Hey, if you're happy with your choices and can afford them, then don't second guess yourself! You don't need to feel embarrassed by your plumber or feel the need to redesign everything. The plumber was probably thinking that you were going to be in for some serious sticker shock - many people are when they get their bids - but again, if you can afford it and are happy with your choices, then go for it!

Well, it was more worry around the bid and that worry was amplified by the comment from plumbing company. I will wait and see what the bid is and go from there.

Here's how I am - love designer clothes but would never wear something that had designer's name on it. I love understated elegance which is what I'm trying to achieve with this design. Thanks for your post.

Also keep in mind that you may be able to get some of those items cheaper from other sources. Think of it as getting some of those designer labels at the outlet.

My sink and faucet for the main kitchen sink area were around 1/4 of that bid...add in the vessel sinks and the shower fixture and the faucets and gad I didn't even mention the plumbing bill....honey, I got what I wanted, got the highest quality possible, and didn't worry about what anyone thought. I don't have labels on any of them that say they're a "Whatever" but I and DH know that they're the best quality. You want to save money? Do it elsewhere but don't stint on the plumbing!

If you can afford it, do it right. If you can't that's another issue, but don't let the plumber's help you with design advice....let one lean down and expose a crack bigger than any granite can develop...and you can then ask yourself why you wanted this guy to be happy with your design decisions...

wow. that's a bit harsh.

sounds to me like the guy was just trying to prepare you for a big pricetag. he's probably dealt with people in the past who order up a ton of stuff and are then upset when it adds up to so much money.

from how it was presented here, i didn't interpret it as the plumber questioning your design decisions.

i think your feeling of embarrassment is on you, not on your plumbing company. which, i think, is a good sign. sometimes we get a bit carried away with this stuff and how nice everything is, and it can be helpful at times to have someone or something bring us back to earth in the midst of all this conspicuous consumption. (which, let's be honest, is what all this stuff is)

not saying you shouldn't buy the stuff you want, and i'm not trying to be holier-than-thou. i'm just as guilty of it as the next person. but it is what it is. our priorities as a society have gotten so out of whack that we're in here obsessing over 60" wide refrigerators and $40K cabinetry while people are starving, homeless, and going without proper medical care.

The phrase "embarrassment of riches" springs to mind. which is what i believe you may have been feeling as a result of your plumbing contractor's well-intentioned reminder of what your fixtures are going to cost.

blaming them for being somehow out of line for informing you of the pricetag might be an easy way to make yourself feel better, but i don't think their comments are really why you found yourself feeling that way.

Actually, I wasn't "blaming" anyone. My topic header was really meant to be humourous.

I totally appreciated the fact they called to give me a heads up on the price tag. It is good to question what's really needed and what isn't. For that matter I don't need to do the remodel when my old kitchen and bath work just fine. I siimply was feeling a bit anxious and knowing this is a safe place to talk and to give and receive advise, I simply shared what I was feeling.

I've never been a joiner to begin with and when people post back with unneeded criticisms or make assumptions, it gives me pause.

Thanks to those of you who have offered kind words and encouragement with my previous posts.

it wasn't meant to be a criticism. i was just trying to offer a different perspective.

didn't mean to offend. if i did, my apologies.

My plumber was just telling me he installed a $10k shower the other day, so your numbers don't seem bad at all.

I think the *idea* of a 'heads up' is nice, but so much depends on tone and delivery-- it could come off as super insulting.

And my last line was entirely kidding :) But the balance...darling spend every penny you can on the plumbing because it's worth it :) I'm sitting here in our second place with only one out of four bathrooms that fully works (and that's a generous term) because the valves either are leaking, don't turn on or off, or are very noisy in all of the other bathrooms...all with cheap plumbing. Every one will come out and be replaced with quality :) Good pipes are always worth spending money on!

Igloochic you make me smile - even though we may not agree on knobs :), you seem like a funloving, generous person. Nice to know our numbers aren't completely out of whack. I agree with having good fixtures as we've had nothing but trouble with ours. Thanks again!

lisapico,

I'm doing a super-budget remodel of bath and kitchen that doesn't begin to approach some of the numbers mentioned on this site, but even I don't have ANY problem spending as much as I can possibly afford on the plumbing -- it's one of those things where you pretty much do get what you pay for, and wonky pipes that misbehave will ruin the entire rest of the job. Go for it! :)

Lisapico,

I feel like we are somehow related. My family and I are in the same situation...to buy or to remdodel, that is the question! We too have decided to remodel; however, you are one step ahead of us as we have not gotten any bids as of yet (very scared). May end up buying after all.

Back to the related thing, I am the same way about labels. I want very nice things for my home and my wardrobe but do not feel it necessary for everyone to know who made it or what it cost, and that is what true style is(unless I found it really cheap, because I do like a good deal, then for some reason I feel like I must run to the mountain tops and scream to the masses about my bargain). My twelve year old son is now the label wh*r%!!!

As far as the plumbing fixtures, maybe the plumber did just want to give you a heads up as he thought he might be being helpful. But the bottom line is, get what you really want and can afford because I think you will regret it later if you don't.

Lisa, if your plumber pre-orders and you end up changing your mind because you didn't realize what you were spending, well... he ends up with a re-stock fee he has to eat.

Obviously he's been burned before and just wanted to make sure you knew the numbers. I can guarantee you that more often than not, those calls he makes are met with an incredulous, "What? Are you kidding me? That can't be right!"

He wasn't second-guessing your design, honey- just watching out for his bottom line.

I'm with pbrisjar, you may want to consider shopping around for the fixtures as you may find a better deal. Therefore, you may not have to scrimp on your bathroom fixtures. You may also want to get a second opinion on the cost of your plumbing project. I had 3 bids all very wide ranges. In the end I chose the one that was HIGHLY recommened (not the most expensive either) as igloochic is right, you can't put a price on good pipes.:)

Yes, yes and yes to you all. Actually I don't think the plumbing company had been burned so much as they really had never put in faucets and fixtures of this quality. In fact they said, we mostly put in Moen and Delta and this was new for them. They also said their labor costs would be more because the plumbers would be reading directions that normally they wouldn't bat an eye at. So, we'll just see how it works out.

Lourisana Purchase - if you would like I would be happy to post my bid from the contractor as soon as we receive it. I don't know what you're doing but here's what we're doing: new hardwood floors on entire upper floor; new wood trim and mouldings; overhaul of 1/2 bath with new toilet and pedestal sink; overhaul of MBR with travertine, marble, Barbara Berry bathtub and fixtures; new kitchen with inset cabs, granite or butcherblock island; commercial grade appliances. Whew! My KD is guessing around $130,000.00 and I'm guessing $150,000.00. We should know soon.

Wow, and I was sticker shocked by a $2875 plumber quote the other day. I was convinced they had a misplaced decimal.
I think it's great they did a reality check for you. They've probably seen KDs haul a client down a path of fabulousness a few hundred at a time, then completely freak at the final price. Sounds like you're fully aware of what you want tho, so enjoy it!

- D

Yes, that would be great. What part of the country do you live in b/c I know some of these things can very greatly from place to place.

A short synopsis of what we plan to do is below:

1. Turn current breakfast room into butler's pantry/mudroom (odd combo).
2. Remodel kitchen (very extensively).
3. Remove wall between current kitchen and carport and turn carport into keeping area w/ fireplace, bar, & desk area.
4. Move utility room.
5. Add small bedroom/study.
6. Add new MBR/BA.
7. Replace floors throughout entire home with hardwood except baths.
8. Remodel current full bath and 1/2 bath.
9. Update electrical in existing house.
10. Fix a couple of issues in existing house.
11. Replace windows and doors in current house to match new.
12. Replace existing mouldings and trim.
13. Renovate outside.

Again just a very quick synopsis, but sounds like we are in the same boat. Not to mention, like you wanting to use higher end products. Any help would be great!!!

Thanks,
Shannon

Shannon - you can email me at: webertl@comcast.net. We can chat more extensively that way. Thanks!

Lisa

My plumber called my dh with almost the same question
"Does your wife know how much all this stuff costs?" Thankfully my dh just laughed and said yes she does.
And that was without the kitchen sink and the pot filler. I think the
kohler pot filler sent my plumber over the edge, he called me and then my husband and asked if we really wanted it and do you know how much it costs!!!
I am lucky to have him because he gave me close to his cost on everything and it was still outrageous.

They also said their labor costs would be more because the plumbers would be reading directions that normally they wouldn't bat an eye at.

I would hope not a LOT more. And I'd hope it wouldn't take them that long to read it.

Expensive faucets aren't installed all that differently from Moen.

I thought of you today Lisa and had to visit this thread and see how it was going. I thought of you as I crawled under the sink in the master bathroom today to turn off the hot water, since that particular faucet has decided to permanently dribble out hot water...it just can't turn far enough to be "off" anymore. Bad faucets!!!! Beware!

And then I read the post you just posted about the plumbers not knowing much about anything but moen etc. Let me just give ya a heads up on my situation....

In our house (the one with the knobs that make you run screaming) :oP I have mostly custom work, including the plumbing. Quality and a bit different...exposed shower fittings, a waterfall faucet for the soaking tub...heck a japenese soaking tub...undermounted, vessel sinks, island sink, etc. I used a plumber we've used several times for the job. You'd have to have been around a year ago to hear how much I bit...umm complained about them on this thread, but it was bad Lisa, very bad! They installed the high tank toilet three times...It still isn't working and they have ruined the pipes for it, as well as broken the marble floor while trying to make it work. They installed the pot filler line wrong and had to remove it (after it was drywalled) and reinstall. The soaking tub took three tries....they couldn't handle the wall mounted faucet and handles in the powderroom...they're crooked and had to be on the "redo" list. The gas stove threw them off, and the gas line will need to be moved. The water line on the sz wasn't where they thought a fridge water line would go, so that had to be redone.

My recent bill was $15,500 and some change...and much of that was "redo" work because they had to read directions and often didn't take enough time to do that (field hands). They've been fired and I have a new finish plumber hired who has done vessel sinks, franke faucets, etc.

I'd reconsider that bid for someone who is more familiar with the quality of the plumbing fittings if I were you...I'd guess my "estimate" and the final cost will be about $5,000 different (higher) and most of that cost is repair work for the field hands who didn't read specs or directions! And then there's the cost and time necessary to redo half of the marble floor, and the venetian plaster wall they wrote on and cut holes in twice to attempt that toilet...

Igloochic - all I can say is I feel horrible for you and the problems you've had. That is a lot of money to spend on something that should have been done right in the first place. If they installed it wrong to begin with, why are you stuck with the bill?? Seems to me they should honor the work they did and if it was done wrong, they need to fix it at their time and expense.

I am assuming that the plumbing company my contractor uses will guarantee any and all work. Am I wrong in that assumption?

lisapico,
my plumbing fixtures came in at $18,000 and some change. That did not include rough plumbing or finish plumbing. I guess I had a little sticker shock, but knew from internet shopping the approx. price range I was looking in. I too, wanted quality and classic elegance. I don't need labels per se, but need stuff that works and fits our home. We also are working on a construction loan and need the house to get the after appraisal that we need it to get. I think common sense is great but you also have to live in your home and you know what will make you happy. There is a price range for everyone and if it fits your price range , go for it.
I am interested in seeing your fixtures. I love mine although they are not installed yet. I love beautiful fixtures and especially good quality ones.
One note if your horrified by my bid. That $18,000 number is for 7 .5 bathrooms, large kitchen with 2 Rohl fireclay sinks, pot filler, wet bar, it includes all sinks, toilets, showers etc. Still alot but it is going a long way.
Enjoy your fixtures and send pics.

igloo chic, what does it mean when you refer to the contractors as "field hands"?

Lisa they sent me a bill that was just a total, with no adjustments. I'm not paying until I see the adjustments (there were other issues like standing on an 1840's chippendale chair with muddy shoes on...and destroying all of my luggage kicking off the pump station and ohh lets see, standing on the antique rocker (DS's) and busting it).

No, don't assume they stand by their work. Get it in writing :)

edlakin, what I mean by "field hands" is the lower level guys that the plumbing company sent to do some of the work. Some were actual plumbers, some were...I used field hands...flunkies, who were learning their trade in my house while standing on chippendale chairs.

Lisa;

It's interesting how differently people have interpreted your original note. Our GC, in an almost-avuncular tone, took me aside early in the planning stages to "caution" me about the cost of the crown moulding (let alone other trims / casings) we'd selected for our project. (one eight foot piece of crown alone was $1000 [because the wall is curved, so it had to be made out of flex and, as it's a "custom" profile (one my husband and I designed ourselves) the flex company (in CA) had to make a new mold for it])

Because I already had a good feel for the sort of person our GC is and I was in the situation (not reading about it, I mean) I understood he was trying to help me not have a heart attack when I got the bill. (The crown [material, not labor] alone, not inc. base, not inc. casing., not inc. trim, was >$15K. Gulp, but I love it!!!)

When I read your post(s), I automatically heard my GC's kind, caretaking tone from your plumber's point person. There's my bias. So when I read the rest of your note, I was left thinking "isn't that nice that they wanted to make sure you understood what you were getting into?" I think v. often so many of us bite off more than we can chew, simply because costs have a way of spiraling .... (ours did) Plus, most of us aren't serial remodelers (or flippers), meaning we aren't always aware of the (mounting) costs of fixtures plus labor.

There are some incredibly cher fixtures out there which are crap -- they have The Name (whatever the name du jour is), but they haven't the good innards. Please make sure before you spend any money on your beautiful reno that your house has good (plumbing, electrical, mechanical, etc.) "innards." What a waste to put in a beautiful faucet only to have problems with the pipes in the walls or from the street!

I also want to say I believe I read edlakin's initial post in a completely different way from you: I thought s/he was just trying to help get to a potential root of the issue. It might not be your root at all! I know that I am a little embarrassed about how much we are spending on our nearly-whole house reno. It's gauche in our society to talk about money, plus the truth is, within myself I feel horrible guilt about why I have been so lucky when so many others the world 'round have not. I think about the flooding in Bangladesh and all those displaced people and it makes me wonder "why me? why them?" I think you'll understand, Lisa, because you wrote that you "don't need to remodel" -- if I read into your comment(s) correctly, you know it's a real luxury to get to change something which already works for something which will give you pleasure. And I love it. Our kitchen is not yet done but even still, walking in and seeing my dreamy countertops just makes me happy. So for me, to have that feeling, was worth $X.

I believe I am generously charitable with my money, my time and my positive thoughts, but it is still something about which I think. That's me. I'm pretty sure that's from where edlakin was coming -- not trying to attack or pigeonhole you. I also don't think his/her "blaming you" comment was directed at you ....

So the way I understood your plumber's comments were merely to give you a head's up, not to sway you toward or away from what you want. I think you're on a great path: getting bids for all your Dream Objects (from your fixtures to your countertops). After you have those bids, only you and your partner can determine if it's feasible or if something needs to be trimmed. I wouldn't start altering fixture / countertop choices yet: I'd wait until I had all bids in hand. You might not need to change a single thing!

As you and louisianapurchase (of whom I am quite fond!) have been chatting, costs for the same item / labor 'round the continent can and do vary widely. I'm in Colorado and for what you're planning on doing I think you'd be lucky to get that all done for $200K. My fingers are crossed your KD is right, though, and that it comes in closer to her figure. I confess, sometimes I am really envious of the prices people here have quoted for various objects (cabinetry, for one) in other parts of N. America. But I don't live there. I live here, so I have to pay "here's" prices.

I am v. excited about your upcoming reno -- it is going to be lovely. Congratulations!

great post. you said what i was trying to say, but far more sensitively and tactfully than i was able to. nicely done.

______________________

edlakin, what I mean by "field hands" is the lower level guys that the plumbing company sent to do some of the work. Some were actual plumbers, some were...I used field hands...flunkies, who were learning their trade in my house while standing on chippendale chairs.

well. i see.

ok, while i totally agree with you that there's no excuse for standing on your antique chairs or any of the other examples of inconsiderate behavior you noted, I'm a strong believer in "you get what you give" and arrogance and condescension is simply oozing from your posts. I can scarcely imagine what you must be like to deal with in person.

again, no excuse for bad behavior, but....karma--it's a b*tch!

OP, IMO, never take design advice from a plumber - or any other tradesman. If you designed it, you probably know more about it than they do. Let them take care of the mechanics; that's what they're paid for.

If there is a mechanical reason that he doesn't like the product, that's a different story, but your plumber probably likes you & was trying to save you money. In 20 years of renovations, I've yet to meet a tradesman with a sense of style above the ordinary. But ALL of the tradesmen I've used like high qualty fixtures - they say they're a pleasure to install.

i don't even see where the OP said that her plumber (or anyone else) was giving her design advice in the first place. they simply informed her of what her choices would cost.

The OP did choose the title "Design advice from a plumber" but I agree that the plumber really didn't give any design advice - just pointed out the cost of the items up front. We often get posts on this forum of the form - "oh my god, I just got my bill for xxx and it's $$$, I had no idea!"

Actually, what I didn't mention in my original post, was that the rep from plumbing company and I spent a lot of time talking about our overall design. She shared what she designed in her kitchen and bath and gave me some info on different options of what I could do regarding everything from countertops to fixtures. My fault for not following through with that thought.

Edlakin - thanks for your post. I think you caught me right after I'd posted and I was sensitive. When I read that I was a "bit harsh" and "blaming them", etc., it just didn't come off right to me at the time. I feel okay spending the money if we can do it as we do give lots of our time and money to various charitable organizations. It's just that I don't go around talking about my beautiful Kallista bathroom and custom kitchen without a great deal of sensitivity around whom I'm sharing that infomration with. I know I can come here and talk about it all I want because many of you are/have been in the same position as myself.

So, again, thanks to everyone for your input. It's appreciated.

just to set the record straight, when i said something was "a bit harsh" i was referring to the person who made the disparaging remark about the plumber's crack, not you, lisa.

It's just that I don't go around talking about my beautiful Kallista bathroom and custom kitchen without a great deal of sensitivity around whom I'm sharing that infomration with.

why?

It's called decorum and tact. No more, no less.