Gaaaah!

Think about this:

You're a young person, so angry with a powerful person in your life that you make lists & color-coded charts, & that person comes to you *with tears in her eyes* & tells you she's "hurt"???

You, or I, or anybody, would be smirking, laughing, hopping up & down with glee, planning the next thing we could do to make her cry.

This isn't about you, & you wouldn't be in the center of the storm if this boy's father would put some starch in his own spine & 1) demand that his son respect you & 2) put some consequences into place.

(I always liked the story Burt Reynolds told on himself: he called his mother by her first name one day & found himself flat on his back with his father standing over him saying, "Don't you *ever* address your mother, *my wife*, by her first name again." Burt says he didn't do it again.)

Some of the very wise people here will have more concrete suggestions, but I'm thinking along the lines of removing from his life the things that make it enjoyable, ie, computers, cell phones, tvs, etc, & making a system whereby he earns them back, one at a time.

wow, sorry, tough one...how old is he?

No, you should not condone lying, it is not OK, but kids lie for a reason. Defense mechanism, want control over their lives...

He also appears to have anger issue: "hate" is not OK, saying nasty thing to DS is not OK. Everybody gets occassionally angry at their parents, but "hate" is a strong word. For him to make such chart means there is enough anger to actually make some system out of it. (although if he only colored one day could be he was only angry one day and then forgot about it)

I think you might want to consider counselling for him, BM issue, plus who knows what else is bothering him. I think i woudl start from there before it escalates.

yes possibly applying some consequences for lying is the right hing to do, but it will not fixed in a long run, you know, punishmenst don't work ian a long run. He'll be more inventive next time.

As about what to do tonight: tell him how it makes you feel that he hates you. And for a long term solution, make an appointment for counselling. Possibly meet with school counsellor first, see what school says. They might know him well enough.

Sylvia I think if he starts hopping with glee that he hurt his mother and then plan next mean thing, then there is a much deeper issue than what we anticipate, and taking away his computer will not fix it.

Trust me and my experience, if that's the case (scenario you described: anger with lack of empathy) then parents have real serious problem on their hand. I'd rather see it right now rather then keep taking things away and see if it works. It won't.

nah, it's just human nature;
when he/she/they/we are angry, we *want* the one we're angry at to be "hurt".

It's natural;

telling him you're hurt, crying, etc will reward those hateful feelings.

Dad needs to step up & channel the spirit of whatever silver-back male he admires.

Kids, especially boys I think, who act this way need that structure.

I don't like "everybody loves Raymond" ... but here is the silly part one of the best piece of parenting advice I have ever heard came from the dad.

"if your kids hate you then you are doing your job as a parent"

I know its not much but it's true :)

All kids tell their parents they "hate" them they know it hurts ... hurts much worse from a SK than your own. At the end of the day you know your own child doesn't hate you but you question it with your SKS...

What I would do .... if when he asks/needs/wants something from you ... just tell him directly you don't do anything for people who hate you and walk away ... go do something for someone who doesn't hate you :)

"All kids tell their parents they "hate" them they know it hurts"
really? all kids tell their parents they hate them? wow. no comments really

po1 you must be the bestest parent to the best child in the world .... to have never heard it good for you

....

but back in the real world .... take a poll I bet most have heard from their kids at one point or another.

whatever...rather argue with SD

Well ss came home from school and I gave him the cold shoulder, while being super friendly to the other kids. He knew he was in trouble and assumed he could not use electronics (his usual punishment). So he went to dh and began crying about not being able to use electronics. DH went off on him about that being the least of his worries and that he should be worried about the fact he doesn't know how to tell the truth and that he writes mean things about people and hurts their feelings.

So ss comes into the room I am in and hugs me and says sorry. I then give him the guilt trip about how I do all I can to make him happy and help his dad give him a good life. I start listing things I do especially for him (dinners I make because I know he loves them, snacks I buy for his lunch, places I take him, etc.). Then I pull out the tears and tell him that I am so hurt that he could lie to me all the time and I am sad because I no longer am able to trust anything he says. He then cries too and tells me how sorry he is and how he is going to tell the truth from now on. I tell him I have no reason to believe him and we will see. Just as I think we are making progress he asks "so am I still grounded?". I look at him in disbelief and tell him that I can not believe that is all he is worried about and he can now leave the room because I have nothing to say to him. He tries talking to me and I ignore him.

So he asks his dad if he can use electronics. DH tells him that until I say its ok then the answer is no. He also tells him that he should be more concerned about the fact that nobody trusts him than if he can play with electronics.

Fastforward to dinner. We decide to take the kids to the local pizza place. SS says he is going to use the bathroom and I remind him to wash his hands with soap and water after (he never seems to wash his hands unless prompted). He comes back to the table with completely dry hands. I ask if he washed his hands and he says yup...and I dried them. I know this place has no hand dryers..only paper towels so he could not have dried them that well that quick with paper towels. So I call him out on it and he admits he lied.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!! So we get home and I talk to dh about this. He says "well at least he admitted the truth right after and next time we will do _______ if he lies". I looked at him and said not next time....NOW!! Or I am gonna loose my frickin mind! I can not stand being lied to and his first reaction is to lie. So we call ss into our room and I ask him why he lied. He tries the I don't know approach and I tell him that is bologna...that he must be lying for a reason. I ask again and he gives me the same response. So I tell him he can go to bed for the night if he does not know. So then he says that he lied because he hates washing his hands.

So I know he is lying to avoid doing things he does not like, but it still does not make it better!! DH did step up a little tonight, but he is still too easy going about this all.

pseudo, I was not per se referring to DD (although true she never said she hated me), but any kids, I know a lot of kids. I mean I never said it to my parents either or never said it to anyone about my parents. We just generally do not use such harsh vocabulary, just not our style even if we are upset with each other. So I do not think it is a typical behavior at all.

How old is SS?

Not to get in the middle of this one, but PO1 maybe it's your school/neighnorhood or maybe you're missing some of what comes out of kids mouths and their actions at recess/lunch time...but yep, somewhere between 3rd and 5th grade it's quit common to overhear these little darlings strutting their stuff and being little drama queens and kings.

I hate you. You're ruining my life (like they got a 'life at this age). Cuss, cuss (trying out the latest word and ways to use it they've heard so and so say). I think it's much more prounced now than it was just 10-15 yrs ago.

No, REAL hate and/or REAL anger issues are not normal, but these kids are repeating crap they've seen on stupid sitcoms and even what is suppose to be child/teen geared cartoons. (Which is a good reason to monitor the crap tv has on for kids these days). Spend a day and evening actually watching this crud and you won't have to wonder where these kids are getting it.

More than once I've told my daughter that she is not to repeat/impersonate the crap she sees and hears the other kids trying out at school. That that might be what she saw so and so do/say and some mistaken children think that's cool or the way to be 'popular' but that is not the way she will behave and or say things in my home. It's not cool, it's not acceptable. But but but...I am not in the school from 8 to 3, I can't help or change what 'the other kids are doing/saying/acting and then I lapse into why this or that is not ok blah, blah blah. Kids are kids and they are going to try out what they see other kids their age try.

I would be more concerned in this case that SS is acting out and testing a bit because of several things 1) how unconditional will Mom be, my other one dumped me 2) he just recently was blew off by BM at one event and then she shows up at next event and distrupts his little world 3) there is a new baby coming into this household, he's always been the 'baby', Dad has always babied him and a cross between the past and a 'uncertain future' might be nagging on his little mind 4) friend or desired to be friend at school are making impressions on him at school and he's trying it out.

My oldest daughter called me just the other day with a 'what the hell?'. GS8 soon to be 9 and in last part of 3rd grade announced 'I hate my life'. Why, you may ask? Well because his mother said no to two new video games that were released on the same day. He could have one with his 'Valentine Money' he got from us and his other Gma both he would have to earn the other one. How tragic. Mom's ruining his life.

Not all kids are the same, not all kids are impressionable, but not all kids who turn into little drama queens/kings habor REAL hate and/or REAL anger issues.

Just my 2 cents. Carry on here. Agrue it into what turns out to beating an already dead horse merely because one thinks differently than someone else. Some of us live in different neighborhoods, different lifestyles and even have little choice of what other kids our kids attend school with. Just because your daughter did not do this or that, or your family NEVER, does not mean this or that implies a major issue and something drastic is wrong with everybody else's children.

As to the not cleaning up water mess. It's not just the lie. Hit Ss up with the fact it is a dangerous lie. What if somebody (pg you) had went in to use the bathroom and slipped and fallen? Older sister went down and broke her arm? Sometimes lies may seem 'harmless' but lies breakdown trust. Does he really want you all to doubt everything he says? Does he want eveyone to think he can not be trusted, believed blah blah. Kids who have lost thier trustworthiness also lose friends, lose privileges blah blah. Don't make it just about the 'lie' turn it into what the lies can mean, how it can affect not only him but others and/or the way others might begin to treat him.

I've been told by more than one child 'you're the meanest mommy in the world', 'you're ruining my life', you just don't get it Mom'...blah blah blah. There is nothing wrong with my children, no REAL hate issues, no REAl anger issues, I've just simply poo-poo'd on their little party and momentarily upset them.

PO1 he is 9. Justmetoo thanks for the insight. I do think that those things you mentioned probably do factor into this situation a bit. I am just so frustrated with the lying. And DH did stress to ss yesterday that we are now unable to believe ANYTHING he says or trust him at all.

Thanks everyone for your perspectives.

Inc, My dd is the same age. I'd cut the waterworks, obviously that doesn't get to him.

Next time he lies, tell him if you can't trust him to tell the truth about a little thing like washing his hands, you can't trust him to ride in a car safely or go to a restaurant.

I hate to say it, (and I don't have other children that this may have affected) but we would not have gone for pizza if DD had lied about the hands. And she HATES to wash hands too.

The tricky part is thanking them for telling the truth, but letting them know that lies are not acceptable.

My sister and I not only said we hated our mom we plotted killing our teacher and burying her under the building. haha. horrible. And we didn't have TV or cable or outside media. It's a time of feeling experimentation. Shock value. What works? Pushing buttons... etc. You need to be a rock.

This is the time to give the action/reaction... You lie, you lose.

(I don't know why, but for my DD making things rhyme really works... you pee, no play, etc)

So, you lie... you lose whatever it is that was going to be cool/fun/neat/exciting for the rest of the day. Start stocking up on yummy desserts, small fun activities, etc.

Wait for him to drop his lie bomb and then just tell him, calmly, that it's too bad he choose to lie. Dad and the rest of the kids are going ________ and he can stay home with you and help clean the stove. Lie about washing hands before dinner? That's too bad you made that choice. We are having _____ for dessert. You may finish your dinner and go to your room.

No waterworks, no guilt trip. Just simple cause/effect.

((((hugs))))

justmetoo, pseudo said ALL kids tell their parents they hate them. She didn't say "they talk like this at lunch to their peers". I am very very familiar with what children of any ages say or do due to the nature of my life long career. I agree kids often say very dramatic things to each other yet telling their mothers they hate them is not a norm and is not a typical behavior unless we are talking of particular circles. ALL kids do not tell their parents they hate them.

Incognitomom,

read to him or retell "boy cries wolf" story, he might be too young to fully comprehend the consequences of lying, but he should be able to understand the story. Sometimes when i could not come up with good example of appropriate behavior, I told DD to read a particular story and then discuss with her. See if it works

My DD has never said 'i hate you' to anyone that I know of. Hate you, shut up and you're stupid have been bad words from day one here. She has said I don't like you when...

But I know for a FACT I have said it, I've heard other kids say it and I am confident within the next at least 8 yrs my DD will say it at some point.

Just wanted to pipe in there.

I agree -- if our kids are mad, then we are doing our jobs and I definitly think the reason that these is so much 'resentment' from this SS is because stepmom is having to be 'the bad guy'. Even If you are the custodial parent, discipline from the stepparent and not from the bio is going to cause resentment. But you have no choice. You are raising him and ignoring or allowing his behavior will be worse later on ... I an sending you a big HUG!!

Following up because I think this is hilarious. After my post that my daughter has never told me that she hates me... I called over to my mom's house where my 3 yr old spent the night last night to see about meeting to get him back. DS gets on the phone and says 'I can't love you anymore mommy I love grandma too much and I have to stay with grandma'

I started laughing because the timing was just hilarious for me. I just wrote that hate is a no no word on our house but then DS says I can't love you anymore. Omg! He's only 3 and he doesn't even realize that magnitude of saying that and ofcourse when I said Ok if you want to stay another night that's ok he said Ok I love you Mommy bye!!! Lol

LOL myfampg, kids are hilarious, never a dull moment

PO1 my stepson does know that story, we have read it together. To drive my point that I can not trust his word I have been showing him that I can not trust him. Last night he went to brush his teeth...I asked him after if he brushed his teeth and he said yes. Then I told him that unfortunately his word does not hold any meaning because of all the lies he has told so he will have to do it again with me watching. I have been trying to do little things like that this weekend to show him how much he "needs" to be trusted. He has not gotton caught up in any more lies since Friday night. I know its only been a day...but I will take small victories! LOL

myfampg thanks for the hugs! I do feel like the bad guy because dh is so lax when it comes to ss. But I know if I don't step in that he will be even harder to deal with later on. Sometimes my dh sees the light and steps up like he did this weekend, but other times he is just an idiot! I do think he has a lot of guilt over bm's tactics, plus ss is the "baby" so he tends to spoil him more. Plus he works a lot and hates spending his time home with the kids disciplining them.

But I keep reminding him that he will not do ss any favors with this treatment. Its pretty sad that our older kids all see it the way I do and tell dh he lets ss get away with too much!

IncognitoMom, no advice, just wanted to offer support. I know how frustrating it can be to have a DH who wants to ignore/excuse away bad behavior. If it's something fairly important (teeth brushing, homework), I no longer give SS the opportunity to lie or to not lie - it's now just "let me smell your breath" or "show me your completed homework". Too often SS would lie about having completed something and DH would make excuses for him! (Not to say SS constantly lies non-stop - but to me, if a child of that age ever directly lies and it's just completely ignored with no consequence whatsoever, unless it's some extreme circumstance, that is just an appalling precedent to set.)

As much as I'd like SS to not ever lie, I don't see that happening at this time with DH behind me making excuses and granting pardons - and that would just send my blood pressure through the roof. So, I figured if DH was going to say thing like "Oh, so you lied about doing your homework? Well, go do it now then" I'd just skip that middle step and go directly to "prove to me that homework is done". While I am not at all happy with it, to me, it seemed the lesser of two evils to check every single thing SS does rather than to believe his "word" over and over despite any or all evidence that he was lying (criminal defense attorneys no doubt would love to have DH on a jury if he's going to be this way! Apparently, at least sometimes, he'll believe anything, no matter how far-fetched.)