I'm new to this forum as well.I don't know the answer to that, except that maybe it's the women you have been meeting. I personally would appreciate someone like that, but seem to attract all the users. I don't get it either,but if you're looking at someone who is "eye candy" or a "trophy" then you may be setting yourself up for trouble.

No....it is not the women he is meeting. I have noticed this also.

I asked a girl why we didn't click one time, about a year after a fling. Her answer? You were TOO nice!! I asked her if I should change...and become an a$$-hole? She said noooo. Got give her credit for being honest I guess.

I have been told by most women that I am one of the nicest guys they have ever met.
Some say they have never had a relationship like this. (respectful) One girl's reason for breaking up was....get this..."we don't argue like normal people"!!! (And the problem is??) They all invariably say, I have never met a man like you. You respect me. (Houston...we have a problem)

Some women say they like a man that takes control of a situation....like a cop, or a man in uniform. Then, turn around and say he is controling. ( and the surprise is??)

It doesn't matter what you are...they are going to want the opposite. That has been my experience. And...by the way. I took that girl's advice...and did not change. ( I am still single too)

Good luck dude.

wangshan: No I am not looking for eye candy or a trophy woman. To me beauty is below the skin it is what is in the heart. The outside beauty can be changed in an instant by an accident or illness. Inner beauty always outshines the outer beauty to me.

Bogi: You sound just like me. I have also been told that I am too nice or that they don't want to lose my friendship since they feel like they can talk to me about anything. The best marriages are the ones where the couples are friends and can tell each other anything and can communicate about anything. You are so right with the following statement:
"Some women say they like a man that takes control of a situation....like a cop, or a man in uniform. Then, turn around and say he is controling. ( and the surprise is??) "

I tried being an a**hole one time for awhile and it seemed to work, I had more girls interested in me and I got more dates but as Shakespeare said "To Thine own self be true" so I went back to being me and poof they were gone.

If I may give another woman's point of view...

I get the same treatment from men. I'm not the tall, thin, blonde type - overweight, red head and "nice". Do I get asked out? No. Does my thin blonde friend? Yes. It goes both ways.

I never liked the "bad boy" type - but I know those that do. I'm fortunate that I found my nice guy. Is he a little overweight - yes. Is he more of an intellect than a jock - most certainly! A little on the nerdy side - You betcha! Do I love him? Hell yes!

Don't give up - I think the nice guys will eventually win. I know of two of my single (divorced) friends who married bad boys. Both are in therapy (as are their children) and would love a nice guy. Not eye candy, not anything but nice. Both of my girlfriends were mistreated, some emotionally, some physically. Those bad boys never grow up. Neither girlfriend can get a dime of child support out of them. They finally figured out they were losers.

Don't give up. Don't give up. Don't give up! There's some nice girl out there wondering where the nice guys are.

Barbara

ROFLMAO!

This is today's cartoon by Randy Glasbergen. Timing is everything.

I think it's not so much about "niceness" or "badness." Bad boys, so to speak, have a swaggering confidence in the world and with women. "Nice" men sometimes seem reticent and less confident. At the core of behavior, I think women want someone who has a sense of mastery over his world and life. Animals choose mates based on their genetic worthiness, humans aren't that different under it all.

And what about all those men who seem to have terrible taste in women? Hmmm? And always go for the gold-digging, heart stomping, cheating tramp with tight clothes and the big boobs? Oh, never mind, I think I answered my own question...

;-)

BarnMom - you're a hoot!

BarnMom, I do have a a swaggering confidence in the world and with women. I am not reticent or less confident. I do have a sense of mastery over my life and world and it still seems that is not enough. I think women want someone who is skinny or built like a body builder.

Its true that many women are attracted to the Tom Cruise types. The problem with that is, when they take the guy home, they wake up next to  well, Tom Cruise!
Scary thought, isnÂt it?

Well, regarding weight. I don't care to date a man who is more than a little overweight. For numerous reasons. It's not attractive. It's not healthy. I want someone who will be around in ten years! Heavy men snore. I am a small person. Certain activity (if you get my drift) is simply not pleasant with someone really overweight. Love handles, okay. Look like you're 7 months preggers, NOT okay! And it is a reflection of how the man feels about himself and a reflection of his level of personal discipline whether or not he cares for his body.

I won't date a smoker, either. Add in the reason that they smell bad and aren't kissable. I like to hike, play golf, be physical. I want someone who can do those things, too.

I don't see men lining up for those size 26 women, either. For the same reasons, I imagine.

If you are serious about meeting someone, be as appealing as the person you wish to attract. Lose a few, buy some clothes, get new glasses, and have a friend take a good look at your hair. If you are doing a combover, stop it! If you are wearing ugly plaid shirts, lose them. Yes, what's on the inside is far more important but if you can't get someone to pick up the package, they will never know. The health benefit of taking off a few pounds will make you feel great about yourself. Women aren't all that keen on bodybuilder bodies unless that's what they are all about too. Those people spend all their time together spotting each other! But a few push-ups and squats and a half hour on the treadmill never hurt anyone.

Honestly guys, I think BarnMom is giving you some good advice. I did the online dating thing briefly before I got to busy to mess with it, and I was pretty serious about it. I had a couple of people proof my profile, had a friend take some good pics of me, etc. Most of the guys I ended up going out with were taking it pretty seriously. But the ones I wasn't interested in, well it was like they were making minimum effort and expecting maximum results. That isn't going to cut it with the modern single woman. She works hard to support herself and put herself out there as someone desireable and worth spending time with. She's gonna be attracted to someone who does the same. I'm just in the process of breaking up with someone because he is just too minimalist for me. There are some women who just want a guy, no matter what, and will put up with a lot, but they are kind of codependent, if that's what you want. Otherwise, you have to try and be the kind of horse that some gal will want to hitch her wagon to, in other words, someone who will make a good partner. And that means showing you care, care about her, care about yourself, and care about others in the community. Caring about yourself means living in a clean well kept house, wearing clean, well kept clothes, and looking "well kept" yourself. Get a female relative and friend to give you a critique of how you could enhance your appearance. I know, I know, how disgusting! Well guys, WELCOME TO OUR WORLD. Ya'll care a lot about this stuff, and now the tables have turned. Get a hold of some reruns of "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy." The concept is not totally far fetched! I know, it's yucky! But if you're serious about this, do it. For the spiritual aspect of this, I recommend the book, "Dating Secrets of the Ten Commandments."

Hey hal, I think I was being a little harsh in the above. Maybe that doesn't apply to you. I have suffered from the "nice" curse over my lifetime too, lol! A friend once said to me, "The reason you're still single is you're not like 90% of the rest of the people in this world, those people are, (expletive deleted, but it was in regards to a cross between a horse and a donkey). So that only leaves you 10% of the people out there to work with."
Statistics are on your side though hal, and the longer you live, the better they get. If you're in your mid fifties, there's probably 10 eligible women for every eligible man. Don't get discouraged. I think it's just that your personality hasn't "clicked" with the women you've gone out with so far. You've got to keep a balance between sounding interested in a woman and not sounding desparate. I once went to a singles function where one guy was going around introducing himself to all the women there and immediately asking them out. That gave the impression that he was looking for anyone with an XX chromosome who would go out with him, and it did not give the impression that he cared much for any particular woman as an individual. So the only other thing you might watch for is take time to get to know the women you are potentially going to ask out, then take time to get to know them more as you first start dating, and think about whether you actually are all that compatible. Don't try to twist yourself into a pretzel just to accomodate what you think the woman will like. Be a little "hard to get" at first. This is not game playing. What I'm talking about is exercising discretion and discernment.

Well here is my crazy theory - I think it probably goes back to the cave man (and cave woman) days... Women's actual survival depended on matching up with an aggressive male, so he could help her kill food and keep away predators. Nice, gentle cave guys probably got eaten by wild beasties and so did their girlfriends. Maybe we're still kind of programmed. What do you think?

I'm new here as well but found the subject interesting and wanted to give my opinion.

One reason women may gravitate away from the nice guy is that most women don't think of themselves as queens. They think if you're always nice and always treating everyone like a queen you're not really seeing THEM. We know we have faults and that we're not always right. If you always agree with us and always treat us like a queen then we know that you're not really seeing US. We want someone who will take the time to know who we are, both the good and the bad, and still care for us even though we're not perfect.

As for the weight issue, if men take care of themselves and dress well they look good whether or not they're a little overweight. The same goes for women. If you wear clothes that are unsuited for you and makes you look like a slob you're going to turn people off. It's an indication that you don't care about yourself, your appearance, or your health. When we choose a partner we want them to be around for a long time. Healthy people live longer and are more able to participate in life.

I'm intrigued by this "nice guy" thread. I'm one of those single woman who is looking for a nice guy. I'm now dating a man who would describe himself as a nice guy and you know what - I am BORED TO TEARS by him.

No, I don't need him to treat me poorly in order to become interesting to me. But, for gosh sakes, can't he take the lead on something?? He leaves all the dating decisions up to me. I bet he thinks he's being nice by doing that. To me, he's taking a back seat in this relationship and letting me steer everything, which leaves me cold.

So, a question to you nice guys who are having no luck - are you boring your dates to death?
In the guise of "being nice", are you leaving all choices up to her? Her: What would you like to do tonight? You: I don't know, you tell me.

Women like suprprises and romance. If the woman has to pick everything you two do together - well,the surprise element goes right out the window.

Surprise does not have to be a helicopter ride over New York City. Has she cooked dinner for you more than once? Well, why not bring dinner to her? It's a nice treat for a single woman to come home and be able to stay home and eat a fabulous meal.

I picked that example because it's near to my experience. I've cooked a Friday dinner twice for my nice guy. Then I stopped because I wanted to see some reciprocation. Well, we have not had dinner together on a Friday since. It's been two months since I've cooked and yes, we are still dating. I've told nice guy that pizza is not one of my preferred foods. Well, one Sunday evening, he offered to come over and bring pizza. I said OK. A couple of weeks later, he called to come over and again offered to bring pizza. I asked that he get me spaghetti, he said OK, but then the place he had ordered from only carried pizza, so he felt he could only bring pizza. I'm wondering why he could not think of anything else. Does "nice" equate to "unimaginative"? But yet I'm sure he will say to other people that he's a nice guy that no woman appreciates.

I find myself making allowances for how he bores me. His conversation bores me, but he's a nice guy. I find his humor silly, but he's a nice guy. When he called me to ask if he could take a picture of me to show one of his coworkers, I was stunned. I asked him "Are you 18 or 43?" I guess I should be flattered, but I was turned off by the high-school level of behaviour. But he's a nice guy.

So, nice guys, you can't go on thinking that it is your niceness that turns women away. Maybe it's the things you do, or don't do, or say, or don't say. It's not the niceness that's doing you in.

"I'm now dating a man who would describe himself as a nice guy and you know what - I am BORED TO TEARS by him." "His conversation bores me..." "I find his humor silly..." "I was turned off by the high-school level of behaviour."

"...yes, we are still dating."

Amazing. And a great pity.

Why the pity, asolo? You can date someone you find boring. I believe my nice guy finds me boring as well. When you date someone who bores you, you make sure to do things that involve âactivityâ and you stay away from one-on-one self-generated-fun activities. We frequent a music venue that has community seating. So when we sit together, there are other people at the table as well. People there are generally friendly and I can usually get a conversation started. No, I donât abandon my nice guy, I involve him, but I am much better at the conversational dance than he. But everyone ends up feeling âwith itâ and social, and the evenings are fun. One night we were even told âwe make a handsome coupleâ. Goes to show that you never know what is truly going on with people.

Movies in a movie house are good dates with people who bore you. Watching a movie in your own home is not a good date with a person who bores you. Bowling is good. Playing board or card games is not good. Arcade type nightclubs such as Dave & Busters is a good date with someone who bores you. Going to an intimate jazz club, where the two of you sit alone, is not a good date.

So again, why the pity? Donât nice guys lament that women never seem to give them a decent chance? Iâve not told my nice guy that Iâm bored by him, but I have said to him that I feel we donât have much in common. To which he replied that I should stop looking for things we have in common and just let things happen. Not a bad point, and I told him that, but I have real doubts that boredom can be overcome. You have to be able to talk with someone you plan to have as a life partner.

Addendum to the nice guy: please take some chances when you are dating. Iâve told my nice guy that âI donât feel like company this weekendâ. And sure enough, he makes no attempts to reach me all weekend, not even for conversation, and I find myself missing the old boyfriend who called me on Saturday even though I said I didnât want company. In my view, the old boyfriend understood the sometimes fickle nature of women and took a chance. Looking back at my dating life, the men who I loved best seemed to understand a womanâs occasional fickleness. The nice guy asks permission for everything first, which turns me off. The old boyfriend didnât judge me, or point out what I saidâ¦in my view he listened with his heart instead of his head. My nice guy is a stickler for pointing out âwell, you saidâ¦.â. Which makes me think he needs to be told everything, he has no inner wisdom. Like when the five-year-old says âI hate you!â to his mother, the mom has wisdom to know this too shall pass. (It also says to me that the nice guy has a monumental fear of rejection. My nice guy has confessed to being very bad at asking a woman out on a date.)

You've answered your own question better than I could.

Beauty....(boredom)....is in the eye of the beholder.

We all have the ability to speak. The onus is not squarely on either shoulder.

After a time....it becomes..."all he wants to do is.....(enter line here).." Courtesy is not boredom. Women do not like (all) surprises.

If you say..."yes, I do".....you are not being truthful.

If you don't speak up...shut up. There is enough boredom blame to go around.

Quote...

""The nice guy asks permission for everything first, which turns me off.""

End result. If you are nice...you are boring. If you take charge...(see above)...you are controlling. Anyone else see a catch22 here?

I have to agree with some of the things Cube said, although not to the extreme. What I would say is that I am absolutely looking for a nice guy, would not even consider a "bad boy" but yes, I am a successful, independent woman and I want a guy who will make some decisions as well. Have an opinion, argue your point, don't just be a door mat and have that "whatever you say/want" attitude...that is NOT sexy. There is a huge difference between having a spine/opinion and being a "bad boy". Find the happy medium and you will be a hot commodity!
Erin

I don't get it. Why keep company with someone you think is boring? Are you doing it on principle -- "See? I'm living proof that some women DO want a nice guy, even if he's boring as #$!!" Are you hoping to build up some good dating karma -- "If I allow myself to experience excruciating boredom with this guy, perhaps the universe will ultimately send me someone UN-boring as my reward."

Good grief, if you don't enjoy someone's company, why bother? It's not against the law to go to restaurants or movies or elsewhere just because you're by yourself.

I love that phrase I heard a few years ago: "Better to be alone than to wish you were."

Karen

Here ya go......... www.dullmen.com

Don't know if there's a female equiv. Should be.

Not every man I date has to be "the one", whatever "the one" translates into for you. The MAN is boring, the time I am having by dating him is not boring. I admit to building up my "dating muscles". Dating is fun. More people should date more people. The more you date, the less likely you are to think you found "the one" because you both like rum raisin with chocolate syrup. You will have dated many people who like rum raisin with chocolate syrup with whom you don't really want to spend the rest of your life.

I'm very adept at dining, traveling, movie-ing alone. I still do those things. But I also get to go out to fun clubs with an escort, and I get invited to parties because of the guy I'm seeing, and I won $200 at a casino I went to because of him. SO there is fun to be had, even if the nice guy isn't "the one".

Who said anything about holding out for "the one"? I just don't understand why any woman would spend time with someone who doesn't enrich her life because of who he is, versus what he can do for her? I can go to fun clubs by myself or with female friends if I choose. And winning $200 is a matter of chance, not determined by whom you're with at the time.

Confused,

Karen

It is not that women don't like nice guys. It depends on how we perceive you. Are you too nice aka too easy and eager? We like the thrill of the chase. Before someone jump all over me - I am speaking from personal experience (had lengthy discussions w/ friends on why I choose the bad over nice). I am after currently chasing a loser because he's something that I can't have - not that I want him but just wanting to see how far I can go. In the meantime, I have several nice guys who are interested in me but because there is no spark I do not pursue them. The physcial attraction is definitely there between me and loser and I guess part of me is hoping that we'd change. We go to the extend to overlook the flaws of someone because the attraction is there. If there is no attraction, no amount of effort will get the attention of the person you desire. You just have not met the woman who appreciate you for you.

So what do you do when you are a nice guy? If you make decisions for the woman she will assume you are controlling and if you ask for her input you are seen as weak.

Most women do like nice guys. Most women date, fall in love with, and marry nice guys. Almost all my friends are married to genuinely nice guys who treat them well, love them, and respect them.

You know those women who say they like nice guys but always wind up with the jerks? They say roughly the same thing about men that you are saying about women. It's not that they have poor judgment in men, it's that almost all men are like that and it's really hard to find a nice one. Or that all the nice guys are too busy chasing young, beautiful blonds to pay any attention to *them*. Or that there arent any guys who are both nice and fun, interesting, good company, whatever. Know what? It's BS. Know what else? So is the notion that almost all women date jerks or are so stuck on looks they need a hottie with a perfect bod. If those are the women you keep meeting, then your taste in women or your methods for meeting them could probably do with a little fine-tuning.

Let's go back to that cartoon Mimi Boo posted. "I've noticed that you're attracted to bad boys. If I turn off my virus software and stop backing up my hard drive, would you go out with me?" Now, think about this a minute. Ok, chicky who likes bad boys may have bad taste in men. What about computer-geek? What about his taste in women? Why is it he wants the girl who likes bad boys? Why on earth is he jumping through hoops trying to be something he's not to impress her? Isn't this just as stupid as her jumping through hoops trying to impress her bad boy de jour? How about, instead of chasing after some girl who's obviously not right for him, he address his poor taste in women and go find himself a nice girl who keeps her virus software up to date and is impressed by guys who do, too?

And, why on earth are men so quick to believe women who tell them they turned them down because they are "too nice"? Honestly, guys, has it ever occurred to you that these women are either trying not to hurt your feelings or just too chicken to give you an honest answer? Would you believe a woman who said she dumped you because you were too handsome or too rich? Come on, guys. "you're just too nice" is the same as "it's not you, it's me." It's a line. She might actually think you're a nice guy, but that's almost certainly not the reason she is dumping you. In case you are wondering (although, it probably hasn't occurred to you), most women have also been told (while being dumped) that "you're just too good for me". That doesn't mean that men don't like good women. It just means that people have a hard time being honest about why we reject each other.

Also, there are many, many men out there who describe themselves as nice and (as nearly as I can tell) actually believe they are nice but who in reality are not nice, or at least are not particularly nice to the women they date. This brings up a whole other issue, but I think Ive rambled on quite enough for the moment. Just briefly, you can be polite, charming, chivalrous, romantic, etc and also be a liar or manipulative or selfish or arrogant or holier-than-thou or controlling or thoughtless or judgmental or passive-aggressive (lots of self-described nice guys seem to be rather passive-aggressive) or patronizing or, or, or "Nice" is in many ways as much or more in the eyes of the beholder as beauty.

Wearing nice clothes has no affect on women... nice shoes yes but everything else matters not. Nice shoes are the male padded bra.

Sometimes I wonder if it is a self-esteem thing. Better to be abused by the motorcycle riding convict then to risk rejection by sucessful gentleman. Perhaps it could be a princess thing where no guy is good enough until she gets drunk and then latchs onto the nearest creep because she is starved for attention. Could it be the alpha male myth? Guy is mean and stupid but a sports hero and popular with the other guys so the gal exchanges black eyes for social status.

Women don't care about money unless you don't have any. What her friends think of you is often more important then what she thinks of you... and if her "friends" don't want to see her with a nice guy then he is outs. Backstabbers of both genders commonly sabatage the relationships of others because they won't stand for others to have a moment in the sunshine.

I don't know...

: )
michael

Geesh. How grim.

Honestly, I think none of this matters when the right person enters our lives. I have been smitten with complete paupers, millionaires, and lots in between.

However, I run for the hills at the first hint of controlling or mean-spirited behavior. Smack the dog, I'm outta there. Call me names, I'm history. Tell me you want me to behave a certain way, I'm gone. It won't get better with time, only worse. I've begun dating again after the end of my marriage seven years ago. The above scenarios have all occurred in the past year of dating. And these guys wonder why they are single.

One man I really liked accused me of stealing from him, then called me a player (hardly), then kept text messaging me telling me he missed me and wanted a relationship. Right. (We had all of 3 dates, and no he didn't apologized for wrongly accusing me of theft.)

Yes, one guy popped his roomie's pesty and love-starved dog on the nose. Nope, might be me next. (First date.)

One man called me psycho (too long a story to repeat here but unjustified and baffling) and cancelled our first meeting in a fit. Fine, works for me, I don't eat with men who call me names. Went through that with ex-husband. The next day he called me a couple of hours before we were scheduled to meet and asked if we were still on. Ahhh, no.

One date (date 6) told me I was supposed to wait for him before going into the store. Huh? Ten paces behind, too? Sorry, last time I looked I wasn't chattel.

One first date couldn't/wouldn't read body language and kept touching me as I backed further and further into the corner at Starbucks. I finally told him to STOP when he tried to slide a hand up my pants leg. And HE acted offended!

One seemingly nice guy I met is stuck. He took a year of talking on the phone, chatting, and emailing before finally making a date to meet. Okay... We met. It was good. We talked after, we both agreed meeting again would be nice. Two months goes by... phone calls, chatting, emailing. No second date. Hmmm... I'm done. I told him I wasn't going to wait for a date any longer. No hard feelings, I needed to move on. He said okay... Nope, I'm not going to analyze it!

I don't know how this connects to this thread about nice guys. I'm just saying it's tough dating world. And there are the ones who seem to go online and place their order for their fantasy woman and expect her to be delivered via UPS.

I want to mention here that with the exception of the Starbucks date, I spent between 4 months and a year getting to know these men via phone/chat/email before meeting them.

**"...yes, we are still dating."

Amazing. And a great pity.**

**Why the pity, asolo?**

It's a pity because you are waisting this guys time and yours to.. And your and his energys are being placed in the wrong spot. And while you are with this guy, you won't be able to find your right guy and you are holding him back from finding his right girl.. It is selfish....

Well, IMHO, I think neipert came closest to how I feel on the subject. First off, we have no actual data to answer this question. Just what does "nice" mean would have to be defined, and then we might be able to test what women do or do not like, and how many of them do or do not like it. Even then, I hazzard a guess that the results would be mixed. From what what I know about traits, I would have to imagine that there's going to be a wide variety of tastes no matter what aspect of human appearance or personality we're dealing with. Quirk mentions and explains some of that variety in (her?) response.

So the only thing I can add is that Cube's response also struck a chord for me. I dated a guy who went along with everything I said or wanted to do all the time. One would think that would be paradise. He bored me, but I wanted to give the relationship as much of a chance as I could so that I could get to know the "inner person." This guy had tremendous difficulty with true intimacy, the boredom was a symptom of that disease. People who have difficulty emotionally are often boring because there's a severe limit on areas they feel comfortable operating in. If you treat a woman in a fabulous, albeit superficial way, this is not going to play well in the long run. This superficial wonderfulness can never lead to intimacy, for intimacy ya gotta dig a little deeper and that might hurt a tad. And you know us gals, we are all about the intimacy, darn it!

The thing that I didn't like about the always going along with me, is that it did put a lot of onus on me for "running" the relationship, so I didn't feel like I was actually doing something with a partner, more like dragging someone along for the ride of my life. Also, a lot of times the "going along" had hidden resentment and contempt in it, but because no opposite opinion or idea was ever expressed, no compromise or resolution could ever come up. People who have trouble dealing with conflict are going to have trouble in relationships.

And I agree with the queen thing. If a guy treats me like a queen, he is not seeing the real me, and being treated superficially like that does not give the impression that you care about the person underneath the female body. I felt like I was being "managed" or "placated" which is NOT respect.

One of the greatest lessons I think men who are nice albeit a little unsuccessful with women could learn and take to heart and apply is that women are objectified all the time in our society, subtley, by all kinds of people, situations and things. Just think about how often you see breasts, butt, lips, hips, etc. ads on this forum and you'll get just a little idea of how pervasive it is. If you care about the personality and personal traits of your girlfriend and can comprehend the unique soul, character and contributions your girlfriend brings to the relationship, then you will in turn get a little respect yourself. Treating a woman "like a queen" is just another form of objectification. The woman you are with has a complex spirit and soul.

Think of soul music, that has an edginess and guts to it. And to get soul in your music you have to really give a lot of genuine emotion to it. Same with your relationships with women, (GOOD women that is). If you want them to take hold and root you are going to have to dig a little, go out on the edge. Probably get your heart beaten up quite a bit along the way. Which will then make you want to close down and forget the whole darn thing, yes I do see the Catch 22! Believe me, I wish there were a good way around it! The only way around it is to keep looking until you find a woman who is just as scared and superficial as you, she IS out there! :-)

And ya gotta have a bottom line level of health and appearance, which shows self respect.

And there is a difference between strong character and being pushy, bossy, abusive and overbearing. The difference is the level of respect and awareness you have for what's going on with other people around you. This is not an XY strong point, but interpersonal skills can be worked on and developed. I'm sure there are books on it, lol! And you know us gals, we are all about the self-help books! :-)

One week before Christmas I asked my ânice guyâ why he pursues me because (a) I donât give him much encouragement, ( b) Iâm critical of his attitudes about life, (c)we donât have much in common. I said these things to him. He tried to justify his pursuit by saying he thinks âopposites attractâ.

I then asked him to tell me about his BEST relationship. He said all his relationships have been good. I said âYou think what WE have is good?â He did not have a response.

I know that many women in his life have treated him much the same as I â» heâs the âfill inâ guy, the one you call when the one you want is not available OR you are at loose ends in your dating life. Iâm basing that on the stories heâs told me. Heâs always available â» that is because no one heâs been with really wants him to be their one and only. Some women have treated him very shabbily.

I pondered âWhy?â Why does this man keep calling me? Then it hit me: Just like some women, some men are eager to be rescued. Rescued from loneliness, rescued from feeling they have never been chosen, rescued from the dating game. When we make choices from a standpoint of need, we usually make poor choices. Thatâs why the nice guy continues to go out with someone who obviously does not want him. Thatâs why women seem to need to read âHeâs Just Not That IntoYouâ.

So my nice guy refrained from calling me through the holiday season. I gained a little respect for him. But heâs started calling againâ¦Iâve put him off , saying I have other plans. I decided to stop beating this dead horse. I want to return to âjust friendsâ. My nice guy is having a hard time transitioning to âfriends without benefitsâ. Which, to me, says he never wanted to be a friendâ¦so just how nice is he, really?

Iâd bought him a nice platonic Christmas gift (set of Huggable Hangers, $20) but he refused to accept it. He said he gives to charity, he doesnât buy gifts for people who donât need anything. I said it was OK that he did not buy me a gift. He still refused to accept the gift, so my question is again, just how nice is he? He was unable to be gracious and accept a gift, yet he swears he is a nice guy. He elaborated by saying he could be non-reciprocal with a âcloseâ friend. So here I am thinking âyou can âboinkâ me but you canât accept a $20 gift?â What a nice guy.

It occured to me, who is saying he's a nice guy? The guy himself? If he is, he's not necessarily a nice guy, but a conceited one. Nice guys are just nice. They accept the $20 Christmas gift and they give you something just because they're nice. Your nice guy could have made a donation to charity in your name... that would have been nice.

I think you have made a wise choice.

"Some women have treated him very shabbily." --(describing a "nice" guy)

"Sometimes I wonder if it is a self-esteem thing. Better to be abused by the motorcycle riding convict then to risk rejection by sucessful gentleman." --(explaining why women don't like "nice" guys)

See, this is my point. A woman allows herself to be treated shabbily, it's "why do women like a-holes instead of nice guys, look at the way she lets guys treat her, look at the jerks she dates. Must have low self-esteem". A guy allows himself to be treated shabbily, it's "oh, he's such a nice guy, what's wrong with women that they don't like nice guys like him".

Why is the guy nice and underappreciated by women and the woman makes poor choices because probably she has problems with self-exteem?

Either of them may be nice people, but they are both, for whatever reason, making poor dating choices, and the results reflect the choices they make more than it does their inherent "niceness", or some kind of over-generalized concept of what the opposite gender finds attractive.

(yes, lpink, I'm a her)

For those of us on the site who are a little (or more) overweight, the question is why? I know I love my fruits and veggies, I love going to the gym, paticipating in sports. So why am I overweight because I choose to watch tv, play on the computer, and eat chips and dip. Why do I do this instead of going to the gym, and eating healthy? If I could figure that out I would probably have the body I've always wanted.

This is the same with dating. We all want the good guy with a good job who loves us, but we keep choosing the bad boy, the emotionally unavailabe, the chronic liar, (subsitute your type here) Why? Most of us don't know. My problem is I like to rescue people, I guess it makes me feel needed. The problem is most people dont need to be rescued by someone else, if they feel that thier life needs to change they will change or at least attempt to. But if they cant change on thier own, chances are I can't help them either.

My theory is that as we age, we realize that there is more to a person than muscles, clothes, etc. I'm 64 years old, & things that were sooo important when I was young are no longer that important. I don't want someone who doesn't care about his appearance or is dirty & unkempt, but give me a break, no body's perfect. Things that really turn me off are smoking, heavy drinking, cruelty or drug abuse. I've dealt with all of those & don't care to do that again. A nice, responsible, smart, caring, communicator would be a GOD SEND!

For popularity's sake why date an ugly man? Well as we grow we care less on attitude but in the end beauty becomes second in line. That's the reason why they don't date nice guys.

I want a nice guy. I want someone who wants me for my head not my boobs or netherparts. I want someone with whom I can have an intelligent conversation. I want someone who cares about his appearance, but doesnt have to be George Clooney. I want a guy who is respectful of others and is not selfish. I want someone who doesn't expect sex. Don't get me wrong, I want and like sex, but I don't have sex with just anybody.

We are out there.

Another thought. I am sure you are a nice guy, but it is so important to look at the whole picture and wonder if there is ANYTHING you can improve about yourself. Of course, there are things I am working on changing about myself so I am not living in a glass house. If someone is not dating, there are several reasons or a combination thereof:

you aren't in the right places to find your kind of person. (ie bar, church, volunteer opportunities, the gym, clubs...)

there is something about you that is not attracting the right person. I am not saying you (or anyone) needs plastic surgery, just that there may be something off-putting about yourself or signals you are giving that are not letting others know that you are interested. I am not speaking about psychic signals, just the human signals that we all send out to others. Ever notice that not so drop dead gorgeous person who has to fight off the attention from the opposite sex. They have something that is saying: I am interested! Talk to me! Ask me out on a date!

Do you attract the wrong kind of person? Some women attract or only seek out men who are not kind or abusive. For some underlying reason (maybe they think they don't deserve better) they want men who will be unkind to them.

There are other reasons, I am sure. I am not a psychologist, but I will add my 2 cents about attraction and relationships.

Read some books on how to "be the kind of person you would want to date".

Don't know if I have made sense, but I think you have to work on yourself before you will make significant progress.

I HAVE THE REAL ANSWERE.....
I feel for you poor bast... you have been working out and trying to make yourself as appealing as possible and you are a really nice guy and you can�t get the time of day from any of the woman under 150lbs. you have emailed every woman on the dating site and only a few responded and most of those quickly forgot about you and only two actually met up with you at starbucks and they turned out to be bbw's that fooled you with their head shoot only pictures, so you look at yourself in the mirror and wonder what the hell is wrong with me? am I really that undesirable?
I have been there man, but I have also had to choose between beautiful women at other times in my life. So what is the difference? The answer is (and know it may sound a little crazy) but there is an energy around all of us and it can be positive or negative and you can�t see it but on some sub conscious level woman can sense it and when you feel good about yourself and have confidence that energy is positive and when you feel bad about yourself and lack confidence it is negative and woman can sense it even remotely though email and phone conversations. trust me brother you not a undesirable as you think realize that you as good as any man, get your confidence up real high, and make your energy real positive, and you will not be able to fight them off. Honest it will work.

angelheart7 has a point. We try to describe it in a hundred different ways. Your level of confidence, if you are assertive or go for what you want in life (which was mentioned about nice guys not being aggresive) as well as being TOO aggresive (which someone else mentioned and felt it was a catch22)

But, it's really not. The extreme of either is going to be less attractive, and as angelheart7 pointed out, it really does have more to do with that positive energy that you give out that other people can sense.

It's not just about women/men relationships either. It's something that any other human can sense about you. Some people call it karma, some call it self fulfilling prophesies, auras, and who knows what else.

The reason people say go exercise, is because this tends to increase confidence and energy which means you start acting differently. You walk around feeling good about yourself, looking cheerful and happy which then makes you a more positive person for people to want to be around. It doesn't have to be exercise, it could be any hobby or activity that makes you feel good about life.

A few people have made really good points as well in regards to what it means to be a "nice guy". There's a difference between a guy who is nice, respectful, with a lively personality, a love for life, motivation and inspiration.. and a guy who is a rug and will let the girl he is interested in step all over him because he's "nice" and doesn't want to rock the boat. Girls DO like nice guys, but they don't like rugs.

I don't know and of you guys who posted personally, so i can't give any specific insight as to why one guy in particular is coming across wrong to women or why they are not interested. It is much much more complicated than simply being "nice" or "not nice". There are so many different definitions of what it means to be nice. And it still depends on what girls you are aiming at as well. What it is they are looking for in a partner, and the body language signals you are giving in return.

Maybe being nice is your best quality? Who knows!

fyi as an interesting side note, they've done scientific research as well that shows women are attracted to more "cave man" types which are the rugged square faced guys (bad boys) when they are more likely to get pregnant, and attracted to guys with softer more feminine features otherwise. (guys who are more likely to stick around and raise the kids theory). So, it's true there is a lot of chemical stuff going on between men and women as well that we are usually unaware of. More than we realize.