Well, it's not a bad plan, really, although I can see your concerns. If you don't want to do something that drastic, just a radical simplification of the island would help a lot.

At first glance, your current kitchen looks really functional. But I can see where the island would be in the way. While you might have the galley feel when you look toward the oven end of the new design, I don't think it will feel that way on the other side with it being so open to the living area. Are three bar stools enough for you with the new plan? I see you have another stool in the current kitchen.

The design would be great if you didn't still have a corridor kitchen.

Is there the possibility of moving door into dining room farther into the center of house so you can deadend the cooking area? Until you get the trespassers out of your cooking area you will always be unhappy.

Libraleo,

If there is no longer room for a kitchen table in the half octagon area what are you going to use it for? It seams like wasted space that could be incorporated into the actual kitchen layout. JMO. Pevo

Warning: I am a relatively untrained eye. But the first thing that I thought of is that there is no handy landing spot for refrigerated items. Where are you going to put the bags when unloading your groceries? It appears to be ~6 feet from the closest countertop. And then, there is the landing spot for taking stuff out of the frig -- once again, about 6 feet.

Also, I am guessing that you would be doing prep on the counterspace b/t the cooktop and sink. (Over the DW?) -- I would want the garbage closer to the prep area. Maybe someone can come up with an idea to use the windowed area behind the proposed bar area.

I'm not loving this plan. There's no landing area by the frig except across the way on the range or in the way of anyone cooking. Imagine yourself making a sandwich. You grab the turkey, mayo, and lettuce. With hands full you kick the door closed and walk all the way over to the half wall peninsula where I'd imagine you have silverware and plates. You walk back to the frig to grab the mustard which you couldn't grab on the first go around because your hands were full. Walk back to the available counter. Make your sandwich. Take 2 trips back to the frig to put things away and maybe a couple of trips to the sink during this process to wash lettuce, or hands, or knives, whatever. That nice long counter betwee the cooktop and sink would make great prep, although I'm not loving the dishwasher in the middle of it, and the tiny counter on the left of the cooktop would be not enough for me.

I think you can do better. Where do all those doors lead? Do you want an eat-in table in the kitchen or are you happy with just counter seating? We're happy with just counter, but if you like a table - you should have a table. How many cooks are there? Kids? Ages? Do you bake often? Do you start things on the cooktop and finish them in the oven? Any chance you could post a layout of the whole first floor so we can get a better feel for the traffic patterns in the house?

In addition to the other issues raised:

- Long walk from fridge to sink for prep. The workflow should go fridge and pantry>water source>prep space>range. Doing that with the proposed layout has you circling back multiple times.
- Picture the traffic jams while someone runs to the fridge for a snack while someone is cooking, baking, roasting, etc.
- Where do you put hot roasting pans coming out of the oven?
- DW is right in the middle of the prep space, leading to traffic jams and, um, discomfort
- Dishes are stored a pretty long way away from the DW

Can you move the door into the dining room further "south"?

It looks like clean up would be awkward: if you're standing at the sink scraping dishes, rinsing, then putting in DW (so garbage is pulled out and DW is open) you'll be pretty hemmed in at the sink.

Although I give the KD points a creative solution, I'd have the same concerns that you do. I'm hoping some of the layout gurus can help you reconfigure without the new walls coming into the space.

traffic flow has to be seen from a whole-house viewpoint. Zoom out. Post the house floor plan. Even a house floor plan wouldn't show what is outdoors and why there would be cross traffic, but we can probably fill in the blanks.

As it stands now, it requires a lot of thought to see what the current floor plan is (transposing photos of existing onto the layout posted) and a lot of guesswork to suggest where to make a change that would (perhaps) solve all the points raised so far.

There are so many awkward angles in this space leading to a lot of wasted space.

Couple of questions- #1 -what are you going to do with your octagon space now? Is there a view out the window? If you don't need it for eating or sitting How about straightening and pushing out the peninsula into the space a bit and making it a true 90 degree peninsula.

#2 - How often do you use the small appliances and microwave? Can you exchange it with the pantry and bring the pantry then more into the flow of your work space?

#3 - Speaking of the microwave - do you actually need double ovens or can you put the microwave into the oven tower.

#4 - Can the wall ovens go where you have the dishes as it gives you some landing space for them on that funny counter and takes them out of the way of the aisle from the dining room.

#5 - put the fridge where the ovens currently are to bring it more into the kitchen work area as well.

#6 - what is the space across from the pantry?

#7 - if nothing else can you extend your peninsula by 6" and put the DW where the garbage is? You'll be closer to your dishes and when standing at the sink won;t fall over the DW door when its open.

It seems like you're trying to make the best of an awkward layout and I can see that. I also think there is a better plan in there someplace. Right now I see alot of walking and carrying things back and forth to the prep area by the range in your future.

Hopefully some of this makes sense even if you hate it and discount it . That's ok, I'm just throwing out ideas.

It is an interesting space. I think we (and hopefully you) are going to have some fun.

It looks like the current kitchen was designed as a sort of cockpit kitchen for one person - cooktop, sink, refrigerator, counter are all accessible from the narrow ''working aisle'' - and everyone else is supposed to stay on the other side of the island. Unfortunately that working aisle also looks like a main traffic path. Is that why it does not work for you? Can you help us understand what is not functional - for you specifically? How does the island now get in your way? Is it during meal prep, are you constantly circling the island to get food, retrieve pots, get to things stored on the other side, etc? Or is it when you are moving food and plates between kitchen and dining table? Or is it that multiple cooks and bottlewashers can't fit in the working aisle? Or is something else?

What do you want in a kitchen? Room for multiple cooks? Room for big baking or prepping projects? Kid's homework space? Party central? Leave-me-alone-and-let-me-cook space? Lots of burners? Double ovens? Lots of wine storage? Prep sink? Walk-in pantry? Just trying to understand your needs. The space is big enough that you should be able to get most needs met.

I don't like the plan too much, for the reasons mentioned (everything is in a traffic aisle, etc) but also because there is only 48'' of prep space, and that is right over the dishwasher. In an interesting space like this, you should get more - space.

Oh, I also would like to know what is in the octagonal space at the top of the diagram. Breakfast table? If so, why a breakfast bar 4 feet away? You're not running a diner, after all.

-

I think you can do better also, but it is going to require some outside the box thinking.

Is there a reason the triangular space behind the pantry and broom closet is not being used? Is the wall space above the pantry needed for pipes or other mechanical things? Is that wasted space? Can you tell I like to use every inch of kitchen space? ;-)

Do you want counter seating or a breakfast table? Do you have children (or expect them) and what ages? Any special interests or activities to take into account? These questions all have to do with any leftover space and how you'd want to use it - a desk, play space, craft space, homework, comfy reading chairs, more kitchen work space, etc.

Toying with a couple of other ideas while I'm on hold with customer service....

Thank you so much everyone! Lots of good comments which just make me even more concerned about the plan.

In response to the points raised so far:

The door to the dining room can be moved further "south" but not much, there is a powder room behind the kitchen.

The octagon space currently has a round table and 4 chairs in it. It overlooks our backyard, which backs onto a golf course. We have a nice view. We are really of mixed minds on losing the kitchen table - we don't use it a whole lot (we sit at the island far more), but it is handy when people are visiting and if we don't have it anything requiring a table would have to move into the formal dining room. My husband taped out the KD's design on the floor and there is actually not that much empty space left behind the peninsula. And I liked being able to stand beside the windows without the table in the way. But we also wonder if would hurt resale value of our house (not that we'll be moving for at least 10 years).

We use the microwave daily so it needs to be handy. Small appliances not as much. And double ovens are a wish, but we could live without them - we have for 25 years already!

The space across from the pantry in the KD's plan is cabinets.

The main reason the kitchen is disfunctional is because the island requires that one circle around constantly for access to what is required. And my dishwasher is nowhere close to the only cabinet space available for dishes. The movement of food and plates to the dining table is fine.

We want room for at least two cooks and lots of prep room (but we aren't bakers). We don't have kids so don't need homework space, but we still get the newspaper and like to spread it out to read. The aisles in the current kitchen are really narrow and when we have people over, it's a log jam everywhere in the kitchen. We'd like at least 4 burners, double oven as mentioned above is a wish but not mandatory. Would love a prep sink and walk in pantry (storage is a big problem right now). And at this point, you could put "lots of wine storage" at the top of the wish list!

I can't believe how helpful everyone has been already - thank you so much.

Below is our main floor layout and a draft second layout my husband and I cooked up this afternoon which probably belongs in the garbage.

{{gwi:1804500}}

Alternate layout
{{gwi:1804502}}

You have a real hike to your FR from the garage or front door. (As a side quesetion, that's not a dead end at the end of the hallway to the right, is it? I assume you have bedrooms somewhere!)

Can the FR wall (the one between it and the kitchen) come down if need be? I am wondering what would happen if we extended the line of the powder room door upward to make a more square kitchen. This could be done either with a wall or an island or something. I am trying to find you a more protected space for your range and prep.

In a similar vein, we could close off the door between the kitchen and hall, open up to the FR at the bottom right of the kitchen, and then open the FR to the hall across from the garage door. Done right it shouldn't add any steps but could give you more protected cook space.

bump

IMHO, ditch that first layout altogether - the first problem is no counter for the fridge, the second is that GIANT triangle of DEAD SPACE! What's up with that?

The second layout is better, but again, why a triangle dead space?

Do you currently have a kitchen table in the half-octagon? Because, honestly, in that layout I would aim to keep that space for a kitchen table, preferably an oval one. Mostly because I don't know your budget, but to do anything else with that space requires new windows because the existing ones go almost to the floor. Even if you get new windows and raise them up, I would actually keep that area with a table, but put in a storage banquet seating under those windows. Honestly, the main area is already so large that extending the working part of the kitchen into the octagon will never be functional because it will be so far away from everything else. Also, because of the location of the back door, I think it would be really annoying to work right there with people coming in and out.

That space is really huge, just awkward. IMHO, you NEED an island to make it work. The problem with the island you have now is it's odd shape, not really the size. The island in your second layout is too small.

--

OK, wait, that mini triangle of dead space currently exists, doesn't it? Question: Is that a load-bearing wall? The wall I am refering to is the straight wall that separates the hallway from the kitchen (the mini triangle is in front of it in the hallway to make the bathroom jet-out appear flush) - in the KD's plan this wall is the side of the broom closet. I believe the mini triangle is behind your current oven / stove walls.

Ok, I believe the wall I am refering to is actually the wall your oven is currently on.

If it is not load bearing the solution is simple: Get RID of that wall! Look at your floorplans: if you get rid of the wall the oven itself is on and LEAVE the wall that forms the mini-triangle in the hallway you then have a normal 90 degree angle facing the kitchen between that wall and the dining room wall!

Then what you do is leave at least 24" (preferably 30") of that wall going towards the doorway of the kitchen and you can put a full bank of 24" deep cabinets starting in a normal corner (next to the hallway door - technically recessed from the hall entrance) and extend them to the dining room doorway. Because you have approx. 5 ft. from that side of the dining room opening to the cabinets along the window wall, you can EASILY create a peninsula here - jetting out from next to the dining room entry into the kitchen. So, if you walk in from the hallway (I believe that opening will actually widen (towards the bathroom), to your left will be base cabs and then a peninsula jetting from them. I do not know how long that wall will be, I'm guessing about 5 ft long, BUT, if you are willing to shrink the opening to the dining room by a bit you will have more wall to work with. If so, I would put in either a wall oven or a tall pantry cab first (next to the hallway), maybe 30" wide, then a 12" or 18" drawer base, then a 24" drawer base flipped to face the window wall as the start of the peninsula, and the peninsula itself can either have cabs underneath or be open (with legs at the end) for seating. This should leave approx. a 4ft. wide isle to the window wall cabs. I'd make the peninsula 30"-36" deep if you have seating there. It can jet out 5 ft from the dining room wall and still not block the sink at all.

I would NOT put any sinks or stove / etc here - I would use it as a storage / drop-off / message area. But, I would actually leave the layout along the sink wall exactly as it is now - then the fridge is right across from the peninsula. I would not turn the sink wall into a peninsula at all - I would leave that area as-is so you can still put a table in the window nook.

Actually, looking at your floorplan again, I think I'd do a double-peninsula layout, NOT an island. I would do a corner-return peninsula like the layouts you posted, but I would put it on the OPPOSITE wall - off the wall behind the family room so that it doesn't block access to the table area. I would put another sink here - in the corner of the peninsula, with a cab and counter on the end. The wall behind the family room is approx. 10 feet, so you can have a 36" cab and counter (prep space between sink and stove) and then a 36" cooktop (or range), then 24" cab and counter, then a 24" pantry in corner before hallway door.

I would definitely make the wall above the stove a half-wall so you can see into the family room. If you are a cooktop / wall oven person the best place for the wall ovens is on your left when you enter from the hallway because when you open the oven doors they won't block anything. Alternatively you can get a range and turn that into a pantry cab.

This layout may seem odd because the fridge is away from the cooking areas, but a big problem with your kitchen is that it is very WIDE, yet has very few actual walls that are near each other, and the walls that do exist are short. The benefit is having lots of counterspace and two full-size sinks, so one person can be prepping at the peninsula near the stove and another can be either prepping or doing dishes at the existing sink. You also save alot of money by not moving that plumbing. Granted, you can put the fridge as you walk in (instead of ovens / pantry), but I think having the fridge near a sink is important. As long as you are organized the fridge doesn't necessarily need to be near the stove, but both the stove and fridge do need a nearby sink and this layout has that. You can also add an undercounter fridge on the stove wall if you want.

This is just the best layout I can think of with your space. This is not design / aesthetic advice at all. I'd definitely find out if that angled wall behind the oven can be removed because that is definitely what is throwing the entire room off, and based on the layouts you've already posted, I fear creating a functional and visually pleasing layout with that wall as-is will be exceedingly difficult.

Thanks Marcolo.

There is a staircase across from the powder room that is not shown in the main floor plan. It leads to the second floor where the bedrooms are located.

I would love at least a partially square kitchen. Closing off the door to the kitchen from the hallway is intriguing. The FR wall could probably be removed but its structural and has a heating duct (and maybe other stuff) in it, so it's probably a challenge to move.

A doorway in the FR from the hallway would have its challenges. It's a step down from the hallway to the FR and from the FR up to the kitchen. There is also a fireplace on the right hand wall of the FR. If the wall from the kitchen is removed the only place left for a couch in the FR is beside the new doorway, or at the "top" of the FR in front of the window?

Also, closing off the doorway to the kitchen from the hallway means we would have to trek through the dining room/living room or the FR to get to the front door.

Hope these explanations are not too confusing. I am grateful for all the ideas.

Try drawing an island 42" all along the powder room wall, range wall, and sink. Make it 48" along the oven wall. See what shape that gets you.

You may also want to eliminate the last bend in the sink peninsula.

Libraleo: I'm sorry if yuo've already answered this...I didn't see a response to the question about that little triangle of enclosed space between the kitchen and powder room? Is it filled with something structural or mechancial or can it be eliminated?

Hi melissastar - there is a heating duct in that triangle area...too bad because I really like the idea of opening up that space.

I'm playing with something I don't know is possible -- what is your exterior like -- can you shorten windows or move the door to the deck to the family room? What I'm looking at is shortening the bay windows and putting your sink and DW in that alcove (or change the center window (remove or put in two sidelights) and put the cooktop there flanked by the side windows) and putting a table or banquet over against the wall that backs to the front hall and powder room. The long wall that backs to the family room could be left plain or have some shallow built-in storage (pantry, broom closet, bookshelves -- a combination). If you go with a banquette, you could attach it to an island in some of that open space -- or leave it open. If you have an island, it might give people something to anchor to and stay out of your work space.

It would eliminate the straight traffic lane down the center of the kitchen, make the working parts in an L shape, and let the seating around a table or banquette absorb some of the awkwardness of the rooms shape. Still playing with it but have to take my son to school (late start for seniors today) and run some errands.....

I'm just throwing these out there to see if it comes close to working or sparking ideas. (I'm no layout pro.)
- You could make the bottom wall a deep pantry with roll outs, and the triangle part could be shelves. (You could stick cans of soup or something there.) This helps square off that bottom wall.
- You could have an island roughly 24" wide plus overhang at the top; roughly 48" wide plus overhang at the bottom. (Trapezoid? Rhombus? Some kind of polygon shape...) The island would have drawer banks - might be shallow (15" or 12") depending on how you set them up. They could pull toward the sink, DW wall, or ref wall, again depending on set up.
- There will be wasted space in the island because of the irregular shape, but I don't see a way to avoid that and still have landing space for ref and also reasonable aisle widths.
- Top layout has more wasted space in the island (triangle shaped spaces) but has a dish drawer that opens toward the DW wall so might be handy. Second layout, top bank of drawers could open toward ref or toward sink.
- I shortened the wall by the ref for door swing; added a narrow/tall (4-6") pullout broom cabinet between ref and short wall.
- Island is landing space for ref; counter to left of ovens is landing space for ovens.

Like I said, just a thought to see if it works.

{{gwi:1804504}}

I'd try dropping the 'penisula' on the end. putting the dw on the end and the sink where you have the dw. (dw to R of sink). move the stove a bit toward the sink/window area and see if there's enough room on the end by the DR for the ovens.

then I'd put the refridge on the wall that's shared with the bathroom. put a rectangle island running opposite of the sink/stove area but rounded on the side of it by the FR for seating space.

open the wall to the FR (header if needed) with pantry pillars on each end. shallow cabs that would be food storage with maybe a few shelves for cookbooks or dislplay (or charging shelf).

I'd open the entrance into kitchen area off of the hall more and possibly remove the jutted out part of the wall that comes off of the wall that lines up with the bathroom wall. the kitchen side of that wall could be counter for mw and fridge use. maybe a small prep sink on the end of island by fridge - depends on family size and # of cooks.

dish storage could be in island drawers. island drawers can open on the small end (that would be facing into the open eating area side).

I am amazed at how many people have put their creative talents to work on our challenging space. Thank you so much! I am going to need some time to process all the suggestions and get my DH to draw up some new options. I want to try to make that empty triangle area work as so many of you have suggested.

lascatx, I appreciate your thoughts but major changes to the windows and exterior in the alcove are probably out of the question. We have money to spend, but not that much!

Further ideas welcome and I will be back with some new drawings for you to shoot at.

Thank you again everyone!

From the garage, there is a door to a big hallway.
I wonder if you can put a door into the Family room, across from the garage hallway door.
Then, you no longer have through traffic in the kitchen.

I have to run out the door, but will post-and-run one plan of a couple I have - not thought through at all, but maybe will jog free some ideas for a better layout later.

Basic idea is, groceries come in from garage, are put away in walk-in pantry and drawers under counter and refrigerator. Then food goes to prep zones, two of them, on either side of range (which manages to overlap the window, I did admit this wasn't thought through). Food is cooked, plated, and goes to dining room or to breakfast table. Then dishes go to washup zone, which is the short counter with the larger sink and a dishwasher that is not shown. The clearances don't work at the refrigerator but maybe that can be fiddled. Yes, it remains a galley at heart. I will post another one that isn't. Later. Gotta run.

Here's what I was thinking.

The "walkthrough" pantry isn't meant as a convenient passage, but a way to load in from the garage and take out from the kitchen side, and also keep that doorway in place. There is a new entry to the Family Room.
{{gwi:1804507}}

How much do you really use the dining room? If you only use it once in a blue moon, maybe you can wall up that opening and use that space better. Enlarge the doorway from the hall to the kitchen a bit to open up the view a little. That gives you plenty of space along the walls, and you can put in an island the proper size/configuration to help make your work zones functional. It would still leave you plenty of room on the other end for your kitchen table. When you need to, you can access the dining room from the hallway/living room. Or at least, maybe make the opening to the dining room smaller, giving you a little more wall space.

I t hink palmpsests' idea is really cool.

What about a variation, in which the range is protected by being moved to where pal has the oven, and the prep sink run in that drawing becomes the cleanup area, with a prep sink on the island? This way the cleanup area acts as a separate butler's pantry for both the DR and FR areas.

I agree Marcolo, I was concerned about venting, but that can almost always be worked out. (Sometimes GC's just don't want to complicate it though).

I think this basic tilted square could work in several configurations.

I really like palimpsest's layout. DW empties out to the dish hutch across the way. Frig & ovens have the island for landing space. Great prep space in front of the window. A couple of seats at the island without encroaching into the breakfast nook, so you can keep your breakfast table. Dirty dishes from prep get dropped onto the island behind the prep space and loaded up from the other side at cleanup. Quick snack or sandwich making happens over on the hutch(I've found people like to make sandwiches over the silverware drawer,) or at the island(water,) out of the cook's way. pal's would be the layout I'd be bringing to the cabinetmakers for fleshing out.

I would want to adress the lg. "jut out" and windows beyond the kitchen. could you reshape a one level island to a kidney bean or such with stools at the lg end and place it further into that space more? that might clear your floorspace to do some of the other things being offerred and you'd be beefing up the "great room" concept,which,your family room/kitchen inherently is. I would not give up on an island for your setting.

I think it would be cooler, since the pantry opens into a wall of tall anyway, to use a secret pantry door.

You can see one in this photo. It's helpfully labeled, "secret door."
{{gwi:1804509}}

In palimpset's plan, could you find room for a walk-in pantry in the triangular passage?

E.g. shifting the door to the left, to enter the kitchen nearer the corner, leaving the right part of the triangle for said walk-in? It might allow a wider (but shorter) passage, and might eliminate one blind corner in the kitchen.

I just love walk-in pantries, they give me a thrill, suggesting that my life is boring.