netshound you might want to post your question on the remodeling forum.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/remodel/

Whoops! My bad. I'm stupid..I'll do that, Thanks!

Ask for pricing on different things and see what prices you get. If you tell him your budget and you don't have an idea what things cost, if he's not ethical, he could really take you for a ride!

I think that budget should be discussed at the first meeting. Everyone needs to be on the same page. Now I know there are less than honorable contractors out there but not every contractor is like that.

I know what youÂre thinking, "If I tell him $10k and the job really costs $8k, heÂll just bid $9800."

From my point of view as a contactor if youÂre hidden budget is $10k and the "fair" price for me to do the job $20k, thereÂs no way weÂre getting together on that price. Now youÂve just wasted a fair amount of my time and youÂll waste a fair amount of your time meeting with other contractors who will tell you $20k (or there about) too.

On the other hand, if youÂre budget is $10k and my "fair" price is $11k, weÂll likely be able to work something out. You get the work done, I can pay my mortgage. Everyone is happy.

A while back I made the mistake of not asking a customer what her budget was. Spent quite while working on the proposal. Our proposals are right the first time. None of this, "Oh [with wide eyes] you wanted a floor. Now how did I miss that? ThatÂll be an little extra." Long story short, I follow up on the proposal and the lady says something like "thatÂs a LOT more than we expected!". "Well what did you have in mind," I ask. She mentions a number about ¼ of our price. Hmm, that doesnÂt even pay for the materials.

Good luck!

Mike

I wouldn't reveal your budget at the outset. The pricing should go through at least one iteration before specific numbers are discussed.

Tell a contractor what you want to do. Over the phone someone might be able to provide an "order of magnitude" number $5000, $10000, $100,000?
Or he should be able to visit and provide an estimate. I emphasize "estimate" because this is not a refined figure. If you like the estimate he should then prepare a detailed quote.

"From my point of view as a contactor if youÂre hidden budget is $10k and the "fair" price for me to do the job $20k, thereÂs no way weÂre getting together on that price. Now youÂve just wasted a fair amount of my time and youÂll waste a fair amount of your time meeting with other contractors who will tell you $20k (or there about) too."

This "wasted time" is called marketing, and is part of the business. I wouldn't expect a detailed cost on/after the first visit, which shouldn't "waste" too much of your time. A detailed cost should be supplied after the preliminary number when both parties are on the same page magnitude-wise.

I'd be leery of telling someone what you want to do and saying that you were thinking it would cost $XXX. If you are over-estimating, some contractors would not correct you, but instead would take the job and say "I can do it for that".

My 0.02

You can play hide and seek all you want but you better be very specific what you want done and give the GC as much info as you can supply and especially how much square footage you have in mind. Tell him you need ball park numbers before you get into the details remembering the devil is in the details. You also don't say what you want to remodel. A kitchen? $10,000 might get you a new counter top and a new floor.

It seems to me that anytime you build a relationship on mistrust that you're headed for trouble. If you don't trust the contractor to give you a fair price why would you trust him to do the work?

As for "marketing" or "overhead" certainly any business incurs these expenses in the course of business. The problem is that in the end the cost is passed on to the consumer.

I agree that the discussion of the budget should be range although I think increments of $5,000 is pretty big for a $10,000 job. IÂd think that $2,000 would provide a better basis for discussion.

Mike

I have bid out several jobs on my house an ususally have an idea of the real cost, within 10-20%. I generally ask them to "ball park" the work after an intial meet, and I might drop budget numbers 1/3 to 1/4 below what I actually have to spend. I don't mind paying a builders "mortgage" for a few months, but I do not want to put his child through college on my one job!

That said, I have also realized that the cheapest is not what I want anymore. Quality construction and materials cost money, no way around that, and I prefer quality these days.

"It seems to me that anytime you build a relationship on mistrust that you're headed for trouble. If you don't trust the contractor to give you a fair price why would you trust him to do the work?"

Trust is earned. Especially in today's world, if you don't have any prior experience with someone blind trust can get you burned really bad. Why do contractors ask for significant up front money before they start a job?

Don't they trust the customer to pay?

This is a two-way street we're talking about.

Contractor's ask for money up front to assure they'll get paid, just like many other professions. A lawyer's retainer comes to mind.

I understand that trust is earned but starting a relationship with deception doesn't seem like the best way to go about building trust.

"Today's world" seems to be a two way street too. Far too many people look at construction like a trip through the drive thru. Quick, cheap, and sufficient 'til the next meal. Certainly not unique to the trades seems to be a growing lack of pride in one's work and endless time on one's knee's at the alter of the quick buck.

Mike

Why do contractors ask for significant up front money before they start a job?

Don't they trust the customer to pay?

This is a two-way street we're talking about.

That's not about trusting you to pay, it's about not financing your purchase for 30-60-90 days.

Let's say you order 15 clad wood windows and you want them prefinished in stain at an approximate installed price of $17,500. The fair earnest downpayment assures me that I'm not going to get stuck with 15 prefinished windows should you decide you can't afford it.

I know...there are legal channels. BUT, those legal channels will cost me 2/3 of what the contract price was.

If you want improvements done, get prepared. Study the products and the installation requirements. Then, call someone and have coffee with them. If your values are similar to theirs..proceed.

Michael

Mike would you agree that this wasted time might be better spent working on a quote for some one that can afford the work. or maybe doing payroll or paying bills.
What some don't understand is that most of us have a good idea of what something is going to cost when we walk in the door if you get the how much out of the way right up front than you both can get down to biz.
As for trust yes both parties have to trust each other and usually the big deposit is the first step in building that trust. Quite frankly if I come and give you a bid for a job and you say that you don't have the deposit guess what I no longer trust you. If you say that the deposit check will be ready the day I start now we are starting down the right road.

Boy did this topic stray.
The original post asked "Do you tell GC your Budget first or No??".

I say no. IMHO, You don't need to open your wallet to someone to get a bid on a job, and failure to do so doesn't necessarily indicate mistrust.

You also shouldn't have to show any green to get a rough estimate for a remodel. Customer response to the rough estimate, will establish the customer's buget implicitly.

At contract time a detailed estimate (budget if you wish) is established.

Up front money for material procurement, is not up front money to me. The customer has agreed to purchase the material for his project and should the deal go south, then he gets to keep his material. Up front money is labor money, i.e. paying someone for the work before the work is performed. Depending on the contractor's operation, this may or may not be necessary for him to maintain cash flow. Larger reputable companies have float available to pay workers during a job and don't have to ask for up front money (unless they don't trust the customer to pay). After work is performed they ask for payment (it may be partial as the job progresses), and a savvy customer will withhold the last payment until the punch list items are completed.

bottom line as far as I'm concerned, is that as a consumer you don't need to disclose what you think something is worth to the seller first. The seller should offer his product and his opening price, then let the bartering begin.

Trouble is, in remodeling, the 'product' must usually be tailored to fit the budget. If the budget is $10,000 for a bathroom remodel, the short answer is that yes, a bathroom remodel can be done for $10,000. It might be not up to the standards you want, or it might be more elaborate than you planned.

For $10,000 in this location, you could get all new fixtures, mainstream brand (but not designer), a nice quality tile (again, not designer), and labor. It would not include redesigning the layout, moving plumbing, installing a tile mosaic, replacing rotten studs or subflooring, or rewiring to meet code. Asking the GC candidate what type of bathroom remodel he could do for you for $10,000 would be a fair (and shoud be free) question. But nailing him down to an exact, binding on him (but not you), quote for a project that may or may not meet your hidden agenda? That's asking him to do a lot of work (for free) with a low probability of success.

If you have reason to believe that the scope of work equals your budget, or possibly more, I'd ask in terms of "What's the largest amount of work / best quality you can provide while still meeting my budget of $XXX." If the scope or quality doesn't meet your needs, you and the contractor can discuss where to trim, or whether a budget revision is in order.

I think there are about as many dishonest homeowners as there are dishonest contractors. It takes good faith and a willingness to make some compromises on both sides to have a good working relationship. If you demand better-than-average work, expect to pay a higher-than-average price. That's only fair.