i agree with mayflowers about the 9" cabs. i have a 12" next to my ez reach corner and i already wish that i had pushes the stove over and made it a 15" with a filler between the range and super susan. it is a tight corner but i was so focused on using every inch of space, i didn't think about spacing. if i were you, i wouldn't center the range, move it over enough to make one of those uppers bigger. possibly move the range closer to the dw and make the other side bigger? it is definitely a tough space to work with. another idea is to go to an otr micro. i know no one here likes them but if i hadn't done an otr, i would have had to give up precious cabinet or counter space. it looks like you have the same problem. many of us that have small kitchens live with them just fine.

I did consider doing blind corners instead of the easy reach corner or whatever it's called. That would give me 2 30" blinds on either side and then a 24" and a 27". I'm not actually using 100% of my upper cabinet storage space as it is, and I don't use the "blind" portion of my current wall blind cabinet at all, plus the new cabinets will be taller than the current ones. I was planning on storing cutting boards on their sides in the one 9" cabinet, and if the other one didn't really get used for much... it wouldn't have been too bad of a loss. That's one of the more minor things I'm going back and forth on.

I also did a few test layouts without the pony walls. The problem is, on the left wall right where the black wall ends in the drawing is where my sliding door begins, so the pony wall acts as a sort of buffer between the curtain for the sliding door and the counters. Especially since that tends to be where I put my dish rack. On the other side, there's a big return vent in the pony wall and then a solid wall extends to the right of it for the rest of the length of the dining area... it kind of gives it a more finished / separated off look and I'm not real sure that the 4" of extra space gained by removing it would be that beneficial. I can't extend the kitchen any further than the depth of the walls in that direction.

I do actually use the counter between the fridge and the stove more often for prep than the counter on the other side... it tends to be more clear vs the other counter which usually has a dishrack or dishes on it and has the microwave in the corner. Of course that habit could change with the new kitchen, but I wouldn't really want to get rid of too much of that counter space. I'll have to see if I can find a narrow pantry pullout in a store somewhere to get a look at it.

My big peeve with OTR microwaves is that they're so low over the stove that they're right there in your face, and I use my stove about 10x more than I use my microwave. I do acknowledge that it's probably the most space-effective choice, I am just trying to hold out and resist. ;)

Here is one with no pony walls, a pull-out pantry and blind uppers (and more of the walls in the rooms next to the kitchen):

Here's another with the pull-out pantry and keeping the pony walls:

#3 squashes what was supposed to be my nice big pot drawers a bit, so I squashed the susan a bit. I might be inclined to move the stove a few inches towards the DW in this one to get the 36x33 susan again.

I put the pantry on the other side of the fridge because my pony walls have trim on the top of them that's wider than the wall itself and I just can't see something tall and solid like a pantry cabinet working next to them... you'd have to cut the trim off all along one side and wouldn't that look weird? With the fridge there, at least there's supposed to be a few inches of space around it anyway.

The more I look at your kitchen, the more I wonder why you're doing a U and not a galley. If you moved the range & hood to the left (or to the right) you could have cabinets that go all the way through on both sides - no awkward corners & no blinds. Seems you'd gain a good deal of space from that alone.

I'm interested. We have a 9 X 9 "U" in our condo, but with no upper cabinets above the sink wall. (Overlooks the dining area and on out to the ocean.)

Going around our "U" from the right, our DW is in the the lower left corner of your drawing, then double sink, then a fold-aside hinged door to access the corner cabinet.

Our range is at the bottom of the "U" like yours, with another fold-out door to the right w/lazy susan.

Right side is two deep drawers with two side by side above them for silverware and utensils. A GE 20 cu ft side x side is in the lower right corner. (The ONLY side x side narrow enough.)

I have upper cabinets on the back wall, then M/W with exhaust, then one cabinet. There's a corner upper, then more cabinets up to and over the fridge.

The upper right corner under the angled cabinet is where I have a toaster/oven. Space could house a M/W.

I'd want the DW left of the sink, not interfering with the oven/broiler door. I don't love the M/W over the range either, but need an internal exhaust and want to keep the toaster-oven. The side x side GE doors have shorter 'swings' than a single door so they don't interfere with the DW. (Might you like stacked dishdrawers if you are mostly cooking for one? I have these in our main residence.)

I like my plain Corian countertops with integral double sink..

This is a vacation rental condo when we aren't using it. We have a big 'owner storage' closet opposite the opening into the kitchen. It's fitted with shelves and is my 'pantry' while we're there. (Might you have a nearby closet?)

We're happy enough with the kitchen layout that we decided to reface existing cabinets rather than replace. ($3800 -- decent price for Hawaii.)

If my kitchen was 9x9 I'd probably lay it out exactly like yours is, chisue. It's amazing how much of a difference an extra foot makes at this scale.

I guess I've been doing a U-shape because it already is a U-shape now. I also like having lots of counter space on either side of the stove. Like I mentioned before in one of the walls of text up there, they built my townhouse subdivision in 2 phase and the phase 1 versions of my house have galley kitchens instead. I don't know why they switched them... I guess at some point someone decided the U-shape was better. It does have more counter space in pure square feet, but I'm not sure it has more (usable) cabinet space, especially on the bottom.

Galley option:

The left wall is kinda fixed because I still can't really move the dishwasher anywhere else. On the right wall I wasn't sure how to subdivide up the space... more space between the fridge and the stove? More between the stove and the wall? Should the smallest cabinet be 12" instead of 15"?

I get an 18" and a 27" 3-drawer stack in both the U and the galley, so it comes down to lazy susan vs 33" of space divided in 2. As a bonus I could actually put my trash can in the kitchen instead of in the dining room. Definitely less upper cabinets, though, and I couldn't do a pantry pullout or anything without making ALL of the base cabinets 18" or less. I wanted at least one bigger drawer for pots and such.

Wow, interesting layout! If you CAN get rid of those pony walls, I WOULD just to maximize space. I would definitely consider getting a very large single bowl sink in a 24" cabinet and placing the dishwasher to left of sink. You already know having the DW to the right bugs you so why not fix it? What about something like this sink from IKEA with this drainboard over the dishwasher? I have it in my laundry room and the bowl is a very respectable size. It is the FARTHEST thing from centered but works ok because the drainboard makes it look offset anyway and the faucet is necessarily offset between sink and drainboard.

This would give you the ability to put 33-36" lazy susans on both sides of the stove. This might not be the best place for giant pots but would probably work for pantry items?

I guess one negative thing is the fridge door swing conflicting with the dishwasher door in this layout.

I would get rid of the pony walls for sure, I can't see that they are adding anything to the space. If you do that, then I think you could put the dishwasher to the left of the sink and still have the sink within 1" of being centered. Can you measure the distance from where the edge of the counter would be (assuming the pony wall goes) to the middle of the window? Also, when you have "27 inch sink" in the diagram, do you mean a 27" sink base and some single-bowl sink centered in the sink base? That's what I'm assuming...

Does your sink have to be centered on the window? Can one sink edge line up with one edge of the window? That works great in our home because we usually have drying dishes to the left of the sink and visually the "sink cluster" (including the dsmall dish rack) is centered on the sink. Honestly I didn't notice that the sink was not centered until I started measurements for my remodel.
Without the pony wall, could you push your sink run just a few inches into the next room? Having a 24" dishwaher to the left of the sink would greatly increase your storage if you could get in another 33x36 super susan there. That's a huge amount of storage space to give up.

Whoo boy. I think to myself, I have the layout nailed down, all the GWers will agree with me. And now I'm redrawing everything all over again.

One question I always had about moving the DW to the end and eliminating the wall - the DW can't literally be right on the end of the cabinet run, can it? Wouldn't it have to have a filler or a panel or something on the end? How wide would that have to be?

Here's a bigger overview of the space:

Basically there's less than 6" from the end of the current cabinets to the trim for the sliding door. From the edge of the wall to the outer edge of the window trim is about 12", maybe a tad bit less. And the window is 36" wide measured from the outer trim edges.

From the "research" I have done (I am far from an expert), you'd need about a 3/4" panel on the end next to the dishwasher for the counter to sit on. I'm thinking that space could be what is currently being used by the trim of the pony wall, since you wouldn't need trim (baseboard etc) on the end panel. So let's say you gain maybe 5" with the destruction of the pony wall, then you're using only 19" of current cabinet space for your dishwasher. If you then put a 27" sink base, the center of the sink base will be about 2.5" away from the center of the window. If you use a 24" sink base then the center will be only 1" off-center from the window.

Like I said, I am not an expert, so I defer to anyone whose knowledge of such things trumps mine. :)

Oh, and incidentally, the original plan (with 18" drawers and then a 27" sink base) has the center of the sink base being about 1.5" away from the center of the window. So I would say the 2.5" offset is not significantly more, and the 1" offset is actually less if you decide that you can live with a smaller sink. (In shopping for sinks, I have found that there are relatively few available for a 27" base that wouldn't also fit in a 24" base.)

A dishwasher at the end needs a 3/4" panel to support the counter. My dishwasher is at the end of my stove run (odd kitchen, long story) but this picture shows the end panel holding the counter.

Since you live alone, have you considered a 24" or 25" refrigerator or an 18" dishwasher to save on space?

Here is a link that might be useful: 25

I would use an 18" DW. It sounds like you do some hand-washing daily anyway. My sink base is 28" and I wouldn't like it any smaller. 24" is a vanity sink base. I think your goal should be making the primary prep zone work, so the DW needs to get out of it!

If you want to see a great galley, look up Brooklyngalley's kitchen reveal.

robotropolis' kitchen makes the absolute best sense to me, unless you decide to go with a smaller dishwasher. We are just two, now, DH and I, and except when kids come to visit a 18" DW would likely suit us fine.

If/when we do a complete remodel of the kitchen this is likely what will happen. As it is I am only running it every other day and it is usually not full when I do.

One more thing to think about is that a 24 inch drop in sink is probably the same size internally as you would get for a 27 inch undermount sink. That Bolholmen sink that robotopolis posted is probably perfect for visually creating the appearance of a centered sink with the dishwasher to the left and the drainboard over the dishwasher, and will fit in a 24 inch cabinet. Even without a drainboard sink , the dishwasher to the left would take up your 17" (12"+4.75") plus 7 inches (to total 24 inches) plus approx 1 inch for the support plinth. That is 8 inches off your 36 inch window (including trim) and leave 28 inches. You can easily put in a 24 inch drop in sink (we have used one for 20 years, works fine for a family of 5 alongside the dishwasher and will have it wholly in front of the window glass area. I would not worry about centering in the sink as long as it is somewhere in front of the window. You do not have any sight lines that would let people notice that the sink is not exactly centered.

here's a pic of my boholmen which happens to be in a 36" base just because I was reusing kitchen cabinets for laundry.

I'd also really think about an 18" DW. Apparently the European ones (Miele, Bosch, etc), because of layout of racks, have just about the interior space of a 24" American DW. And yes to the end of the run - my old kitchen (which was a 'new' kitchen) had it there with a 3/4" panel. Wouldn't have fit anywhere else.

I also blinded my only upper corner in my current kitchen- it took a lot of convincing from KD. But the usability of the two cabs on either side of the door far outweighed the 'easy reach' of the corner. robotropolis' design shows how much easier life will really be - 18" and 22" doors are much easier to access things than a 9". I had a 9" in my last kitchen. It held vitamin bottles and not very well. I would hate 2 of them in a kitchen!

Oh my goodness, TWELVES are practically useless. Given a choice I would not even waste the energy on a second thought for nines.

I'm chiming in with empathy about small kitchens and robbing Peters to pay Pauls. These are NOT easy decisions. I went back and forth between galley versus L versus U. I landed with a U, mostly because we want that peninsula to sit at and enjoy.

And yes, microwaves are the curse of every kitchen. Yours is a pretty good solution, though. Especially right there by the fridge/freezer.

I really like robotropolis' layout. A LOT. I totally think you would find more than enough sink in a 24" cabinet with a single bowl. My aunt did this in her Chicago condo and loves it.

I just wanted to point you to a kitchen that we here on GW have really loved. Not to complicate things, it's a galley. But, I think there's a lot of great ideas here. She has a 24" fridge and an 18" DW and it's such a great example of how pulled together, functional and high end a small kitchen can become.

PS - I couldn't cope with not having a garbage in the kitchen. Doesn't that seem like kind of a must-have, even if it has to get figured out under the sink?

This post was edited by Steph2000 on Mon, Apr 21, 14 at 14:07

I think I am definitely sold on getting rid of the pony walls, moving the DW to the end of the run and using an OTR microwave. I actually have new HVAC being installed this month so I'm going to ask the installers when they're here what the implications of moving the return vent over a couple of feet are. I'd lose an outlet that I never use anyway, but otherwise I don't think it'd cause any problems.

I don't really want to go with nonstandard-sized appliances. They cost more than the bigger ones and there are lots of townhouses/condos in this area with similar-sized kitchens, and all of them have standard-sized appliances - I don't want to be "that weird house with the odd-sized fridge" or whatever, when it comes to resale. Plus my fridge is actually new and I like it very much.

Here is my latest and greatest U-shaped variation:

I'm trying to depict having the fridge built with the 2 full-height panels on either side and the fridge-depth cabinet up above, in case that isn't clear from the drawing.

The sink isn't as off-center as I thought it would be, and as someone upthread pointed out, it was off-center in the original drawing anyway because my window placement was a bit off. It looks like the faucet would only be about 2" to the right of where it is now. I don't really care for the integrated drainboard sink, sorry. I actually wish I could get rid of the drainboard entirely but there always seems to be one random frying pan or knife or something that has to be hand-washed.

I would do a small trash pullout in the sink cabinet, if I did one at all. I might not. Something about the idea of having a trash can in a cabinet skeeves me out a bit.

Latest galley:

The more I look at it the more I think I might prefer going with the galley version and nixing the corner issue entirely.

Technically it gives me a bit more lower storage (including the pantry pullout in that), but a bit less upper storage. But like I said before my uppers aren't full now anyway. It has 15" less countertop frontage, but 10 sq ft less space overall... the extra sq ft loss mainly coming from corners.

YES! I like #5 and #6 with the DW in a better spot. I'd like a pullout beside the sink in the "U" plan for garbage or recycling -- whichever you have more of. You could have a freestanding container in the galley configuratiion.

I miss my home beside-the-sink pullout when I'm at the condo. It's easier than bending to open a cabinet under the sink, pulling out the container, then putting it back and re-closing the cabinet door. (Same reason drawers beat roll-outs within a base cabinet.)

I doubt you'll fit a trash pullout in a 27" sink base. The garbage disposal has to fit too, a consideration for not going smaller on the sink base. You'd need a side-drain sink, and I recall very few choices in that size.

I think I have the smallest trash pullout Rev-a-Shelf makes, and my trash cabinet needed to be 13 1/2". It's their top-mount style.

I think brooklyngalley has a 9" pantry pullout against the far wall, and then the fridge. It doesn't block the doorway like yours. She has a large prep counter adjacent to the fridge.

I don't really know if trash would fit under the sink or not, the point was just that given the choice between a base cabinet solely for trash or a base cabinet for more storage, I'd definitely go with more storage. I honestly had no idea keeping trash in a cabinet was a thing until I started reading GW a few years ago. So yeah, not real concerned about that.

I've had a look at the Brooklyn galley kitchen and it's very nice, but using the same exact layout in mine wouldn't work. That kitchen is nearly a foot longer than mine, for starters, and nonstandard-sized appliances are more acceptable in an apartment in Brooklyn than they are in a house in the suburbs. Putting the sink and range on the same wall would give me 12" of space between them. I know that I would hate that. I seem to always find myself fighting for more space around the sink, in every kitchen I've ever used. Same issue with putting the fridge on that wall.

I could flip the fridge to the opposite side of the wall in the galley kitchen, but that puts the stove directly across from the sink. That doesn't seem like the best idea? In the other configuration there's prep space across from the stove instead. Seems like it would be easier to use for me, and the fridge creates kind of a buffer between the stove and its associated splatter, etc. and the rest of the house. In theory. Visually, at least.

I might have missed something, but if you put the fridge on the sink wall in the galley layout you would gain more prep space beside the stove. I think the mental barrier of the fridge near the stove is a valid point, but does that match your current prep behavior?

Looking much better! You may want to consider losing the 15 inch upper, or use open shelves, to the left of the window in order to open up the visual space there. Alternatively use glass sides and front on a cabinet.

Yes, I like the idea of doing the 15" upper in glass, and actually I'd think about doing the upper cabinet on the other side of the window in glass also.

I do like the galley layout that you have above!