Have you guys ever heard of Parental alienation?It sounds like thats exactly what she's doing to these kids.There are alot of articles and resources available on the web about this issue.
Maybe you should leave the house as soon as they came over.Better yet,tell your husband he can pick them up-spend time alone with them wherever and take them back home after that.If they aren't going to respect or listen to you then you should not be alone with these kids for half a sec! I would make sure that i am around my husband ALL THE TIME when they are there,that way he could be a witness to their constant abuse.So he can't say anything when you decide to leave him to deal with his kids alone,while you go somewhere else.
I never hit my children or my stepkids.But then again,none of them has ever trated me like this.But i do know that I would not have been able to control myself if one of my stepchildren bit me or pulled my hair.I am sorry,its called "self defense" they attacked you.They aren't gonna die from a swift smack in the mouth....Although it won't teach anything positive,it will show them that you aren't going to put up with any physical abuse from them.I mean whats gonna happen when these kids are 15?

If I left the house when they "came over" I would have to find someplace else to live. (gave me a chuckle, thanks) They live with us full-time BM visits with them 2 nights a week.

And SD was "warned" if you "do anything like that again expect it back" her answer..... what, what did I do???

I know its not her "fault" she acts this way BM puts the ideas in her head... I just wish BM would stop torturing her kids. I want to smack the mother in the mouth when her children say "mommy said".

I am debating on whether or not to send BM "divorce poison" in the mail. But I don't think it would do any good. if it could be left on voicemail or books on tape she might listen to it.

Oh Cawfe -- How awful for you! Sorry, but your SKids' BioMom has got to be one of the worst!

Have you tried the very simple and direct "Your mommy's wrong. You DO have to listen to me and I DO have the authority to hand out whatever discipline I think is appropriate." Of course, this speech is best given by BOTH parents so its abundantly clear that you have their father's full and unconditional support on this.

WE have done all the dad's rules mom's rules: I am the adult in the house and when daddy isn't here I am standing in for him. When I say something its both me and daddy saying it. And you're mother is wrong I can and will punish you if you misbehave. Mommy doesn't make the rules at this house.

If she would just stop telling them idiotic stuff. I probably wouldn't have any issues ... other than digging holes !!!

Last summer BM would call me on the phone to talk to the kids when they were at her house because they wouldn't behave for her ... now I can't "tell them what to do". Sad thing is I had more power on the phone than she had in person. She keeps trying to take away any control I may have. And the kids are the ones who suffer.

SD came off the bus with "an 8 yo attitude" My mother said you can't punish me today for what I did yesterday. She said you shoulda punished me yesterday. I said I didn't punish you daddy did. Either way someone will be sitting in your room for what you did yesterday either you or your mother, so if she thinks you don't deserve to be punished then she better come sit in your room for you. Stomped all the way up the road went right to her room. Came out a couple times with homework questions and right back in.

Guess she figured her mother wasn't going to take a punishment for her. So she might as well do it.

Can you threaten to take them to BM's? I'd think that would be the scariest of scenarios for them. Just think, kids, Cawfe is off again...but imagine the mysteries you'll be living...Will mom remember to pick you up from school?...Will mom pack you a lunch????....Will mom make you dinner?????? This is sounding interesting, isn't it kids? What a thrill a minute - now you can't get that at the movies, but you could live it full time if YOU DON'T SHAPE UP AND NOW! CAWFE IS THE BOSS IN HER HOUSE - GOT IT?

At least DH supports you. It is sick that BM won't lay off or just allow these kids to respect you. Makes me sick! I'm hoping legal and Child psych. interventions will put this overgrown, immature child in her place!

And, you didn't overreact to the holes. They know the rules and now the consequences. I had a lot of trouble w/ my baby digging up my new landscape so I put in a sand box and THAT'S THE ONLY PLACE ANYONE CAN DIG! If something happened to their dog or you broke your ankle, they'd be all tears and such. Don't think you overreacted - you do a great job.

Go Cawfe!
Dana

Here is an article i think you may find helpful,i think its pretty informative.

Competition works both ways.After the remarriage, the former spouse can support the children's relationship with their stepparent. Or he or she may try to drive a wedge between the children and their new stepparent. When the former spouse is still single, he or she may fear that the children will prefer the two-parent household because it more closely approximates the intact family that was lost with the divorce. Driven by such fear, the former spouse may attempt to compete by undermining the child's sense of love and security in the remarried household.

Often the nonresidential parent fears that the children will come to love the stepparent more. This fear is exacerbated if the children begin using terms similar to mom or dad when referring to their stepparent. Because younger children are more apt to seek and accept a quasi parent-child relationship with the stepparent, they are particularly at risk for exposure to bashing and brainwashing of the stepparent. And they are more likely to be influenced by negative programming because of their increased suggestibility (Ceci & Bruck, 1995). For example, a father may tell his young son that his stepfather was sent by Satan. Even if the boy does not believe this, he begins to feel uneasy in his stepfather's presence.

Older children may feel more initial reserve and resentment toward a stepparent. Instead of helping their children adjust to the transition, competitive exspouses sometimes welcome their children's nascent negative feelings about the stepparent and use these transitional feelings as a foundation for a campaign of alienation. When confronted about their manipulations, such parents will usually reply with some variant of, "I can't help the way my child feels about her stepparent. But I'm not going to stop her from expressing her true feelings."

One mother with whom I worked demonstrated how parents can put their children's interests above their competitive feelings. Patty worked hard to resist strong impulses to disparage her daughter Rachel's stepmother. Through a combination of inadequate legal representation, convincing lies told by her husband, and a bad court verdict, Patty's involvement with Rachel was drastically curtailed. When her husband remarried a week after the divorce, he delegated most of the responsibility for raising Rachel to his new wife. Patty naturally resented the fact that another woman was raising the child that she had carried in her womb for 9 months and taken care of for 5 years. Her resentment acted as a filter when it came to evaluating the stepmother's parenting skills. Criticisms came easily; positive thoughts about her rival took decided effort. When Rachel complained to her mother about the stepmother's treatment, Patty felt some secret pleasure which she kept secret. Though her rivalous feelings were gratified, she knew that the stepmother was doing a lot for Rachel. And she knew it would not benefit Rachel to develop a bad relationship with her stepmother. So Patty listened to Rachel's complaints, but did not respond eagerly. As far as the girl was concerned, bad-mouthing her stepmother was not the way to her mother's heart. Patty set an inspiring example of a woman whose love for her child outweighed strong impulses to engage in destructive criticism.

It is easy to appreciate how tempting it can be for some parents to try to undermine their children's relationship with their stepparent. Therapists can help alleviate destructive competition by emphasizing the deep foundation of attachment between most parents and children and reminding parents of the many experiences that formed the foundation of the relationship. Parents can be invited to consider their own attachment histories. In most cases, new affectionate relationships do not replace earlier attachments. Most of us retain our love for our parents regardless of how many other people we come to love. Without negative programming, children's new relationships will not usually undermine existing ones. It may help parents to talk to other parents whose children have maintained strong love for them while still getting along well with the stepparent.

Adults who attempt to foster alienation must be helped to see that instigating and supporting conflict between the children and a parent or stepparent will make life more difficult for the children. This will, in turn, make life more difficult for all the adults, because they will have to cope with angry or depressed children and the associated behavioral sequelae.

An integral part of Gardner's formulation of the concept of PAS is that the disturbance results from a combination of parental brainwashing and the child's own contributions. Josh Q.'s behavior is a good example. In the case of remarriage, a child may join in a campaign of denigration for several reasons. As already mentioned, the child may be capitulating to group pressure in the service of aligning with the new family. The child may also be attempting to reduce inner conflict experienced as a result of the remarriage. Such inner conflict may be related to loyalty conflicts or difficulty accepting the remarriage and the stepparent.

The child who feels caught between two homes may try to resolve the conflict by declaring a clear allegiance to one household. This dynamic can result in alienation from either parent. A child who is anxious or angry about the remarriage may channel these feelings into unwarranted denigration of the remarried parent and stepparent, or the child's alienation may express the disappointment of reconciliation wishes that have been clashed by the remarriage. Most children of divorce harbor strong wishes for their parents to reconcile (Warshak & Santrock, 1983). Regardless of the child's underlying motivation, if the favored parent welcomes the child's allegiance or passively accepts the child's estrangement from the other parent and fails to actively promote the child's affection for the other parent, the child may cling to this maladaptive solution.

A central goal of therapy with alienated children in remarried families is to help them appreciate that they do not have to choose sides. We can try to help them appreciate the benefits that come from avoiding unhealthy alliances, while working with the parents to support this concept.

Amen to that! Thanks for sharing.

Are you aware that Gardner's "parental alienation syndrome" has been discredited:

http://sisyphe.org/article.php3?id_article=2438

An article from an American Bar Association publication:
http://www.unitedforjustice.com/Hoult.pdf

Gardner made numerous statements defending pedophilia as "normal." I found his statements horrifying.

http://www.stopfamilyviolence.org/ocean/host.php?folder=63&page=373

I found out a few minutes ago that Gardner had committed suicide a few years ago, by stabbing himself multiple times in the neck and chest. One has to wonder about his sanity.

Whatever your position on the influence of the biological mother on the children's behavior, citing Gardner's theories certainly does nothing to bolster that position.

It's not just Gardner who espouses that theory - refer this site: http://www.parentalalienation.com.au/aMMS.html, including excerpts from the Journal of Family Violence (see here for info about the journal: http://www.springerlink.com/content/104903/).

This article in particular discusses the theory and provides an extensive list of references: http://www.parentalalienation.com.au/aMMS.html

I understand that where the theory enters abuse territory, it would need rigorous questioning and work before being accepted or rejected. But some of the "milder" behaviour described, like encouraging conflict, is possibly worth some thought, at least.

Theories or not ... my SCs BM is not doing anything "in the best interest of the children"....

She encourages her children to misbehave gives them the power to misbehave. Do you think it will stop at me? they are still young .... if she doesn't teach them to listen to authority figures in their lives where will they end up?

These instances are NOT an everyday occurence. On the days they are going to BM's they "act up" figuring they cannot be punished. Thinking it will all be forgotten when they walk out the door. Some days worse than others. My SC have come a long way.

We have overcome lots of issues and still more to go. I pick my battles, win that one and move on to another.

PAS or not who cares ... what she does is wrong. Would she tell them a teacher, principal, coach any other adult in their life can't discipline them? Would she tell them to tell any other adult you're not my mother! Hubby has said umpteen times ... "I am your father" blah blah blah.

She "backs them up" when they complain about being punished ... but if they "act up" at her house... who does she call to get them to behave? Who has to go get them at her house when "they don't listen to her"? We used to go get them... we used to talk to them and get them to behave.. now we say ... You are the adult "make them" do what you want them to do!!!

The 11 yr old must have had a wake up call after his last ourburst of the "I hate you's" because I went off on a tangent ... let's be clear do you hate me personally or do you hate rules and consequences... if you truly hate me then nothing I can do for you will ever make you happy so I will not try.... I haven't heard "I hate you" in more than a month from him. He still complains but hasn't uttered "I hate you".

redpepper ... that describes BM almost to a T. The only difference I can see in most PAS situations is that BM is the NCP. So she can't limit the fathers visitation. If we told her she wasn't allowed to see her children she would pretend to put up a fight. But she would be happy happy to tell the kids "daddy won't let me see you". She has pulled that one in the past prior to court ordered visition. She didn't bother to come by or see them ... "have a judge order me to see my kids!!"

The best was when she picked them up to bring them to school ... thats it 20 minutes every morning... to "show the school" how involved she was!!! what a joke!.

I feel so sorry for these kids. Even if Biomom doesnt care for them, that wasnt their choice. Going off on a tangent. Maybe you are just stressed off. It seems to me that you resent having these children around. So if you are correct, they have a biomom who doesnt care and a SM who is resentful.

I do not beleive SM should be disciplining. I think until there is a bond, that should be up to dh. The dog/tunnel incident appened on Sunday? Wasnt he around?

You knows its funny.... This is my therapy... I can complain here about BM. Get it all out so that when hubby comes home I am not rip roaring about what a low-life BM is. Because I have made the mistake of saying ... "what a wonderful marriage you must have had" kissing her a$$ all the time.

I kept a journal of all events but I was afraid one of the kids would find it. So thats when I started looking online for a place to vent. I keep a log on the computer of pick up and drop off times. The children are not allowed to use "my computer". ... I still keep a journal, but a shorter version of events.

I don't care what disorders BM exhibits... what she does is wrong. I don't care what theory she fits or doesn't fit she is confusing her children for a lifetime. And not just against me and hubby. Having a disorder is like giving her an excuse to behave badly its still an excuse.

KK - Give Cawfe a break. She's doing nearly everything for these children and being actively undermined at every turn. Why wouldn't she be stressed?

As to Gardner, while he personally doesn't sound like a peach, and the extreme end of his theories may lack scientific validation, any parent who has experienced the type of treatment described in the article Dcubana posted can attest to the truth of it. Many, many BioParents attempt to undermine the child's attachment to the new StepParent as a way of shoring up their own vulnerable relationships. In its milder forms, I'd suspect it's more the norm than the exception. How to scientifically validate subtle undermining behavior by a BioParent in the privacy of his/her own home?

Look at what Cawfe's SKids' BioMom is doing.
KKNY is doing it to her Ex's GF.
My Ex did it to my husband.

Please KKNY do not defend this BM to me ... it won't do you any good. Yes it happend on a sunday so what?... and Yes I went off on a tangent so what?... Have you never yelled at the neighbors kid who did something stupid in your yard/house? You are a better mother/person than I am. Congrats. Your child and the neighbors kids must be perfect. Good for you.

Yes I do get stressed out because overall they are good kids but their "mother" encourages bad behavior. She doesn't tell then I can't cater to them. Only tells them I can't discipline them. Can't have it both ways. If they have to be at ________ practice and they are not ready to go I am supposed to wait for them to get ready with out saying anything. Supposed to be at school for 8 and its 7:45 and they are not ready and I supposed to wait?

You say until there is a bond..... we have a bond I don't complain about bonding I complain about what a piece of work their "mother" is. When they are with BM they call me about their day at school whats on the schedule for the next day THEY CAN RELY ON ME!!!! to know what is going on in their lives. Their "mother" is not interested.

Your situation is totally different than mine and you have no advice/support to offer me so please refrain from commenting.

I DO NOT RESENT MY STEPCHILDREN. I RESENT THEIR "MOTHER"
I AM THE ONE WHO TOOK THE CHILDREN TO BUY THEIR MOTHERS DAY GIFT. I AM THE ONE WHO SAT IN THE CARD AISLE FOR AN HOUR WHILE THE 3 OF THEM PICKED OUT A CARD FOR THEIR "MOTHER". I AM THE ONE WHO WRAPPED THEIR PRESENTS.

I am doing all the things a "mother" does so yes I have the right to discipline children in my care. I am NOT the babysitter, chauffuer, maid nor nanny.

Do me a favor describe what a "mother" is?

Oh that's right because she works and I don't she is exempt from parenting. But I can't parent either according to you ... So they should just parent themselves or wait until 5 pm when their father is home to parent them.

Theotherside-OMG!!!I wasn't aware that Gardner had commited suicide,and especially that he condoned pedophilia!!

I don't think i would have cited his work,had i known that-but regardless of his character flaws,i think he still made very intresting points on the subject of parental alienation and although i do agree that this may not be a disorder-he brought up alot of interesting facts.

The bottom line is children are "cought in the middle" of this conflict,and if the bio-mom really wants to make the step-parent miserable- she will do "just that" through her children.Its one big loyalty conflict.My children had therapy since the beggining of my marriage and this is something that we have been working with their therapist.

When my x was first in the picture after a 2 year dissapearing act,their behavior towards my husband became horrible.They felt that if they liked him they were somehow "betraying their dad" because he was trying to take over his role.Even though my husband never disciplined them or yelled at them-i guess living with him full time was enough to make them "perceive him" as trying to replace their dad.I was lucky that my x did not try to turn the kids against my husband,instead he encouraged them to be respectful and kind and that really helped them begin to "want to"bond.Unfortunetely,In the end my x ended up leaving because his significant other couldn't handle having to "share him" with my children and my involvement in her life.Luckily the kids had already accepted my husband and continued to want to build a relationship with him.I guess the main point i was trying to get across was that kids need to "feel free" to bond to their Step-parents,without having to feel they are betraying the other parent.If the parent is "purposely" trying to allign her children against the step-parents,9 times out of 10 that is exactly what they will do.
Therapy is the only solution to dealing with these stupid,immature x's.That way you can have a third party witness the harm that this is doing to the entire "family unit".

The children's therapist (or family therapist)can reccomend that she participate in their therapy.They could also reccomend to have her visits changed,or supervised until she is willing to act in the best "interest of her kids".The judges will always take an expert's advice very seriously.

Personally, I would not allow anyone to have this much control over my life.I think people like this need a big slap in the face,a "reality check" so to speak.If they really care about maintaining a relationship with their kids,they will need to learn to seperate their "personal feelings" and not allow them to influence their children's lives.

Its hard enough being a step-parent,you shouldn't have to deal with all this Drama from a vindictive, bitter x!!
My heart goes out to you, i know how draining these kind of problems can be.Just hang in there......(((BIG HUG)))

Yes, I agree w/ what you wrote, dcubana. You cited a specific and who can really argue w/ what you wrote? You want your kids to be respectful and well-mannered. PERIOD! So sorry the guy went off onto other crazy trains of thought, but the stuff you quoted was right on the money here! Again, his suicide is irrelevent regarding your other post.

Cawfe - I'm w/ you. This IS therapy and I've needed it - probably why I post so much and am new here. I should have joined AGES ago when the steps were much younger. Silly me, I thought I was kind of done w/ the big issues.

Yes, KWIM is know what I mean. Sorry, I've missed more than a few abbreviations here, too.

Anyway, teaching your children to be disrespectful of any elders, let alone the woman who is raising them is just plain out wrong. Bio moms can do so much for their children's emotional well-being by not making any civility towards the SM viewed as disloyalty to her.

I also think it would take a mental breakdown for me to not have custody of my kids. I'd have to be in an institution! These moms (my ex-SIL) was one like the one Cawfe deals with. Not willing to do it herself, but undermining me for taking over every inch of the way.

I think my friend going through the divorce will have her kids loving the OW as she is taking the high road, and no, it isn't the easy road esp. since the OW was a complete homewrecker. But, she doesn't want her kids conflicted over all of this. It's sad, but true. Meanwhile, Cawfe and I were pinned as homewreckers while the BM in my case was having the affair and Cawfe hadn't even met her DH! Go figure - it's all a matter of class, and some, obviously lack ANY!

Dana

I doubt that the kids will end up loving the OW. First, anyone who is willing to break up the marriage is unlikely to act lovingly toward the kids. Secondly, no matter how good an actress your friend is, any reasonably perceptive kid will be able to figure out how his mother feels about the OW. If they don't figure it out until they are adults, that would be a problem, because then they would feel betrayed by both parents. I think it is far better to be perfectly honest about one's feelings about the OW, and to explain why. Even very young kids can understand that it is wrong to "date" someone else while still married. That is not at all the same thing as telling them they should not love their father. After all you don't stop loving your children when they do something wrong.

I don't understand when people say that a step parent should not discipline child... would anyone in there right mind tell a babysitter you can watch my kids but dont get onto them if they are doing something bad... what is the difference for a step parent ... the word parent would suggest otherwise... aside from what good is it to teach a child only certain people are able to discipline them and others can not ... what kind of respect does that teach them to others even forgoing the step parent issue... I discipline my sk... hmph even last night I threatened to throw the play station in the garbage can if they did not stop fighting and cleaned up the wire mess they had made... they stared at me for a second (they tried to decide if I really would since their mom bought it for them) I told them I was absolutely serious and they did what they were asked to do.... No one can tell me a step parent should not be disciplining

I have a large tote with a lock on it for the video games and all the "stuff" I take away .... If you fight over it "it" gets taken away until you earn it back .... I took away game controllers as punishment (they were whipping each other with them) and BM went out and bought 2 brand new ones because she didn't think they deserved to be punished. I took those away too. "I don't care who bought it for you you use my electricity and my tv to play it."

Uhm, there's this small little read called, "Backtalking"; you are dealing with something graver, but the approach can be used with all kinds of situations of disrespect (always assuming that the children are mentally healthy). It has helped me a great deal with my stepkids. Granted, it sounds like I have a much milder situation, but I think it might have some helpful tips for you, cawfecup, to maintain your sanity. I know I found a lot of good stuff there...

Babysitters and stepparents should keep the kids safe and keep them from inflicting bodily harm on themselves and on others, and keep them from inflicting property damage. While it is perfectly ok to take a video game away temporarily if they are hitting each other with it, I doubt if any babysitter (or stepparent) in her right mine would throw it away without the permission of the purchaser.

Well, TOS, I think that when a BM loses custody for any legitimate reason - willingly or against her will, unless temporarily physically able to care for the kids/having a rough time moving around, etc. - and the children's father and his wife have custody, the BM cannot be the final word in disciplining the children. Sorry, but Cawfe has now taken over the role of the mother and I think in relinguishing custody, BM has to face the fact that she has allowed herself to be replaced in many respects. While a little gratitude would be nice, it's hardly expected as this is a touchy area and as much as she isn't willing to give the care needed to raise young children, she still must be a little envious of Cawfe.

As I often say, there's more to being a mother than giving birth. To me, a mother is the one you wake up in the middle of the night if you aren't feeling well, the one who cooks for you, cleans up after you, packs your lunch, helps w/ homework, shares your joy and your tears on a daily basis. While I doubt many of us SMs would truly throw away a toy, esp. if of any value, sometimes kids need a drastic measure to realize that actions have consequences. For BM to run out and buy more game controllers when they lost the originals due to bad behavior, she is sending a dangerous message to her kids. I'm sure she did it to look like the hero to the kids for a moment, but I think it's more important for children to know there are boundaries and to know exactly what is and isn't acceptable behavior.

About my friend going through the divorce. She is a gem of a person. I've never heard her raise her voice - she is beautiful both inside and out. To suggest she level w/ the kids about the OW is a tough pill to swallow. I mean, these kids are 4 and 6 - how on earth would you discuss this w/ children of those ages? She will one day have her say, much later, when the children ask why their parents split, etc. She hopes they are well into their teens when she has to be honest. For now, she is following the child psychologist's advice - allow them to enjoy everyone's company. It's less stressful on them. I think rather than viewing her as lying to them now, she is simply saying, "Have a great weekend w/ Daddy! I love you and I'll see you Sunday!" Imagine how conflicted they'd be if they knew their mother was upset each time they had visitation w/ their father? I think it would cause a lot of turmoil and they have enough adjustments to make w/o that added stress. As for the OW treating the kids well, I'm sure she's on her BEST behavior to impress their dad. I think he could be her meal ticket to a better life...so I doubt she'd rock that boat. Plus, her ex just passed away, so she may be feeling that her DD needs an instant family. I'm not sure how active he was in their lives or anything, and obviously, since this woman lost her last job for hitting on married men, she isn't the moral role model for anyone. But, I'm guessing she's pretty darned loving towards the father's kids - but, her true colors may yet surface. Time will tell.

She is not going to be able to be on her best behavior for ever. Sooner or later, possibly not until after she marries the guy, her true colors WILL surface. How are the kids going to feel when this woman who has pretended to be fond of them no longer wants them around, treats them poorly, yells at them, etc.? Then they will feel betrayed by ALL the adults in their lives, including their mother.

One of my kids once said that the worst thing parents can do to their kids is lie to them - for him, this was worse than having his father leave.

Even at 4 and 6, they can understand, "It is wrong for your father and "Susie" to date while he is married." Ignoring the situation does a disservice to the children. It is our responsibility as parents to teach our children right from wrong.

If he were in jail for theft, what would you tell the children? I would say something like, "Your father stole some money, which was wrong." It is important to teach children that wrong is wrong, but that love is permanent.

As to the ramifications of the biological mother not having custody, if you replaced "mother" with "father" I think a lot of men would be infuriated by your post. I don't know too many divorced fathers who think their ex-wife's new husband should be disciplining their kids, nor do I think they would take too kindly to the implication that they are unloving parents because they do not have custody.

I think we need to define discipline.... I have had this conversation with BM what is discipline? but never got a response.

With her buying controllers after they had been taken away as punishment... undermines the fact that they should not be beating each other up. What she said by buying them was cawfe doesn't matter you can do whatever you want who is she to take your stuff away. I am your mother and I said you could have controllers. She got to play hero again.

When they are beating each other up ... what am I supposed to do call the police because they are physically assaulting each other? or do I break them up and take stuff away??

If they hit another child say at school the way they beat each other up there would be serious consequences ... why can't there be serious consquences at home too??? Its ok because they are siblings? If they are bullies at home what will stop them from being a bully at school??

TOS: I have to respectfully disagree with you on what is appropriate to tell small children about their parents divorce.
Of course it's awful when a marriage breaks up, and it's painful when it's due to one spouse cheating on the other. However, to tell young children this is scarring. I know personally. My parents divorced, and I knew exacty why. My mother was the one who had the affair. Trust me, I never let her live it down. I never should have had that information.
Also, please keep in mind that several of the SM's here have been falsely accused of being the OW, and it was extremly damaging to their relationship with their Skids. Should they in turn tell the children "your mommy lies" No, of course not, because we are the adults. Children need to be protected from all of the awful things their parents do. They don't need the information. Teaching them right from wrong can be done without pointing fingers at the other parent.
My SS's BM was an abusive parent and spouse. I would not think of highlighting that for him. He get's it, and has dealt with it on his own terms. He doesn't need to hear about it from his father or me. In fact, if he did, it would further damage his recovery. I can teach my SS truth, right from wrong, and forgiveness without ever disparaging his mother. Even though the truth is ugly, it doesn't mean he has to hear it.

I disagree. I think it is wrong to lie to them. I also believe it is very damaging not to tell them the real reason, because much of the time the children end up believing they somehow caused their parents to divorce. Children who know their parents divorced because of infidelity (or abuse, or because one was gay, or because of alcoholism or gambling, etc.) do not blame themselves.

So hubby should tell his children that their mother is a lying, cheating, drunk, wh___. And that she left daddy for another man who doesn't want/like kids?

How is not telling them personal information about your marriage lying to them? It's not like someone is making up a fabrication of why they divorced. Do you really think that children should know everything that goes on in their parents marriage? I don't because I believe that to be more scarring. I experience that first hand.
TOS: If your argument holds any water, then my husband should tell his children that the reason he divorced their mother is becuase she is a mean person, a liar, a thief, and who was abusive to her children, her husband, and her family.
I don't think that they could possibly benefit from that information. As a matter of fact, I can guarantee that if my DH told his sons that information, they would be very upset, and it would affect their relationship with their mother in a very negative way. It's not our job to highlight their mother's shortcomings, but to foster a positive relationship with her.
So rather than tell them what they probablly already know about their mother (kids are very smart), we foster a positive environment for them to grow their relationship with her.
See, if you tell children things that are personal and private about your relationship with the other parent, you are opening up a can of worms called "he said, she said" and the only one's who get hurt, are the kids. They get put in the middle of a war of words. If my DH told his boys all their mother's transgressions, she would lose it, and potentially say untrue, mean things about their father in order to "defend" herself and he actions. And that wouldn't be good for anybody. I just don't see how that could possibly be in the best interest of the children.
Trust me, there are times where my DH has been tempted to say something to the kids. I've gone so far as to discuss this with our family counselor, who said that by sharing that information with the kids will only burden them, and make them feel worse and unloved by their mother.
I just don't buy that it could do any good.

I dont believe in lying to my children either... I feel that if I ever expect them to come to me with difficult things in there life and be open and honest with me then I need to do the same with them.... However, that being said there is a such thing as diplomacy even with children especially with respect to their age... My daughter is 4 and her father killed himself... will I tell my 4 yr old daughter that Im sorry your dad isnt here because he killed himself two days before your birthday...NO!! I tell her that he was so sad that he isnt alive anymore but daddy is in your heart... when she is old enough I will tell her the full truth.... the same can be said for spilling out the transgressions of the ex marriage... no child should be told denegrating things about the parent no matter how hard it is... if you really need to defend yourself or to 'not lie' be more general like

Okay sweets here is the real deal with no lying.... the reason that mommy and daddy are not together anymore is because mommy made some bad decisions and it wasnt best for us to live together anymore...she loves you and I love you but in the end I had to do what was best for all of us your mommy included.... and if they ask more questions about what she did or anything... say that is not for me to tell you one day when she is ready to tell you ... she will ... in the mean time know that mommy is hurting and that not all of the things that she says are true... you have to follow your heart and make your own decisions about how you feel about me and about step parent and wether we make you happy and give some positive examples of things both do for the kids ...

Anyways... my point is there is no need to say bad things to defend yourself... just say the good that you do...
At least in my humble ol opinion :-)

Cawfe,

My feelings exactly. In cases like this, it's just too damaging to do that. Not to mention, it will make them feel unloved by the transgressing parent.
Often in cases of divorce (contensious divorce particularly) one feels justified in sharing negative information about the other spouse because it's "true". However, what isn't being taken into consideration is that the information (true or not) is more damaging than just keeping quiet.
There are cases right on this board of SM's being "villianized" by an ex spouse due to their own emotional issues. So then again, who suffers? The children do. Quite frankly, it's sickening. Either way, the children are put in the middle of their parents mental games and are forced to chose "who's right?" Mom or Dad?
That's not a truth any child needs to deal with.

You get it!
Diplomacy is everything with children. I'm soooo sorry for your loss. That is a prime example of how an event can be so damaging to a child. We have to be careful as to what we say so that we don't do even more damage.
As a SM, my son will tell me things about his mother that are not exactly things that are pleasant to hear. I can make a choice and respond to him with:
A. Yes, your mother is a liar
or
B. I'm sorry your struggling with Mom. Please remember she is your mother, and that she loves you, even if you're having a hard time right now.

Which do you think the BM would prefer I say? A is the truth, but B recognizes his feelings, and reminds him that he's still loved.
This falls on both sides of the story too. Bio or step, mother or father, diplomacy is the way to go in my opinion.

Thank you... and it is more her loss than mine... I found my hubby who is indeed my 'The One' and who is better dad to her than I could have dreamed for....