I've just had this done last fall and kept everything at 100 amps after the meter. The meter is now rated at 200 amps. Disconnect right after the meter is the main panel and everything else is now a sub-panel. Electricians seperated all the neutrals and grounds in the original main panel and the inspector did pull the cover to check.

Installing a 200 amp meter socket at this time would be one of the smartest things you could do. No problem with having 100 amp conductors on the load side of the meter.

Ok bus_driver thats good to know. I will have 100 amp conductors on the load side of meter going to disconnect, then to main panel. Do you know if I have to isolate all neutrals/grounds in panel? I've had journeyman electricians I know at work say two different things to me.(They freely admit they don't know for sure about residential code) One says the main panel is actually a sub panel becuase of the disconnect, others say the opposite. This also has me confused on how to do the ground rod conductor. Does ground conductor go to disconnect(there is no place for it but I know I can buy a lug for it)then to main panel or just to the main panel?

Thanks for all your help,
Ron

The disconnect serves as the point of service- the grounded service conductor connects to the grounding electrode conductor here.

The grounded electrode conductor connects to the ground rods. It's better to increase the spacing to twice the length of the rods; 8' x 2= 16' spacing, instead of 6'.

The panel needs to have the neutrals isolated from the ground bar.

This post was edited by mm11 on Fri, Apr 26, 13 at 10:52

Yes, as shown by the picture, if the main panel is not itself serving as the service disconnect (which in many cases is the cheapest and easiest way to go), then you must keep the grounds and neutrals separate there (and every where else downstream).

Caught my guys napping one day doing my whole house generator. My main panel is not the service disconnect which is between the meter and he automatic transfer switch. Fortunately for them, it was just a matter of wrestling another conductor through a short section of conduit.

Think I got it. Please let me know if this is right.

Grounding electrode conductor starts at ground rod 1, goes to ground rod 2, into house and connects to 100 amp disconnect load side neutral, then on to water pipe, all unbroken.

The breaker panel then becomes a sub-panel. Where do I connect the ground(bare)wire from breaker panel to the disconnect?

Thanks,
Ron

The ground rods need to be driven at the point of service- the disconnect. The grounding electrode conductor starts at the furthest ground rod, goes to second, and terminates in the disconnect.

" Where do I connect the ground(bare)wire from breaker panel to the disconnect? "

Look at the pic above. The panel neutral goes to the disconnect, and terminated on the neutral bar, which is bonded to ground at the service.

Make sure the bare neutral conductor does not touch the panel. If that occurred, the neutral would be bonded again, which is not acceptable. It would be better to have an insulated neutral- SER instead of SEU.

There's NO SUCH THING as a bare neutral on the house side of the service disconnect. If you've got a bare neutral, you've done it wrong.

I'm guessing nogreenthumbs has SEU jumping from the disconnect to the panel, from his description of the installation.

OP- Is my hunch correct? SEU cable, not SER?

That was my guess as well, but it's still not legal.
The bare GROUND in the SE cable is fine for use as the ground. It can not be the neutral.

There's an exception for certain EXISTING installations but none of that applies here (even if it weren't new work).

The cable is SER. 2-2-2-4. The disconnect I have(cutler hammer) is proving to be more difficult for me than a panel would be. I'm not sure what to do. There is no room in the disconnect to terminate the ground electrode conductor or the bare wire from breaker panel. I'm not sure if they make a bar I could mount in there. Maybe you can see from the pic. Also note the cable coming in on left is still my OLD CABLE to the breaker panel. I have the new 2/2/2/4 cable all ready to go I just have to figure out what to do. I think I may just go buy a 100 amp panel and put in a 100 amp breaker for the breaker panel for the house. Open to suggestions.

Thanks,
Ron

Another question that wasn't answered in its entirety, or I just didn't get it. Where does the ground electrode conductor from water pipe go? I was under impression the path of ground electrode conductor was from ground rods, to service disconnect, to water pipe, all unbroken.

Ron

This post was edited by nogreenthumbs on Sun, Apr 28, 13 at 13:31

If anyone is interested I found out what I need to do. Dad came through by talking with a distant neighbor of his who is a supervisor/residential electrician.

Gound electrode conductor goes from ground rods to service disconnect and terminates there(I have to buy a ground bar/lug for this). The bare/ground from my 2-2-2-4 cable also terminates on same ground lug in service disconnect. In breaker panel I need to remove bonding screw and isolate all grounds to their own bar(s) and neutrals to their own bars. Bare wire from 2-2-2-4 cable and water pipe ground wire also go to ground bar in breaker panel.

The disconnect is what had me all confused. Not having ever wired one I wasn't sure what to do as far as code goes. One thing the neighbor said I have to do in the service disconnect when I put in the ground bar/lug is that it either needs to be drilled and tapped or nut/bolted. He said absolutely NO to using a self-tapping screw.

Thanks again for all your help,
Ron

First off, that's a particularly unprofessional installation. The feeder neutral should NOT block access to the fuses.
The rest is pretty sloppy and screams that it was done by an amateur.

Your neighbor is giving you good advice. You can not use a self tapping screw. Further, if it is serving as part of your main bonding, there are specific requirements as to sizing. You would be better off using specifically listed accessories for your disconnect rather than just poking at it at random.

As you've been told COUNTLESS times. The ONLY place the grounds and the grounded conductor (NEUTRAL) are allowed to come together is in the disconnect. You must isolate it EVERYWHERE else. Yes this means isolating the ground and neutral buses (which depending on the panel may require you to install an additional grounding bar) and making sure all the wires land on the right bar.

There are TWO types of water piping ground that you have to worry about. The first is the metal piping that comes in from at least 10' of earth contact. This is part of your grounding electrode system. It needs to run directly to your disconnect (perhaps connected to the other electrode conductors via approved fasteners. Note that these connection requirements are different than for other conductors.

The SECOND thing is the metal piping that may exist inside your house. This must be BONDED. Now the fact it SHOULD be already connected as a grounding electrode would suffice except you need to assure that things like water meters, hot water heaters, etc... do not interrupt the continuity (you may need to bond across these units).

Thank you ronnatalie for your advice. Understand I AM an AMATEUR. Otherwise I wouldn't be on these boards. Also, if you read one of my previous posts you would know that the reason that cable is terminated like that is because its only temporary. I have the right wire all ready to go I just didn't have the time and had to get the power back on in the house. As for the rest of it being sloppy, well I disagree. The only part left is the line side at top and I think it is terminated just fine. What would you have done different?

And yes I have been told countless times. The problem is everyone has a different answer, which makes me leary. Two things in particular are the neutrals/grounds in the service disconnect and the water pipe(the 10' from earth contact one). The neighbor said NOT to bond the neutrals/grounds in the service disconnect. He also said the water pipe ground can go to the sub-panel. I myself thought the water pipe ground had to go back to the service disconnect.

So you see, it can be confusing for an amateur. I AM trying to do the job right, and most importantly safe.

I truly do appreciate yours and everyones feedback.

Thanks,
Ron

Well he is WRONG. The neutral must be connected to the ground in the service disconnect.

The WATER pipe where it comes in from the underground outside (if it is metal) *MUST* be connected with the other grounding electrode system (ground rods) i.e., back to the service disconnect. If it were just an issue of being a BOND for the house piping, you could connect it to some other convenient grounding point, but that is NOT the case on the incoming water service (if metal and underground).

While the disconnect didn't need fuses, If you're going to have them there, you should leave them accessible, even if that rats nest is only temporary.

Did you ever resolve this? It sounds like the big take away is that the neutral and ground are bonded at the service disconnect right near the meter and not anywhere else. You don't want to also connect ground to neutral in the secondary panel or in your case remote breaker panel.

The question is can you "bond" the ground to the water system through the ground that routes in the 4 conductor service cable from the service disconnect to the remote panel? This would be while the grounding rod electrodes are grounded/bonded from the service disconnect panel.. Sounds like the jury might be out on this but it might be ok.. If anyone can post a link to the NEC that states otherwise I'd like to see it..

I found this link on grounding vs bonding along with drawings most helpful..

http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/7B552EEBFF0A4E5D846A5560C83D5747.pdf

Here is a link that might be useful: Grounding vs Bonding 2014

zootjeff, have a question about isolating the ground/bond bar in a sub panel. If the bonding bar is isolated with no connection back to the neutral/identified in that panel, how is the breaker tripped. I do see that a fault on the bond could work its way back to the main service panel via the panel casing & conduit but what would happen if there were no conduit (i.e. non-metallic pipe or cable was used).

I'm sure this is a dumb question but just trying to understand how the fault current would flow.

Thanks,
Dave

The subpanel must have a ground connected to it. You can either use a approved metal conduit or you can run a specific conductor (that is, there are four wires in the panel feeder two hots, the grounded (i.e., neutral conductor), and the equipment ground).

Yes, of course. Thanks for the reply.

Most service disconnects and panel enclosures specify the exact part number of accessory ground bars. There are usually pre-drilled mounting holes available for same.