Are you committed to the double ovens? You don't have much prep space between cooktop and sink, or many upper cabinets. I think a range moved to the right a bit, might give you better use of space. The cooktop looks cramped to me.

Is there another window between your display cabinets? What do you plan for the storage below? You show drawers flanked by doors, which look like they are pretty narrow. You may be better off having two stacks of 3 drawers there, even though that wouldn't line up with your doors above.

I like wall ovens a lot, but since you don't have a lot of counter on the perimeter, would you consider a double oven range? That could give you more prep space b/w the sink and the range and would feel more open.

Edit: Seems AnnKH typed faster than me lol.

Ditch the wall ovens and swap the fridge and range so that you have a better focal point. Then choose a great hood as that focal point.

AnnKH and sena01, I would be open to a range possibly. My DH was picturing a Wolf or similar double oven range. I've been debating this, and have posted on the Appliance forum a bit. I've had both in the past, and do prefer the wall oven set up. Some people also posted they'd do wall ovens over the double oven range if they did it again. I agree about the open feeling. However I still then have the issue of where to put the microwave. That is why I was thinking convection micro with a regular wall oven. I do believe I'll do most of my prep at the island, based off my previous home, so that is why I thought I'd be OK losing the counterspace. The view and the kids activity (and the TV haha) will be if I stand prepping at the island, so that is what I'm anticipating. Do you really think I'd miss that counter space?

Pro Memphis, I have debated that point in my head, but I was worried the cooktop would be too close to the seating area. Then when you are finishing up cooking and presenting a large meal, you will be very close to your seated guests, and dirty pans possibly left on the cooktop ( I know, you may say just clean it up, but when you are pulling together a large meal for 15 sometimes time is of the essence!). What are your thoughts on that? And if I did that, do you think I should move the pantry to the wall where the wall ovens are, so it would be wall ovens, fridge, and pantry? Oh, another thing I had thought of in that scenario, is prep. If I will prep mostly at the island, I will probably be standing on the short side since that is closest to the sink and then the cooktop. The whole length would be underutilized more often. Maybe? I was thinking prep, spin around, dump in the pan kind of scene.

Agree with putting the fridge where the wall oven is currently. Then on the other side of the range, (current fridge location) add in another window, flanking it and giving a line of demarcation between the eating area and kitchen. Move the sink to same wall as the fridge. Instead of a hutch there in the dining area, 2 pantries would be more useful. Your island will crowd the dining area. You need to lose the seating and just have it be work space. Orient it the other direction, and your table can ''attach'' to it.

I have a kitchen with open concept too. Very similar size and layout to yours. I do 99% of my prepping on my island looking out a big wall of windows to my view. I get it! No amount of space between my sink and stove, facing a dead corner wall, with my back to the action is going to entice me!

I do see where switching to a double oven range makes sense with the size kitchen you have. (I have the GE cafe, love it) Also, I like the idea of switching the range to the other wall as a nice focal.

If you did, it would be a lot like my layout, which I must say am I'm partial to. Let me tell you...it flows awesome! Better then I ever imagined! My fridge is where your ovens are. My sink where your cooktop is with dw on fridge side. My range about where your sink is, but down further. My island is 4x7 same direction you have it. My favorite thing is how I can unload dishes out of my DW into the big 36" drawers across on the island.

But...I do have a window above my sink. Yours cannot since it is the garage wall. So far that reason, I'm not sure... How do feel about no window above the sink? Is that a deal breaker? I am usually a real stinker when it comes to losing a window above the sink, so I completely understand if you saying, NO WAY! But, let's just play with this idea for a minute. :)

So lose the wall ovens and move fridge to that spot. Now to make husband happy, make that pantry way bigger. I don't think you would ever regret that. I'm not sure yet where you could put the convection micro, but I'm sure we can work on that later.

Next to the bigger pantry, how about those nice tall windows on each side of the range hood. That could be quite pretty... Just sayin'. I'll quit on this subject for now since you might be rolling your eyes saying, forget about it already! LOL!

Different thought now. Is the dining room table 6' long? It seem too small for 3 chairs on the sides? Same with island, at 5'5", it seems three stools is pushing it. Maybe put one on the side and make island 6'. It does seem tight there if both table and bar stools were occupied at the same time. But that probably won't happen too often, huh? I think seating for the kids at the island is something important to you and will be used daily for breakfasts, lunches, homework, projects, etc. Then dinners will be at the table most likely. So I think I'd just do the kind of stools that push all the way under the overhang for more space while at the dining table.

I wouldn't switch the sink and cooktop - that puts your cooking area in a less protected area. I would move the sink to the left about 2' tho. Moving the fridge etc all down to the left. That would mean giving up one of the full height cabs. Possibly the 'center' area with the valance over it? You could have a larger drawer stack to the right of the sink - and more space between sink and cooktop (possible additional (helper) work space). It'd decongest the corner area and give space for someone to load/unload the dw w/o being in prep / cook area.

You could prep on the island counter across from the cooktop, then you'd just have to turn around to put things in a pot or pan or oven.

I don't know where it is the kids would be in your view - is the open space on the lower side of the kitchen space a family room? I can't read the writing on the layout (it's too light), but I do see a large open area there. The 3D views show a wall there - why is that?

I just want to comment on the size of the island and table vs. the number of seats you propose. 24" per seat is the absolute minimum and will actually be tight. I have two backless stools in 60" of space and that's comfortable. My dining table is 9'4" long and at present I have only 3 chairs on each long side (that's very roomy, of course) and I had 4 chairs on each long side previously, which was fine, but that's still 28" per chair. I just read that the rule of thumb is 24"-30" per chair (or the width of the chair plus at least 6").

@rebunky and Sophie, thinking about putting the range on that wall has shaken things up a bit for me. I've been for months thinking the layout would be a certain way, and it's just so good to have fresh eyes on it. I see you both suggest the additional window. I could possibly do that, we have a timeline for windows and siding, but the windows have a 2 week lead time and I could probably swing it. I think the reason I didn't add an additional window originally was to have more upper cabs for storage. I'll have to think on that one.

I did have that type of island/table situation in my old house and it worked very well, I loved it. However I had a dining room. In this home I really need a dining table (will have a leaf extension) as we host out of town family and friends very often. I have had 13 people staying with me for over a week just last summer, and it's a lot of breakfasts, lunches and dinners to cook! So really need some flexible seating.

Also rebunky (you really made me chuckle) you hit the nail on the head re: the island. It's really mainly for the kids, and very unlikely we would be using that seating and the table at once. I was thinking backless stools to tuck under.

As for the sink, it may be a deal-breaker. I really have to think on that. I think I read somewhere majority of your time in the kitchen is spent at the sink (or something like that) as opposed to at the cooktop, etc. I can see that, as I hand wash a lot of items. Also, I can't picture the corner there, would I have a hinged door upper cabinet? would it look like it was just floating there by itself (due to being right next to the window)? I love the idea of the dishwasher there, and being able to spin and use the island drawers for dishes. Do you have a pic of your kitchen to share?

Desertsteph, that was one of my thoughts when placing that cooktop. It is family room area there, the KD's program popped a wall in, but there is no wall. I don't mind losing some of that 'valance' area to pantry.

I'm going to discuss some of these suggestions with DH tonight.

OK now. About that microwave? :)

sjhockeyfan, yes I figured the island might be a little tight on seating. I have room to extend it, however when you enter coming in from the garage, the island will be right in front of you. I thought that might be kind of weird visually. Since it's really my kids sitting there I thought I could get away with it....or as someone suggested put a stool on the side (facing the living area).

The table I think I just drew out of proportion, lol. I don't have it yet, we may have it custom built to fit the space properly. But that info helps, thanks.

Can't the island be longer, going south towards where there isn't actually a wall? It looks like it could be a few feet longer which is not insignificant storage. I don't think it would interfere with traffic from the garage, at least not in a bad way.

Oh. reading comprehension fail. You think it'll look weird coming in from the garage. Well, it's the view coming in from the garage! Doesn't matter! Actually it'll be a place to plop groceries either way. It's not weird!

@Fori LOL I did think that. OK, I wasn't sure about like keeping aisles open, walkways, etc., so not weird?

I've never had a nice view from the garage so I'm probably not one to judge. It looks to me like it'll just direct traffic, but you do want to be sure you have room for walking behind the sectional (even if it's not meant to be a main traffic path).

I totally get the wall oven thing: you have to put a microwave somewhere so might as well have the oven there too. I'd probably swap oven and fridge as well as sink and cooktop. I need more space around the sink than the cooktop (as long as I'm going to actually prep at the island).

I read somewhere majority of your time in the kitchen is spent at the sink (or something like that) as opposed to at the cooktop, etc. I can see that, as I hand wash a lot of items

No, most of your time is spent prepping, not at the sink or the cooktop. Most people spend very little time at the sink. Having to have a sink under the window is IMHO a relic of the past when people didn't have dishwashers.

Prep is 70%, cleanup is 20%, cooking is 10%. Arrange the kitchen to make the most pleasant to use spot be the prep spot. That can be a window looking out, if you don't mind your back to the room, or it can be an island facing into the room. But it needs to be 36", adjacent to water if you can manage it. That's why prep sinks are more popular than ever. It separates the cleanup and prep functions and keeps you from having to twist around to the water when you try to locate your prep area on an island without water.

"Desertsteph, that was one of my thoughts when placing that cooktop. It is family room area there, the KD's program popped a wall in, but there is no wall. I don't mind losing some of that 'valance' area to pantry.

I'm going to discuss some of these suggestions with DH tonight.

OK now. About that microwave?"

good to know about the wall - that isn't! I was a bit confused looking at one and then the other!

You could have an upper cab (with glass doors) on either side of the pantry cabs. Will the pantry be pulls outs? or ROTS? 24" is deep for a 'shelf' pantry. Mine are 18" and it's plenty deep and still easy to lose things in the back. I usually only put like items in front of each other - even if I need to put 2 rows of them side by side. I also have plenty of space on those shelves for small appls and other things (water jugs, 2ltr soda bottles).

I'd think it would help to have additional counter space by the main sink - so some of those guests might help preparing the meals. One could be chopping veggies while you are making burger patties or mixing a meatloaf up. Besides - kids need to learn to help too. My youngest insisted on doing dishes at about 5. It didn't take him long to figure out it was considered 'work'. And he had been thinking his big brothers were having fun playing in water...

I'd keep the 'ovens' together - as long as the mw is easy enough (not too high) to reach. My sister has it that way and I can easily use her mw (I'm only 5'). It's also close to the island to land cookie sheets.

Prep is where you'll spend most of your time. A window there would be nice - but I do find I don't look up when using a knife - it'd be very dangerous for me to do. I also don't have little kids anymore to keep an eye on.

I do most of my dishes by hand myself. I have a dw but have only used it maybe 3x in over a yr. But, I also use paper plates most of the time - even if it's to put it on top of a plate... and I only have 'dishes' for 1 here to do. When the kids were still home I (they) used it daily.

I really thought at first glance your kitchen might work similar to how mine is set up. Unfortunately, after I actually checked the measurements tonight, I think that your shorter L wall is actually too short. I'm sorry...I feel bad for totally messing with your mind!

I'm afraid 11' is not enough. Add this up. Fridge 36", dw 24", sink base 36", and then either a 36 or 33" lazy Susan in the corner. Not looking good. Is my math correct on that?

Is it 11' on that wall? Or is it actually less, measuring to the door's trim? Is the garage door 3'? Any wiggle room with that, like if door moved down a bit?

Important consideration: Are you planning on a french door fridge?

If so, I'd say you need at least a 12" or wider cabinet between it and any adjasent DW. Door will block the dw when open. (Tested mine to be sure!) That is a no-go in my book. Others might not care. Plus I don't think you'd like the sink so close to the corner anyways.

Moving to the long wall? Is it 19 plus? Corner to corner? I am trying to work with your other plan again. Honestly, I'm am having a tough time fitting the island with seating for three, plus your custom dining table which you'd like to extend for up to 6 or 8 guests as needed.

How wide would this custom table be? Any idea on that yet? Even if you did a super narrow table, I am still really, really afraid it is going to be too tight. Let's think some more on that one shall we?

(Side point: I am also thinking how your family room with fireplace and tv will fit in too. Is the fireplace existing already? Do you have the sectional sofa already?)

Re: the island. I must humbly disagree on extending it out into the garage entry runway. Won't that cut too much into the family room area seating? Also, it would really bother me having it not lined up with the end of that cabinet run.

I do admit, I might have "weird" issues with entryways and isles needing to have flow and enough space. I especially feel most comfortable when the front entry area flows (at least in somewhat of a straight shot) towards any back exits.

For instance...from your main entry, or the garage entry, out towards your back sliding glass door. It just "feels" better to me w/o major roadblocks (like the island or the sectional sofa) blocking or squeezing the openness walking through. Less drastic, soft swerves in the road are fine. :-/ (btw that's my weird, not as thrilled, face)

Question: Why did you decide not to extend the dining room into the screened porch area? Is it just plain out of the budget? Is it something you might consider down the road? If so, I would design with that in the back of my mind.

Sorry this is really long...Good grief! I asked way too many questions in one post! Sorry to overwelm, but had time tonight. Any feedback would help. At this point, I welcome anything to distract my brain. :)

Rebunky, I think you did do the math correctly. Measurements on short wall are 10'5" to garage door trim, and long wall is 19'8'.

As for the custom table I was thinking 2 1/2 feet wide. Not a big change, but I think it would help. Currently there is a peninsula there where the island would go, and a 3 ft. wide dining table so I have a pretty good idea on the space/walkway. It's not ideal, but it's not horrible either. No bumping into chairs or anything.

We talked last night re: the range on the long wall idea. I have no idea why this didn't occur to me, but the ceilings are cathedral, and the hood would either have to be huge (which I wouldn't like) or it would be floating mid-wall. So that idea is out. He also thinks I should utilize that area to put additional cabinetry for more storage.

"Question: Why did you decide not to extend the dining room into the screened porch area? Is it just plain out of the budget? Is it something you might consider down the road? If so, I would design with that in the back of my mind."

I have to say, your comment through me for a loop, in a good way. You know when you've been expecting something to be one way, so you don't really question it? The original plan was to extend the dining room into the screened porch area. I haven't thought about that since last summer. We cut it due to budget, we have a ton of other projects we are working on (not just kitchen). Every little thing adds up. Actually at that time we cut the screened porch. Since that time there have been some changes, including a change in contractor. When we got a new estimate on a screened porch, we found we could fit that in our budget. I think because of what the first contractor told us, we had it in our head that making it living space vs. porch only was a large cost difference. I just spoke to my contractor about it, and it's really not a big change on his end structurally. It would be labor and materials for finishing out the interior (drywall, insulation, additional window and door. The hvac is easily extended, it is all currently exposed. We already had electrical budgeted for that space. Oh boy you have me thinking. I am going to re-visit this one last time with DH. Thank you!

Tables need to be at least 36" wide. Table-height seating needs a minimum of 18" clear leg/knee space for each person. So, with two people sitting across from each other, you will need 36" of clear leg/knee space under the table. In reality, that's not really enough -39" is better, 42" is even better. In your case, you're probably going to be stuck with only a 36" deep table. Hopefully, no one in your family is tall or has long legs. If so, they are going to feel very cramped! We're a family of relatively tall people, ranging from 5'10" (me-the shortie!) to 6'7" (my DS grew another inch!) We used to have an eat-in kitchen + DR. Our kitchen could only hold a 36" wide table and we outgrew it by the time the kids were pre-teens. (My DH and I sat staggered so we each had enough leg room under the table.) When we remodeled, we eliminated the kitchen table, took down the DR wall, and now use the DR for all our meals. The DR table is 45" wide and it's perfect for us. Not too deep that you feel like you're talking across a gulf, not too shallow that we're knocking legs/knees.

[Warning - blunt observation follows!]

Based on all that you want out of the kitchen, I wonder if you're downsizing in the wrong place....I agree with Rebunky - expand the kitchen into the porch! Don't be penny wise and pound foolish! If you can expand into the porch, you can have a decent sized table, a deep enough island so you can have a sink in it to provide a very pleasant and functional Prep Zone on the island...w/o your kids' homework getting wet!

[Note: Your peninsula is probably too shallow, I suspect that's why your kids are having issues! You need a minimum of 18" b/w the back of the faucet and the seating overhang to minimize splashing - 24" would be perfect! Most people don't have the minimum 15" overhang, let alone extra space behind the faucet. Is the sink in your peninsula a prep sink or a cleanup sink? If cleanup, that's another reason - those sinks are bigger and you do a lot more "splashing" type of work when cleaning up.]

I think Buehl is right! Can you incorporate the screened porch into your living space? Maybe something like this?

Even though you don't want a prep sink on the island...this is a bigger island and the sink would be really functional. And not too close to stools :)

Also...an idea for over the sink (no window) you could use a mirror :)

Well! Lavender_Lass just drew up my Layout #1! Great minds! :-) I hadn't quite finished (doing it during work breaks).

About the only difference is that I had made the sink wall 3" deeper to (1) have more room behind the sink and (2) to allow deeper cabinets for dish storage.

Oh ,and I put in a reach-in pantry b/c (1) they're much less expensive than pantry cabinets, (2) storage is more efficient and items are more accessible, (3) they're more flexible, and (4) you can potentially store more w/o losing items in the depths b/c you can utilize the entire height - floor to ceiling and have shallower shelves (or various depth shelves).

I can't tell if she put in a base corner susan. But, base corner susans are great for small appliance and/or pot & pan storage b/c everything is always in front and easy to lift out - no matter how heavy/bulky.

I was also trying to work in double ovens for you, but hadn't quite gotten them to fit yet (that was going to be #2).

Buehl- Post your plan! I am not as detailed and you definitely have more ideas about storage, cabinet sizes, etc. :)

I don't have any specific good ideas for you. I love Lavender's plan. Hope Buehl will post one as well because her's are always awesome.

I just want to say that I think I would live with a kitchen I don't like for a few years if need be in order to afford adding to your square footage by incorporating that screen porch first. I think any improvements made now without doing that first is really money down the drain. It makes no sense to me to spend money on a kitchen that isn't as functional as possible. I'm all for tiny houses and small footprints if the layout works but in your case, it really doesn't. If you don't incorporate the screen porch, I think you should expand the kitchen into the space you are currently allocating for the dining table and use the family room for dining. You probably wouldn't have room for the sectional but you might still have room for a couple of easy chairs.

It's good to see the whole kitchen/dining/living floor plan. That is tight!

As a point of reference, our downsize's living space isn't much smaller than yours at 16x29 and we don't have to walk across it to get outside. Our house is less than 1200 sq ft (3 bed, 2 bath) and I think yours is bigger. Anyway, in 16x29 I chose to limit my kitchen to a 7.5 ft wide galley so I could have room for a comfortable 6 person dining area and a 12x16 ft family room.

All this to say, from my perspective on trying to make the most of a small space I don't think you're going to get what you want unless you expand.

Great news that GC said he can do within budget! That's a no brainier then. DO IT!!!

Oh please agree, Allisons wonderful, sweet, adoring, husband, pretty please, with sugar on top :-)

It really is going to solve the many issues that I was seeing and make this whole open room work pefect. Huge impact without huge cost. That's a win-win!

I forgot that earlier you asked about seeing pictures of my kichen, and how the dw can empty into the big dish drawer. We are far far from done, but this will give you the idea. If you expand the dining, I think you could definately plan for something like this! I love it.

Also you mentioned not liking the range hood on a cathedral ceiling. I felt the same way. I did not like the look of the big silver hood vent going up a mile either.

Here is how we did ours. It is a work in progress. I'm still not sure if I want to do something to cover the stainless hood part but anyways...Here is what we did. We vented out the back wall. We ordered a cabinet without the doors and my husband added the beadboard to the front. Just thought it would show you an option for range with cathedral ceilings.

It's on my work computer - I will have to download it later. I'm off to visit my mother as it's her 80th birthday Monday!

Main Line- I believe the OP said she went to a KD. If she were trying to do it herself, she wouldn't be here...

Many forum members ask for help, take the ideas they get here to a 'pro' and end up with a far better kitchen :)

Main Line - Hmmm, I sewed my own wedding dress and it was beautiful. DIY'd my kitchen too. Very happy with the results of both.

bbtrix- I didn't see your dress or your kitchen so I couldn't say what I would have thought about both had I seen them. But this Kitchen designer certainly shouldn't be designing kitchens or sewing her own dress most likely. This kitchen needs a lot of work that is too complicated to fix in this forum. For starters, a good designer would mention that:

There are too many tall cabinets in this design and not enough countertop.

The tall double oven cabinet on the end of the run closes in the kitchen and makes the room seem cramped.

Wall cabinet doors should be the same width on either side of a sink and a cooktop to give a kitchen some symmetry.

Two appliances such as a refrigerator and a dishwasher next to each without a cabinet between them looks bad and the appliances can interfere with each other.

A tall panel needs to support the deep wall cabinet over the refrigerator so that it doesn't sag and fall off the wall.

The easy reach base cabinet looks like a 33 inch that is very hard to get into and use.

True double sinks are not functional as each sink is too small to fit pots and pans. A bowl and a half would be much better, and for this kitchen a large single sink would solve the eazy reach problem.

Trying to maximize storage space has made this kitchen a poor design both looks wise and function wise. And overly expensive. For example besides the overuse of tall cabinets the crown molding is too small. Because no ceiling is ever perfectly level and there is no play in the molding then however out of level this room is will be instantly obvious. A two piece crown and shorter cabinets is what a better professional would recommend.

The island is a little too large for the space, too close to the other cabinets, and is too simple looks wise. When people sit at the island they will interfere with people at the refrigerator.

Others have commented that tables and chairs need certain amounts of space which is of course very true. Since these simple concepts aren't being obeyed the people creating this design are in over there heads and there will usually be many other problems that aren't even on the design that we aren't seeing that will be problems. For example how is the hood venting outside? Is the trim on the window and doors being included in the design or when the room was measured did the measurer just measure the openings. The kitchen designer doesn't even have the walls in the locations they will be in in the drawings which makes the design of little value.

Lastly this kitchen is very expensive. For example cooktops and double ovens add about 3 1/2 thousand dollars minimum to the cost of an inexpensive kitchen versus a range. Trying to jam too many things into this design has made it expensive and unattractive. Don't get poorly made cabinets like RTA cabinetry just to get all the "stuff" you think you must have. Temper what the overall kitchen will look like and what you spend your money on to create a functional well designed space before you fill a wish list of cabinetry and appliances. For example more storage would be available and a lot of money saved by adding a pantry closet instead of pantry cabinetry.

Most importantly get good help and get it before the project even begins. This is unfortunately not happening here, and designing by committee is always a disaster. There needs to be a single knowledgeable sensible person helping from conception to completion for a kitchen to turn out well. Designing at one place, buying at another, and making changes based on on-line opinions is never a good idea. It guarantees that you are only hearing the advice that you want without it's negative ramifications and that mistakes will not be caught by someone with professional experience.

Just saying, making such generalizations are not necessarily true nor helpful.

Don't know how familiar you are with this forum, but many beautiful, well-designed and functional kitchens have been "designed by committee" here. Already in this thread, many talented folks, including Pro's are already working with the OP and I am confident, from years of observing them selflessly helping others, in their abilities to help happyallison work through this.

And suggesting Home Depot or Lowes over buehl, ll, Sophie and the others that have chimed in? I hope you can contribute in a positive way rather than stating this kitchen is too complicated to fix in this forum. Sorry to exasperate this and take it OT, but it struck a nerve since our individual and collective talents are unknown unless you have followed over time.

Back on topic, HappyAllison, what do you and DH think of buehl and lavender's plan? I personally love a screen porch but you really need the sq footage to achieve what you want. Also, it would be helpful to see your house plans showing the entire main floor.

I will continue to use an accountant for my taxes, a doctor to diagnose my illnesses, a mechanic to work on my car, and a hair stylist to cut my hair.

No matter how talented a person is they can only be as good as a professional with the same talent would have been after a few weeks experience and it takes a decade to become anything more than competent at designing kitchens, which is why I love it. The most helpful advice to give was to get better professional help and I'll stick with my evaluation especially it in this case. Sometimes untrained help no matter how well intentioned is not in the best interest of the person requesting it.

Main Line- thank you for your opinion. Everyone is entitled to one...including all of us.

I'm starting to regret these 'pro' labels. Not every Houzz member was a part of Gardenweb....so maybe a review of the many successful kitchens designed by committee would be a good idea? I would like to suggest a search of the back threads, to those new to the forum :)

Sorry Allison. I just wanted to agree with L_L about the pro labels and note that my eyeballs are starting to skip over the green "Pro" comments except for Sophie's.

Oh!!! That's good to know! I was just searching for LWO the other day and was coming up empty.

I have been on The Garden Web for years and the advice is great and sometimes the best advice possible because you can find out how products preform in the field. But entire kitchens with possible additions and the removing of walls is not where the forum shines. And yes I have seen the kitchens posted on the garden web done without professional design help and with a few exceptions they look like it.

Just to be clear...the initial kitchen is doable. The KD worked with what he/she had and drew a small kitchen with lots of appliances.

If the porch can be incorporated, there is definitely room for a larger kitchen. If not, there are some things that can be changed to make the KD plan a little better.

With a few DIY exceptions, most forum members take our plans to the pros...and ask if/could these changes be incorporated? It gives them something to show that is more specific than vague ideas and a few pictures.

And FWIW, I have been known to sew, cut my own hair and do my own taxes. But, when a job is too complicated for me to do on my own...I get someone with more experience to help me. So I had a professional sew my wedding dress, style my hair and my brother now does my taxes.

That's called being responsible and knowing your capabilities. I don't think anyone expects an OP to take our plan and start knocking down walls...unless he/she knows exactly what they're doing.

If I have to guess...it's that pros don't like having someone second guess their concepts. Main Line has already stated " But this Kitchen designer certainly shouldn't be designing kitchens" so I don't know what the problem is with getting some free help to go back to this KD or another one.

Again, if Main Line has something positive to contribute or wants to help with the plan or refer a qualified KD to help...please do so.

And finally, many people here DIY at least some small part of their project. Whether they enjoy it, to save money...or both. I hope Houzz is not going to try to wreck that and make this a Pro referral service and nothing else.....

Just wanted to add...I have seen plenty of 'pro' kitchens with dishwashers on the same side of the sink as the range and fridge and sink blocked by barrier islands.

Those are two of the fundamental tips people get, who come to the forum. Don't let the island be a barrier between sink and fridge (you'll need a prep sink if this is your only choice) and make sure your dishwasher is on the other side of the sink from the range. That way you can have prep on one side of the sink and clean up on the other.

Allison, a few ideas in case you can/decide not to extend the DR into the porch

• Never had a DW next to a fridge but, I wonder if a 12" wide tall pull-out pantry solve whatever the KD saw as a problem there (I think you mentioned that in your other thread).
• Would you consider a banquet instead of a table and chairs? I'm thinking a shallow tall (15" deep?) cab next to fridge, with glass doors above and drawers below, then an L-shaped banquet seat with drawers below.

Wow, thank you all so much. Lavendar_lass thank you for posting that layout, I really am liking it (thank you Buehl as well, yes I have two growing sons and a huge husband, never thought of leg room!). Rebunky thanks for posting the pics I'll have more to say on that later because I love love love that buttery black counter with those pretty white counters and am guessing you are deciding backsplash? :) I am dying to see your kitchen.

Excuse my absence, we've been in heavy duty talks.

Thanks to the so many of you that posted, each and every one of you has given me something to consider, that's what I was looking for. I was dragging my feet on ordering cabinets (which is about to delay us), and I realized it was just that I wasn't really happy with the kitchen layout, but couldn't figure out why. I am really starting to get a better grip on the issues, challenges, and space requirements.

I am embarrassed to admit we just didn't re-visit the issue of expansion of living space vs. screened porch, and I think this has to do to the evolution of our project. Which has been less than ideal. We spent months and months thinking based on one contractor) that it was out of reach. I think we just let that dream go, and didn't go back to it.

DH who I thought might kill me, based on yet another design change, just loved it. Of course it comes down to numbers, for my interior contractor, I'm approved. I need to verify with the framers the true cost difference. He was talking additional baffles (?) and flooring framing (it's not over heated living space) however we wonder if treated vs. untreated wood and some other things may just really offset it. We will see.

This has gotten me actually excited about the kitchen. Finally.

This is the whole reason I love to have other eyes on a project, sometimes you just really gain a fresh perspective that shakes you up and lets you think out of the box. I'm notorious for getting stuck in that box, so I try to compensate.

Main Line, I appreciate your opinion, I agree that professionals make a difference. I did go to a professional for the original design. She did know my thoughts, and designed accordingly without critique, so I see the downfall. We did buy our bath vanity from them ( it fell in budget). There were a few bath drawings with all this extra cabinetry. My husband said from the start, her job is to sell cabinetry of course she is going to add additional pieces in. Hmm, never thought of that. Good point DH. I certainly thank you Main Line for the point that this could've been designed in a similar but more efficient and more inexpensive way.

Perhaps I got a bum designer. That's a shame, I really like working with her. But, I wouldn't know, unless I went on a board like this. As I said, I like to have FRESH eyes. I'm trying to learn A LOT to be an educated consumer, in a short period of time. This board has been truly sanity saving in the amount of generous people willing to share. Some of the best features in our previous home, and this current home, have been due to our own design work. Now there are code and clearance issues, as seen in this kitchen example, that we aren't educated in. And I did have a professional KD. So I like to get more than one opinion. I have more to say on this, but I won't here. I am going to post some pics, which show our floorplan. Again, we hired a designer, but honestly I gave him our window dimensions, and I don't think he drew them correctly (even after a prelim revision). Whole point was to see how the big windows would look placed in the space. This was an expert recommended by a neighbor who used him on numerous home flips and had known him for years, and I had visited her home he designed. So I'm sorry Main Line, maybe I've had some bad luck, but when I base work off of recommendations and it doesn't work out, well there's problems. And I'm the one stuck, so I prefer more than one recommendation on design.

Thanks to you all, pics in follow post.

These two quotes make me feel truly happy for you. Yay!

"DH who I thought might kill me, based on yet another design change, just loved it."

"This has gotten me actually excited about the kitchen. Finally."

House plans ( I haven't double-checked measurements, just received them yesterday. Kitchen layout wasn't in his scope of work, EVER, he just added this in, I probably paid for it too. He was to do exterior structures only.) Screens become window, Door to outside is sliding door to stairs, then unfortunately it eliminates a hutch. There is a big tree there, which our draftsman continually leaves off the plan. I just don't get it but I digress....BIG TREE....

I've written it off....WE will figure it out.

Just rotating it in case it helps others see it...

WOO HOO! I'm doing the happy dance for you! I am beyond THRILLED you and your husband have agreed to expand the dining room into the screened porch area. You won't regret it!

We had a similar issue with our little house, to say the least. My whole kitchen, dining, living room was a similar layout to yours, except all of it was a screened porch! There was about a 5-6' wide strip of covered deck that went beyond the screened-in part. It was sorta useless. We decided to extend the wall to include that outside deck space. It made a HUGE difference, let me tell ya!

(BTW, husband is a GC for 30+ years. Just thought I better add that tidbit of information for anyone assuming I was some crazy DIYer removing walls or doing additions without professional help.)

Sorry to get Off Topic, but while I am thinking about it...Is there a dislike or thumbs down button I'm not finding?

I do agree with the fact that the KD you originally worked with was not exactly on top of his/her game. :-/ There were issues, without a doubt, with the design. However, I see no need for the ATT-I-TUDE....

Ok... Back to the topic of Allison's soon-to-be fabulous house...

I can see it. You are making delicious breakfasts, lunches and dinners either for just your immediate family or a full house packed with appreciative guests. Everyone is comfortably seated. Some are at the dining room table, some at the island, some more lounging on the sectional sofa, maybe even others hanging out on the open decks where hubby is BBQing. You're in the kitchen where you can see and interact with everyone as you are busy prepping away...

My imaginary roadway flows effortlessly throughout your whole space. No roadblocks. No deadends. Well, that's what I see anyways...Close your eyes. What do you see?

I just wanted to write an update as I've been on break since this post due to the chaos of changing plans and ensuing planning to accommodate that. I can't thank you all enough, I feel like it's crazy but this post sparked something that changed the course of things that will make a HUGE difference in my home. I'm trying to finalize plans this week on layout. I really want to post it, my DH asked me not too, as he doesn't want me second guessing anymore. :) As of now I'm trying to finalize my range hood, and a few details, and get final pricing. I'm definitely an over thinker as I know most of you are, ha ha! But I have a special appreciation for that, and I'll keep you posted.