I will apologize in advance for temporarily hijacking this thread as my comment is only marginally related to your post, Colleen, but I thought of this forum this morning when listening to the radio as I was getting ready for work. The local folks were mentioning notable people who were born today, one of whom (apparently) is Gloria Steinem. Hearing this, I immediately thought of KKNY and her quote of Ms. Steinem, "A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle." (this is actually a quote I find extraordinarily funny, by the way!)

Anyway, wondering if anyone else has read "Outrageous Acts and Everyday Rebellions," a compilation of essays written by Steinem? One of my absolute favorites is "If Men Could Menstruate." It is a hoot!

Ah yes Gloria Steinem, fabulous feminist, but also a female who chose to not have any children, although in her book "revolution from within" she did explore many of her life choices when faced with cancer.

Great thinker, and she in combination with other feminists such as Germaine Greer, and Betty Friedan did make a big difference for women at the time.

Interestly enough children are necessary for survival of the species, and even while we speak giving birth to children is rapidly NOT becoming the domain of the female.

Also nuclear families are not the majority of families anymore. And, isn't that the point? The one area that females have historically CLUNG to as the one area they could claim as theirs, practically no longer exists. Everyone's identity is changing at a remarkable pace.

Even one thing I read not that long ago, that we in North America who think we are saving a poor black African child by adopting the child are actually involved in genocide of a kind. If you think about it, that is so true. But YET, most people, would with great globs of tears in their eyes say oh what wonderful people they are to adopt those children. In reality you are stealing a poor mother's children.

Sorry Colleen, you just invalidated your own point by equating the absence of a romantic relationship with a man to a condition where a woman:

"...[doesn't] have the balls to get more out of life..."

A woman ---any woman--- is NOT automatically any of the things you suggested she is, simply b/c she isn't currently dating or sleeping with anyone:

"scaredy cats"

or

"pathetically cloying"...

As for me personally, I'm not a BM, and I happen to be in a relationship with a man at the present time. But as a woman, and on behalf of women, I take issue with your assumptions, which pretty much all boil down to the opinion that if a woman isn't involved with a man, she's full of excuses, or there's just something wrong with her. Way to prove your point about "not needing the validation' of a man for self-worth! If I chose not to be in a relationship, there'd be nothing wrong with that, at least in *my eyes*. I don't need to be in one to be a fulfilled, worthwile, happy successful person. There are numerous reasons a woman may decide a romantic relationship with a man is not something she's interested in, or requires, temporarily or for the forseeable future. Reasons which are not all "bogus" as you seem to think:

"...any number of bogus reasons for why it is impossible for them to establish a new and meaningful relationship..."

There are many exceedingly valid reasons. Reasons, often, beyond a woman's total control. Reasons which may include, among many others:

-too damn busy picking up the pieces after a divorce ---and most often the vast majority of the daily responsibilities--- and trying to feed, clothe and educate one or several children on a shoestring
-too damn busy trying to advance oneself in the job market to be able to support the children and/or pay for exorbitant day care costs required b/c of working
-too damn busy trying to find time ---between Job #1 and Job #2 and/or advanced job training or additional education education/certification--- to actually SPEND with children
-too damn busy trying to find time/energy after all that to have a moment to oneself
-too damn busy trying to be a model for one's children of "self-reliance" and that they don't need a romantic relationship at all times to be successful or happy

But, I know, Colleen, how "bogus" and "pathetic" you think these excuses are, *especially* the ones having to do with children:

"Children come first, they will espouse infinitum. YAWN!!!"

I know, kids are nothing compared to "normal challenges in life"...

Did I ever say anywhere that a meaningful relationship meant with a man? Meaningful relationships can come in many forms including a relationship with your art, with yourself, with your dreams, with your community.

Tsk Tsk. I see the rearing of children as one of the most important things we do as humans. Just don't tell me you think children come first to you when you use them as an excuse for your own failings to achieve your goals. Children learn their most important lessons in life by example.

I don't think Colleen invalidated her own point, I think you missed the point. If someone has this laundry list of reasons (that prevent them from being in a relationship):

-too damn busy picking up the pieces after a divorce ---and most often the vast majority of the daily responsibilities--- and trying to feed, clothe and educate one or several children on a shoestring
-too damn busy trying to advance oneself in the job market to be able to support the children and/or pay for exorbitant day care costs required b/c of working
-too damn busy trying to find time ---between Job #1 and Job #2 and/or advanced job training or additional education education/certification--- to actually SPEND with children
-too damn busy trying to find time/energy after all that to have a moment to oneself
-too damn busy trying to be a model for one's children of "self-reliance" and that they don't need a romantic relationship at all times to be successful or happy

none of which I would call bogus. I was a single parent and did all of that. I didn't have the time or desire to get out and meet someone else. I enjoyed my independence and freedom. I wasn't 'invalidated' as a woman because I didn't have a man. There's nothing wrong with being perfectly happy to be single.

But then again, would a perfectly happy person spend whatever valuable time left (after doing all those things on your laundry list), to roam message boards and pick fights or do nothing but criticize a whole group of people (not just the individuals that might be doing something wrong, but the group as a whole) day and night, for years???

"Did I ever say anywhere that a meaningful relationship meant with a man? Meaningful relationships can come in many forms including a relationship with your art, with yourself, with your dreams, with your community."

Colleen, your post was titled and centered on the concept of "needing validation from a MAN", and when one says "meaningful relationship" in the sentence you said it in ---sorry--- one does not first think the reference is to a relationship "with one's art". Furthermore, the examples you gave of the "bogus reasons" for NOT having those sorts of "meaningful relationships" don't really makes sense in that context. For example, who's "too old" for art? or dreams? or oneself?

Please forgive me if I have misunderstood your words or intentions.

But, anyway, what makes you think these "pathetic scared" ex-wives you're talking about DON'T have "meaningful relationships with their art", or dreams or community? How would you even know, since so many of these "relationships" are abstract and inside one's own head?

I forgive you for not understanding me. Too old is actually used as an excuse for lots of thing. I mean really who is going to say, I am too lazy?

Ima, to answer your question: Some people are just not done working through certain painful experiences, and/or are just not ready to go out and date again just yet. Doesn't mean they're abnormally bitter or pathetic, just still rather raw and hurt. Everybody deals with difficult periods, like divorce, in their own ways and at their own time. Which is actually healthy and sane and what many therapists, dating experts would advise... lest the new person becomes a repository of unfinished business from the past relationship. You know, the whole equation of "you should wait at least a year after a break-up ---sometimes significantly longer--- before dating someone new". Sure, soemtimes the words (from all sides) on boards like this can get a little touchy and stingy... But isn't it better that we're all on here, at least trying to express and work through our feelings, acknowledging that there are problems, rather than stuffing it all inside, pretending there's no problem, and blindly throwing ourselves (and kids) into a new romance that is just too soon and letting the confusion and baggage simmer on slow boil?

Women always help each other work through the pain. Not having a man doesn't mean a dang thing to me. Although sometimes shovelling all this snow all by myself pisses me off. But when another woman is offering to help you, why do you bite her hand so hard?

"Some people are just not done working through certain painful experiences"

and how is it helpful to come to a forum and inflict your pain on others, who may also be in pain.

When a step mom here says 'help, I'm having a problem with my step family' and they get told "too bad, you shouldn't have married someone with kids" or "should have worked that out before you got married." and the blame is on the step parent. and then they tell the step parent to keep the step kids at arms length, don't try to have a relationship, don't cross those boundary lines.... but if it benefits the step kids, then go ahead and pay for college and anything else they need. But don't take the kids to the doctor... or go to the school conference, those aren't YOUR kids.

How is doing all that going to HELP them through their 'painful experiences'? By making someone else's painful experience, more painful? I don't think it has as much to do with having a man, but if they have so much meaning in their lives, why are they here putting down those of us that are trying to build a better family life with our step kids?

and they have used bogus excuses as to why they won't date or get married. "I'm never going to look like I did ten years ago" Well, nobody here is. "I'm too old", Tell that to my grandfather that remarried at 80 after my grandma died. Having kids and not wanting to have a man around your kids are very valid reasons, but that's a personal choice. Yet, they feel free to criticize others that choose a different path. But if you criticize their choice, it's just mean & rude. (only if you are a SM though) Yes, the double standard get old, tired & boring.

Colleen, I think sometimes the biggest help you can offer someone is simply understanding their position without judgement. I don't know the particulars of your situation, but it sounds like you're willing to share in some (perhaps many) of the child-raising duties. Which is great, and may even be an utter necessity depending on how responsible (or not) the BM in your life happens to be... and the DH.... But no matter what actions you're taking to help ---and no matter how great these actions are--- BM will still "bite your hand" if she knows you think of her as "pathetic", which would feel to her like massive insult on top of injury.

Again, I obviously don't know all the details involved.... but c'mon... divorce, remarriage and especially 'the new wife" are always a touchy and sensitive set of issues. For anybody. Few women would reach out and hug or worship the woman who's now with the man that could have hurt or rejected them very harshly. Even if your DH isn't a sleazy caricature ---the type to toss out the first wife at mid-life then run out & get a red sportscar and a bimbo half his age--- this caricature exists b/c many men DO end up with younger women in their 2nd marriages. And to make matters worse, these men often "fix the errors of their past" or "become more sensitive and mature" just in time to shower the new wife with all kinds of praise, support, commitment, etc. that the first wife never got b/c when they were married the guy was a young pr!ck who thought he had a lifetime to discard or mistreat women at will or "upgrade" to a newer model as a prize for certain milestones of achievement or bank balance. So the stereotype is that the new wife is treated like a queen, unlike the first wife who scrubbed toilets to help put him thru med school, etc. Even when it's not so callous as this, thing is many men DO mature as they get older and learn how to treat women better and appreciate them more, etc. and the first wife sees this happening and feels like she wasted years of her life she won't get back. It's rough, and just plain not going to be easy for the first wife to think you're the bee's knees. Best case scenario, she will be civil and will have moved on with her own life and might even be really nice to you... But even in the best situations, there is always a small part of any former wife (or girlfriend, whatever) that will make some comparisons, question what you've got that she didn't have, why you "deserve" to be treated well by the same man that treated her like a piece of garabage (at least by the end of the marriage). And if you DO happen to be younger or prettier, it's going to make matters infinitely more strained ---obviously--- if she catches the slightest whiff of you regarding her as a pathetic old bag. Even if she's acting crusty and biting your hand, within yourself you should at least try to empathize with some of her situation. This romance business can be a really rough game for women in general.

But you are making a lot of assumptions sereneity. First, can anyone make you feel like a pathetic old bag, if you don't feel that way about yourself?

Personally, even if I have made a few posts that would state the opposite, I don't see people who are old as pathetic. There are in fact other cultures that see old age and still alive as a sign of strength.

Men traditionally don't or aren't helpers. You feel marginalized, and that is how you feel, as I am sure I would feel the same way too, and that is what I mean by find your relationship. Find your strength. Find your centre.

Women are the best helpers to each other. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that young women, or stepmothers, or any combination thereof are you enemy.

A person can never be young again. And, if you remember how awful it was back when when you were 25 - 30 would you want to go through that again?

We women should stick together. And in numbers we are strong. Men aren't the enemy, they are as scared as we are. A man who finds himself a younger female to replace you, is he scared? LMFAO, he will be dealing with jealousy and insecurity like you saw your entire life. Some YOUNG stud is going to come and steal his beautiful young wife away and he will be castrated. He would come back to the security of your life together if he could.

Our discussion isn't about those superficialities. I am not superficial, most of the time. But, IF superficiality is required, I am more than able to do it:D

Serenity, how does your theory hold any credibility when my husband's first wife was much younger than I am. I am actually older than my husband. (although I have never met her and she remarried and could probably care less what he has done after he divorced her.)

But his exGF, with whom he has a child is also four years younger than me. Of course, I am much more attractive (I'm really not being conceited here, but she's a smoker/drinker and looks much older than 35. She looks well over 40.) but what would be your reasoning for why she is so bitter, jealous and vindictive toward me? Yes, my husband broke up with her. She was living in his house, stole his credit card, didn't come home at night & had a boyfriend on the side. They broke up at least four years before he met me. She was sweet as can be toward me until he put a ring on my finger, then her claws came out.

Believe me when I say that I have tried to be understanding to her feelings. Some of the things she does, I cannot comprehend.

I can tell you that if I were in a place that I couldn't or wouldn't be able to provide for my kids and someone else could, I can't say I would 'worship' but I would be grateful and thankful that my kid(s) were not suffering because I could not take care of them. I may not like that I'm in that place, but I wouldn't bite the hand that feeds my kids, so to speak.

The answer for me is no. I do not need a man to validate me. LOL. I spent most of my life without a man. I can count on one hand how many boyfriends i have had. i loved them all but had no interest in settlign down and having a family.
I've always relied on myself and no one else to do anything for me.
As for the ex. She does need a mad. she brought several in after her divorce and now settled on one that is not a jewel but keeps him there cause she has no on else. She has low self esteem issues which is so apparent. Even her own daughter questions why she keeps this man.

With my Husbands Ex I think it isn't so much that she "needs" a man to validate her. She just literally can not SURVIVE without one. She has no income and has to have a roomie to make rent. She uses men for financial gain of sorts. She needs a car, she needs christmas presents for the girls, whatever. She finds a man,schmoozes him (and god knows what else) and when she gets what she wants she gives them the boot. The only difference between her and a hooker is the hooker is honest. Mean but very true.

As far as her obsession with J after two years of divorce, I think it's more of a control issue rather than a validation issue. She looks at J like she owns stock in him since she had his children. Also, there is a desperate need to hang onto him because of issues she got from her mother who was married 18 times. No Kidding. This womans mother was married 18 times! She has a real fear of turning into her mother but is too blind to realize she already has. The only difference is she doesn't marry the guys.

Me. I NEED no man. I choose to be with one now because I love him but if he up and left me tomorrow I promise you, I would survive. I would not pull a Biomommy and stalk him for two years. Rest be assured.