I don't know. I think it depends on a number of factors.

W/ a deceased spouse, there is always "Widow's Syndrome" where only the good aspects of the loved one who passed on are remembered and, often, magnified. That is not a bad thing. But, a new woman cannot compete w/ a saint, nor should she try. Yes, she may feel left out if each family gathering centers around the wonderful aspects of her DH's first wife, but she must understand that the lady is missed, loved, and honored. I suppose enough can be enough, but I believe a wise woman would excuse herself from the room if it got to be too much rather than attempt to compete or dishonor the first wife. (My living g-mother would constantly try to dishonor my deceased and beloved one - not sure what she stood to gain - tried to make herself look better, but did just the opposite!)

If a new woman, however, tries to replace that woman, toes are stepped upon and she can never measure up. Of course, the family (children, hopefully the DH left behind) would rightfully resent the new woman's attempts to put her own touch on the house if mementos are removed, etc, in a tacky way or in a way that viewed the sentimental things as 'garbage' needing to be purged. Some, as in your case, have women who come and 'clean house' which is not only insensitive, it is caustic - resentment grows - why the DHs don't resent it as much as the children is beyond me. I'm sure it's a delicate situation for him - trying to please a new wife, his children, and not dishonor his deceased wife's memory.

W/ divorce, I think the attitude of the parents can make or break the kids' well-being. A woman who has not moved on, feels betrayed, slighted, and/or taken advantage will often push her ill feelings about the ex onto her children. Turmoil is created, the kids are not allowed to 'love' the other parent and certainly are viewed as disloyal to the shunned parent if they show any signs of being cordial to the ex's gf/new wife/husband.

I think the best case scenario is when both members of a marriage agree they love one another, but are not 'in love' and/or cannot live together harmoniously. When they decide to make the lives for the kids as easy as possible, regardless of their own personal feelings, there is the closest thing to a 'win-win' situation. When each, after careful consideration, can move forward in life, possibly find a partner w/ whom to share their lives, etc, the kids will benefit. No divorce poisoning, no disloyalty tug-of-wars between the spouses, etc. It's tough. If my DH left me after all I've sacrificed, it would be pretty difficult to put my ill-feelings towards him aside. But, I wouldn't want to trouble my children, wouldn't want my anger to turn me more bitter, wouldn't want that anger to control me. It wouldn't be easy, by any stretch of the imagination, but it would have to happen.

Today it seems easy to take vows then forget about them, "For better or for worse" ...until it's worse! But, I don't think deep down, I'd want a man coming home day after day if his heart wasn't in it because he felt obligated to do so. I'd much rather see someone at the end of the day who came home because home was where he wanted to be...

I once heard that the only thing worse than staying in a bad marriage of x number of years is staying there for x number of years plus one day. (Dr. Phil)

Guess my rationale didn't help much?

Dana

Dana,

You, of all people here, know that a "bad" marriage can be turned into a good one, with some effort and some counseling, which is clearly the best outcome for the children.

Marriage vows are important because marriage is for life, not just until you hit a rough patch, suffer depression, experience a tragedy, no longer experience the chemical high of the "in-love" feelings of the first year or two of a relationship, etc. Keeping your marriage and your family together IS an obligation. That is why they are called "vows."

Why would a parent want to teach their children that it is ok to divorce just because they "feel incompatible" or no longer feel "in-love?" Isn't it better to teach them that vows mean something, and that anything worthwhile, including a good marriage, requires effort?

I don't know. I wouldn't want my children to live unhappily. I guess it all depends what went wrong. Don't get me wrong, I come from a long line of long-term marriages who have weathered the test of time.

Today, however, if a spouse is abusive - I'd never hope my child stayed w/ that spouse 'cause he took vows and felt an obligation to stay. If a spouse is unfaithful, I don't think he/she can be trusted again - in some very isolated instances, a one-time mistake may be overlooked, if truly remorseful, but I also come from the school of 'leopards don't change their spots...' I do think there are reasons to divorce. Today, an affair can mean a death sentence to the unknowing spouse. Would you honestly want to put yourself at risk knowing your ex was cheating? Would you want to see your child put at that risk? I think not.

I also think in some cases, people grow apart. People marry too young - not chronologically in all cases, but emotionally. When there's immaturity, you just can't say with certainty how things will develop. I guess that's why we guide our kids, hope for the best, sometimes interfere, other times bite our tongues and never stop praying.

And, lastly, I would not want my DH coming home simply because of a vow he took to me years ago. Yes, I believe vows mean something. That's why I didn't marry Bachelor A, B or C - all of whom asked when I was in my 20's. I married at 33, had some life experiences, and felt ready to settle down. Would I have been OK single for life? You bet! Self-sufficient, happy and hopefully healthy and fulfilled. I NEVER mentioned marriage to my DH - actually, to be very honest, it never crossed my mind and I was VERY surprised one Christmas Eve as we wrapped gifts to be given the 'ring box' to wrap and address to myself. I had NO idea DH was thinking about that.

I had a friend who once dated a guy for years - wanted marriage, he never asked. Her friend was in the same boat, issued an ultimatum, got a ring, wedding, mediocre marriage. My friend broke off her long-term relationship, finally realized she didn't want the ring since it hadn't come on the guy's own free will - and she didn't want to issue that ultimatum that 'worked' for her friend. She didn't want him to feel pressured to do something he had ample time to do - cut her losses and found Mr. Right in the next year, I believe.

The point is, do you want what you want at all costs? Going into a marriage because the guy felt it was your way or the highway is no way to start a life together. Isn't it best to read the writing on the wall and realize the guy was content as things were, but that neither a commitment nor a family was high on his priority list?

Well, I view a bad marriage as the same. Kids know when it isn't 'right' between their parents. I don't want my kids sensing Dad would rather be w/ another woman than w/ me, but that because he took vows years ago, he HAS to come home to this ball and chain routine.

I do want my children to see how a happy marriage can work - which is why the marriage counseling was given a good shot (we were recently 'cured' - no further appts. for now, lol). However, if one person doesn't have that desire for things to work, then the home life can't be good and I'd rather my kids see two loving parents who were better off living separate lives. And, sometimes it isn't fair, it isn't right, people have mid-life crises and act in an irrational manner. I think I'd prefer to put on a brave face to minimize the angst my children must feel, suffer to my friends and adult family, then get ready to face the world again. Sometimes a mistake is made - when it happens, I believe there's a reason and that it usually has a way of working itself out. W/ babies, there seems to be a way to find the 'right' mother for them (adoption), and w/ marriages, well, one minute's devastation may lead to the next minute's joy - truly finding one's soul mate that would have otherwise NOT been found had the hurt one still been married.

I would NOT want my boys staying in a marriage that made them miserable. People who marry closer to thirty y.o. have a much better chance at not divorcing, so I will voice that to my boys when it's age-appropriate. Regardless, abuse, cheating, emotional isolationism isn't what it's all about and I'd hire an atty for them if that was what they got from their spouses. Sorry!

D

Too many people blame their unhappiness on their marriage, rather than on depression and other factors. If you believe your marriage is "bad" it is your responsibility to make it good. There is no such thing as a "soulmate" - there are thousands, perhaps millions, of people out there who would make satisfactory spouses. It doesn't take anywhere near 25 years to discover someone is not going to be a satisfactory spouse. If you marry someone after, say, knowing them for six weeks, it is hard to feel sorry for you if you regret it.

My cousin married at 16, too young by almost anyone's standards. Both she and her husband had substance abuse problems. However, they decided to honor their commitments and stay together. She didn't want to repeat her father's pattern (he was the uncle who married 9 times). Last I heard, they were still together, happy and sober, after 15 years.

In many cases, the children can not possibly "know" the marriage is bad, because it isn't. When the adultery is precipitated by depression, by mid-life crisis (which is also depression), by a tragic event, by job loss, etc., there is no way for the children or the spouse to know anything is wrong. Something like 90% of marriages in which there is a loss of a child end in divorce. Would you claim that those marriages were any worse than average before the tragedy?

My children had NO idea anything was wrong. I had no idea anything was wrong until after the affair began. After my H left, he told me that, as of a few months prior, had not planned to leave. Would you buy that after a quarter of a century together, we suddenly became incompatible? Or would you find perhaps significant that, in the intervening months, one of our relatives, little older than a child, died tragically?

I think the dynamics would be more difficult if divorced. With a divorce you have an ex spouse that is involved in your life on a regular basis.

In widowhood although you may feel you are competing with a "ghost" or "saint" in reality with common sense and compassion you can lay the ghost to rest and move forward more easily.

So sorry for your loss. I know that such tragedy often does cause an abrupt change in one's personality/attitude. Perhaps counseling could have helped or was he opposed? I also think some people just fall into lust and aren't strong enough to put themselves out of the tempting opportunity. Not characteristics I'd want my children to imitate, so better off w/o him if he isn't remorseful, etc.

I have a friend who also had no idea there was another woman in her marriage. However, she ended up finding this out and also that her husband of ~8yrs. had a whole lot of hidden material on his computer - some crazy side to him she knew nothing about. Regardless, he was sleeping around and it wasn't fair to her or their two boys to sit that situation out. I was pleased she divorced him, vows or no vows.

I also think don't often want to lie about themselves, but that over time, things unfold. I'm not pro-divorce, just feel at times it's better to cut one's losses and move on, provide a healthier environment for the children, etc.

And, again, when there's an unfaithful party, abuse, or one develops an addiction and wants no help - I wouldn't want to see my sons be on the receiving end of any of that and would help them see the light. Life is too short to be miserable, not to say you run for the hills at every bump in the road. There's a big difference. Once someone chooses to ignore his vows to a spouse and sleep around, I think the option of divorce shouldn't be ignored. HIV, Hep, herpes are way too prevalent in my opinion. I have patients almost daily who lower their heads in shame and tell me how they have an STD from a former spouse, etc. Not always sure if their story is accurate, but the risks out there are pretty high.

I get sick of hearing about criminals' rights and I view it similar to divorce. When you chose to break the law, you gave up your rights, JMHO.

D

I think it can be equally difficult either way... With a widow or widower ... you can quickly find yourself 'competeing' with the memory of the perfect mother or father. (I see this with my daughter) You dont have another person there that could possibly be polluting the home enviroment and/or just plain causing problems even after the divorce with new step parents... but sometimes it is easier to deal with a real person than it is to deal with the whitewashed memory of a passed loved one. I think it mostly depends on the individual situation.

Also, (since this is another subject that was brought up here) I have long said in regards to marriage and divorce. Marriage is a sacred commitment that should not be entered into lightly. However, if there comes a time when you find yourself fighting more than smiling, if you dread coming home every single day, if you realize you no longer trust the person lieing beside you, if you wake up one day and realize that should something happen to your significant other and anything other than devastation and heartache would be felt... it is time to go. You deserve it and your kids deserve it. I think one of the most important things I can do for my children is set an example of what a happy loving relationship is... and can be. Some people spend their entire lives looking for something that they are missing because they have no idea what it looks like when its right there in front of them. I would sacrifice everything for my daughters happiness and well being ... but what good am I doing for her if I am unhappy ... if you can see that my smile doesnt go pass my lips... I think you have to know when to hold on AND when to let go... in every aspect of your life.

Dana,

I did suggest on several occasions that he seek help, but to no avail. He would agree, but then do nothing.

The point is that if you give up and divorce, the children are not better off without him unless he disappears completely (which is tragic too, of course). Instead he is still around enough to model inappropriate (to say the least) behavior, but not around to tuck them into bed and be a father to them.

Well said. It was what I was trying to say, but you did so much more concisely!

if he isnt choosing to do the fatherlithing outside of divorce. There is very little chance he would have done it if still married. Marriage does not make you good parents and/or parent. At the very least, you have the opportunity to find your own happiness and allow your children to see 'hey this is what it is all about' I can not control what others do within or outside of marriage I can however, control my own actions my own happiness and the example I set forth to my children... ie: the reason I never married my daughters father and the reason (despite all of the complications) I married my husband.

My H had a track record of being a good, loving, involved father for almost 18 years before he became depressed and subsequently entered into an affair. He read to our children every night; he lay on the rug in their rooms until they fell asleep every night when they were little; he rarely missed a teacher conference and I think he went with me to all but one of my prenatal visits - which, considering how many kids we had, were a LOT of visits. This all changed almost as soon as he left - against the advice of his counselor, he refused to call them daily (or even weekly, for that matter). I knew that the father he used to be had "died" when he didn't want to stay five minutes to read a story after our daughter asked him to (I suspect he had a curfew).

My X may not have been father of the year, but he gave DD more attention when we lived together. Now, DD wont visit when his GF is with him, so I would yes, his relationship has gotten worse.

yes, but the point was that with or without the marriage these men would probably be the same "father" (and I use the term lightly) that they are now. They made these decisions and continue to make these decisions. If they really wanted to be a good father they would. Again, a marriage, a good parent, does not make.

Mom of 4,

Dads divorce and his GF are part of the same equation. He had an affair with her. The consequences are related.

Yes, I understand that and yes, the GF is a factor as to why DD doesnt see dad as much. But again, he has and continues to make his own decisions and he could be a good father no matter what happened in the marriage.

I know my H, and I suspect kkny's as well, would be better fathers without the gf/ow in the picture.

okay, I give up. I will never understand why it is that the fathers being terrible fathers can and are blamed on the ow/gf. These women (although admittedly not good people to say the least) are not the ones who had the children. It is up to the "father" to make his own decisions and use his god given mind to decide to be a good father to his children. If these men are truly so weak minded that they can be conjoled beyond all decision making skills of their own, to be pursauded to not be their for their own children.. these are men that dont deserve the kind of forgiveness that has been bestowed upon them and ones personally I wouldnt have wanted in my life from the start. I feel like I am talking to my son... no one in your life makes your decisions for you. There is never an excuse that evolves someone else...You are your own person and you must always always think and act for yourself no one else... not even me.

Tos, KKNY, I can understand what you say, but as someone who is on the receiving end of a stepmother who has alienated my dad's family from him, I have to say I blame my father more than I blame my SM.

I agree with what mom of 4 says: It is a weak-willed man who allows any significant other to make his decisions for him.

From my perspective, the deepest part of my pain lies in the loss of illusions about my father. Before my mother's death, I thought my dad was the greatest man in the world. He was "Daddy" and could do no wrong, as far as me and my sisters were concerned. Yet, when my stepmother lied about us, he believed the lies. To my way of thinking, I could handle her lying about me and not liking me, but it was horrible to know my father believed whatever she said. The man who raised me, loved me, spent hours, months, years getting to know me, suddenly believed I was the complete opposite of what he knew me to be.

So ... sorry, but momof4 is right on this one. It is the father's fault AND NO ONE ELSE'S if he chooses to be a lousy father.