For a band I still use my shovel and dig a hole a foot or so big . I have clay though so I need to loosen it up. How big of a hole do You make? Also I think mulch and extra water is important as well

If your soil isn't good, you should give bands a head-start with amended soil. There are two ways to do that -- dig a big hole and fill with amended soil, or put the band in a pot with a good mix and let it grow until it develops enough to handle growing in your soil. The few bands I've tried planting directly in unamended holes have all lingered behind those I potted first by at least a year. If you get really cold Winters, consider potting them up in Spring, let them grow through Summer, then plant in early Autumn. Plant them several inches deeper in the ground than they were in the pots, so you'll have roots deeper down in case the top growth dies off during the first Winter.

:-)

~Christopher

I make a hole maybe 4 inches bigger on either side of the band. My soil is pretty good. Only the very occasional lump of clay. I just spent a lot of money on new roses and want to I've them the best start in life. My babies.

Hmm, I have a Pat Austin and Souvenir du Dr. Jamain. Wonder if I should pot them up for this year?

I get faster growth using my "magic mix" than planting them directly in unamended soil. To make your own, you'll need peat moss, Black Kow composted manure, perlite, vermiculite, and a good organic fertilizer like Espoma Rose Tone or Garden Tone. Don't use a synthetic fertilizer for potting bands as you could burn their roots. I preferred using Bovung dehydrated manure, but Home Depot doesn't seem to carry it anymore, so I modified my recipe for the Black Kow which is half the strength of Bovung.

In a wheelbarrow, mix 2 parts peat moss, 2 parts Black Kow, 1 part vermiculite, 1 part perlite, and 1 cup organic fertilizer per 2gal container. Since I use a 2gal container as my "part", one batch needs 6 cups fertilizer. Put a piece of newspaper or something comparable in the pot to cover the drainage holes so as to keep the potting mix from coming out and temporarily slow drainage. Water will still seep through, and eventually the paper will rot away. Repot the band so that it is a couple inches lower in its new pot than it was in the band liner. When finished, set the pot in a large bucket of water to soak through completely -- dry peat moss takes some time to get wet at first, so plan on it soaking for at least fifteen minutes. You could speed this up by adding a squirt of dish soap to the water, but it's not necessary. While it's soaking, move on to repotting your next band. When you're finished, and all the repotted bands have soaked, set them out where they get sun and keep your eye on them, making sure they stay moist. You'll see growth rather quickly.

:-)

~Christopher

There many things that came to mind while reading this. I'll touch on a few if you don't mind.

First before I forget start a spray program for those two roses. One key to getting a rose threw winter here is to keep it healthy. Both of these roses black spot like crazy.

Pat Austin is a weak rose here own root and grafted. It will need the most help to survive.

Don't forget to check your soil before you water. Most water recommendations will kill your rose where we live. My soil holds ample water. The first few inches may dry out but I have a sandy silty subsoil so once established they are good to go.

I do dig a large hole and amend it for many reasons. One to be sure the soil is not to wet for a young rose. We also have many click bugs and if there are any of its larvae (wireworms) around that area. Its certain death for a young band.

Young bands come with young fiberous roots. I do think they need the extra loosened up soil to really get those roots going. The best chance a rose has this up coming winter is its root system. Since many roses are not cane hardy here. That leaves the roots and crown to bring it back to life next year. Why not give it the best chance that you can. Sometimes I just remind myself that I only need to dig the hole once in the roses life. How many time have I read the phrase never plant a $10 plant in a two bit hole. Much better to plant a two bit plant in a $10 hole or something like that. Honestly it is true the better the soil the better the plant. Okay enough of that.

I was just out side and dug a walnut tree that had started to grow. The squirrels are so kind as to give each plant a walnut every fall that I must dig out each spring. Anyway when I popped it up a giant grub was attached to the root. You don't want any of those to be in there either.

Christophers advice is always great and to the point. Much better than my rambling thoughts. So dig that hole your rose will love you for it.

Patty, do you think I should keep Pat in a pot permanently? Maybe she's better off that way.

ZZ Top,

You said your soil is good; that's great. How you are planting your bands is perfectly all right. They have to grow in the soil in your garden and you have good soil, relax.

The sooner they send out their anchor roots and feeder roots into your existing soil the better. Amending the soil in the hole only keeps the roots at 'home' when they should be adventuring out, so to say.

I like to get bands into the ground, in the spot where they will be living out their lives, as soon as I get them, and as early in the growing season as possible. That way by fall they will be nice, husky bushes.

It's the after care that is critical with newly planted bands. Adequate watering, weed control, very, very little fertilizing for such youngsters, and attention to insect/disease issues when they arise are the keys to success.

What you do after the bands are planted counts most. Planting your bands as you do is A-OK by me. I do it all the time and have great success. Don't give yourself more work digging pits, save your energy for the day-to-day rose care.

Moses

ZZ

Honestly I would not have any idea. I'm not very good with pots but then I've never actually stuck with it to know. I also do not have much space to over winter them. So for me if you can't survive in the ground you just won't be growing here.

Moses

Always wanted to try growing in native soil only. I really am worried that the babies would drowned here before getting those roots out.

Reading all of this makes me think I have been planting my roses all wrong. I typically dig a hole 2 feet deep and about 2 1/2 ft in diameter. Then I mix the existing soil with soil especially formulated for roses, put compost in the bottom of the hole then some of my mixed soil then the plant and then mulch on top. Sometimes I stick egg shells or a banana peel in the bottom of the hole.

I realized recently that perhaps I was digging quite a bit deeper then necessary. My yard is basically solid rock with a very small amount of dirt so amendments are essential otherwise there wouldn't be anything to bury the plant in. Also, I can't really think about the space surrounding the area I dig out because again, it's just rock. Digging out the entire bed might truly be an endless process, as it is each hole typically takes about an hour to dig, a very intense hour of hacking and chipping away at the rock with a spud bar and then digging it all out. It's almost like maybe my roses are in pots underground.

With as much time and energy as I've put in to each hole (getting close to hitting the 150 rose mark) if I've been doing it wrong since I started 2 years ago, I don't think I will be going back to fix it.

Hey ljsemar, if your system works for you there's absolutely no reason to go back and fix it. Having very little soil means that you need to work in some organic material in some way, and it sounds like the mixing of amendments with your native soil has been a good solution for you there's no reason to go back and fix anything. I find that my beds gradually get more pliable and rich soil as I plant more roses in open spaces or replace old roses, even if I start out with crappy soil.

My best example of this is a bed that was loaded with that horrible river rock from the previous owners, and it took whole body jumping and a super shovel to break into the dirt far enough to get beyond the river rock to the lousy solid clay that had settled beneath the river rock, after years of no organic material at all. Like you, there was absolutely no way I was going to improve that whole bed so I just improved the soil in the 2'x2' holes like you describe and mixed in manure and compost with the clay soil in the back fill around the roses as I planted them. Now about 5 years later, I can dig a pretty comfortable and quick hole in most parts of that bed and I really notice when I hit a patch where I've never dug, since I'm back to serious sweat. It's a gradual process to improve the bed, but top dressing with something organic (I use leaves) sure helps the whole bed improve.

Bottom line is you obviously need more roses to fill in the blank spaces between your 150 roses you currently have (smile). That way your whole garden will eventually have great soil as well as great roses.

Cynthia

Cynthia, I couldn't agree more about needing more roses to fill in the gaps. For every rose I get in the ground, my list of must haves grows by 5 thanks to lurking about here. Thanks so much for the reassurance that I've hopefully been doing ok. They are alive and blooming so I must be somewhat successful. Now if I could just multiply each bloom by a twenty I'll be in heaven.

I'm far from an expert but several professional growers including Paul Zimmerman state to dig the hole just big enough for the rose since digging a large hole disturbs all the beneficial microbes especially the Mycorrhizal. I have raised beds for some of my roses with beautiful manure rich farm soil but the rest are just planted in the builder grade "dirt" which is mostly just dirt. I put a couple shovelfuls of bagged compost or composted manure in the hole plus some Rose-tone or Tomato-tone, top dress with a nice layer of manure or compost and that's it. I love planting those small own root roses since the hole I have to dig is a lot smaller which works well in my boulder strewn and ledge filled Massachusetts yard.

Sharon

The caveat to that is that Paul Zimmerman and others also say to amend the entire bed first, and then later, when planting, to dig holes just large enough to slip the plants in. To do so means double-digging and tilling, then letting it rest a bit while the soil organisms get reorganized. The alternate route of getting to the same end result is to put plants in amended larger holes, all the while adding lots of amendments on top of the soil and letting the whole bed improve through soil organism activity. That takes longer to affect the whole bed, but it means you are planting right away.

:-)

~Christopher