Well 5 is kind of young but they can have a chapperone with them at all times. Brittani was 7 & flew alone for the first time. She was excited to no end. The flight attendant called me from the air & let Brittani talk. She had a blast from all the attention. I was petrified. I think it should be your gut instinct on how you feel about her flying. Trust yourself.
I have my DH make arrangements in January for a summer visit. It's then determined by them & the BM when they want to get back to us on it. I usually push for getting the tickets no later than February/March.

I am a big planner so I think that the sooner plans are discussed the better. For spring break I would have been discussing plans months ago. For summer I would personally want to start discussing it now just to be sure I got the time I needed off work, etc. for the visit. As for flying I am not sure I would like a 5 year old flying without an adult, siblings with them or not.

DD was flying oversees unaccompanied minor since age 10 or 11. she had to fly several times a year. i was having heart attacks every time she flew at first, but we had no other options.

age 12 is fine. But i don't know about 5. seems too young, even with 12 year old being there. but then again it is not like they are completely on their own, there is supposed to be an adult watching them.

but then again kkny shared that whoever was supposed to watch her DD on the airplane literally lost her.

i don't think there is any time frame that you have to arrange it ahead of time, whatever is satisfying for all parties. we always did it much in advance, but it was always the same kind of time frames: summer break, christmas break etc. so there was no surprises. we are talking at least 11 hours flight one way. have to plan in advance.

Well last year bm did not try to make any plans for summer vacation until May and got mad that she did not get the kids for the whole summer! I guess she was under the impression that moving out of state entitled her to have the kids with her the whole summer? My dh did give her a few weeks, which we later regretted after hearing what went on during their visit.

This summer we hate to let them go, but know they want to see their bm and relatives there so my dh thinks he may let them go for a shorter tim than last summer. He has thought about denying visitation because of her bf and his behavior, as well as her interrogating the kids last time. But before he denies visitation he is going to give it another try, with a warning about that behavior.

Anyways, she has mentioned things to the kids about seeing them this summer but has not called my dh to make plans yet! We are planning our summer vacations, so she is going to get whatever dates are left. And I am sure she will be mad, but I do not feel like it is our responsibility to do her planning. And she made comments about them flying alone now the youngest is 5 and can fly alone according to airline guidelines. We do not feel comfortable with this, and know that it will be a war with her though becuase she will have to pay for someone to fly with the kids. If she paid cs we would probably pitch in for flying costs, but since she chose to move out of state and does not pay any cs (and still owes us money for the pictures I have complained about) I do not think we should pay anything!

Hi mom2emall,

Personally, for any trip I plan at least 3 - 4 months ahead. I am lucky if I get two weeks notice from my childs father and then he wonders why I can't take off of work to meet him halfway :(

Anyway, maybe DH can email BM and ask? It may seem petty that DH has to do it, but at least it'll cut her off before starting any drama.

Some companies do not charge additonal for unaccompanied minor or some charge very little. It is not expensive accommodation at all, unless it changed since DD stopped needing unaccompanied minor accommodation (16 or 17 I think)

mom2emaill you should not pay anything for SKs to go see the other parent. I never paid anything when DD was going to dad. And it was several times a year back and forth not cheap, but frankly it was not my business but his. I didn't not pay a penny.

I don't want to sound mean but if mom doesn't want to pay, then she can come and visit SKs in your town. Kids are with you full time so she has to pay for visitations. common sense.

Our "rule" works well. We first pick 2 summer camps for SD and rule out those weeks, and then we split the remaining weeks. Every other year we pick our weeks first, mom picks first the other years. Camp schedules come out usually right after Spring Break, so we try to have our summer schedule set by mid April.

If plans involve flying the CP has to give the NCP permission in writing to take the child on the plane (at least DH had to.) I would think those type of plans should be discussed months in advance.

I would rather eat dirt than let my 3 or 6 year old sons fly with SD13. Not because of SD, but because I can't expect her to be the parent and not get carried away in the excitement, and I can't trust that the airlines wouldn't lose either of them. No way, no how!

At age 5, the child will only be allowed to fly unaccompanied if its on a direct flight with no stops.

The way the courts would handle this, if it came to that, is that they would allow the child to fly unaccompanied if they are able to according to the rules of the airline. IF the other parent objects, then that parent is expected to pay the cost of the extra tickets for an escort.

Also, if this were to go to court for any reason, the children would get six weeks in summer to be with mom, because she is out of state, as well as every second holiday. However, in addition, child support would also be awarded, albeit it wouldnt be much if mom isnt working, and if she has costs to fly the kids for visits.

I dont think your husband can deny visitation and not look like a jerk if it went to court. I also dont think its in the kids best interest to not let them see their mom. Maybe it would be a good idea to have the courts set visitation, to end the frustration that your husband and his ex wife both must surely feel in trying to work out an amicable solution.

Kathline, I would agree with most of what you say if you said maybe or might more, because you can never guess what a court would do if you were to go to court. Every attorney I've ever talked to about a case has said, you never know what a judge will do. and they have always been right. Especially true when the last judge didn't see a problem with mom sharing a bedroom with her two daughters. or maybe he just blocked out the part where she admitted her boyfriend stayed with her when he was in town, or maybe he doesn't want to believe a mom would actually have sex with a boyfriend in front of her two daughters.

Barring documented abuse by the NCP (and even then supervised visitation is almost always awarded) I have not seen one case where a Judge has not awarded visitation. Even is the NCP lives in another country, they will still be granted visitation as they are not required to exercise it.

In the case you posted Ima, the Judge has no grounds to prevent visitation b/c bf spends the night. Even if there was evidence that he did (which is okay) or even that they had sex together while the children were there in front of the children or not (if not, there really isn't a concern anyway) that is not going to prevent the NCP from seeing their child. It might have some clauses as in the bf cannot spend the night, but it will not unilaterally prevent visitation.

Right or wrong, that is how it goes.

The bm does not have any court ordered visitation. The court papers say that my dh has the final decision about any visitation. That is a result of her behaviors.

Since she does not work and has more kids and a bf who is unemployed frequently I do not see her going to court to change the order, especially because then she would be ordered to pay cs. So I do not think this will even go to court.

Our issue with her visitation is that she does not plan in advance. Even when she lived in state she would not show up for regular visitation we had arranged with her, but then she would show up at 7am when it was not her day without calling before-hand and expect to pick up the kids. She has no regard for our plans or what we have going on, she thinks that the world revolves around her. While we completely disagree with what has happened at times when the kids were in her care we know they want to see her.

As for flying, we do not feel like the two older girls are responsible enough to take care of their 5 year old brother on a plane. We do not have them babysit at home, so babysitting in an airport or on a plane seems like way too much. As others have pointed out the attendants are not always responsible when it comes to unaccompanied minors. And since their mom is the one who moved out of state and does nothing to help us with them financially we do not think we should pay travel costs for her to have an adult fly with them. Yes, it is our request to have an adult with them-but its her fault they need to travel by plane anyways.

mom2emall,

Well, it sounds like you have everything legally in your and your DH's favor. I am aware that you weren't asking for legal advice, just giving my two cents.

I do just want to point out that just because BM would file for visitation does not mean that a child support case would automatically be opened. Your DH would have to do that or go through the states child support enforcement agency.

"I do just want to point out that just because BM would file for visitation does not mean that a child support case would automatically be opened. Your DH would have to do that or go through the states child support enforcement agency."

That's not true.

While in some states, it may be that way, other states can order support, even if nobody is asking for it. The court can, upon it's own motion, make an order for support at any time. It just depends on what state you are in and the laws in your state. (or the state that has jurisdiction)

and nivea, my point in that example is that the court is not always predictable. What you think is right or wrong, the court may or may not agree. There's no way to ever know for sure how a court will rule.

Of course you are correct, you never know what a judge will do when you actually get to court.

Case law on the subject does show that in a prevailing majority number of cases, children are allowed to fly unaccompanied provided they can comply with airline rules for such. AIrline rules, for major carriers, include the child being no younger than five, the children not being on the last flight of the day, and children under 8 or nine, depending on the airline, not being allowed to fly unaccompanied on flights with connections.

This is particularly true when one parent is picking up the entire cost, rather than the cost being split.In many of the cases, when one parent objects, they are offered the chance to pay for the flight of an accompanying parent.

Depending on the circumstances, a judge MAY not require that the kids be allowed to fly unaccompanied, but I wouldnt bet on it. ON the other hand, the mom in this case should be paying support. Its both parents jobs to support their children, its ridiculous that some non custodial moms get a free pass when it comes to child support. I would be willing to bet the non custodial mom in this case doesnt really want this to go to court, since it would mean she would end up being ordered to pay support, so the OP's husband can probably make demands, such as the kids not flying unaccompanied, since the nc mom wouldnt want to rock the boat.

People, both male and female, who wiggle out of paying support make my hair hurt.

It sounds to me like mom2emall and her dh have the right to say they don't like the 5 year old flying without an adult. I would not let a 5 year old fly without an adult even if there is a 12 year old sibling. Since the bm does not pay support and is not likely to take them to court over this I do not see a problem for them. The bm gets the benefit of not paying cs and not having to be responsible for her kids 11 months of the year so I think that it is reasonable for mom2emall and her dh to make this request. It may cost bm more money but she can use some of the money she has saved for not being financially responsible for her kids for years and use it for her flight to pick up and drop off her children.

The part I meant that a court is unpredictable is:

"Also, if this were to go to court for any reason, the children would get six weeks in summer to be with mom, because she is out of state, as well as every second holiday."

As far as flying, I would hope the court would look at the individual situation (age & maturity of children, number of children, length of travel, etc) when they make a decision, but I agree, this BM probably doesn't want a judge to decide anything, especially if they've already decided the father is to make the final decision. Of course, if I were in his shoes, I'd write a schedule and make her stick to it. She shows up a day late, she loses a day. She cancels, she cancels. I'd feel bad for the kids and they shouldn't have to go through that, but BM knows that the dad will let her get away with changing things to fit her convenience because the kids want to see her. She's using her kids to get what she wants, and SHE is being unfair to her kids, not him. If she cared so much about seeing her kids or how they feel, she would be on time for every visit and not cause them any stress by changing things. Kids like to know what to expect and changing things at the last minute stresses them out. and if it stresses out her caregivers (dad & stepmom) then it will stress out the kids even more.

This wont work with flying plans, but I had trouble planning Sunday dinners and Holiday plans...Sunday was visiting day, and I d make a big Sunday dinner and the kids would say, oh I cant eat a big dinner, we re having SUBWAY tonight!!! LOL So I planned NO dinner for Sunday, just snacks, and when they left DH and I would go out to dinner!!!And Christmas and Easter, was like pulling teeth!! If I said can you come the Eve, no moms doing Eve, I d say the Day, no moms doing the Day!!!What ever plan I made , she d say no, I guess power trip, I get to choose, not YOU SO I just stopped making plans.. I wait til the last minute The kid NOW says what are we doing, and I say, Let me know when you have time to stop by, when you re not busy....Takes all the power away from the situation...I m happier now, SO much less stress.....

we never had court arranged visitations, we just did it to mutual and child's satisfication. whatever worked. It did work, not always but most of the time. I just knew to never plan anything for DD for summer, Christmas and Easter breaks, i knew she would be gone.

As i think now I would not let 5 year old fly, what if she would get sick. DD was 10 and yet I worried myself sick.

oh don't even start with holidays and sundays...

we can never plan anything with BF. Everything was planned for older SD to come here in April, and she called last weekend and in the middle of nowhere announced that she comes in March. First she says she comes alone, then she comes with a boyfriend, then she called she comes for a week then she said just for 2 days. No consideration that other people have plans!!!

Younger SD is the same way: says she comes for dinner, when dinner is cooked calls that she stays at moms. Then we decided to go out since she stays at mom. while we are out she calls that she wants to come home and needs to be picked up from mom. Then she says she has to be driven to college at 1Pm, then at 12:45 says she wants to go back at 4PM. I can't even count how many weekends, dinners etc were ruined.

as about Holidays don't even start. a day before "we are coming for thanksgiving dinner", thanksgiving morning: "mom is upset we are going to you, we are staying at mom", 3PM: "we want to come to you, we don't like ti at moms. oh you won't be home. then we come at 10PM". 10PM: "we are not coming staying over night at moms". 11PM:" we want to come to you but we have no car here and mom is too tired, come pick us up". every single holiday I and BF have a fight because of this. And I am talking 26 and 19-not babies. And BM is the same way, sometimes just to make sure they come to her not dad she would invite them over but when they show up she isn't there and leaves a note she will be back late. Then they call dad: "mom is not here so we are coming over. oh you are not home, make sure you are home at 9PM because we want to come over".

I dread holidays. i am glad i am gone for Easter break this year to see my DD so i won't be a part of plan changing ordeal. And my plans with DD were made in December in regards to March. Nobody calls nobody with plan changing ideas.

ima,

My point was that child support and visitation are two totally different issues. If BM filed for visitation, the court would not automatically open a child support case. That would have to be set in motion by DH or the child support system. If DH was on welfare, the child support case would already be opened.

Well when she lived in state my dh was like a spineless jellyfish about visitation. She would cancel without calling, show up when it was not her day without even a phone call, and keep the kids longer than planned and we had no way to call her to see what was going on! My dh just dealt with it. One time she took the girls out of state with her (driving) and they were supposed to be back on a certain day about noon she said, because she said she had work that afternoon. That night no kids or phone call. We called her work to find out she called them and told them she would not be in, but she did not have the courtesy to call us. My dh asked her about it and she said "I did not get a chance!" UGGHHHHHHH! Just so ignorant!

As far as now, when they tried to work out visitation last summer bm did whatever she wanted and changed dates. My dh stuck to his guns and made her pay the extra money to change to flights back to the days he told her. She whined about it, but oh well-her fault! I do have to drive the kids to the airport (my dh will probably be at work when they need to go), which I will refuse to do if she has not paid for those darn pictures! If she or her family has money to fly 3 kids out of state then they can sure pay for pictures she ordered! My dh already said that when they do call to make plans he is not even discussing dates with them until we have a money order in our hands for the full amount. She does not pay cs, the least she can do is pay for pictures she picked.

I sort of remember this .. grandparents were going to take you to court for visitation/custody?? if I remember right.

In hubby's court order says mom has to decide by June 1st what two weeks she will be taking the children. She took them one week in July we basically had to bribe her ... we spent nearly $300 on groceries (bought enough for 3 weeks) and gave her $50 in cash. He kept asking her all summer what other week she will be taking them... she refused. (Mom was laid off so she couldn't use work as an excuse)

They went back to court in Sept. she was in contempt for not taking them the second week ... but summer was over not much could be done. So now we have set summer dates.

Nivea is correct support and visitation are two different things... they have to pay support, visitation is negotiable.

Mom I would tell hubby to get something from her ... anything even if its $25 a week its not the matter of the amount of money as long as they have to pay it. If it were the other way around and she had custody ... he would be paying immediately. They wouldn't leave court without an order for support. And get a set summer visitation schedule even if you can't do a school year one ... and be as specific as he wants it ... she must pick up the children until youngest is an age you feel comfortable letting them fly alone what ever age that might be .... as custodial parent he has more of say in any arrangements. It will probably not effect this summer but the next few summers should be more structured.

Our state has all the papers needed for modification and visitation and child support online ... fill them out print them and file... contempt cases are heard with in 30 days but hubby has a court order and mom was in contempt for any number of things on a daily basis.

When you do go to court take the bounced check with you and ask the court to have her reimburse you ... they will ... hubby had a check from mom every time he went to cash he couldn't they wouldn't even cash it .... she closed the account.

Hubby and ex are in court every 3-6 months so why can't everyone else go to court for every little thing. Hubby already has a court date for Aug. This will be the longest stretch they went in January (7 months).

He can outright refuse ...and tell her "take me to court".