Well, ten years olds have their moments where they are selfish, whiny, and selfish... So sometimes you just have to think "One day she'll grow out of it and be a proper human being," but if it's constant or excessive, then you need to find a solution.

My FDH's son is 9 and he has the odd moment where I don't think he's such a peach. So I leave the room, or even leave the house. I'm usually feeling more tolerant by the time I choose to return.

I have to ask though... How do you bring up her daughter's behavior? Do you start off with "Your daughter is a spoiled rotten brat!" or do you say "Sweetie, I had a hard time dealing with your daughter today and I need your help, please."
I don't know how you two talk about her daughter, but with defensive people or touchy subjects, it can help to make it seem like YOU'RE the one with a problem who needs THEIR help. So instead of "Your DD's incessant whining makes me want to rip my ears off with my bare hands" (not that I think you'd say that) which would put most anyone on the defensive, you can say "Sometimes I wind up missing the message of what your DD is saying, because it sounds to me that she is whining. I'd like to change this, so I think we should make a plan for how to help me better hear what she is saying, and to help her express herself without whining."

Is it possible that your GF's DD puts her worst foot forward around you? So the bratty kid you see is a totally different person than the sweetheart her mom is used to? Here are two common reasons for that:
Do GF and her DD need more one-on-one time? (She may feel jealous of you and just need to connect with her mom)
Do you and GF's DD need to work on a better relationship that is independent of her mom? (She may feel like you're an outsider and need to feel closer to you)

"Do GF and her DD need more one-on-one time? (She may feel jealous of you and just need to connect with her mom)
Do you and GF's DD need to work on a better relationship that is independent of her mom? (She may feel like you're an outsider and need to feel closer to you)"

I'd recommend both of these. But, If I were you, I'd sit down with GF and have a talk about communication. It's a huge red flag when someone responds to anything negative with a retort instead of problem solving.

When she says, 'but your kid .... ', you can tell her 'I'd love to discuss my kids' behavior but right now we need to address this problem with yours.' (or some way of putting the focus back on the issue, not attacking each other's kids. even if there is validity to both of your claims.. it solves nothing to throw blame)

Typically the behavior is only when the Mom is around. I've had her myself and with my girls and she is well behaved. I am subtle when I do bring up the subject. I've tried different approaches but usually the Mom ends up mad. There is little discipline from the Mom. And I've been told I have to earn the right (marry) before I can have any say myself. The Mom does see the daughter is bratty and has made a little more effort to correct it but not enough in my opinion. Sometimes I just can't take it and leave. But if we end up marrying I can't just walk out can I?

Mom and daughter spend lots of time together. While there was some jealousy at first I don't see much any more.
Having a better relationship with the daughter is something I think would help. Definitely a good idea.

I have this feeling that if we move forward with marriage she will not "have my back" with discipline. Either that or the SD ends up hating me for bringing discipline in the house. Don't know what to do. Like I said, I truly love this woman.

"I have this feeling that if we move forward with marriage she will not "have my back" with discipline."

Maybe you and Mom could write a set of family rules that outline acceptable and unacceptable behavior? Then, there would be a clear set of expectations, that apply to all family members equally (only the cat is exempt at our place - LOL). FDH and I made a set of rules together and they've helped a lot with that his son can't try to play us off one another and that we have to "have each other's backs" because the rules are there, plain as day, for all to see.

If you need to have set rewards and consequences, do so, and make sure that you and mom are both on board to never cave. But, IMO, for most kids, just a set of guidelines to follow is sufficient.

Try to keep them as DOs not DON'Ts (ie: "Keep your hands and feet to yourself" instead of "No hitting or kicking") if you do this, and make sure they reflect your family members. For example, FDH's son is rarely whiny, but he climbs all over everything and had been known to throw video game controllers, so we don't really need "Ask for things politely" (aka "No whining") but we do need "Treat things like furniture and electronics properly" (aka "Don't break stuff").

When we made the rules, we talked with him about each rule and gave examples of doing it wrong and doing it right. So for "Accept it when you donÂt get your way or you have to share" we said "Let's say there's only one cookie left. Are we following the rules if we all share it? What about if Dad wants the whole cookie to himself - is Dad following the rules if he stomps off to the bedroom to slam the door and cry?"
Now we can just say "Are you following the rules?" when he's not behaving himself, and get him to figure out which rule he's breaking.

It's been REALLY effective for us, and maybe it could help with your situation?

If you spend some time here reading the other posts, MANY, MANY of the problems posted by others are some variation of this same theme: StepParent doesn't like how the child is behaving and/or how the BioParent is parenting. And these problems can add alot of strain to a marriage -- even taking it over the breaking point.

I'd urge you to take a step backwards and try to determine how much of the problem is the child and how much of it is her mother's parenting. Because good, consistent parenting can work wonders with most children -- but poor parenting can turn a 10-year old whiny spoiled kid into a teenage nightmare.

But I certainly wouldn't move forward with the marriage right now until these issues are well under control.

Teenage nightmare is where I think this is headed if nothing changes. GF knows her daughter's bahavior isn't good. But seems to justify it for a variety of reasons. Namely "the ex was a bum and I did the best I could". But she has said she's allowed her daughter to get to this point by not being consistent. I've tried to reason with the GF about potential problems in the teenage years if the daughter does not learn the concept of NO and the concept of concequences for certain actions. Usually her response is something like, "you see church kids get in trouble" or "well behaved kids getting pregnant" or "I turned out ok". My response is that's all true but the odds of a teenager being "good" increase significantly if they are equipped to make the right decisions. The marriage idea is certainly on hold right now.

And I've been told I have to earn the right (marry) before I can have any say myself. If neither one of you had kids, and you were planning on a family after you got married, surely you would discuss parenting philosophies and try to find out if you were on the same wavelength before getting married?

There are real and significant disadvantages to dating/marrying someone with children, but it seems to me there's also at least one significant advantage; you know ahead of time how the person parents. People without kids (including myself) have all these nice and wonderful ideas about how we should parent or how we would parent or how we will someday parent, but like most things you haven't actually done, they're just nice ideas. You get to see what she actually does.

She has a point; just like you don't get to decide for example how someone you're "just dating not married to" spends her money, you don't get to decide how she parents. But if there are significant differences between how you handle your finances, it would be wise to address them before any discussion of marriage not after your finances are comingled. Parenting differences are at least at important.

When I bring the behavior up my girlfriend gets super defensive and immediately starts pointing out my daughter's faults. I have to admit my tolerance level is not very high. Are your standards different for your own children than hers? Are her standards different for hers than yours? Or do you just accept different levels of brattiness?

How do you react when she brings up your daughters' faults? How often are your girls with you and your GF? How old are your girls?

My DD can be whiny, bratty, and mouthy as well; especially when she has PMS and I've been dealing with it for 4 long years now, and I know that it's not going away. Just another point to ponder.

Good points. However, waiting until marriage before having a say seems like an experiment to me. Why not test the waters first before making a significant commitment like marriage?

That's the biggest issue we have. My standards are different that hers. She allows far more of what I would consider unacceptable behavior. I have to admit at times I'm just speechless with what this girl says and does to her mom. All I can do is look at GF in a way like "are you going to let her do that?"

GF is telling me I need to loosen up and that I'm too uptight. That I'm too rules oriented. While that could be true to some degree I would challenge anyone to say this child does not need more discipline before it's too late.

I listen when she brings up things about my girls. And I tell her more often than not that she's right. My girls are 11 and 7. All of us spend quite a bit of time together and all three girls are doing wonderful. They have a blast together. It's only when Mom comes around that she turns into what I described in my opening statement.

my niece (6) is rather difficult to deal with espcially when her mom is around, same was her older brother...In our family it comes from my brother and SIL never saying NO to their daughter. If they do, she cries and they let her do whatever. she is a sweet little girl but she manipulates her parents.

MOM has to step up and teach her DD how to behave before it is too late. If you plan on marrying talk about parenting now, not after the wedding.

"And I've been told I have to earn the right (marry) before I can have any say myself."

Is this a manipulation to get you to marry her? In other words, you have no right to say anything unless you marry her? That's a little disturbing if she means it that way. Discipline is something that she is going to have to (as the parent) take control of. Whether you try to implement it now or after marriage, the child will still see you as the bad guy that is making rules. She won't care whether it is because you are the new husband. In fact, she may even resent that. She may also resent YOU if her mom starts to implement discipline. Just the mere fact that her mom decides to start disciplining her now that you are involved could be interpreted by the child as 'you are making my mommy do this.' Don't be surprised if that happens.

The child knows what she can get away with around mom and she isn't going to change unless mom changes and makes it clear to her that the changes are because she hasn't been doing the right thing and not because you are making her. Your various posts are littered with red flags and even though you love her, if she doesn't have enough respect for you to recognize that you have a problem with this and if she isn't willing to work on it with you, then I don't see much chance for a successful relationship. There may be other issues that are even more important and the two of you need to be a team, whether there are kids involved or not.

I agree with quirk. You are at an advantage that you can see how she parents and you can decide that you can't be with someone that isn't a good parent. You can keep making excuses for why she's wonderful and how much you love her but if you have a problem with how her child behaves around her and she isn't willing to address the problem, it's not going to get any better.

"My standards are different that hers. She allows far more of what I would consider unacceptable behavior. I have to admit at times I'm just speechless with what this girl says and does to her mom. All I can do is look at GF in a way like "are you going to let her do that?"

GF is telling me I need to loosen up and that I'm too uptight. That I'm too rules oriented. "

Just because her parenting style is different or her tolerance level is higher than yours doesn't mean she is not a good parent. It may well mean that you are not a good match.

Not everyone thinks that there should be restrictions on what a child is allowed to say to their parents. My children were often argumentative, and have no such restrictions, and the ones that are grown have grown up to be very responsible adults of whom anyone would be proud.

I have to agree with TOS. DD did not have too many rules that she had to follow and she was argumentative. She is a well adjusted adult now. Unless children do something unacceptable and harmful like bully other children, beat them up, steal, lie etc some parents just have to ease up a bit. I do not know what exactly is your GF's DD doing that is bad. Maybe you can tell us what it is?

It is hard for us to determine if she is a good parent without knowing the details. i don't think that strict parenting is the same as good parenting. I can bring bunch of examples what my SIL does and it is not a very healthy parenting, but you did not give us any details here.

Good morning everyone and thanks for the insights. Imamommy, that's a big fear of mine. SD comes along and suddenly her world changes and she resents me. I've seen some of this already. I've heard her make comments like, "you're only doing this because J__ is here". The daughter has a problem with anyone who corrects her. I've also heard her say "they are not the boss of me" and thinks everyone who gets on her her is "mean". GF says she is addressing the behavior but there are times when I think she just doesn't want to deal with it and lets it go. Consistency is definitely not there.

Theotherside, I hear what you are saying and there is some truth to that. We are just different in this area. But I don't think I'm being unreasonable to point out basic behavior problems. This girl at times is plain disrespectful. And while there is nothing wrong with expressing an opinion (being argumentative) this girl argues everything that comes out of GF mouth. Literally, I think GF could say "the sky is so blue today" and the daughter would say either "no it's not" or "you don't know". It drives me nuts not to be able to say anything. But as Iamommy pointed out that will probably go over like a lead ballon when I do.

Bottom line is GF is saying she recognizes and is addressing the behavior. And that I will have some authority in my own house. But in the back of my mind I'm fearful of not getting supported, getting overruled or being resented by the SD. All are no good and will lead to a failed marriage. I don't want to go through that again.

OK finedreams...

DD lies.....a lot
DD seldom does what is asked, often says no and GF has to ask a number of times
DD relentlessly begs/whines EVERY time GF says no to something until DD gets what she wants
DD does not respect the authority of any adult
DD often demands the GF to do this or that and throws a fit if GF doesn't

I realize there is a certain level of loosening up I need to do. And some of the behavior is "just being a kid". I'm working on that. And I totally agree that strict parenting is not good parenting. I'm not a proponent of strict parenting. (Although my Ex is). I'm actually concerned about my girls for that reason!! I just don't know how to handle this situation. Is it my issue? Is it GF's issue? Sounds like both!!

sounds like GF is parenting out of guilt, she is afraid to upset her DD. How about girl's father? can her be of any help or he is out of the picture?

"DD relentlessly begs/whines EVERY time GF says no to something until DD gets what she wants"

Your GF needs to realize that if her DD eventually gets what she wants, GF is 'teaching' her to beg relentlessly because she knows that in the end, she WILL get it. It will take a long time and a lot of NO's to reverse the child from this way of thinking. I am guilty of 'giving in' and didn't realize I was teaching my kids that if they keep asking and bug me enough, I'd give them what they wanted. Now, I have two grown kids that still try to wear me down sometimes. (and my 18 year old gives me the 'you are only saying that because of your DH.' so it doesn't matter how old they are, they don't like anyone coming in and ruining the good thing they got going) It's really on your GF to correct this or if you stay together, you are going to have to accept that this is how she is. You can't change her, she has to change it herself. I'm constantly telling my kids that 'yeah, I messed up when you were younger and I let you get away with things I shouldn't have, but this is how it is now.' and when they BLAME my husband, I tell them that even though that is how they feel, the reality is that I want to do the right thing and yes, my husband supports that, but I am not doing anything I don't want to do. In other words, my husband is not 'making' me. She needs to stress that to her kid and she has to be the one that takes the lead and be in it 100%.

I'd recommend a parenting class for her so she can hear an impartial view on how her parenting is going to affect her child, whether you stay together or not. If she doesn't realize the problems that what she is doing now is going to create in years to come, she will someday be asking herself, 'what did I do wrong?' It really has nothing to do with you at all and the only thing you have to decide is if you are willing to deal with it. But first you have to determine how committed she is to parenting her child and to your needs. and tos is right, it may just be a difference of parenting styles or standards.. I didn't mean to imply that she is a bad parent. What I meant was that if she isn't the type of parent you would choose for your own kids, then you have the option of seeing that now, not after you have kids with her. Good/Bad parent labels are subjective anyways.

I think you're right. I've thought that too. The father is no help. In fact I've encouraged the GF to get sole custody because he's breaking nearly every rule in the divorce decree. DD has been exposed to way more than a 10 year old should.

it happens a lot when one parent is completely out of the picture, the other parent feels guilty and is afraid to upset their kids.

maybe you can talk to GF that the fact dad is no help is not her fault and it does not mean she should be overly permissive parent just because dad is never there.

I wonder if girl needs counseling and also maybe GF needs some too, maybe even together with her daughter.

Now when I say that dad is not involved, I understand why mom is parenting the way she does, very typical. She is trying to compensate her child for what she is missing. She feels that kid already suffering and mom should not make her life any harder. I think some form of counseling might help.

I have to agree with Fine here. It sounds like there any several issues at hand between mom and daughter that could use some 'fixing.' Mom needs to learn it will not damage DD for life to not get what she wants all the time. . . . it does more harm than good in fact! DD will understand this in time, but right now she is a kid at the age where she only thinks of herself. If mom can realize that she is not to blame for her ex's poor parenting and that her compensating for it isn't actually fixing that problem it's creating another, there may be hope. Could you suggest the 2 of you talk to a child psychologist for advice? Perhaps the doc will then see that mom and daughter could use a hand figuring this all out.

Doesn't hurt to try.

Thanks all. I appreciate the discussion and comments. I've got some thinking to do for sure. Justnotmartha, that's a great recommendation but I'm afraid GF would go ballistic no matter how I frame the suggestion. As I mentioned early on, she's quite defensive.

Perhaps if you frame your suggestion of a visit to a child psychologist as in issue on your part rather than on your GF's part:
"GF, our group dynamic isn't working for me; we can't go on like this. I don't think we should consider marriage until I can get some help. Certainly if something doesn't change we would ultimately be happpier apart. I think fresh eyes might help me to see how I can be happier in our potential family. Will you help me in this?" Keep saying the whole issue might be your fault (even if you believe it isn't; it may stop setting off GF's defense mechanism) and you're willing to try whatever the child psychologist suggests, especially if GF will help you in that.
If GF persists in going down the road she is set on then however much you think you are "good together" both of you you are bound for a life of unhappiness for as long as you continue to put up with it. I don't imagine GF enjoys continual arguments about her DD's behavious any more than you do.

Whithja,
Just because *GF is telling me I need to loosen up and that I'm too uptight. That I'm too rules oriented* Doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with you as a parent either. Ask yourself these?

*Would you allow your daughters to demand untill they got their way?
*Would you allow your daughters to throw fits?
*Would you allow your daughters to continually lie to you?
*Would you allow your daughters to be downright rude and disrespectful to adults including your GF?

In short would you allow them to behave the way she does? Frankly I would be embarrased of my parenting if (were Step, long Story) my adopted twin daughters carried on like that. And marriage isn't going to magically change anything. Your Girlfriend is already playing the *My Kid Your Kid* game, She thinks you should be the one to *loosen up* and she flies off the handle at the mine mention of anything to do with these problems. You work these things out before marriage not after the rings are on the fingers. Your Girlfriend Sounds as though she wants you to all the compromising, her child to be able to act anyway she wants and and that ring on her finger.
IMHO that's unfair to you but ultimately most unfair to your girls. Think long and think hard.

Update
We agreed to get some family counseling and all seemed to be going well. That is until I told GF that I said ok to my ex staying at my condo because she and our girls were moving from the house we had to a new one. Due to the way the closings were they didn't have a place to stay and I thought it was the right and decent thing to do. Of course I wasn't there but GF went ballistic. To the point the engagement ring was handed back to me. GF has since apologized and said she wants to work things out but I told her I needed some time to get my thoughts together on this. I'm just not sure I want to continue our relationship despite my feelings for her. Seems like constant turmoil over things outside of just her and I.

Pack the ring and the rest of your Sh1t and move on ....

You are living together but you still have your own place?
Hint #1 you're not ready

She threw her engagement ring at you
Hint #2 she's not ready

You did right by your kids and she went ballistic?
Hint #3 Neither of you are ready

Anyone can have differences over discipline, and I usually have more sympathy for the custodial parent. But what bothers me is where you did the right thing to help out your children (and it incidentally helped your X), she went ballistic. FRankly any guy who did what you did would impress me.

We aren't living together. The GF and I each have our own place. Like you said, I thought I was doing right, and still do. I've got more thinking to do but at the moment my head is telling me to move on but my heart is aching.