Quick & dirty layout...includes an island w/three seats...

One issue: it will force traffic into part of the kitchen work area. However, I think most kitchen work (except loading DW) will take place deeper into the kitchen. With 33" b/w the door and range I think it would work out OK. The main traffic will probably be going from the Garage to the FR, not to the DR.

The refrigerator, while not convenient to the DR, is convenient to the island and FR and with a finished end panel it won't look like a big refrigerator from the FR.

[Bay window clearances note: NKBA recommends In a seating area where no traffic passes behind a seated diner, allow 32" of clearance from the counter/table edge to any wall or other obstruction behind the seating areaand
If traffic passes behind the seated diner, allow at least 36" to edge past.
You probably won't have traffic behind b/w the window & island, so 36" should be plenty.]

Here's a stab at something that makes more use of your space than your angled setup and still has a bar (that's a counter-height overhang, not a raised bar). That large expanse of counter space could come in really handy for activities for the kids.

This makes the window into a sink area, which may involve more construction that you're up for (see buehl's fabulaous sink area for an idea what this would look like). Also, you could lose the open shelving and lengthen the peninsula, but I just felt like that wall needed something.

Here's the window run Holligator is referring to. We started out with a bay area for eating similar to yours (yours has more room though) but we out grew it. So we replaced our bay windows that started 22" off the floor with windows that are 36" off the finished floor. Then, we installed a run of standard 24" deep cabinets straight across and ran the countertop into the window well. Our kitchen, btw, is 10'6" wide.

And, here's a "before" pic:

Forgot to add...

Our windows cost $2,160 when we had them replaced in January 2008...I don't know if it's in your budget (that's one of the reasons I didn't draw it up...plus your DW wants an island :-))

If you can do it on your budget I highly recommend it!

I really like the idea of putting a row of cabinets and counter along that window wall. It always felt wasted in every design. I know I don't fully grasp how much work those changes would entail but I really like what it does for the kitchen. It even got an "ooh!" out of my wife. Unfortunately, the idea of moving the refrigerator along the wall by the family room got a wrinkled nose from my wife.

Is there a thread (or series of threads) describing your overhaul, buehl? Is that $2160 for the windows themselves or did that include all of the changes to that wall and everything? I think I need to go do some searching to learn more. :)

Thank you both for your ideas and suggestions.

I think Holligator's solution is perfect! I wish I could put in a sink space like Buehl's.

I really like the use of the bay window that others suggested. Would your wife be ok with moving the fridge over 18 inches from where it currently is? Otherwise the only fridge that would work so close to the wall would be one that opened the wrong way - we had our french door ("fd") right next to a wall as a temporary measure, and we did not have full access to the drawers in the fridge (you could try this at an appliance store.) We fixed this by installing an 18 inch pull out pantry. In your layout that would work out to wall/18 inch pull out pantry/fd fridg/18 inch base and upper. Holligator's use of a shallow cabinet would increase the countertop by another foot.

I started trying to input your plan into sketchup to get a 3d representation of things and ran into a problem. The wall next to the garage door is only 1'10" deep. I'm fairly certain that wall would be load bearing, so moving that door would be way beyond our budget. How would you transition between the narrower area in that corner and a standard counter depth?

Oops, I missed hestia_flames' suggestion. Are you referring to my original plan in image 4? I don't think there's any downside to moving the refrigerator over a bit except for breaking up the counter space. Installing a tall pull out pantry in the gap would solve that problem as long as it was mounted far enough forward to account for the deeper refrigerator. I'd still have the problem of dishwasher location in that design though.

$2,160 was for the window only. It did not include anything else.

Refrigerator location: Ask your wife to remember what it was like when she was a pre-teen & teen...raiding the refrigerator for a snack while watching TV! As your children grow older, you'll find that a refrigerator next to the FR is more useful than next to the DR...especially if they have to cut across the kitchen to get to it! We tried very hard to get our refrigerator on the FR end, but in the end it didn't work...load bearing walls and other expenses/compromises we felt were not worth it (although, now that my children are in the pre-teen & teen years, I'm wondering if maybe we should have grit our teeth & done it anyway!) Additionally, the refrigerator is closer to the island. If you have island seating, I suspect most eating will take place at the island, not in the DR (dinner in DR, all other meals & snacks at island). [Plus, your wife wants an island...not easy in a kitchen this small...compromises will need to be made to make an island possible...like more wall space for the sink & DW, range, prep workspace, and cooking workspace & landing zone...moving the refrigerator out of the "main" cabinet runs gives you that extra wall space needed.]

Has your wife given up on the island?

As to the 1'10" issue, I think Holligator had a shallower set of cabinets along that wall, not the standard 24". They will cost more. Anything that deviates from the standard 24" deep...shallower or deeper...usually has a markup. The deepest you could do by the door is a 17.5" counter (assuming 2-1/2" trim around the garage door)...which means a 16" or 16-1/2" base cabinet (assuming a 1-1/2" or 1" countertop overhang).

You might also consider...

(1) A stand-alone cabinet of some sort b/w the garage door & the sink
. . .or. . .
(2) Beginning at the bay window, standard 24" deep cabinets. B/w the garage door & cabinets, install hooks or cubbyholes for backpacks, etc. or a bench for seating.

If your refrigerator stays in the corner, you will need at least a 6" filler b/w the wall & refrigerator to allow it to open fully. If you put in a pullout instead of just filler, you will still need a 1-1/2" or 2" filler b/w the wall and the pullout to clear the door trim around the DR door when pulling out the pullout. But, that's 4" more usable space! As to making the pullout cabinet deeper, it shouldn't be any deeper than the carcass/body of the refrigerator. To open fully, the refrigerator doors need to clear any cabinets, walls, finished end panels, etc. that are next to the refrigerator.

Phil_va,

2 suggestions (completely non-kitchen related) that could save you many headaches.

1) Please make sure to ask the bank (current property owners), to warrant and pay for your OWNER'S Title insurance. They may not directly offer, but they will. You need the protection, esp. After getting a special warranty deed.

2) FHA 203K is a wonderful program for the right property and the right buyers. Spend your draw on quality foundation and structural items. The FHA case inspector doesn't care if you have soapstone, stainless appliances, etc. The best advice is to complete things asap. You can upgrade later if the bones and cabinetry are solid and functional. Please avoid putting anything on a credit card. Even if it means living w/ the ugliest formica counters from habitat re:store for a year (or three).

More recently, FHA guidelines (and credit card companies) are changing DAILY. I've never seen a more fickle mortgage/credit market. With 203K, everything is "subject to", until you finish and finalize. I don't want to see you in a pinch or bind, esp. one thats no fault of your own.

Best to you and your wife. Foreclosures if addressed properly have many benefits. You are so wise to do research.

Enjoy your adventure!

-September

BTW- If you're wondering, I'm a Realtor (15 yrs and 3rd Gen).I've also renovated homes since I was 17.

Just another version - personal and money choices.

Altho I like the look of moving the sink to the window, I don't like how far apart sink/ref/range becomes. So this trades the peninsula to be able to move the sink closer - but the trade off is not a lot of working room beside the sink. I am such a splasher, that I rarely work beside the sink anyway, so it wouldn't bother me.

Using the outer bend instead of an inner one as the op shows keeps the sink and dw more accessible = stops the contest between the sink doors, dw door and drawers or doors. The sink base should be a sink front with a site build frame = cheapest way to have the best spacing.

The money choices are about not moving the plumbing. No special cabinets, regular depth ref. You can do the entire run around the bay window later if you run out of budget.
{{gwi:2107091}}

Refrigerator along the FR wall:
It's not being close to the FR that bothers her, but rather the side view of the refrigerator (a large flat stainless steel rectangle with no decoration) that will be visible to the family room. I'll have to do some research on available end panels. I haven't noticed any in my Lowes showroom floor browsing.

Island:
I don't think she's given up on the island per se, but she's coming around to the idea that we just might not be able to make it work in this kitchen. At least not with our budget.

Cabinets next to the garage door:
I see what you mean about a more shallow set of cabinets there. The more I consider all of the work required to move those windows, the more I think that changes along that wall might be a second phase of kitchen updates. Especially once I factor in september_home's comments.

Refrigerator in the corner:
I understand what you mean about the clearance around the refrigerator doors. The required clearance listed in the specs was only 3.5" for the model we were looking at though. I had built in the extra space in the sketchup drawing, but failed to account for the depth of the baseboard and door trim. The pantry does seem like a better use of the space though, so I'll drop it in there and see how it looks.

Budget and 203k:
I certainly have no interest in putting anything on credit (except for the part built into the mortgage). That's why I'm shooting for $20k and hoping the overages won't eat more than the $15k savings. I'm also glad that I'm not the only one who thinks the 203k requirements are... fluid.

I have a lender telling me that there shouldn't be any problem with me doing most of the work myself. I have a realtor telling me that I absolutely must have a contractor do all of the work. And I have my research on the internet telling me everything in between.

Bmorepanic's plan:
Wife is telling me I should have been ready ten minutes ago, so I'll have to add my comments on yours when I get home this afternoon.

Thank you all for the comments and ideas. I'm definitely learning a lot through this process. :)

Bmorepanic's plan:
Turning the southern row of cabinets / counters into a second phase is a great idea. Given the nature of the 203k and how the inspections work, that will work out much better.

I'm unclear on what "sink front with a site build frame" means exactly though. I hope you'll bear with me, I'm still coming up to speed on all my terms. I do like the idea of a large work area / eating area, but part of me would like to fit more storage under there somehow.

Refrigerator on the end:
Thank you for the images of your "built in". I showed her the pictures and they definitely helped us both get a better idea of what you're suggesting. I'm in the process of modeling it in sketchup and ran into another difficulty.

{{gwi:2107093}}

Ignore the sink placement for now, I played around with it in a few locations along the counter. Given the image above, am I understanding your diagram correctly now? If so, how do the wall cabinets mount that you have placed above the dishwasher? Can you mount one set of cabinets to the side panel of another set of cabinets? Would installing one of those tall pantries help solve that problem?

Also, is it customary to leave the entire wall above the sink clear of cabinets? I feel storage space is going to be at a premium in this kitchen, so I'm curious if I could fit another (higher level) cabinet above the sink.

I did make at least one intentional deviation from your plan. Your plan called for a cabinet depth refrigerator, but I understand those are significantly more expensive, so I tried out a 33" deep refrigerator (I assumed a 30" deep body and 3" doors). I haven't started drawing the island area yet though, so I don't know if that blows up the entire plan.

I really like how you built your message center. That looks like a great setup. I think that would have to be a "after the 203k inspector is gone" addition if we attempt one. :)

Ok, a few more attempts at the sink wall and adding an island. I'm not done with it yet, but it's the only one so far that will seat five people. Each edge where someone will be sitting is at least 32" from the wall behind it and 2' wide. I tried moving it out a little to get 36" clearance for each seat, but then it felt too close to the refrigerator door.

I moved the dishwasher to the other end of that run of cabinets to avoid having a heat-generator next to the refrigerator. I'm also still worrying about whether my addition of cabinets above the sink is a good idea or not.

The tall cabinet is one of the 96" pull-out pantries. I'm not sure how feasible it would be to mount it like that but I figured it had a better chance of working than individual base and wall cabinets.

{{gwi:2107094}}

You get an actual face frame and cabinet doors from the cabinet company (or doors and hinges) - but you don't pay them to make a specialized cabinet for the sink base with an angle on one side. Your gc makes the back of the cabinet in place and attaches the front made by the cabinet company to it.

You can also enclose a ref in drywall - some people turn the studs on edge so its fairly thin for a wall. I have heard of people laminating drywall to construction grade plywood too.

End panels can be costly. It makes a great specific question to ask when you're shopping for cabinets! Ask them how much a 30" deep end panel is.

The comment about moving the ref out from the corner a bit was to be able to open the ref doors fully. For most refs, you're supposed to have an air circulation clearance - which is what I believe you are talking about. What the poster was talking about was being able to use all of the drawers AND to be able to take all the drawers out to be cleaned. Most refs require that you open the door more than 90 degrees to get the drawers out. The other wacked thing in a corner is figuring out where the ref door hits those doors on the north wall or the door moldings or the wall itself with its handles. It my step-mothers kitchen, she replaced a sxs with a french door and its handles hit light switches on the perpendicular wall.

Picking a whirlpool ref more or less at random, its depth is 33 1/4" including the handles and its depth without the doors is almost 30 7/8". It looks like the worst one they make is around 31 7/8". Again, kinda at random, a counter depth one is 29 7/8" deep including the handles.

Ref makers publish dimension guides for their refs and it should tell you what to plan on. An sxs says "Location must permit doors to open to a minimum of 150°. Allow 13-1/4" (34 cm) minimum space between the side
wall and the freezer side of the refrigerator." If you can't find it for a given refrigerator, call customer service and ask for that dimension.

The only problem with the ref where you show it is that the working areas of the kitchen becomes completely cut off from the family room.

It sounds like no matter what I do, I need to take a measuring tape out to the store with me and measure everything as I open and close the door. The one we were looking at had a hinge mechanism so that as it opened, part of the door swung in and it didn't require the full door depth beyond the corner of the refrigerator. I didn't measure it in the store, but looked up the install instructions online and found the 3.5" clearance listed. It didn't sound unreasonable given what I saw when opening the door, but you may be right about it being the ventilation clearance instead.

As for the current design cutting off the kitchen from the rest of the house, I can see what you mean to an extent. I think at this point, my best bet is to come up with a handful of designs that all work to some extent. Then make up a list of positives and negatives of each and present them to my wife all together and let her pick.

My next step is to draw up your floor plan in sketchup and add that to my stack of options to run past her. Thanks again to everyone who's given me suggestions so far. :)

Oh, one other question... The kitchen has nine foot ceilings and the tallest cabinets only go to eight feet. I know some people use soffets to fill out that last foot, but that's more money of course. I don't really know how common or expected they are. Do I need to build some or can I get away with just leaving that last foot empty?

A lot of people do that. A nine foot ceiling is 108". Standard height counters are 36" tall, standard height gap between counter and wall cabinets is 18". You have up to 54" to fill. A "normal" wall cabinet is 30" tall and you will have 2 feet empty above it.

A lot of people put trim on top - generally some form of crown. FHA isn't going to fault you for skipping the trim. Or people get 36" tall wall cabinets. Or even 39" tall wall cabinets. Or stack cabinets - very expensive.

It's another great question when you're shopping for cabinets as trim is also sometimes very expensive.

Sometimes you can get a quart of the same stain or paint that your cabinets use and be able to buy trim locally, and finish it to match. Be aware that for wood stained cabinets, you have to buy the same type of wood in the trim.

The only thing about trim is that its hard to add matching trim to cabinets later. First because the finish starts to age immediately. The more its exposed to light, the faster it will happen. Second - they have lot variances in their finishes. Third - a lot of times they charge a "special price" to get just a piece of trim after your kitchen has been finished for a while. If you can afford to buy the trim simultaneously, it's better.

Some people have used black trim for wood cabinets. It looks better than it sounds and gracefully avoids the problems above - it can be added later, can be purchased locally.

Cool, thanks for the info. I'll have to google for some images of wood stained cabinets with black trim on top to see what that looks like.

In the meantime, does this look like an accurate representation of your plan? There's a 1" gap between that pullout pantry on the left and the wall that you can't really see. There's also a 6" gap behind all of the cabinets. Did I represent those right or are those supposed to be 30" deep cabinets? If I modeled it correctly, what sort of framing exists on the sides and behind the cabinets to make them look right and hang solidly?

My work area / eating area ended up looking slightly different than yours, but that's the only way I could fit the sink and dishwasher side by side. It also ended up with a one foot overhang for the eating area.

{{gwi:2107095}}

Lengthen the cabinet right beside the ref so it goes over almost to the left rear corner of the sink. Like a 21" or 24" instead of an 18"

Looking at it in block mode, I don't know where the other wall is, but I wonder if a 12" or 15" cabinet can fit beside the dw? Would become trash pullout, maybe? Changes the shape just a little.

It sounds like you need to get a functioning kitchen quickly and cheaply.

The Ikea cabinets are a really good deal. Since they are frameless, you can swap the drawer fronts and doors later. The cheapest ones are really cheap (and not very attractive in my view). But they are so cheap you wouldn't need to feel bad about discarding them and replacing them later. Likewise you can swap in features like drawers and pullouts later.

I see good appliance deals on craigslist all the time. You can buy two or three of anything for the price of even scratch and dent.

If you need to hit a tight budget, and it sounds like you do, try hard to spend most of the money on things you will keep for a long time and save money on things which are replacable later.

FYI...in your Sun, Apr 12, 09 at 18:18 layout, a big issues is the lack of workspace around your sink. You should have at least 24" on each side for adequate workspace...both for prepping and cleaning up. 18" on one side is barely doable if there's a wall on that side to keep things from falling off the end. Oh, and I like your island better than the one I proposed!

In your Sun, Apr 12, 09 at 21:36 layout, you might consider putting open shelves in the wasted triangular area b/w the left cabinet & sink base. It may cost more, but it won't hurt to price it out! (It will mean a finished end on both cabinets and installing shelving.)

Hi Phil,
Everyone here has great advice. I did want to give you
a catalog that might help when you are looking
for those extras. Outwater plastics. It has helped my
husband and I from lighting, to trim kits, to even
figuring out prices for items we are ordering from
other places. http://www.outwatercatalogs.com/

You may have already come across National Kitch Bath Assoc
this site helped us with measurements when we were doing
our own renovation. It can give you ideas of the actual
space around an island. Or space needed around any standard
peice of kitchen equip. It helped us with various ideas.
http://www.nkba.org/

Definitely take acurate measurements of appliances, cabs
and anything you will have in your space.

And lastly. You can do this. You do not need to hire a
General Contractor. You can be your own and do this yourself.
The money you will save by DIY will be worth
it. It will feel scary, daunting, worrisome and
overwhelming at times but you can do this.
Take deep breaths, be flexible, use your creative side and
never loose that practical side of yourself. Tell your
wife she needs to be supportive, flexible and a positive
cheerleader.

Best of luck
~Boxerpups

PS. I miss VA. We used to live in Great Falls. I bet the
cherry blossoms are out. :(

I wanted to do what buehl did in my kitchen, take out the existing tall windows and replace them with shorter ones so we could put in cabinets and a sink area. Alas, it was not in the budget. We didn't have a bay window, just a straight wall of windows in our breakfast nook. We put in an island to replace the table, adding cabinet storage and counter space. Our island seats 3 but we also have a peninsula that seats 2 so it works for our family of 5. My kitchen is shaped very similarly to the OP's. Here's a pic of our island in what used to be our breakfast nook:
before:

HTH! Good luck with your kitchen!
Robin

Buehl:
My work computer only has qcad, so I'm back in 2d for today. Would you expect the sink wall to look something more like the elevation below? If so, how does the top right wall cabinet mount? Something like the stud / drywall enclosure that bmorepanic referred to earlier? Or should I just leave that wall cabinet off entirely?

Design B ver. 02 Sink Wall Elevation
{{gwi:2107097}}

Also, I've come to the conclusion that I need to start labeling my plans with letters and version numbers so I can keep them all straight in my head.

Boxerpups:
Thanks for the links. I'd found the nkba site, there's definitely a lot of info to go through there. I hadn't seen the other one, so I'll go take a look. As for doing it myself, I'd love to learn and I'm certainly willing to put forth the effort. However, the decision is up to some HUD employee who gets my paperwork and decides whether to approve it or not.

The cherry blossoms are indeed out. I think the cherry blossom festival up in DC just ended this weekend as well. We didn't get to go up there this year though.

Rmlanza:
Your kitchen does indeed look similar in shape to mine and I like what you've done with it. It's good to see what's possible even in limited space. I also like the butcher block and hopefully my wife will as well.

I wish I could edit my post. I somehow missed bmorepanic's update and sreeb's comments.

Bmorepanic:
I don't have sketchup at work, so I'll have to play with those suggestions tonight. Sketchup likes to crash when you run it in wine instead of native windows.

Sreeb:
I've browsed through the ikea site, but it's a decent drive to get up to the nearest one, so I haven't browsed the store yet. I'm definitely keeping their cabinets in the back of my mind though if we run into / over our budget limits.

It's been a while since I checked craigslist, but with two suggestions for it, maybe I should check it out again. With respect to spending the money on the important things and fix the rest later, what areas of the kitchen would you prioritize for "quality" money?

Hi,
I can help you out with your design if you would like. I can give you a free 3D rendering. Please let me know if you are interested.

Here is a link that might be useful: Green Cabinets Direct

A friend just pointed out that in Design B ver 01, I made the wall cabinets along the sink wall 24" deep instead of 12" deep. Just imagine that they're 12" for now...

Phil,

Love what you're doing and how fast! Your DW is a very lucky woman.

In terms of priority for quality money, I think you are right on track on focusing on a good layout and staging concept. You are going to spend good $$$ on plumbing and electrical. Appliances, counter tops, cabinet doors, drawers, etc can all be changed out later. Given HUD & time constraints you will be challenged to meet your budget.

Craigslist is very active in my area and I have been lucky to find good craftsmen willing to work alongside me for a fair hourly rate. The best ones are moonlighting or between steady work. One problem is sometimes they get busy at their day job and I have to wait, finish by myself or find someone else. It's best to lay things out in small chunks that can be done in a few days. Also you have to pull your own permits & deal with the city inspectors.

In your planning, don't forget to draw electical & plumbing layouts once you firm up the layout.

Thank you. My hurry to get a layout we're happy with is related to my looming need for contractor estimates on the parts I can't do and cost estimates from Lowes / HD / whoever on the parts that I end up doing myself.

It doesn't help that the bank (the current owner bank) has taken up over two weeks now signing their end of the contract paperwork and then complaining that we're asking for too much time between now and closing. They'll have used up all the lead time we wanted before we even get the contract back.

I have no experience drawing electrical or plumbing layouts, so I have several questions on that one. How detailed do those layouts need to be? Are they for my own purposes or for permit purposes? At what stage in the process do I need to have them complete? How much of the existing plumbing and wiring will I be able to discover by looking at the basement ceiling? Will I need to do some exploratory surgery in the walls in order to find the existing wiring?

Sorry for the shotgun of questions. I knew I needed to sort out plumbing and wiring at some point, but the topic hadn't quite made it to the forefront yet, so I haven't done my research on it.

Attaching upper cabinet: You may have to build a shallow wall b/w the refrigerator & wall cabinet. I think someone already mentioned this, but if you turn the studs the wall will be shallower than a standard 4-1/2" wall. I think you save 2". If the cabinets went to the ceiling, you might not have to have drywall...just attach to studs, but think a wall w/drywall is much less expensive than the upcharge for 42" upper cabinets or stacked cabinets to the ceiling.

Regarding what can easily be changed later:

• Layout cannot...so be sure you plan your layout now. You may be able to do things in stages, but look at how much duplicate work you'll have to pay for if you do. For example, install a sink in one place and later move it across the room. You'll be paying for plumbing twice since that's usually something that cannot be put in place for later. In the case of a sink, you also need to consider that you have to have a special cabinet for sinks and if you later change it to something else it will either be pretty useless or you'll have to go through major re-work to modify it or change it out. You could, I suppose, put in those sink cabinet pullouts, it will make it somewhat more useful.

Cabinets cannot...Cabinets, even stock, are usually one of the most expensive items in a remodel, second only to labor (assuming appliances are not professional). So, it doesn't make sense to buy brand new cabinets now and then plan to replace them in a couple of years as a Stage 2. Better to get your cabinets now with any drawers you may want (see next bullet).

Of course, if you go with really cheap cabinets now, then maybe this won't be an issue as you'll end up replacing them in a few years anyway...then you may be able to afford what you really want.
Drawers cannot be easily added later; Rollout Tray Shelves (ROTS) can...So, if you want the single motion of drawers [pull drawer to open/push drawer to close], then I advise you to get them now. If you don't mind the two or three motions of ROTS [open door (or 2 doors), pull out ROTS/push ROTS in, close door(s)], then you could wait on those. However, do not get the standard cabinets that have a fixed half- or full-depth shelf. There won't be any shelf peg holes to later use for ROTS. The ROTS in our one cabinet w/them uses the peg holes used for stationary but adjustable shelves.
Doors & Drawer fronts...Yes, you can change them out later, but since the most expensive part of a cabinet is usually it's doors or drawer fronts, think carefully about this...you will be paying for doors & drawer fronts twice.
Skip glass door cabinets for now...If you want glass that can easily be added later. (Although, the interior of your cabinets will not be finished to match the exterior, which may be an issue. But, a finished interior is an upcharge.) Sometimes you can even modify an existing door to add glass...it depends on the door material, door style, and your DIY skills! ...

Phil,

Of the designs suggested by others above, I am leaning towards the ones with the peninsula over then ones with the fridge at the end wall and with an island. One thing I noted is that there doesn't seem to be any storage for dishes near the dishwasher is located in the peninsula.

But I'd also like to echo what others above have said that labor can be far more than you'd expect or realize. In my kitchen remodel after receiving a detailed bid of $90K (not including appliances) from a local contractor after I had finalized the design. I decided to DIY the whole project, and "finished" the whole project for about $27K (including appliances) and I think I spent a little more for materials than the contractors bid would have. So the labor part of a kitchen remodeling project can be two times the amount of the materials involved.

I used Scherr's custom cabinets (who I found out about from reading the GardenWeb) for my remodel, and really liked that since they are truly custom, and since their pricing model is rational and understandable, getting taller or deeper cabinets from them is really not drastically more than getting "standard" sized cabinets.

Another option that many here have gone for is to get Ikea cabinets, and then order custom made doors and drawer fronts from Scherr's in a style they like.

Good Luck

-Bob

I had typed a reply to all the comments thus far, but lost it to the maintenance gremlin last night. All that survived were my fixes and updates to Design B:

Design B Ver 03
{{gwi:2107098}}

Small tech notes on b.3

Anything in that corner needs to be padded a bit with a filler so that opening it misses the door frame on the perpendicular wall. In this particular case, because the door leads to the dining room, it's likely you want that door open when you want to use the dw - but of course if its open, you won't be able to open the dw.

You need to have somewhere between 36" and 44" from the edge of the island counter to the bay windows to allow someone to actually occupy all three seating spots. The absolute minimum you can allow if you think that will not happen often enough to care is 32". I don't know what you've allowed in the above, but it looks dicey.

Everyone will come into the house from the garage and immediately put down whatever they are carrying on the island because it's the first thing they come to. Expect it to be full of purses, briefcases, computers, papers, mail, groceries, laundry basket from time to time, etc. This might not bother you.

Through traffic is kinda channeled to walk through the business end of the kitchen - this might not bother you.

Attaching upper cabinet:
I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm having a hard time picturing it. Would that shallow wall go all the way to the ceiling or would it be a complete frame that would exist on both sides of the refrigerator? I'll have to sketch one up later to see if I understand how it would fit together and be stable.

Changes later:
* Layout: At least it sounds like I'm spending my time well on that point. With respect to moving the plumbing, if I go with design B, I don't have to move the plumbing at all. The sink is basically staying where the existing plumbing is now, give or take a few inches. If we wait a bit to put the island in (or the cabinets/counter along that wall instead), we don't have to do any plumbing work until the second stage. Well, I take that back, we would have to move the line for the ice maker.

* Cabinets: I'm trying to plan out a staging process that will require minimal changes to cabinets between stages. If I can swing it, I'd like to buy all of the cabinets I'd need for the full layout up front and only install the necessities prior to the 203k inspection.

* Countertops: I've seriously considered buying as cheap a counter as I can to pass inspection and then once I get to the end of the second stage, get the countertop we really want. I guess I need to go price cheap throwaway counters. They don't damage the cabinets or anything when they're removed will they? As for the bathrooms... oddly enough, they left the bathroom counters and cabinets alone. The took faucets and showerheads, but left the sinks and counters alone.

* Backsplashes: Definitely stage two if we split it up.

* Appliances: I don't see any reason not to put the good stuff into stage one unless we run out of money. They can all be fairly easily removed and placed elsewhere without any damage, right? As long as the new location is the right size of course.

* Flooring: I think we lucked out on the flooring. It looks good all throughout the kitchen. The only trouble area is where they scratched it pretty good in the family room. The only flooring we'd have to consider in the kitchen is if we ever decided to remove that built in pantry and figure out what to do under there.

Bob_cville:
My personal preference so far is a peninsula plan as well, but my wife's favorite is B so far. Given that she's going to be the person using it 90% of the time, I figure I ought to spend most of my time on her favorite. :)

Your numbers on the bids you had that included labor scare me. A lot. I was already excited about getting to do some (most?) of the work myself, but seeing those numbers make me even more hopeful that they'll let me do it.

Thanks for the pointers to the cabinets. You guys sure do give me a lot of homework / research to do, but I do appreciate it.

B03 DW:
I think (hope?) I'll be ok on the DW padding. The gap I left on that end is 27" and my understanding was that DWs should fit in only 24"...

Another day, another design. This one was suggested by a friend and doesn't require any extra building, but does require demolition. Who doesn't love doing demolition?

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Positives:
- Demo!
- Comfortable seating for five.
- My wife says she'll be ok with a butcher block "island".
- The kitchen still feels open to the family room.
- Sink and dishwasher stay where they are, which saves us money.
- It solves the problem of the refrigerator being next to a wall.
- It solves the problem of both the range and sink having a landing area.
- The fridge landing area is behind it, but somehow that feels appropriate for a french door fridge.
- The dishwasher door interferes with two cabinets, but neither of them would contain dishes.

Negatives:
- Demo!
- The wiring for the refrigerator and oven has to be moved. The line for the ice maker does as well.
- It might be shorter on storage space given the loss of the pantry. A possibly solution is a 12-16" deep pantry over near the garage door.

Wrap-up:
I think that covers the bulk of it. Oh, I know I failed to add the wall cabinets to the design. They'd be all along the left wall and then above and to the left of the sink on the right side. Now, what am I missing? What aspect of this design would be shooting myself in the foot, and how do I avoid it?

C.1
See "barrier island" because its in the way between range and sink.

Your room is 11' 3" wide (or 132"). Each side of cabinets is 24" plus about 1.5" for countertop overhang. This will vary a tiny bit with each cabinet line. But using 25.5 or 26" is good for figuring out aisles. So 132 - 51" leaves 81" for the island and two aisles. Subtracting the island(24")leaves 57" for two aisles.

Finally there! Each aisle is 28.5" wide and will cause issues about getting into the oven, being able to stand in front of an open cabinet door, etc...

You're right. I must have fallen asleep while drawing that plan up. Maybe I typoed a dimension, but it sure looks like more space on that drawing that I really have. Attempting to fix it...

Wow, I'm not sure how I did it, but I miraculously added two feet to the width of my kitchen in that drawing. No wonder it all suddenly fit so well. Below is how it really looks, even after stealing a foot back from the 12" cabinet. I guess I'd need to steal another foot back from the 36" cabinet if I wanted to make it work? *sigh*

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I've been following you all. I liked Buehl's representation.

I'm afraid of opening the refrigerator in the last one and not being able to reach in due to the cabinet & counter directly across from fridge. Especially if you was a FD, with the freezer door bottom pull out.

Can you flip the L cabinets the other way toward that short wall? It seemd with your doorways you are kind of stuck with a galley kitchen. Thant doean't mean it can't be beautiful.

Yeah, that two foot difference makes the design much less feasible. I'm still not sure how I did that.

My before kitchen was shaped much like that, with the oven being where the fridge is. It was such a pain! If the oven was open, you had to stand to the side to pull anything out of it and nobody could walk into the kitchen from that side. Huge pain, especially with a 104 lb dog who always wanted to be with me in the kitchen. It didn't work for my family of 5.

Just my 2 cents

Thank you for the extra data point. I think we're coming to the same conclusion. I showed my wife the design with the 2 feet taken out and she's not as big a fan. I wanted to finish out the designs I had open though so I finished off Design C and Design D, even though we're leaning towards Design B again.

Design C Ver 02
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Design D Ver 03
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I just noticed I left the sink basins off of D though. But taking the extra foot off the peninsula at least makes that passageway usable again. Unfortunately, it also cuts down even more on the storage capacity of the kitchen.

Ok, I think we've explored all of our options and are leaning towards Design B again. Below is a tentative plan for stage one.

Stage two would follow basically immediately after stage one, but after the 203k process is complete. It really only includes framing around the refrigerator and installing cabinets above and to the left of the refrigerator. I just don't want to complicate the streamlined 203k with what they might consider "construction."

Stage three would be either adding the island or changing out the windows and adding the extra wall of cabinets and counter space. I think either option would work with the design below without wasting much. Until we get to stage three, we can either use the dining room or buy another cheap table for the nook area.

If any of my assumptions above are flawed, please let me know now. :)

Items of note:

• The DW should have plenty of clearance for the door frame, but will stick out into the doorway a bit. It's still next to the sink, so moving the plumbing should be easy, but we'll need to move the wiring over.

• The sink stays in place give or take a few inches. I'll have to double check on whether plumbing needs to move. If it does, I'll rearrange the cabinets along that wall until it doesn't. :)

• The wiring and ice-maker line will need to move for the fridge with the future framing around the fridge in mind.

• I'm torn on the cabinets along the bay window wall. I really want the extra storage space, but I'm not sure what the best option there is.

  • A 12-16" deep utility style cabinet.

  • A base cabinet with one or two wall units "stacked" on top to make what looks like a solid wall of cabinets 96" tall to match the height of the other cabinets

  • The standard 36" base cabinet with counter, 18" gap, and 42" wall cabinets. This counter could be the "stuff" surface for people coming from the garage. The door swing might be an issue there.

Design B Ver 04 (Stage 1)
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Mostly about B

1. Really consider moving the dw to the other side of the sink unless you have metal shin guards and really good liability insurance. If you are storing dishes above the dishwasher, it can be much more difficult to unload anyway because the dishwasher door keeps you from being able to reach inside the dish cabinets. It is NOT a good thing to have a dishwasher door extend across the doorway to the dining room.

2. I thought the door on the right-hand bottom corner led to a bathroom? If it doesn't, consider destroying the closet even in plan B - you can use working counters more than a small closet.

3. The units flanking the bay probably should be storage. What would you put on 12" deep counter? Maybe have a toaster? Otherwise, they will likely accumulate more junk. Another thought is to check the bathroom line of whatever cabinets you'll be pricing. Sometimes that will have reasonable reduced depth cabinets sold as linen closets.

3.a If you do the units flanking the bay, you need to include those in your calculation for how far away from the bay to position the island.

3.b Don't forget to ask whoever you're interviewing for GC about doing drywall pantries instead of cabinetry on the bay wall. It can be loads cheaper to do stuff like that out of drywall with shelves - and you can customize the depth for no extra cost, even if you want it to be 16.5" deep.

4. Doing something like 6" pull-outs flanking the range would be maybe the most expensive cabinets per inch possible. I can't remember exactly, but each one costs as much as a 24" regular base cabinet - $400 to $500 or so. You can find 3rd party ones like this and order molding (6" fluted filler or whatever you like) for the front piece to save some money. Do notice though, that just gets it down to around $200-250 each by the time you buy the fillers and pay for labor. But, two hundred dollars here and there ends up being real money. Third party is good to consider for any type of specialty pullout.

5. A lot of people have changed to single bowl sinks. Part of the reason is to be able to lay a pot flat down on the bottom to wash it - "big" single bowls are 27" to 33" long inside. The other reason people change is to be able to use a smaller sink base, but still end up with a wonderful sink size. Many people have "crammed" a nominal 30" sink into a 30" cabinet - I did it with a kindred big single and I didn't even have to modify the cabinet. Even if you keep a 36" sink base, you'll have more space in the cabinet by not running the second set of drain lines. If you keep the plumbing feeds and drain to one side, you could even use a real pullout or trash.

Thank you for the comments. Let's see if I can cover them.

1. It seems that no matter where I put the DW, it's not going to be optimal. If I put it to the left of the sink, the door sticks out into the doorway a bit. I looked up the product manual for a frigidaire we had looked at and its listed dimensions have it sticking out about 5 inches beyond the door frame. If I put it to the right of the sink, it ends up sitting right next to the refrigerator generating heat.

My best guess for locating the dishes in this kitchen (plates and glasses anyway) would be up and to the right of the sink when I get that cabinet installed. I hadn't put much time into storage locations yet though.

2. I rotated the diagram some to display my problem area better: the bay window storage. In the most recent image, the bottom right is an existing pantry and the bottom left is the bathroom. I'm not attached to the pantry at all, I just didn't want to go to the effort / expense of removing it unless it bought me a better layout.

3. I agree, I'm all about more storage there. I modeled all three options at one point. The version I posted was just the most recent one I was looking at. If we do put a counter in there, its primary goal in life would indeed be a stuff / junk collector to keep it off the rest of the counters. I'd never expect any actual functional use as a counter out of it.

I think I looked at all of their different options, but the closest thing I found with less than 24" depth was a utility cabinet that didn't appear to have any shelves. I'll check again though. If I can't find one, is it feasible to "stack" one or two wall cabinets on top of the 12" base unit? The studs would be carrying the actual weight anyway and not the base unit, so the stacking would be purely cosmetic.

3a. I did model the kitchen with the island in another version as well. The distance on that side was less problematic than the distance between the island and the windows by quite a bit. I'm still playing with the numbers on that one, but best guess at this point is moving the island out another 2-4 inches from my original location in order to better accommodate seating around it. I'm going by the house today with some painters tape to outline the options on the floor and see how it all fits together in person.

3b. I hadn't even considered moving the drywall pantry to there. Good idea if I can make it work.

4. Thanks for the info, I hadn't priced the details on any of these cabinets yet, so the exact details of what type of cabinet goes where may still change. I'm hoping to go do that this weekend. Those do indeed sound expensive, so I'll check out the third party ones.

5. I honestly hadn't given a lot of priority to the sink yet either. I'll have to ask the wife if she has a preference. I've always had a double basin sink, so I just drew what I knew without giving it much thought.

I'm back again after a frustrating weekend with the kitchen folks at two different lowes and one home depot. I walked into each of the stores with the stated intention of getting an estimate on two of the designs (B and D).

The designer at the first Lowes more or less blew me off... told me they didn't have time to deal with me that evening and made no offers of a better time to discuss my options.

Home Depot was up next, I showed them both of the designs and asked for a cabinet estimate. I guess I'm not demanding enough because I left without an estimate for either design. Instead, I left with a completely different design that wrapped cabinets along the two half-bath walls and put the DW and sink in an island near the bay windows. It actually kinda worked until I got home and tried to put it into sketchup. That's when I realized she'd somehow moved the bay window over several feet. Without the bay window moving, the design didn't work at all.

Lastly was another Lowes, where the designer took the designs, looked through all of them and made a few constructive comments. I didn't get exactly what I asked for, but overall, she was the most helpful and seemed to actually listen to my comments and questions as opposed to charging forth and doing her own thing.

I did find out that a dishwasher can't be at the end of a cabinet run and still support the counter, so B won't work as I have it drawn. I asked about simply adding a 6" pullout, but apparently Kraftmaid discourages the use of pullouts for end pieces as well. I still want to figure out what to do to make B work so I can take it back for an estimate. I might need to take that one to a custom cabinet maker if I can't figure out a way. Come to think of it, one of the changes we made on the way to design E (below) might work for B as well.

We eventually ended up with an estimate for a design that is somewhere between A and D. I modeled it up when I got home and labeled it Design E. The cabinet section to the left of the DW is a span of 15" drawers. Is there anything blatantly wrong with the design that will cause me problems or any ways to make it better?

Sorry to keep going back and forth. I need lessons in how to get exactly what I ask for. :)

Design E Ver 01
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You can put a dishwasher at the end of a run.

You need a filler and you simply put strips vertically and horizontally on the wall. If you use a 3" wide filler, you put 2x4's, for a 1.5" filler, you use 5/4" boards.

The counter uses the strip as a support. The strip is screwed into studs. The filler is the decoration on the front of the strip. You can, but don't have to, add one across the back. Counters span that distance unsupported over all dishwashers.

The reason why YOU shouldn't do it is that it's partially in a door way and below the line of sight.

Check on the door requirements for the ref before agreeing to this design. If I remember correctly, there wasn't a door opening requirement stated for your ref.

Thanks for the info. I obviously haven't ever installed cabinets or a counter before, so I had no basis for arguing with her. Is there a way to make that work if the dishwasher is at the end of a run with no wall at the end?

After posting, I was attempting something like an 18 inch set of drawers, sink base, dishwasher, then another 18 inch set of drawers. It would make design B work, as well as give support at each end of the run. It means the wall units don't line up with the base units, but they don't completely in design E either.

As for the refrigerator clearances, the new refrigerator front-runner requires a 3-3/4" clearance for the door opening. My read of the dimension guide is that that requirement includes the door handle depth which is going to be past the door frame in my case. So 3-3/4" minus door handle depth of 2" means 1-3/4" for the door body. Granted I'm losing 1" (maybe less) of my 3" filler to the trim around the door, but I think I'd be ok. Even so, I may bump it up to a 6" filler just to make life easier when I need to actually remove the drawers from the unit.