you can do , when you can do it. And be happy because if you always think of things you havne't done...you will never be happy."
Its a lesson for all but take one event at a time. Plan things blindly. If they are there., they ar ethere,. if not...dont be upset. But keep in mind all the dates, because if the dates keep falling on days they are not their, make an effort then to change things around. ITs not fair for his kids to miss 100% of activity with your family. You must balance things but not put a hold on your events either.
As for pics. Ive taken ones with my son and with all the kids..i ahve pics with DH and me and my son and other with all.

Funny this thread should surface now...we finally took the long-awaited "family photo" last Friday! I had them do a group photo of all of us, one of all 4 boys, then 1 of the 2 DSSs and 1 of our 2 DSs. I even ordered a 5 X 7 of DSSs for BM! I cannot imagine DH would ever go for a photo of us and our 2 DSs w/o the DSSs. I would feel guilty even for suggesting it.
Planning is still a nightmare, even more so, as you may have seen from my recent posts. Just trying to get the picture in was a struggle, giving that BM kept changing when she wanted DSSs back from T'giving visitation (which by Ct. order was to last 'til Sunday but got cut short on Friday, another story!)
DH is coming around to doing things like taking trips w/o the SKs but he is only willing to do that if it is unavoidable. That is the best I think I'm going to get.
Also, for the question of why was DH checking DSS's e-mail. He was checking it b/c, suddenly a boy who has been nothing but talkative, outgoing and happy-go-lucky his entire life was quiet, withdrawn and like he was in pain the whole time he was around us. We feared he might be using drugs or involved in some other destructive behavior. I have always thought that good, caring parents keep tabs on their children in ways like that in times like that. I don't think 13 year-olds have an expectation of privacy when it comes to things like that. I would much rather find out if something is going on and have him upset that we snooped than remain in the dark and accept his blanket response of "nothing" every time he is asked what is wrong. I bet every parent of a child who has committed suicide has wished they had snooped a little more (recognizing that sometimes it would not have made a difference, but sometimes it might have.) I say that as an adult who attempted suicide as a teenager almost 30 years ago. I certainly wish my parents had paid more attention to what I was doing and how I was acting and had investigated it more. I thank God that I wasn't successful. I think DH did the right thing, and I will do the same thing with my DSs if the situation warrants it. I am no expert on this, but I do feel strongly that it was the right thing. However, I would be interested in hearing other opinions.

Since that time last year, DSS, 13, is acting better, though moody sometimes, so DH is no longer checking his e-mail. Both DSSs have a 4.0 grade point average and seem pretty well-adjusted. I have concluded that his problem last year and his occasional moodiness is really due to puberty more than anything and wanting to spend time with his friends rather than come to visitation. DH is trying to be understanding and will allow him to skip if he asks. Whether this is better in the long run, who knows? But it does keep the peace and keeps DSS happy.

If Dad was checking sons email out of concern, he should not have forwarded it to you. Also, I dont see any need to read eamils to grandparents. If anything dangerous I think we can assume gps will do something.

If Molly's DH was checking for concern, he has the right and he has the right to forward it to his new wife. Its his relationship with her and keeping secrets is not good. This is how relationships work as teams. You cannot say , the 'new wife's has absolutely no say. I don't believe it butting into my stepkids business. But as for my husband. I took vows infront of GOD and so did he that we are a unite and do not keep secrets to ourselves. We openly discuss things and Molly husband did the right thing to include molly in the facts.
Sending it to the grandparents was questionable but still his right.
Molly keep close to your husband with OPEN communication. Its your right as a wife to have that info. As for the rest, your husband will take care of it. (ie discipline, talking etc..) unless things are arranged otherwise in your household.
And i do agree with you, parents or any adult supervising must look into kids computers emails etc...monitoring..now adays you just have creaps around the internet and kids also have higher , much higher stress than our days. More peer pressure, more everyhting that suicide rates have escalated!
My friends son, age 17 killed himself last week. It was such a hard hit onthe parents. THey had no idea! You need open communication. Sometimes you must look at the emails. I rather be caught checking up ie spying on my kids then end up like my friends situation. She's a reck!

The email he forwarded was not a safety issue. Sending email to grandparent is not the same as sending to a creep. This is at best an excuse for invading the childs privacy, and the child will learn not to trust his parents. He can easily set up a free account on yahoo or hotmail. This type of parental behaivor will only make a situation worse.

Actually, DH did not "forward" the e-mail to me but he did tell me what it said. DH and I don't keep anything from one another. We have been married for 8 years, so I've been in these boys' lives a long time. KKNY, you are right insofar as one would not think the e-mail to the grandfather was any of DH's business. Indeed, I really don't think DH normally would have read the e-mail to the grandfather, but for the fact that he knew by the "re" line that it was the e-mail I had sent to him, so I think it caught his interest as to why DSS would forward that photo to BM's father. In this case, it was good that DH did read it b/c it was the only evidence we had that there REALLY WAS something wrong with DSS--DH had asked both DSS and BM about it, and they both kept insisting that "nothing" was wrong, when the truth was, DSS obviously had "issues" with our family.
Upon learning this, our response was to try to be more understanding of DSS's need to spend time with his friends PLUS give DSS more one-on-one time with his dad--DH even took him on a special father-son weekend to the Pro Football Hall of Fame (5 hrs away), just the 2 of them. Since then, he has greatly improved his attitude, although, as I mentioned, he does get moody from time to time, which I attribute to teenage hormones. Had DH not read that e-mail, he would have continued to wonder what was wrong with DSS. Again, having been a very wayward child myself, I firmly believe that parents have to use whatever is in their arsenal to get inside their kids' heads.
Organic Maria, I am so sorry about your friends' son!

I am so sorry for anyone having to face a tragedy. And yes it is difficult when scanning DDs emails to avoid the ones which are patently not a problem (like to a teacher).

In my opinion, excluding a child from a family portrait is wrong and may cause that child to resent it. My stepsister has two children, one from her first marriage and one from her current marriage. During the time she was single (between marriages) she only had her son. Her family (dad & brothers) asked her to be in a "family" portrait but did not include her son because he did not have the same last name (that only shows their mentality) and it was hurtful. I agree with the person that said to include everyone on the family portrait and perhaps get a few different shots with just the older ones (& send one to their mom) and just the younger ones or individual ones, but if you are going to hang the portrait at your house or DH's parent's house, it should include everyone or every time they see it, they will feel like outsiders.

Interestingly, there was a segment this morning on Good Morning America about protecting your kids from internet predators. They suggest things like 'googling' your kids to see what is out there about them and where they are going. Below is a link to it if anyone is interested. A 13 year-old girl hanged herself as a result of mean statements being made to her by an internet 'teenage boy' who turned out to be her female adult neighbor playing a hoax on her. I don't think we can be too careful when it comes to our kids and who they are communicating with on-line, and I don't think it makes any difference whether we are NCPs or they live in our house all the time.

Here is a link that might be useful: GMA story

Here is one of the comments posted on the GMA site about the article. I could have written this myself:

"In the interview it was mentioned that parents shouldn't use the spectorsoft program to spy on their children. They should use it to help the police gather evidence against someone. The problem with that line of thinking is that the only reason the police would even need evidence, is if your child had already been the victim of cyberbullying. As proven by this sickening incident, they could even be dead! As parents it is our responsibility to do everything in our power to protect our children. If that means "invading their privacy", so be it! I would prefer my teenager be irritated with me for keeping tabs on them, than to have to plan her funeral!"