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cawfecup-
It almost came to that with the one SD.I keep praying it will get better.It just seems like there's no winning, you can tell the kids resent the one child getting away with murder because if I try to discipline her, she'll call her Mom to fly here to kick my a$$. I never imagined the behavior I've seen.The death threat against my DD really blew me away. I ended up spending the night at my sister's with my DD. SD tried to get me to come back home, because her daddy was mad at her.A lot of crocodile tears.
Mind you, my kids aren't angels, but they don't verbally abuse my DH, and usually mind him. I'll hear complaints, sure, but there's no question in their minds that in this house adults rule. I made that clear from day one. If there's an issue, he and I discuss it. He is stricter with mine because they're here 365. But if I ask SD to not punch on the boys, who will not hit her back, she looks at me with contempt. I tried reason. We tried rules and consequences. There's been a few good moments, always ruined by huge blowups. I even tried to blame it on anxiety, fear of losing dad, etc. I encourage DH to spend a lot of time with SKs. He works the whole time they visit.YES, this is a major problem. I tell him, but he does it anyway. He can adjust his schedule somewhat,he's self-employed. When they aren't here, all he does is complain about the lack of return phone calls, letters, whatever. I say, then pay more attention to them when they come here.
I've considered leaving when they come, briefly. The problem is, I fear what I'd come home to. Before we got married the kids would run the roost while he worked. Four or more teens cannot be left alone for hours and not get into trouble. They resent my presence, sure. They resent my BKs being in dad's house. Ok, I get that. But, this is the only home my kids have. And I feel like every summer from now until they are all grown is going to be another nightmare. I honestly fear for my DD's safety.My sister told me not to ever leave them alone. What kind of life is this?

At 16 she can work ...:) tell dad he can either put her to work or stay home with her :) (I know wishful thinking).

Would the mother really fly out to kick your a$$?

Others will have better advice the only thing I can think of is tell hubby if she assualts another family member whether its you or one of the other kids ... you will have no choice but to call the authorities to deal with her because he will not.

If hubby doesn't back you up not really much you can do by yourself ...

MY SC are much younger but each was given a free pass one time ... they have each physically assualted me on different occassions... and then told that will be the last time you hit me with out me hitting back .... so next time you are thinking about hitting me, think how much its going to hurt when I hit you back!!! I do not worry anymore before my SC would put their fists to me like they were going to hit me I have been kicked, punched, and dealt with swinging arms ... not anymore :).

My oldest SS used to physically assualt his younger siblings constantly last summer after a violent attack on his brother I flipped and asked younger if he wanted to press charges on his brother for assault if it were a kid down the road he would be in jail so do you want your brother to go to jail... big blowout but he hasn't assaulted his siblings in almost a year... yes they still hit each other but no one is bruised or battered.

My DD apparently slapped dad's SO once, after the SO, who slept with dad while they were married, told DD that I cheated on her father. I told DD she should never hit, but next time just state the facts that she knows, that I never went out at night without Dad or DD, etc, only Dad did that.

well, I probably would have slapped her too. :-)

KK you said "that I never went out at night without Dad or DD, etc"
Really? You never went out on your own in the evening? Not even to a friend's place for a cup of coffee? Or to some sort of class or club?
I'm surprised and a bit confused.

Not at night no, DD was at an age that I would not have left her alone. Actually even now I dont leave her alone for long hours. I didnt go to school at night at that time. Friends and family either stopped by the house or we chatted on the phone, or we would go out as a group. I dont know why you find this hard to understand.

In short, I was never unaccounted for. Yes in theory I could have gone out for a nooner, but I didnt, and no one has had any reason to think I was cheating on X.

It is unfathomable to me how anyone could say such a thing to a child. I can only speculate that she is unhappy at not having the same respect I had that she tries to put blame on others.

Of course you wouldn't leave a small child alone, but what about leaving her with (now ex)DH for the evening to do something on your own?
This never doing anything on your own thing is really odd to me. My parents spent most of their time together, and/or with us, but they did both occasionally do things on their own too. My mom went for a coffee or a dinner with friends once in a while, and joined Toastmasters for about a year when my brothers and sisters were around 5, 7 and 9. She took some craft and sewing classes for fun when I was about 6. My dad would go for an occasional beer with his friends and loved to go to Friday night auctions with the neighbour.
BF and I have some times when we go out individually, for me it's usually shopping or for dinner with friends. For him it's usually for beers with friends.
I guess since I am used to couples having some individual friends and activities, even after they have kids, this seems very foreign to me.
I'm not saying it's the wrong way to do things, just that I don't get it.

And obviously what eX's GF said was a dreadful thing to say to a child and she deserves a good smack (even though I agree with you about telling DD not to hit anyone, even for things like that). No arguments there!

cawfecup-
Yes, I do know that if she had the money, she would fly here, and she can and would beat the tar out of me. So could SD16 if she thought she could get away with it. This isn't a child in the physical sense, and since she comes from a large, violent family fighting comes naturally. I'll admit I made the mistake of standing between her and DD and putting my hands on her to keep her from hurting my DD, which I NEVER thought I would do, even now, I wish I hadn't. I guess I should have allowed her to hurt my DD first, because it made everyone think I was the aggressor. I apologized to my DH and to the SD, and to her MOM.At the time she claimed to know how her DD was! She said I needed to be firm. She did NOT reprimand nor has she ever, any behavior that has caused problems. I felt like I was a different person that day.I regret that, and never again in any situation have I come close to it. I don't think I'd ever spank DH's kids if they were little, either. None of the other Skids will tell the truth about what goes on, they have to live with their mom and sister 11 months of the year. Now that BM hates me, it's even worse, because telling the truth would piss her off...too much water under the bridge.
I am hoping DH will take SD with him while he works, as all goes much better with just the others home. Sounds terrible, but she is here to see HIM.

My X worked late and/or traveled a lot. Most evening childcare fell on me (not that I resented it). Now I go out 1 or 2 nights a week.

Where I live, plenty of women bring a child along for coffee, when my DD was small 2 neighbors had girls about the same age, so it was not uncommon to visit with a child in tow. And I do have lunch with friends, so like I said, I guess I could had a nooner -- not that I did, or anyone would have thought that.

Frankly my atittude is that my DD will be in college soon, so I might as well make the most of her time now.

I don't know which is worse: when the Dad's GF tell the kid something to the effect of "your mom got some on the side" (which is, of course, atrocious) or what my Dad's wife said to me on my recent visit, which was to suggest that my mom isn't getting ANY... Let me relate the story, because it was so low-class and nasty-spirited that it was actually pretty hilarious:

When I went up to visit my Dad last month, it just so happens that my birthday fell during my visit. Hence, I got all kinds of cards & stuff sent to me UP THERE instead of at my home (since everyone knew I was going to be there). My mom lives in Spokane, WA (many states away) and sent a little package with cards from she & my stepdad, a gift AND a dvd of a local PBS special on this great old Art Deco theatre/movie house in Spokane that's just been restored. She knows I love Art Deco so she figured I'd enjoy seeing this. As it happens, my dad is into antiques, and years ago I got HIM very interested in Art Deco, so it's kind of this aesthetic we share. Anyway, since he has cancer and has all this "down time" to watch things on tv, I thought he would enjoy seeing this. I pop it in, and the three of us (me, my dad and his wife) are all in the same room, and as it's rolling along, SM starts sighing more and more and starting to look visibly agitated. At first I'm thinking to myself: "well, this thing is longer than I expected and it's moving kinda slow, so she's probably bored or annoyed..." I kept noticing her sighs & annoyance, of course, but I didn't think too much of it ---nor did it occur to me that she was actually upset that I would dare put something on the tv that MY MOTHER sent--- until the following moment occured:

-[Person on dvd]: "It was so wonderful to be able to work on this amazing restoration project... It was THRILLING to be part of it..."
-[SM, to tv]: "Thrilling. I guess they don't F**K in Spokane."

And she wasn't joking. There was no giggle afterwards, only her hour of fuming and sighing beforehand, and it must be remembered that relations between she and I are already on very thin ice. She said it, of course, as "retaliation" for my evil deed of bringing some reminder of my mother ---however impersonal, neutral and scarcely relevant to anything like a loaded emotional issue of any kind--- into that house. I actually laughed to myself, because it was so absurd to see a grown woman resort to making digs suggesting that my mother and stepfather (as residents of Spokane, WA) "don't F**K". How pathetic and ridiculous is that? This is how a grown woman soothes her own ourageously fragile self-esteem? This is how she tries to meet me halfway to make peace?

Not trying to compete with you, KKNY for worst/most shocking story ---and yours is obviously much more of a serious incident--- but just goes to show ya' that if someone wants to insult one's mother badly enough, I guess anything goes!!!

Oh.my.gawd.

I'm sorry, Serenity but that was absolutely hilarious the way you told it. I'm not sure what I would've said or done in reaction, but lets just say I can go there if someone really wants to....holy cow, *klassy*

My stepmom did tell me once that she knows my father bettern than me because she has sex with him. Not that they talk a lot or raise the produce of that sex or have been through a lot of things, but they have sex. "I told her people pay prostitutes for sex, I'm not sure how well they know each other. Um, but okay." And, before it comes up, she decided to bring up this topic of who knows my dad better.

LOL - you're right Serenity, that's so low-class, it's funny.

These stories remind me to be thankful that my SM was a friend of my mom's while she was alive, and although it makes her a little uncomfortable when we all get on a nostalgia kick about things the family used to do together, she doesn't have anything mean or spiteful to say about my mom!
So we try to be sensitive to SM and save most of the nostalgia for when she's not around, because she's a great person and we don't want her to feel awkward.

I meant to add that sending a child back to BM because of disruptive, violent behavior is a last resort, in my mind, because they are his children,too. If one of my BKs were to have acted out so badly in the beginning, I'd have had no where to send them! We would have had to deal with it. That said, my BKs have no BD to run to for backup when they're in trouble. They have to accept the consequences. BM's constant berating of us, and telling SD she doesn't have to listen to me, just Dad, when I'm with them 24/7 seems ludicrous. Do they have to behave in school? Do they hate any teachers? Some behavior is normal teen angst, and probably a lot goes on at BPs, too! DH's EX wanted to send one SS here when he stopped obeying her at 16 or 17. She stuck with it, and all is fine, a few years later. I just cannot and will not tolerate any further violence. I should have pressed charges for the assault, but we were in HER State, didn't want to make things worse,and just wanted to go home. This happened less than a month after my wedding and after all the chaos of the previous 6 weeks, we all needed a timeout!

Serenity,

Considering your mother is married, that is not only tasteless but bizarre.

Maybe she thought it was soooo boring that she was talking in general about the people of Spokane, that if the narrator said it was 'exciting' and she thought the whole thing was so boring, that she was saying that about the people in Spokane, not necessarily your mother. That's how it sounds to me. I'm sure she was probably irritated because you were playing it, and even more so because your mom is the one that sent it, but it's a stretch to imply that she was talking about your mom and step dad's sex life. But, I wasn't there so maybe there was other facts I'm not getting.

Yes, definitely "klassy" is a good word for it... and "bizarre", too.

Gigglemonster: I, too, have been dragged against my will into similar competitions, er, I mean *conversations* with SM (always when my Dad isn't around, of course) about "who knows him better" and why, or "who's closer to him" and why, or "what was/is the happiest time in his life" and why, and the latest (a personal favorite, and I say that with all intended sarcasm): "who's it's going to affect the most/who's going to experience the bigger loss" when he dies. (And of course, in her opinion, the answer to all of the above is that SHE is.) It was only recently that it occured to me how unnecessary these kinds of talks are. What purpose does this serve? I now, of course, can see that she so desperately needs to establish these things in her own mind, but I've just neevr thought in those terms. Not once have I ever thought (let alone SAID, let alone to HER): "my relationship with my Dad is more important than yours is with him; hence *I* will miss him more than you; hence *I* love him more than you; hence *I* am the superior person in his life", which is what all these talks seem to be driving at. Even now, after all this crap and bitterness, I would STILL never say that, not even to myself. It's so sad ---not to mention disruptive and inappropriate--- that she has to make every little thing a contest, even my Dad's very life and death. If your SM ever brings up anything like that again, you might want to say what I will say if my SM does: "Why is this so important to establish? Is it even possible to establish this? I don't see these things as contests... why do you?"

Ceph: You make a good point about trying to be considerate (within reason) about waxing TOO nostalgic about life with mom & dad pre-divorce, in front of SM. I do see more now that too much of that could be hurtful to the step-parent. I will admit that, before this latest "Spokanites don't F**K" incident, and before the worst of the downward spiral in my realtionship with SM that really worsened when my Dad got diagnosed, I was more-or-less oblivious to this sensitivity. I guess, as the kid, being close to both bio-parents, they're such important parts of your life that it doesn't occur to you that you may have to sometimes edit them out of certain conversations. I don't *remember* talking excessively about my mom... if I did it was maybe more a matter of *quantity* of references to her, never intensity of *content* like: "oh I wish you and Mom were back together" or "Mom was so great for you" or anything remotely like that b/c I've always known that it was better for everyone that they divorced. I do remember once a long time ago finding some old photos, some of which were of my mom & Dad when they were first married and sharing them with my Dad and SM (and my mom and SF on another occasion), thinking they'd get a kick out of them. And I absolutely SWEAR that it never occured to me to "use them" as some kind of weapon, merely that they were cool old photos (there were many photos; only a few were actually of my mom, or my mom and him together; most were of my Dad's relatives). When SM (back then GF) saw them, her only response was the aforementioned "big Jewish nose" dig in reference to my mom. EVEN THEN, if you can believe it, I didn't put two-and-two together. (I only did recently, in hindsight.) Maybe because I was young and focused on things like body image, my only four thoughts at the time were: 1) "Why is she being such a b***h and insulting my mother?"; 2) "Jeez... it's really horrible in our culture that someone saying 'big' or 'Jewish' in refrence to a nose is an automatic insult"; "I wonder if my nose will get bigger (they grow, you know)..."; and "I wonder if one day we will have a culture that likes bigger noses just fine..." Anyway, perhaps I should have anticipated SM's insecurities and sensitivities about references to my mother; maybe this was an area I was inconsiderate... it might explain why she feels such a need to (in her perspective) "retaliate" against me. Not beating myself up like I was a horrible person for loving both my parents and not thinking about the fact that casual mentions of one them could be taken as "insults" by the other... But I am now officially aware of it and I see it much clearer than I ever did.

I will say, from an SK perspective, that we TRULY DON'T automatically know that this is a sensitive issue. And since probably nobody feels comfortable SAYING out loud that it's a sensitive issue, it can get out of hand... to the point where, most likely, my SM actually did think that me playing that dvd was some kind of sly attack. Which it truly wasn't. Scary to think about how these misunderstandings can come to get so ugly.

Comment about Spokane is bizzare. even if she only meant people in general, it is still pretty stupid and rude.

On the other hand my SO does not like to watch movies that my X sends. Maybe watching those movies with SM wasn't necessary. I would not want to watch movies that SO's X sends. Not like she would send any, but if she would, I wouldn't watch them and I would possibly make comments that X has nothing else to do. I wouldn't say it to stepkids, but to my SO..I would. Just try to see it from her perspective.

I thought it was bizarre when DH's ex asked for a copy of our wedding DVD. He gave her one and she brought it back telling him it didn't work in the DVD player. He gave her another and I guess she watched it. She said she wanted it because her daughter was in it (she was the flower girl) but I still think it was a mistake for DH to give it to her. She had a bad attitude toward me before our wedding (which is why she was not allowed to come to the wedding, even though she wanted to) and her attitude got even worse after.. I don't know if it's because she saw the wedding DVD or if she would have felt that way anyways, but I don't think it helped.

i would not want to see my X's wedding DvD. How weird.

why would you show old pics of your parents together to a new gf or wife? why? it is funny how kids don't see it the same way. like they forget that their parents are also somebody else's ex partners and other person don't need to see it 24/7.
I don't like to watch my SO's pics with his ex when they were 20 years old, 30 years ago. I just don't like to see them as young kids. I would not be sitting there and watching. When i was very mad at SO once i told him that his X is ugly (fight was related to X indirectly). I would not say it to his kids but I sure said it to him being angry. I know it was low but it was during an argument. My point is i do not care about her. your SM doesn't care about your mom.

Maybe you could remember that for you your mother is very special and you want to show pics and talk about her, but for your SM she is just her DH's exwife, she is nobody special to her.

as i think of it now I told my SO once that his X has a big nose (not Jewish, just a big one lol i am jewish btw myself so i would not make ethnic references ). I said it to him after he talked too much about her (in pretty negative light but still too much). Guess i know how your SM felt. lol

I truly didn't consider that before, but I actually can understand that perspective now. Doesn't make my SM's cheap tactics for addressing the issue any better (especially b/c my intent with pix, etc. was never to be mean), and it's certainly not the only source of issues between she and I. But I can see where she might have presumed I had bad intent... and maybe some SK's actually do have bad intent in that kind of situation... but I'd also bet that it happens all the time where something just gets taken the wrong way... and then, of course escalates from there. My hunch is that a lot of what SK's do (esp. when, say, 21 and under, basically still "kids") that gets interpreted as "mean" or "manipulative" is more just teen self-absorption and obliviousness. Which isn't great either, but at least it's not deliberately hurtful. Just maybe more the idea of: "hey, I have two parents, and I visit them both, and they have spouses/S.O.'s, and everyone's there to love me 'cause I'm the common link, so it all kinda revolves around me. These adults exist to love me and will put aside their differences on my behalf." I admit to some of that self-focus and those expectations of adults when I was younger. And when you're in that mode, it's hard ---by definition--- to see outside of it & see other people's perspectives. Empathy is something that tends to come with more experience & maturity, so many kids just need to grow into it more...

"your SM doesn't care about your mom."

Fine,

My husband has pictures of his ex (SD's mom) and his first wife. We don't hang them on our wall or put them in albums that me or anyone I know will look at, but they are HIS past and if HE wants to get rid of them, it's up to HIM, not ME. (they are in a box in the closet) Personally, I think both his ex's were unattractive. Of course, he obviously found something in them that he was attracted to, so it would look childish for me to criticize them, and I'd look insecure, which I'm not. I did take some of the pictures of SD's mom & her as a baby and put them in a collage for her room. He even had a box of cards and gifts other girlfriends had given him and I didn't make him get rid of it. I'm not that insecure to think of it as competition. I think he got rid of those things since I've never seen them since he moved here or he might have them in a box somewhere else. It doesn't matter.

I can understand how it would upset a GF or SM to have the wedding pictures with the ex put in front of her, but it's part of his life and his daughters. My dad still has the picture taken on his wedding day to my mom in his house. It's one of the very few pictures of my mom that he has, and i think the ONLY one he displays. He also has a quite large picture of him and his current wife in their wedding clothes. (she actually had him go to a professional studio to get portraits done about a week after the wedding). They are just pictures and I don't know if it bothered her but I'm sure she understood that he might have wanted to keep the picture of my mom around because they have four kids that come to visit. The fact that my step mom never removed it or said anything bad about my mom (despite my mom saying terrible things about her) was a huge factor in me liking her. If she had been jealous and insecure, I would not have liked her at all.

Serenity, I agree with IMA, SM was probably bored with the video and was remarking on the THRILLING restoration directing her no f.. in Spokane at the restorers. I have to say sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...BUT I do love Art Deco myself...However I would be furious if my SSs brought old photos, wedding or otherwise for US to see.....17 year old mentions BM in front of me all the time, 25 year old has not, he does realize it would be uncomfortable for me...I appreciate that, and cut the 17 year old slack because I realize he doesnt know better....Altho 25 yr old has been estranged from DH and I for almost a year now, even tho his parents are divorced, he feels I am a wedge between them....I think the divorce paper did that, I came along a lot later....

Serenity, do we have the same stepmom? Seriously. Your bring up really great points. I have had very similar conversations with her which when I look back were brought up in a weird way by her and I don't know why. It's just plain weird. My fall back is humor and I learned a long time ago that she is what I call "fishing." I try not to get hooked. I will usually say something wildly and awfully weird just to get her to be quiet. Hey, it works!

Oh and I forgot about the time she didn't want to bring the kids to our great-grandmothers funeral. Because we as kids didn't grieve as deeply as grown ups. And she had known this woman, what 2 years? Me, 11 years? Crazy.

About her remarks, well first of all does anyone speak that way in front of a guest? And especially when it is something that is obviously important or interesting to them? At the least it is trashy and at the worst, it was deliberately hurtful. We aren't talking about a teenager here, but a fully grown woman.

When the kids mention their other parent all the time, it would depend on what context it's being done in. I think even a young child can be manipulative and intentionally talk about the other parent because they know the step parent might get upset. Even if the step parent doesn't get upset, the child may still have that intention. And sometimes, they are not thinking that way at all, they are just used to being able to talk about both parents and not doing it to piss off the step parent. When my SD brings up her mom all the time, I just say, 'that's nice' and when we are out shopping, she used to ask me if she could buy her mom this or buy her mom that and I'd simply say 'no' without getting upset that she would even ask me. (it gets annoying and a couple of times, I thought like saying 'what does your mommy buy me?' but I let it go and just keep saying 'no'.) She doesn't ask much anymore but she figured since I had taken her to get a mother's day gift, that I was willing to buy her mom things on all our trips to the store. and when she uses the phrase 'at my mom's house, I can .....' I just tell her, 'you are not at your mom's house' or 'well, your mom has her rules and we have ours' or something similar.

But she does reminisce about things they used to do together and I don't let it bother me. She's entitled to her memories and it's not right for me to expect her to never talk about her life and memories. I have many stories of things my kids did when I was with my ex and his kids. I don't think it makes my DH uncomfortable when I talk about those times with fond memories, it was my kids' childhood and I have very good memories that I would not want to be kept from talking about. It also doesn't bother me if he talks about his past, we were not kids when we met, we were in our 30's and both have a past. We care more about our future together than our past with other people.

iammommy, of course we have pictures of our exes. And I have my wedding pictures and my daughter has bunch of dad'
s pictures in her room. And of course my SO has his ex pictures. I never suggest we should get rid of our past. there is no way i would throw my past out! I had wonderful memories of being young and being first married having a baby etc. But i am not going to sit with my SO and my daugher and go over my pictures of me and her dad dating or our wedding pictures. I would look at them with DD but I would not make SO to go trhough the pcitures. What for? That's why it seemed strange that serenity sat down with her dad and SM and went trhough pictures of mom and dad young married or whatever. She could and should share these pictures with her dad but why does SM have to share it? This is just my opinion. Something could just be between parents and children.

iammommy there is a big difference in age. Your SD is a little girl, of course she would talk about mom all the time and show pics etc. It is only understandable. I thought serenity was grown at that time.

In any case there are two sides to the story. This is not about insecurity imamommy. I brought an example about me being angry at SO's X not because of insecurity but because of nasty deeds of X and SO not getting right steps with her (like we know she kept the house key and enetered the house when we were on vacations and took things supposedly belonging to her. It only happened because SO believed when she said she had no extra key and he didn't change the lock). So i made comments about her putting her nose in our business (she also snooped around)and since her nose is so huge she could really put it very deep in etc lol SO has pretty nasty X. In any case this is not about insecurity. Don't you get annoyed with DH's X?

of course I get annoyed with his ex. I was referring to the comment serenity's SM made about Serenity's mom in the picture, not any comment you made.

I thought serenity said she showed the wedding picture when she was a teenager. Even if it annoys the SM, I don't think it's right to say so in front of the kids. My SD wants me to buy her mom things or make things for her mom or do things for her mom and yes, it's very annoying that she thinks I would want to do anything for her mom, especially when she knows better than I do, how her mom hates me. Her mom tells her nasty things about me, yet SD still asks me to do things for her mom. I sometimes wonder if she is asking me to do those things on purpose to see if she can upset me. But, I'm the adult and I'm not going to tell her what I think of her mom or of her asking me to buy things or do things for her mom all the time. I don't give her a reaction and guess what? she stops asking.... If Serenity had shown the picture to SM to annoy her, the SM fell into it by reacting and saying a nasty comment on BM, which would only fuel the SC's behavior. Now a SC that knows talking about BM all the time or showing a picture will upset SM, she will do it more. I'm just saying that SM's need to be the grown up and not react.

And I was thinking 'insecurity' because Sieryn posted a thread on dad's new wife getting rid of mom's things when they married. Mom wasn't the ex wife, she died. I think it's insecurity that makes the new woman demand that the all traces of the first wife be removed. I think it's more understandable in a divorce but when a spouse dies, it's a little different. There shouldn't be anything to be jealous of. I know that there is still competing with their memory and sometimes, the dead wife is put on a pedestal that the new wife feels they need to compete with. I was just thinking about that thread and I sort of got it confused a little with this one.

and I would be livid if BM came into my house when I wasn't here. But I wasn't talking about your comment on her nose.

I agree that demanding to remove traces of past marriage is unacceptable. and it is most likely insecurity.

yeap, we know she was there on at least two separate ocassions when we were gone. it is too long of a story to tell how we know it was her and what she took, but we just know. she does other strange things like calls and leaves strange messages. maybe drunk who knows. Once she called very late at night on BF's cell phone and left a message in a creepy sounding singing voice repeating the same word: sudoku sudoku sudoku... when we first met I didn't believe when he said she is crazy, I thought he is just being hurt that she cheated and left for TOM. but she is crazy.

once SD's credit card got stolen and she called BF furious and yelled on the phone that I stole it. Why would i stole my BF's DD's credit card? And then she said well if it is not her (me) then you stole it (BF). hahah Why would he steal his own daughter's credit card when he is the one paying for everything including her education while BM doesn't contribute a dime. So her huge nose is the smallest problem there is. hahaha

I guess I'm really out there then, as I framed a picture of DH, BM and SD for SD to keep in her room. She used to keep it out but hasn't in years. I would think it odd for a spouse to keep pictures of their ex out (except in the case of death) as 9 times out of 10 there are ill feelings. I don't think a child should be restricted from showing or keeping pictures of their parents together.

Ima brought up a good point. There are times when SD will say something about her mom with perfect innocence - "Mom and I watched a movie together and it was fun" and times she will say something with obvious intent to be nasty "Why don't you have time to watch this movie - my mom has time to watch it with me." I'd love to whip around and day "because I'm leaving to preside over the PTA meeting. Perhaps if your mom was involved in just one of your activities she wouldn't have so much free time." But I don't - I smile and say "I'm so glad you had that time together" and leave. This can easily happen with pictures as well - a lot has to do with intent.

There are definitely times that whipping out old pictures wouldn't be the kindest of gestures, and I acknowledge that can be handled different ways to spark different emotions. But if you are marrying a man with a child their past doesn't go away, so you have to accept that and learn how to deal with whatever insecurity the past may cause you. If a picture can make you feel that badly perhaps there is a deeper problem?

And might not the child (or teen/adult) bringing the photo to Dad and SM be having a deeper problem, taking the photo out of the album to bring to the new couple??? The insecurity being brought to their doorstep, so to speak????

The SK can totally have a deeper problem - that is what I was saying about obvious intent to be nasty. But I don't think insecurity can be brought to your door. A picture is of the past - why should it have any effect on how you feel about the present and the future? Just because they were happy then doesn't mean he isn't happy with the 2nd wife.
This doesn't mean I'm okay with nasty intent - I'm just saying pictures are pictures.

In my opinion, children are usually more insecure after going through a divorce or when going into a step family. Kids, even grown ones, should be given greater consideration for their insecurities. The parents are the adults and the ones that made the adult choices (the choice to divorce or the choice to remarry) or even in situations where one parent didn't choose the situation, the adults still have a responsibility to make their children feel secure, even if it means they feel uncomfortable for it. That includes a step parent that chooses to be in the child's life... the child didn't choose the situation and if they have insecurity, they are allowed. The parents should be able to be mature enough to deal with it.

Now, wait a minute. Serenity didnt say she picked out some pictures specifically of her mom and dad together, went to her stepmom and said hey stepmom look at these pictures from when me and mom and dad were a real family.

She found some old family photos ("most were of my DadÂs relatives") and shared them with her Dad and stepmom oh look at these back when you were all young kind of thing. What was she supposed to do? Go through and purge all pictures from the stack that had her mom in them? Go behind her stepmomÂs back to show them to her dad when SM wasnÂt around? Never sit down with her dad and look at old family photos with him because heÂs got a new woman in his life now? Please. Serenity, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what you did, and IÂm absolutely certain my stepmom would agree with me.

Now maybe IÂm just weird, but I donÂt see the difference in looking at old family pictures of my BF as a young dad in his 20s the same as old family pictures of him as a goofy high school kid. ItÂs his life, his past, part of who he his, why wouldnÂt I want to see the pictures? And of course his wife would be in his young-dad family pictures, just like his sisters would be in his teenage family pictures. I mean we all have pasts, whatÂs so horrible about looking at photographic evidence of them?

DD has pictures of dad in her room in frames. and i have pictures of me and X and whoever in albums. of course children should not be restricted! who said they should. and of course DD has pics of us together, we are her parents. i don't think the issue is about children keeping the pictures or adults keeping pictures of exspouses. this is all very normal to keep the pictures.

the issue is about making a point of bringing pictures of your parents together to a new spouse for demonstration. what for?

if DD would take them out of the album or from the walls in her room come to my SO and said: let's look at pics when my mom and my dad were just married or dated. look how cute they are. lol I would give DD a hint: please don't do this. My SO would not say a word about her dad, he is very kind to my DD, but he would not enjoy looking at me at age 20 and X 19 hugging ot whatever. It would be my job to give DD a hint that this is unneccesary. BTW talking about noses my X also has a big nose. haha oh my

iamommy, young children is a different story. nobody expects young children to be that considered. but grown SKs have to have some understanding. i would expect my DD to have some tact with both mine and her dad's partners.

-- the issue is about making a point of bringing pictures of your parents together to a new spouse for demonstration. what for? --

But she didn't do that. That's my point. She just found a stack of old family photos and shared them with her dad and sm.

--merely that they were cool old photos (there were many photos; only a few were actually of my mom, or my mom and him together; most were of my Dad's relatives).--

i guess it also depends on who the exspouse is. My X does not interfer in my life and does not do anything majorly wrong to DD or me or my partner. So looking at pics of me and him is not a big deal.

On the other hand my BF's X accused me of stealing credit card, snooped through my stuff, causes SDs tears constantly and overall brought too much drama and pain. i don't want to sit and go though pictures of her and BF. in fact there are not too many pictures, she took everything including pics that didn't belong to her. She took all graduation picture etcs and when SDs ask for at least some of them back, she refused. It caused a lot of pain to SDs because they are unable to obtain any pics or any memorabilies, they are all gone. in fact BM went back to the house when we were gone and took whatever was still there. To make a story short I don't see myself, SO and SDs sitting in a circle and enjoying pics of mom and dad young. Kind of like: oh that's when the first time she cheated and confessed etc. ha

so every situation is different. Of course serenity's SM is crazy, no matter what your feelings are, you should not say things like that to your SKs. I don't like BF's X but I would not say it to SDs. I would just remove myself from the room while picture demonstration takes place (not like it ever is going to happen).

When I was dating DH, his mom & I sat up one evening and she brought out pictures of him as a kid, teen and twenties. There were a few with old girlfriends and none that bothered me. I thought it was funny to look at his 80's hair or the clothes that were 'fashion' then... and I think that is what serenity was probably doing too.

and fine, that's true. It doesn't bother me that DH has pictures of BM, even though I don't like her and she doesn't like me. It would bother me if SD pulled out an album of her mom and wanted to remember the happy times. Not because I think he isn't happy with me, but because of things that have happened since then. Sure, there are pictures of her in happy times with DH and SD, but my feelings on how she is doing SD wrong now, would probably be in my thoughts. That would be hard...

Kind of like when SD comes back from a visit now and gushes over all the 'fun' stuff mommy did this weekend, sometimes I think to myself 'yeah, she gets to be Disneyland mom while I do all the real 'mom' work'. But then again, it's better for her to come back gushing about the 'fun' than to come back crying that mommy didn't spend any time with her. It would just be hard for me to sit and listen to SD remember happy times she had when she was little when I think of now, but if she did take out the album and even if I felt uncomfortable with it, I wouldn't say anything to her. I'm not sure what the cutoff age for telling a kid that you don't want to hear about their life or childhood though. I remember talking about my childhood to my dad & stepmom when I was 17-25. It was never a sore subject and of course, I don't know if my stepmom was ever bothered by it, but she didn't stop me from talking to dad about it. I wasn't trying to get him back with mom and I didn't even think about it like that. I had crappy teen years and I used to like talking about things that happened before the divorce, in happier times. I was probably very lucky too, that my stepmom was a psychologist and maybe handled things in a different way. I don't know if that made a difference.

I think it's true that the pictures thing depends on many factors and each situation is different. I think, in general, if everything is basically harmonious between everybody, that a picture is (or should be) "just a picture". But I guess I can also see where if there's a problem or tense relationship or bad intent, then it would be conceivable for someone to use it as a 'weapon'. (As it is pretty much possible to use anything as a weapon...) Or, as in my situation, for it to be ***perceived*** as though it were being used as a 'weapon'. And while I think that's an unfortunate reaction (because it's a negative view and it's pretty insecure), it's not TOTALLY irrational or without precedent. After all, just as there are "Evil Stepmother" myths that can influence how we may view an SP, I think there are also horror stories (some probably true, some probably untrue) about bratty malevolent SK's that can influence perceptions.

I think, in hindsight, if I knew that my sharing those pictures were going to cause those feelings, I might have decided to 'edit' out the ones my mom were in. To be super-duper-considerate, which I guess I wasn't then. Not even so much because *I* feel that I should have to, but out of an awareness (that I didn't have then) that it could cause offense or easily get interpreted in a different way than I intended and stir up a bunch of resentment. Another one of those really difficult decisions between forcing an issue (i.e. forcing SM to look at Dad's past) and flexing one's 'rights' vs. saying to yourself: "okay, I know I shouldn't HAVE to edit my mom out of these pics, but for the sake of long-term harmony I am CHOOSING to, at least today."

serenity-- I guess I was thinking that editing out the pictures w/ your mom (which seems to me would be obvious you did, family pictures from the time when they were married, but none w/ her in them?) would have the potential to have the same negative effect on someone who is either insecure or constantly sees the potential bad intent to everything. Either a "why did you take those out what are you hiding" response or a "oh, she thinks I'm so insecure in her father's life I'm threatened by some stupid old pictures" response. When someone is looking that hard for perceived slights, (whether because the person is insecure or just that the relationship is not good), they're bound to find some, no matter how much you tiptoe. Ya know? I'm still not sure there's a way you could have handled it better while still getting to look at the photos with your dad.

although in that same vein, I probably wouldn't have taken the comment about people f-ing in spokane as about your mom, I would have assumed SM was bored out of her mind about the subject matter of the movie and commenting on their (the people in Spokane, who made/were in the movie) idea of "thrilling". Now, why she wouldn't just go do something else and let you and your dad share your movie instead of sitting there whining the whole time is another matter...

my dad loves to put digital images into a show with music and plays it to everybody to see on DVD player. when it is something about the event that everyone knows it is fine but often it is about something nobody cares about. it is sometimes a torture to watch. dad gets very offended if anyone just sneaks out of the room so we all are there and watching even if it is long and boring. and mom always beggs us to watch so dad doesn't get hurt. unless SM was obligated to watch as to not offend SD and DH, she should just sneak out. same with pictures, she does not have to be a part of picture watching if it upsets her, she has to remove herself from potentially hurtful situation. I wish I can sneak out when dad shows those shows he makes. Don't want to hurt his feelings though...

quirk--- good points, all.

Serenity, No offense meant to you in my post, I was saying I would personally be furious if Adult SK brought photos to our house to show...Insecurity was a word I was I didnt think was a good fit for the situation...Fine nailed what I was thinking, tactless and inappropriate....Not trying to erase anyones past, just trying to live in the present.....

What about in my case?
Would you still think it was tactless and inappropriate in my case, where my mom is passed away and my SM was her friend for nearly a decade before her death? She's mostly comfortable talking about my mom, but I have seen her feel awkward from time to time.
I'm not trying to be confrontational or playing devil's advocate or anything, I'm really just simply curious.

Dotz, what if adult child has pictures or dvds of parties, etc with a variety of relatives, including dad, X and dads relatives? My X emailed me the other day hysterical that he lost pictures of a trip that he, DD and I took, and could I dupe him a copy. The trip meant something to him.

Ceph, My brothers wife passed away at age 34, and when he remarried, he and my sister in laws wedding photo was prominently displayed in the living room..Did I have a problem with it? No....New wife, no....But years later, it was put away...I m guessing they were living their lives in the present, and my brother could take the photo out to look at it when ever he wanted .....And KKNY, If your husband wanted to look at his happy trip DVD, I have no problem with that concept either, but I doubt his SO would want to sit in on it, her perogitive.....As for me personally, no photos were ever brought to me, but if they were , in my personal situation, I know malice would be intended, and thats not OK...My anger would be my anger, I m not telling anyone else how they should feel....

As far as EX's pix and DVD's, I waited until my DH put the photos away, which he did, after BM went a little nuts. I also watched a tape of their wedding.I enjoyed seeing some of it, not so much during the kissykissy parts, and a little anger when she shoved and smeared the cake into his dress uniform- I felt she was too young and that proved it.Did I say anything about this to anyone else, NO. Would I enjoy sitting and comparing our weddings, NO.I believe she had a much nicer wedding than I did, but I chose that. In hindsight,I wish I had gone bigger and better. I know my husband was madly in love with her,and I wouldn't have married him had I thought for a second he was till pining for her. She's the mother of his kids. It wasn't all bad, or all her fault. My kids enjoy watching old videos from when they were little. Should I not let them because my EX is in some? JMO

i agree with dotz that it meant something to HIM but not to his SO. My X and memory of our past mean a lot to me but not to my SO. i would not find remotelly interesting to see my SO's and his X's video. Not like he would make to watch it.

After my ex and I split up, I sent any pictures of him with the kids. I didn't keep any, didn't want any. But didn't want to destroy any of the kids' memories with their dad. It was a kindness he didn't deserve, but I didn't do it for him.