Smoking is a tough issue. Most of my friends went through a smoking phase in high school, so did I. Some parents just made it understood that they disapproved but let the kids smoke, some (like my parents) freaked out and would ground the kid for smelling like smoke. Honestly I don't think it made any difference. Not many of the same people smoke anymore, and I don't see a difference between those whose parents chose to get angry and those whose parents didn't.

I absolutely think rules and discipline are important for teenagers, especially around the issues of chores and driving. But you do have to pick your battles, and maybe your husband is right to not make smoking one of them - not because it is okay to smoke (because it is not) but because it is something that he can't honestly control, and it is not a threat to your stepson's health in the next several years - by the time it is a threat to his health or safety, he will be an adult and will only be able to make that choice for himself.

I guess that I over reacted to the situation, or reacted to the wrong situation. (Him not even letting me know what was going on.) It may be because the lack of rules/consequences has been going on for awhile. Also with that comes lack of responsibility. The kids have very little, or maybe I have higher expectations. What are considered "normal" rules and what are "normal" consequences? I am not trying to be the mean old step-mother, but if I am not then who will take the role of "parent"...

Thanks

I think you were right to question how the smoking issue was handled. It's not as though the 14 year old kid told a little white lie or something like that, it's more serious. Like the fact that smoking at 14 is illegal! Maybe you should have told your husband that you were more concerned about how he handled the situation than the fact he didn't tell you but yet you had a right to be mad about that, too. It's your house, also, right?

There should be rules in your house and the kids need to follow them. Parents who think that not having rules makes life easier on kids are wrong. It often leads to bigger things and lack of respect with other things such as rules and/or laws in the future. There is nothing wrong with making rules and expecting people to go by them...after all how would our country be without laws and cops and officials to make sure they are followed...total chaos, right? Trying to please the kids just to keep them in your household isn't a good idea. I'm sure it makes you feel like you have to be very cautious in your own home about stuff you say or do and that's not fair to you, either. I also say your husband is not respecting you by thinking it's okay to allow whatever to go on and you're not allowed to say anything about it.

I don't think you over reacted at all!! It is illegal to buy cigaretts before the age of 18. So if he is getting someone to buy them for him, than there are 2 illegal acts going on. Smoking in the garage shouldn't be tolerated either, what if the ashes they flick away start something on fire?

Kids will continue to push the envelope until they find out where the stopping point is. I had the same problem with my SS and now with my SD. My SS actually told me that he had known his father longer than I and lived in that house longer than I and that I had no right to say anything in his house!! That didn't last long and he found himself living with his mother and than admitting to us later that he didn't know how good he had it with us until he moved back with his mother.

I think this is a problem with both mothers and fathers. The problem is that they want the kids to live with them, but they don't want to discipline them because then they look like the bad guy and the kids use this against them to get their way. Why do these parents want the kids to live with them if they are not going to raise them properly? Just to spite the other parent? They are doing these kids any good.

These kids just want their parents attention and by doing things they aren't supposed to, they get the attention they are asking for. It maybe negitive or in this case none at all.

I have come to the conclusion that no matter whether you are a Bio-parent or Step-parent, you are going to be the bad guy to your kids because they are testing the limits of authority. The further you let those limits go, the worse trouble they will get into because they haven't reach the edge yet. Are you willing to allow this to happen.

I feel for you and your situation because I was/am in the same situation. My SS is 20 and lives with his mother, can't hold a job and still doesn't know what he wants to do with his life because he is waiting for someone to hand him the perfect job on a silver platter. I have tried to help this kid so many times, but until he wants to help himself, nothing works. My SD just graduated from high school and is now in the "I am 18 and you can't tell me what to do" stage. She does nothing at home, even though I ask. I still have to tell her to wash her clothes and pick up her room. She has been unconsciously making her Dad pay for divorcing her mother for years even though she admits that her Dad is happier now than she has ever seen him. She makes out better now than if her parents were still married because her mother spent more money than came into the house. She even spent all her kids college money and than said that it was really hers anyway. I really love these kids, but I am not going to stand back and let them walk all over me. I have 2 boys of my own (14 and 9) and I don't want them thinking that they can follow the same path.

I also saw the same thing happen to my brothers. My mother ruled the house. My sister and I were on a very short leash and we have done well with our lives, even though we were unhappy with the limits that were placed on us. My brothers constantly broke the rules when they were teenagers and even when they were disciplined, my parents didn't follow through. One brother can't seem to hold a job and has had alcohol and drug problems and the other brother has had drug and alcohol problems and been in jail on numerous occasions. I believe this is because they were not made to feel the consequences of their actions.

Please do not allow your husband to let these kids run wild. So what if they go to live with their Mother. Would that be such a bad thing? Is the Mother a deadbeat? Maybe then they will realize just how great it really was at Dad's house.

Sorry for running on and on. Good luck and take care.

I don't think you're wrong at all. I didn't read through all the replies, so please forgive me if I say what has already been said. It sounds like your situation is similar to mine. I have found that lack of discipline fosters lack of respect and that sounds like the overall issue. I'm a firm believer in structure and discipline is part of that. I think kids especially need structure and adults too. I don't think that makes you into an "evil" stepmom.

Here is a link that might be useful: My Diary

I was reading my Parents magazine last night and thought of this post...I just got Aug. and Sept. magazines back to back and had to catch up! LOL Anyway there was an article called, "Are you a Parent or a Pushover?" It mainly dealt with younger kids and the consequences of being more their friends than their parents and how that effects them as they grow up. It sounds like it's happening here with your husband and SD. I wish it was still on the website but it seems they've moved on to Sept. magazine now. I've tried searches, too but no luck finding that article on-line...

Anyway, it states in the article that while becoming friends with your child may see like the best way to be close to them, it isn't. It makes it hard to stick to rules and things and then later on you find you have a child who has no problem with fighting or talking back and thinks they're the ones who run the show...Sound familar to you? They also said it's harder for the child to grow up and form their own lives because they depended on you to always be there and make things better. Today there are many reasons as to why this occurs like that parents feel bad for working so much or can't stand fighting when they are with their kids, or are rebelling against the strict upbringing they had. It's been found that being more of a friend to your child than a parent leads to having children that don't behave when the parents think it does the opposite.

Could any of this be true in your situation? Sounds like your husband is hoping to repair things by being the nice guy but in all reality, he's making more of a mess of the situation...

~Leslie~

Just curious. What has changed since your marriage? Was this his policy about discipline before your married? Whether he is wrong or not is not the issue. The issue is that he thinks you are wrong and seems to be saying it loud and clear. His idea of discipline has been skewed for longer than you've known him. I suspect things have been like this even before you came along and I wonder what made you think that things would change. At any rate - they will not change now, either.

Nothing has really changed in our marrage. He has not always been like this, his thoughts are that they are to old to discipline, which is what I disagree about. They are also at an age that they have more of a say in where they live, and I think that scares him, so he would much rather be a "friend" than a parent. We are talking with an out side party about some of the issues we are having with the middle SS, and I hope that things will come out of this that will open all of our eyes before it is too late.

Yeah - but if the children were raised with discipline before they got this old - they wouldn't be behaving this way. What I'm saying is that this is the way its always been and probably always will be because Dad thinks its ok and probably Bio-Mom does too!!! My kids are 16 and 17 and all I have to do is give them "the look". They know what's right and wrong and they know which option I EXPECT them to choose if they don't want to suffer consequances. Maybe what Dad is trying to say is "They have never had discipline and its too late to start." Its quite a different thing than they are too old to discipline. There are 70 year old men in jail because they are being disciplined - so you're never too old to suffer the consequances of your choices.

Smoking is FUN...especially that wacky tabaccy. Get over it. Those kids are old enuf to do whatever they want.

Rosie- didn't you contradict yourself???? In 1 post you write " I suspect things have been like this even before you came along and I wonder what made you think that things would change. At any rate- they will not change now, either."
And then in the next post, "There are 70 yr. old men in jail because they are being disciplined- so you're never to old to suffer the consequences of your choices!"
SO MY POINT is if 70 years old is not to late- then 13, 14, and 16 is DEFINITELY NOT too late to learn!
If dad and step mom can get on the same page- then these kids can definitely learn!! And if they are seeking the help of a 3rd party than it is quite obvious that they want to make a change in their situation, and so there is always HOPE!
Also, I hate to be rude, eps. since i am new to this forum- but IF you are the "perfect mom" and can just give your children "THE LOOK"- then WHY are you HERE??? JUST TO HELP US LESS FORTUNATE NON PERFECT PARENTS AND STEP PARENTS?
Spazcatt- Good luck and huggs to you!

The point is that the kids were this way before you married and they will be this way forever because the bio mom and the bio dad do not discipline the kids and see no need for it. The step has pretty much nothing to say about it when both bios agree. These kids were this way when you married this man and they will continue to be this way because their parents have determined that this is how they were to be raised. There is only hope for these kids if bio Dad sees the light - which he obviously chooses not to. If Mom and Dad allow things to continue, you are just a lone thorn in their side howling in the wind because they will always come up with the age old battle cry of kids ... you are not my mother. Now if you and Dad put up a united front - that would make a world of difference. The kids wont change because their parents aren't doing anything to make it change. This is the way they were raised and this is the way it will obviously continue because of the parents. I am not a perfect parent and have had many Oprah moments, but our kids grew up from day one in a place where Mom and Dad expected a certain type of behavior or there were consequances. At this age, there is little time left to affect much change since they will be out of the nest soon ...especially the 16 year old. They may indeed choose not to be with Dad at all if life gets too unpleasant for them at your home. All boils down to ... Dad is the problem and he will have to be the solution. The kids will always choose the easy, fun way out. Even in a home with bio mom and bio dad such as ours, the Mom (me) is usually the one to carry most of the burden of discipline because we are with the kids more of the time, but knowing that Dad is supportive makes all the difference. They are also aware that you are the one that wants to change the status quo while dad is the easy one. My hugs and best wishes to you as well. Your job is a lot tougher than mine and I give you much credit for taking it on. I know I could never do it. Trying to undo the damage of many years of lax discipline is like going against the wind at best and so much more difficult when Dad acts like an ostrich sticking his head in the sand. As a step, your authority with the kids can be strengthened or undermined depending on Dad and I sense that he is unwilling to support you in this.

RosieL,
Never once did I state that they NEVER had discipline so I am not sure where you are getting that. It is only recently (past year) that discipline hasn't been what it should be. As far as Bio-mom goes, she is going to take the easy way out and just let them do what ever they want, lets face it they see her everyother weekend for less than 2 days each time, when she wants to see them, so it is no skin off her nose if they kids do what ever, and that isn't going to change, it would be great if it could, but it is HER choice not to see the kids. It was HER choice for the breakup, it was HER choice to find a boyfriend before she even talked about divorce. She doesn't have to make them responsible humans, she looks at it like all she needs to do is be their "friend" and then let US battle the rest. And as far as the age old statement of...you are not my mother....that has never been said as they do know better, we have made it very clear that that attitude is not acceptable and that would be crossing the line...we do have a united front, and we never contridict eachother at least in front of the kids, however I am not going to be the bad guy all the time as that is not my job, however helping mold them into decent humans is part of my job and a job that I knew before we got married, and accepted completely and do not regret as a lot of people seem to.

Isn't the definition of discipline really being a guiding force in the lives of children?

At younger ages it's a bit easier to teach kids, the consequences of what they do.

But as they get older and become more independent, the ability for a parent to be a guiding force that makes a difference becomes less and less. But there comes a time when the child will decide what is best for him/her regardless of what the parent thinks.

I'm not saying the parenting role is supposed to disappear altogether, but if a teenager has already made his mind up to smoke, there will be very little a parent can do -- except ban smoking from the house. If there are huge negative consequences for smoking, the kid will go underground with it. Same for sex, chewing tobacco, music, differing religious views, disapproval of boyfriends, girlfriends or friends in general.

If the kid is merely experimenting with smoking, perhaps the parent can make a difference. But if the consequences are too harsh and the kid goes "underground" completely, it will be MUCH harder, if not impossible, to communicate.

Which is going to cause a kid to grow up to be anti-social? Too many rules, too harsh consequences or not enough? Is there a middle ground?

You are NEVER to old for discipline. And if you and your husband don't disipline these kids, the criminal justice system will, and us taxpayers will be left holding the bill.

I don't agree with QQQQ at all. There are those who say that kids will do what they will do so the parents want to be there to observe it. That person might say, "Heck kids are going to drink. I'd rather have them do it now at home so I can teach them how to do it responsibly". Really! Why then don't we just throw our solutionless hands in the air and provide those same kids with sterile syringes? That way we will know that if they use intravenous drugs at least it will be safe. That's a good lesson isn't it? Maybe we can even have your son bring home the local slut so you can teach them proper techniques when rolling on a condom. Heck we don't want them to get some horrible disease do we?

I think most parents today are gutless cowards afraid to address issues head on. Too bad if the kids don't like things. Teach them that drugs are verboten and that sex, alcohol and cigarettes are things that adults do and which, if used imprudently (which is always with cigs IMO) will kill them. I'd rather they learn restraint than to learn to do whatever it is they want to do but learn how to do it "cleanly".

I don't see anywhere in my post where it said, let kids run around willy-nilly and do whatever they want. I also never said it's okay for a child to smoke, use drugs, drink or have sex.

What I said was: be a guiding force.

You can teach what is forbidden. But you can teach with such a force that kids WILL not listen, will not communicate, will not hear our lectures and WILL go "underground".

That was my point.

There will come a time, in spite of all of our efforts, when our kids are going to make their own decisions, whether we like them or not, whether we think they are in their best interests or not. And of course, they will make their own mistakes.

My question was/is... the other point seemingly missed entirely...

Is there a middle ground in setting standards so both parents can support the rules? (because if both parents don't support the household rules -- that opens up another whoel set of problems) Or, as in spazkatt's case, does each parent have to sit at the opposite end of the pole?

What exactly is the BEST way to "lay down the line" so our kids do the right things?

UPDATE
Well my 14 YO SS was suspended once again, this time it was inappropriate relations with a girl in the boys bathroom at school. He was suspended for 2 weeks. Prior to this happening things got real ugly at home with him. DH told him that he had 30 days to start going by the rules or he would be moving in with BM, he didn't want that to happen so he said he would, well it didn't, but luckily in this whole mess BM grew a brain, got rid of the BF and relized that she needed to have a part in raising this very difficult child. He does much better when it is a one on one relationship so I have hope, I am not sure this is really the answer. Everyone tells us what a different child he is, how helpful he can be, until he comes home and then he is the most pain in the butt kid I have seen. He doesn't listen to anything either one of us say, he still hangs with the "wrong" crowd, failing every class (partly due to his suspention), smoking behind our back, not to mention anything else we haven't found out about. He also knows that the door isn't closed, if things improve he can come back, but that won't be for awhile. We are at our wits end, and she stepped up to the plate. Her and I are actully getting along, which is another plus. The sad thing about this that the other two kids are not upset that he is moving, they understand, and the youngest (who gets the brunt of his picking) is looking forward to it. I hope that he looks at this (once he sees that it is for his benefit)as a chance to do something positive without his druggie friend, a new start so to speak.

When I married my husband a little over a year ago, he had custody of his 15 year old daughter who is now 17. Her mother and stepdad who she always seemed close to moved to Florida. She had a boyfriend here and didn't want to go so Her dad took her. She had never lived with him or spent toomuch time with him before, so of course he wasn't about to disipline or enforce a thing. She did just as she pleased. I have never once witnessed him punishing her in any way. She destroyed his apartment, had her potsmoking, friends over, shoplifted, lied, had her boyfriend stay all night, ect. Well, when my husband and I decided to marry, I figured She needed a parent figure and things would eventually work out. I after all had 2 children 18 and 19 at the time who I raised alone, and they are very independent, caring,and live on their own now at 20 and 21. I was just going to treat her as if she were my own. When I told my husband and his daughter that I couldn't live the way she had been running the show, she decided she hated me then.My husband was ready for a change with this situation and we bought a house, married and hoped for the best. The day we moved in i told her to try to be more considerate when she asked my exausted daughter who was moving in the guest house to take her back to her old apartment to get her food after my husband had just spent a small fortune on dinner for us all. Well, when I said this, SD pulled her usual act with DH and hung her head and sobbed. DH scolded me in front of her, and from then on this sort of scene was replayed for almost a year. SD decided she hated us both and wanted to go live with BM. She lasted 3 mos there until BM threw her out. No one knows really why, but SD says because she came in late one time. sure. SD's aunt that lives here says she will be glad for her to live with her now, and SD had always liked her, because she would stay with her alot of weekends. Surprise, the aunt has rules now that SD is actually living with her now.She has been in town 3 weeks and is already defying her aunt who has given her a car and made sure she had insurance. We are now paying the aunt child support. Things have switched now. When SD is afraid to face her aunt who has rules unlike her dad never did, she comes here to get DH to protect her and pet her which he does even when the police called us at 3 am about her disturbing the peace with her hood friends. DH kept it from the aunt and made SD think that what she did was not so bad. I am now worried that her aunt will throw her out and I have told DH that I will not live with him and his daughter again. She has now dropped out of school. He realizes what we lived with for a year with her and he was a lot to blame, how he hurt me by undermining me in front of her. She is 17 now, and I don't think the no consequences pattern can be changed. If I could do it over again, I probably would have taken others advice and waited until she was grown before I married him. This has taken a toll on our marriage. Sorry to be so negative.

wow -- I must say I can relate to what your going through.. but the truth of the matter is this Child who is almost an adult is extremely angry... and Dad, while he thinks he being her friend by passifying her is destroying her little by little. He is failing every test she has set for him. Both of her parents have abandoned this child by allowing her to live with her aunt. I am not sure if they ever sought counseling, but it is blatantly obvious that Biological Mom and Dad need counseling in order to help their daughter. You seem to recognize that children , whether they are 2 or 17 need boundaries and rules ... because it means they are loved. Unfortunatley her parents are not as well-versed for some reason.. my guess is guilt over took their ability to be good parents. Ive seen it over and over again. Parents feel guilty about putting their child through the torment of divorce and over compensate by giving in to the the child's every whim. What they dont realize is that they further alienate the child by not giving them a secure environment to live in. Its chaotic because the parents allow the child to run it.

Having said all of this...the truth of the matter is your husband needs to realize that his behavior is destroying his daughter. Its time for the Parents to wake up.
Its great that you are a concerned Step Mom but I think that our step children get more angry when we as step parents... step- up ( pardon the pun) to the plate, while the Biologicals just stop parenting. Does this make any sense..? Ihope so.. and I hope that those two biological parents reach out for the counseling they need. It would be helpful if you could be included in the counseling as well. Dont underestimate the Power of being a step-mom. I truly believe that 10 years from your step daughter is going to be grateful that someone like you was in her life.

Bnagel -- you go girl! I have said this before and I couldn't have said it better than you just did ... bio parents are often so guilt-ridden over upsetting their kids lives that they definitely over compensate in many ways, such as: no discipline or consequences, giving in, ignoring bad behavior, spoiling, and oh yeah -- my favorite -- making the stepparent look like the bad guy because we are the only one with enough GUTS to discipline these kids!

Thank you for saying it again.

Another sad consequence of "non-parenting" is that the kids end up so unlikeable. One of my sisters has done an absolutely abysmal job raising her daughter, who is now 13. Because of her lack of discipline and her mom trying to be her "best friend", this child is simply obnoxious. I never thought I would dislike a child, but I really don't like her at all. I do my best to treat her like any other, but it is difficult. I really do feel sorry for her.