Its sad what your ex is trying to do. Maybe get a good counselor. They will be able to tell that your daughter is being "brainwashed" by her father and maybe there is something they can do. Also, have you tried talking to your ex and letting him know your know what he is doing?

Maybe even talking to your daughter and saying "I know that daddy does not like my fiancee. I think he is afraid that you will like him more than you do daddy. Me and you know how much you love daddy. And it is okay to like/love my fiancee too. We all love you and care about you. When daddy says mean things about me and my fiancee do not believe him. You know how when your angry you say things that are not true? Well daddy is doing the same thing. Sometimes when your mad or sad you do not act like you should. Hopefully daddy will get back to being happy and stop saying bad things."

At home try to stay positive with your daughter. Praise her as much as possible for positive behaviors. Maybe talk to her about her crying and about how important it is to tell the truth and set up some kind of a reward system, like if she goes 1 day without crying then she gets a special treat. Do the same for going a whole day with only telling the truth. The reward can be chosing a movie to rent, playing a game with just you and her, helping you make dinner, choosing what is for dinner, etc.

And for your fiancee, you need to make him understand that this behavior is not your daughter. It is the fault of her father filling her head and he needs to be patient.

when I first read this, it made me start to wonder.

Four year olds, even though they can be influenced against a person to an extent , USUALLY are not that hard to win over by spending time with the person. No matter how bad mommy or daddy says someone is, kids of that age live for the moment, and spending positive time with the person should have alleviated the crying , dislike, and distrust.

Kids that age also really do worry about losing the parent, so you are just going to have to be understanding on that one for a while.

I have to wonder if there isnt a reason the girl doesnt like the fiancee. Maybe he just doesnt know how to handle kids, maybe he is a little too strict, too fast, and maybe there is some other reason. I dont think its helping when you punish her for disrespecting him. I also have to wonder about the things your fiancee supposedly has said, that your 4 year old is lying about. 4 year olds dont usually lie about things like that. ITs older kids that seem to develop the lying.

I would be very cautious about taking this relationship to a marriage level until this situation is resolved . Maybe a professional counsellor for all of you would help find ways to ease the situation.

Its simplistic to blame it all on what your ex has said.

My SS went throuh a lot of this with the BM of my 4 yr old G-son, finally he filed to the court for them to BOTH go with g-son to counseling-court ordered and it helped wonders.

The counseling was well worth the $$, BM did not want to go or for her son to go however once they all did and she realized the court ordered counselor knew what was going on she stopped that.

I mean she does little things here and there but at 4 yr.s old my g-son was able to tell the counselor exactly what Mom & Dad were saying to him. I would recommend you do that. It was almost the same situation my SS was moving forward with his life and had a significant other and BM didn't like it and tried to get G-son to be disrespectful, though I have to admit my SS at first got angry and tell G-son mommy was being bad or jealous-Not helpful!!

Best of luck to you and keep us posted!

Actually 4 year old children can be very susceptible to divorce poison. And, you also have a new baby in the house. So, there could be lots of things going on. Buy the book "Divorce Poison" by Dr. Richard Warshak and see if anything fits, also find a counsellor as I am sure you are feeling quite overwhelmed by everything.

You miss the point.

Although it it certain that 4 year olds can be alienated by the actions of the other parent, what is NOT common in a 4 year old, is for the child to lie about what someone else says.

A typical alienated four year old would be afraid of moms fiancee. She would cry and cling and not want to go near him. But she would not normally be telling mom that fiance said, or did things the didnt do.

Some steparents, particularly guys, think they can just step in and do the heavy handed dad thing right off the bat. They try to become the disciplinarian, and a lot of them dont even have any experience with kids to know what is age appropriate behaviour.

I am suggesting that this fiance may have tried to move too fast, or may be a little hard on the girl, and that, combined with whatever dad is telling the girl, is resulting in the fear that is being mentioned.

I think only a counsellor will get to the bottom of it. Again, its simplistic to think that the cause is merely what the dad is saying, when there are so many other possibilities

Kimic - That's exactly what happened to me. My Husband (new guy - not EvilEx) is a wonderful man who adores children, and children adore him. He's a warm puppy kind of guy, and DS fell in love with him too. In fact, when I told DS that Hubby and I planned to get married, he was thrilled and said he wanted to marry Hubby too! So for a while, life was just wonderful - the perfect fairy tale.

Then EvilEx started to get insecure. He was hearing too many good things about "new Daddy" and started a smear campaign. Classic Divorce Poison (and I second the book recommendation). So after every visit with BioDad, DS would be aloof and eventually, rude to StepDad. StepDad would patiently rebuild the relationship with unwavering kindness and quality time, and things would improve until the next visit with BioDad. Then back to step one. If not worse -- two steps forward, three steps back. BioDad's divorce poison, loyalty games and mental manipulation won out over DS's own experiences and StepDad's kindness.

I tried talking to BioDad, but he denied doing some things and denied that the things he freely admitted doing were harmful. I suggested counselling - BioDad refused. Whenever StepDad did anything nice and DS appreciated it, BioDad would ramp up the poison until DS 'turned' again. DS eventually learned that any time he said anything favorable to BioDad about StepDad, BioDad would get angry and say mean things. Do DS stopped saying nice things.

I love my husband and consider our marriage to be very good and solid, but Hubby's relationship with my son is our weakest link. How much love can a stepparent be expected to give when the child gives nothing back? How can a stepparent 'assume the best' about a child when that child constantly 'assumes the worst' about the stepparent? Eventually, StepDad pulled back, just out of sheer self-preservation. How much rejection is a stepparent supposed to take?

If you can get your ex to agree to counselling, DO IT!
If you can't convince him, see if the court will order it.
With all due respect to Kathline (with whom I usually agree), it IS possible for a selfish BioParent to turn a child against even the best Steps if they try. I've seen it firsthand.

You miss the point Kathleen.

In what context are these "lies" occuring?

actually colleen,

I agree with you that kids can be turned against the other parent at any age.

However, the OP says....". She's starting to lie and say my fiance says things that aren't said."

That is not common behaviour for a 4 year old, even an alienated one. 4 year olds generally are incapable of sustaining a lie, or consistently lying that someone is saying something that they arent. An 8 year old might, to stir up trouble. Or a 12 year old. Its not within normal parameters of behaviour for a 4 year old to do so.

All I am suggesting is that perhaps this problem has more than one source.

A few more things jumped out at me. Firstly, OP says "I've tried to talk to her, I've tried taking things away from her for disrespecting him", and then a little later " I want her to be good with my fiance "

Now, call me stupid, but I dont think punishing a 4 year old for how she treats someone that she is being alienated not to like, is going help anything. ANd I wonder how much pressure this woman is feeling to make sure her child is good for the fiance. He admittedly is getting frustrated. OP doesnt say whether her fiance has other children with someone else.

Surely you do understand that sometimes stepdads, particularly when they havent had kids before, have unrealistic expectations about child behaviour, because they dont know better.

I am not saying this is the case, but it is a possible contributing factor. I do think BD is talking trash to the child, I just dont think thats the ONLY problem there.

As I said, its a bit simplistic to ONLY look at this as a clear case of BM alienating the child, without considering other possibilities.

About being disrespectful...
I think children and adults of all ages should have consequences for being disrespectful to others.
At age 4, I'm not sure that punishment is in order, but perhaps a "That was not a nice thing to say. Do you know why? I think you should apologize." would be appropriate. My niece is 4 and she has very nice manners (most of the time) because her parents enforce good manners. They are divorced, but are (mostly) on the same page about respect and acceptable behavior.
My other niece (now age 6) could tell whoppers about what people did and said when she was 4. She could look you in the eye as she lied and you'd believe her. She was incredibly convincing when she lied and was able to come up with things that were totally realistic, although totally untrue.

So anyhow, my point: Kids can and should be expected to show good manners and respect. Four year olds can and do tell convincing lies.

Kathleen if you read my first post you will see that divorce poison was only one thing I thought it might be. I made it quite clear that IMHO it could be a lot of things.

We don't have enough information to make any kind of judgment about the alleged "lying".

On the subject of 4 year olds and whether or not they are capable of lying and being generaly coniving....hahahaha.
Both my girls are 4 and they are very capable of telling bold face lies. They very often tell me "Daddy said I can have a treat" when actually daddy specifically said "No treats tonight". They very often tell the baby sitter things like "Daddy and Dana said we don't have to take naps anymore" exc. exc. It has gotten so bad that we have started to double check with each other every time they ask for something. They have started being sent to their room for it as a consequence for lying. Another example: They are identical twins and have started playing the "I'm not R----- I'm N------ game" when in fact it is R------. Tell me that isn't a child capable of being under handed....hahahaha. So bottom line, either 4 year olds are very naturaly capable of lying (testing boundaries anyone) or my two are just highly advanced.

I do agree that the child shouldn't be punished. Corrected deffinatly but not punished. It's to harsh considering it's already a tender situation. It will only make her resent the man more.

I have also experienced the "poisoning" game with the girls mother. It's no fun.

As a sufferer of this kind of poisoning by a BM, I understand the resentment it can create. In my case SD is very pleasant to me in my presence, but tells BM all my "evils". This upsets my husband immensely, but I try to reassure him that this is a defense mechanism for her. Her mother gets mad if she likes me or has a good time with us. She's just a child, and she's doing what she has to do.

DH did get court-ordered family counseling. For now it's DH, BM, and SD, but I will be getting thrown into the mix very soon. BM is against the counseling and didn't even show to the last one, but DH said it was still very productive. The came up with a "plan" to work on over the next few weeks.

It bothers DH that SD see flaws in him and I, but not in her mother. I've tried to explain to him that this is very natural for a child to do and that he should not take offense. Our DD4 thinks DH walks on water. My DD9 thinks I walk on water. I'm 31 years old, and I still think my dad walks on water...although I do understand now that others feel differently. I think children must have an inherently need to place a complete and unfaltering trust in one of their parents in order to feel secure.

Part of the "plan" with SD is that we are supposed to try and start communicating more about our feelings...i.e. I need to try to elicit her feelings about me in an effort to make her feel more comfortable with me so that we can work through our issues to become closer. Big task and it makes me kind of nervous, but I've been practicing in my head, so wish me luck.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that it helps to consider why this poisoning happens in order to deal with it. Bios are protecting their position...perhaps the only way they know how...and steps are usually simply just trying to do whatever it takes to "get along". I take it all with a grain of salt and just try to do my best because the only behaviors and feelings I can control are my own.

Oh_my, it sounds like you have a great, level head and reasonable expectations. I commend you on that and wish you luck!

I had a similar problem with my DD at about the fourish age.. she still has bouts every now and again but for the most part she seems to have grown out of it. And, this was absolutely not a result of divorce poisoning since her bd is no longer alive and hasnt been since she was two...but anyways

I will have to Completely disagree with Kathline on this one... perhaps my dd is just a handful but she was fully capable of coming to me to tell me something happened or S said this or that that never happened...(and I did get suspiscous and start to investigate just in case but when she started lieing about conversations that I had overheard... I knew what was up) She also would do the crying for no reason and would be up my rear as soon as I would get home from work. I would come home and my DH would be in the room talking to her about something and everything would be fine until she saw me and then the water works. My DH was very upset by all of this and for a moment started to pull away from her.

The only way that things changed was when I looked at how I reacted to it. Everytime she would cry I would ask what's wrong and try to get her to tell me why she was crying (attention!!) and when she would tell me things about DH I would go and ask him what really happened and then go back to her (attention!!) When I stopped playing into it ... she stopped. I know most of it had to do with her now sharing her mom with five other people and I am a fairly laid back person.. I grew up as the oldest of four in a cramped house that usually had all kinds of extra folks...like my cuz who lived with us on and off... so I am used to loud crazy atmospheres with lots of jokes lots of insults lots of everyone talking on top of everyone else... but my husband is not... he cant take the loud noise and he insists on no mam and no sir or vice versa.. so she was adjusting to having another adult in the house that did play like mom does and then on top of that she was not the "golden child" anymore (she was the only grandchild niece great grand etc etc) she had to share with three other kids...

But, I started ignoring the crying when I would come home... I would just pop in to say are you hurt? oh well then cant be that bad get done whatever DH asked you to do... and when she would tell me something that wasnt true I would ask Dh infront of her if that was true ... and she would get punished accordingly usually go sit on your bed for x amount of time and then we will talk about again later (because ofcourse by that time the water works started).. It took awhile for her to realize that I wont play her game anymore and she is doing much better these days...

But, not to say this is the case with your daughter because there is some divorce poison going on but even without it that can happen... I think the best thing to do is to change how you and your DH react to it and I think that mom2emall had a few good suggestions.