2nd attempt to get layout pic in:

{{gwi:1797552}}

Your aisles are a little tight, but probably doable. You're trying for a unique idea in a limited space, so there are compromises.

When the kids are older and clearing the dishwasher to set the table while you cook, you won't be able to get to the sink or fridge from the range. Maybe switch the dw to the other side of the sink? I can see reasons to leave it where it is, but not if it blocks your path between those crucial areas.

I can't really see so much of the writing for the details, I can't give a complete opinion. Will your microwave really fit in that narrow space, and where will your dishes be stored?

I'm worried about you having enough storage, in general. Have you mapped out where canned foods, baking supplies (flour, etc), spices, oils, crackers and cereal, utensils, pots and pans, baking dishes, baking pans, knives, cutting boards, plastic wrap, dish towels, Tupperware, baby dishes, etc., etc. will go?

rhome410-

Sorry about the writing- if you go to my photobucket account, you can see the layout better, and the writing is clear. That will answer some of your questions about where each group of things will go. This is about 2.5xs the storage I have now, so I am not too worried about that.

A large part of the reasoning behind the appliance locations is budget (gas line close to current location, sink and DW, close to current location). the micro has been one area of ocntention, and I was planning to get whatever I can to fit the space. I alloted space for a 24" wide x about 18" deep. I would love to move the micro somewhere else though. There are 2 pantry cabs on the far left of the long wall, which is more than I currently have.

I planned to put flours, etc. in the island, canned foods and crackers and cereal in the pantry, baking dishes in the 24" drawer stack to the left of the range, knives in the same 24" stack, baking pans and cutting boards to the right of the range, all plasticware and kids dishes below the microwave stack, pots and pans hanging to the right of the range, plastic wrap, either in the pantry cab or in the top of the trash pullout to the left of the DW. Olis and vineagars would be mostly on the counter to the right of the range, and spices (often used) in the drawer to the right of the range.

Currently we have the fridge, sink, 18" dw, and 30" range all on that back wall. I hate it because there is no prep space. I really want to get as long an expanse of countertop as possible between the sink and range (thus the DW on the right of the sink, and moving the fridge off that wall).

Another possibility I played with was puttin the range against the window/back door wall, between the door and the window. I would then put the fridge where the 18"trash/sink is, and move the sink and dw down. I am not sure how i would like having the sink and range on separate walls with the door between them. Also, the range would then face the living room. Not terrible, but something to consider.

I was trying not to create a "barrier island" effect with the island.

I would welcome any different layout suggestions (including moving plumbing, gas line, appliance position).

Thanks!

I love cleo_2007's kitchen, and have exchanged alot of info with her- her kitchen seems to be very similar to my space.

Here is a link that might be useful: my photobucket page

hi amberley
I didn't realize the chefs table post was you. I thought chef's table was the name of a show I hadn't seen so I didn't even look at the post figuring I had nothing to add if I hadn't seen the show.:)

I love the John Cicada kitchen chefkev posted. Is does look similar to the look you want right down to the hood style.

The main thing I would worry about are your aisle clearances. Like I told you, the working side of my kitchen aisle is 36 inches. While my dishwasher is open, you can't get through. 32 inches is not doable at all. How wide is your island? If I could do mine again, I would do a 30 inch wide island, instead of 36 inches. That would give you the aisle clearance you need. If your table is custom, you can fit it to that.

And don't forget storage like rhome says. My new kitchen does not hold as much as the older one without the upper cabinets. I did make sacrifices in storage to get the no upper look I wanted.

It is a good first work up.

Can you fax me the layout so I can see the numbers better? You have my number (the 927 one) My fax should just pick up.

cleo- I will send the fax after I post- you can also see the writing and the numbers more clearly I think if you go to the photobucket page. The main aisle is actually 42", not 32", and the aisle between the fridge and the island is 39.5" (seating on the opposite side, unlike yours), and the other side, with the seating, has a 41.5" aisle. I had also considered getting dishdrawers instead of a traditional dw also to save manuevering space.

I really do think I am okay with storage- I do have some uppers planned, and several "hutches"- flanking the sideboard. Currently I only have a (completely useless) separate pantry 9it is the thing I hate most), 2 15" base cabs, and one 18" base cab. the uppers are 1@ 45" wide x 22" tall, 2@ 18" wide x 22" tall, 25" wide x 22" tall, and 29" wide x 15" tall. In the diinng room I have a closet that has overflow fine china that is roughly equivelant to the space that will be in one of the hutches on the side of the sideboard.

Maybe it's computer differences, or maybe it's because you know what they say already, but I can't read your plan any better on Photobucket than here.

If you are satisfied with storage, that's OK with me. Just wanted to be sure you'd thought that all through for yourself. Don't want to have you get all finished and realize you have no space for ____.

I still think the dw could be a problem, but maybe it's just one of the compromises.

Another thing I hope you've thought about is that life will change a lot (constantly) in the next several years. Life with preteens and teens is quite different than life with toddlers. Try to think through the stages, knowing you want them to learn to help you and enjoy cooking and baking, too, ...and they will be doing tasks like emptying trash, doing dishes, etc. You'll want to try to make sure your kitchen will still meet your needs then, as well as now. --I'm not saying it won't, because if I saw anything obvious, I'd tell you...I just want to think through for your own family and ways of doing things.

I can't read your text either.

I think photobucket shrunk your original image. when you go to upload your image, there is a little note under "images from my pc" that states the maximum image size and a tiny little clickable options button to change it.

Because its handwriting and pencil - try 1024 by 768 or 800 x 600. Right now, its about 640 x 480. You'll need to upload the original again - its not possible to add back what was removed.

How is this one?

rhome-

I agree with you about the DW potentially being an issue-the main reason it is on that side as I said, is becuse I wanted the counter space between the sink and the range. I would love another solution is any one has any thoughts.

As for life with kids later, I guess it is a bit hard to imagine as these are the only ones I've got, but, I did think of a couple things:

1. I envisioned the table/island combo as a place where homework can be done, without being in my (the cook) way

2. the island is also meant to be the baking center, and can be used by myself and the kids to bake cookies, etc, with everyone on their own side of the island.

3. As they get older, I want our house to be the house where all thier friends are always welcome, which is why I liked the fridge and micro stack a bit spearated from the main work area.

I would love input from you guys with older kids how things function differently with older kids.

{{gwi:1797554}}

Much better drawing size.

Mostly, as far as the kids getting older, I meant think about more traffic with larger bodies...and they never move slowly. First of all, there are the tasks/chores they'll be involved with that I mentioned above. Then there's the rushing into grab a snack, or fix a quick meal before some kind of practice or group meeting. They'll be doing these things while you are also trying to make dinner and make cupcakes for an after school event the next day, possibly fighting for the same floor space. Just try to plan for different people doing different things, and try to avoid any of the possible traffic tie-ups.

Take a marker and draw your path to make dinner. Use one of a different color to draw the path of a kid clearing the dishwasher and setting the table. Use a 3rd color to map the route of a dd baking a pie for dessert....Something like that. For instance, you have planned the fridge side of the island for baking so they're out of your way, but have the baking pans on the right side of the range. Maybe it has to be that way, or maybe it can be better.

It's just easy to think they'll always be small and you'll always be working alone, and design your kitchen accordingly...But soon things will change and you want a kitchen that will flex with your needs, if at all possible.

rhome-

I really see your point about the DW. Ideally I would rather have the range centered on that wall in line with the center of the island. I wrote an emailto cleo last night explaining what I thought mmight be ideal- but would require structural work, and I have no idea how much that could cost.

Here is what I sent to cleo:

The current sink/range wall has no windows (this is the side that shares a wall with the next house). I am up in the air about uppers. Maybe open uppers or shelves, or glass uppers??? Part of the problem there is how to vent the hood- it MUST go through the wall with the back door on it, so therefore it must come across to the right of the range, essentially creating a soffit. I thought I might hang a pot rack underneath the "soffit"??
I am already moving the sink pipes about 2 feet to the left, and the gas line slightly to the left in this plan. We may have more options in moving gas lines/plumbing, since it everything in the basement will be opened up. I would really love to have the range centered on the island which means a larger vent/soffit thing, but gives the room a nice balance. Problem then becomes what to do with the sink/dw, and then the fridge.
My husband is rolling his eyes at me because I am now entertaining the thought of blocking up the smaller doorway to the living room to create an L-shape, and put the sink/dw on that wall instead of the fridge (move the fridge down to the right of the centered range). This is a major undertaking however, because I would want to make the now sink wall a half wall to open it up (that direction is south facing and that doorway lets in a lot of the light). So, we would be looking at relinteling the entire span. This is certainly not a DIY item, and would require a building permit, and more money....BUT would it be the best solution to the space???

Any thoughts on this layout idea, as well as how much this might cost to restructure the load-bearing wall?

If you just left a window-type opening where the current doorway is, would that be enough for you? (Instead of cutting down to a half-wall) That wouldn't demand any restructuring, just filling in. You might be able to make it wider without too much extra work or expense, but I'm no expert. I still think it would be easier and less problem than going to a half-wall.

The only problem I see with your proposed plan is that the fridge would then be hard to get to for anyone but the cook. If someone wanted a drink, they'd be scooting past you at the stove. But I'm thinking it'd be OK, since you could train them to take the route around the island.

It's good you're thinking this through and investigating the way you'd really like to have it. No use doing a remodel and always wishing it was another layout. Sometimes things aren't as expensive or complex as they seem, and it's worth it to find out and compare the cost to the long-term benefit.

Make sure you can open the fridge door and have the mixer out at the same time. That could require a small move or limit your fridge choices. A French door style would minimize conflict between those two as well as allow you to open from the table side or the kitchen side.

Hi amberley. Sorry I haven't checked in. It is bookfair week at our school and I am one of the people in charge.

About the duct run: I was able to fit my 8 inch duct in between my joists to avoid a soffit. I freaked out initially because there is a drain up there but I was able to smash the duct into an oblong shape to get it through. Which way do your joists run and if they run the right direction, are they clear of pipes, etc.

I would think about switching the bar area with the message area. When you entertain, you will have people going around the chefs table to get to the drinks. Maybe include a small bar sink, beverage fridge etc to keep people out of your work space. You have 48 inches or so to work with so it can be a cool area.

Which doorway do you use to come in the kitchen now from your living room? I always like a room to have 2 doorways for good flow, especially since you are turning two rooms into one. On the other hand, that doorway leads right into the heart of your cooking area. By removing it, you would change the flow of traffic out of "your area". That is a tough one but I think I would leave the doorway there for now and see if you can get what you want.

I also thought of moving the server currently under the window to the far end of the kitchen. This would mean shortening your island. You would however, gain that whole other wall of base cabinetry and countertop on the exterior door wall. try to find a way to have each wall have a focal point of some sort.

Re upper cabinets: Since you love the look of a kitchen without uppers, do the kitchen without them for now. You can add them later if you want them. not having uppers really fools the eye into thinking there is more space than there really is.

Also
I just got the most amazing book in the mail. You have to at least go to Borders or Barnes and Noble to look at the photographs. It is called French Country Kitchens. It is totally your style with antique butcher blocks, stone hoods, farm sinks etc. I can't seem to stop buying these kitchen porn books.

I will keep trying to figure it out.

cleo-

I keep laughing about "kitchen porn". I wish I remembered which GW-er coined that one. I also like another term from a GW-er: "cabinet sudoku". I guess that is the process I am in right now.

As for the venting, my joists do run the right way, however, I do have a pipe chase right in that corner (this would be the one that the plumbers want to enlarge and tie into from the bathroom fiasco. I have no idea if this is feasible. The good thing is that we will have to open it up to fix the bathroom venting, so maybe we can get an idea of what we can do there. We are also planning that wall to be studded out (it is just plaster on mesh on concrete right now), so maybe we can provide for the venting there? We have, I think, 10" joists (at least we do in the basment, but it could be smaller on the 2nd floor bcs the load is lighter). Maybe it would work!! This would be huge!!!

I like the idea of putting the bar in that area as well- only main reason I did that was to hide all of the "junky" stuff that inevitably ends up there from the living room. Putting a sink there really isn't a possibility-way to far from any existing plumbing. But that is okay. I would be content with my wine fridge, and there is plenty of room for that.

The doorway thing is an area of contention. That way (that has the 2 doorways to the l/r) is load bearing. I am not sure what would be required if we were to make changes. If we blocked up the smaller doorway close the range wall, I would want to open up the wall that the fridge is on in the plan above to be a half or higher wall that was open to the l/r. I get alot of my light from that smaller doorway (southern exposure).

I thought that if I did that, I could have the sink and DW facing the l/r, and then maybe the fridge between the backdoor and right window (where the sideboard is). Does this sound familiar :)?

My problem then becomes where to put the sideboard...
I like the idea of having the sideboard on the far window. But, I would end up with such a teensy island! I would create a great balance with the range at one end and the sideboard at the other.

I really wonder about the structural thing though? Might that not be a huge expense?? Would I have to relintel the whole span, or just do a support column on the end?

BTW, I found a great kitchen that has my table/island butted together idea:

Here is a link that might be useful: island/table together to create long island

This is a really crappy drawing, but it shows the idea.{{gwi:1797555}}

I can't do curves except by accident! So rhome and closing the door way a bit plus trying to get you out of cooking in a narrow major aisleway.

amberley, I think bmorepanic has solved the problem!

Is it possible to flip the kitchen to the opposite wall?
i.e. meaning you move your sink under the opposite window wall, move the range and hood to your server wall and move the fridge to the little corner/message area. You would then walk into the kitchen at the chef table end and keep everyone out of your work zone. Also, you wouldn't have to stud out that wall because it would not need electrical thus giving you 4 more inches too.

This would give you your own work corner, solve the soffit problem and give you a more symmetrical look with the sink then being the focal point on one wall and the hood would be a beautiful focal point that could be seen from the living room. The other blank wall would have some art or sconces. I don't know how the measurements line up but it is a thought. This would involve moving the plumbing more than you like but saving on engineering etc. Moving the plumbing means opening up the ceiling from below. The plumbers can get started on that while they fix your bathroom downstairs. Drywall the ceiling is a pain but n ot particularly expensive, even if you pay someone.

Also I have been looking at the faux or lightweight stone hoods and I think the most affordable hood to get the look you want is to follow igloochic's lead and make a plaster one with a wood frame underneath. Get some beautiful antiqued corbels to sit on the counter. I think it could be done for about half the price.

bmorepanic and cleo-

Really original ideas that I wouldn't have thought of bmorepanic. Unfortunately, I don't think it would work for me. I really don't care for "floating" ranges- I much prefer them against a wall (IMHO). Also, focusing anything on the side window wouldn't be ideal- I live next to a bank that is not exactly attractive, so I don't really want to look at it even more than I am now. Moving the gas line off of the original wall would require going through the joists (they run parallel to the 15'3" side), and moving the main sink way over there means major work in the basement as well because it is still fairly outside the existing (or lack thereof) plumbing.

Also, I really want to have a separate (freestanding) dining table, which I plan to have made from a wonderful old-fashioned furniture maker in Virginia. this table is actually one of my most important changes (the one I have now is awful). Closing up the large opening really isn't an option for me, as that is the main traffic area during parties. The other opening close to the wall is only 30" wide, and what I do not have drawn in the picture is that it directly butts up to (perpendicular) to the basement door. When the basement dooe is open, it block that kitche opening. That is another reason that I wouldn't mind closing that one up instead.

I love the idea, but I just don't think it would work for me, IMHO. No hurt feelings I hope.

What I am really thinking about is making a half wall where the fridge is and putting the sink and DW there, and essentially creating an L-shape with the back wall, with the range centered on it, and the fridge next to the back door on the exterior wall. Oh, cleo, I will take a pic to show you why I would want to make it a half wall instead of leaving an opening where the door is. I guess I really need to take a bunch of exisiting pics so you guys get a good idea of what I am working with. I will do that after I pick up older DS from school.

Oh, one other thing, we can't put cabs underneath of that window, or the one near the door (not next to) because they both have radiators under them (flush with walls) and the windows are 4-5 inches below counter height (masonry walls, and just ordered new windows 3 weeks ago). I should have mentioned that in the original post.

amberley - sorry I didn't check in sooner. I love your layout - what a great 1st try! I spent an hour writing a post two nights ago an then managed to delete it just before I submitted it. I don't know if you've moved on from the drawing you posted, but I'm going to put in a couple of thoughts and hope at least one or two are helpful. Please bear in mind I'm not a "layout guru", but since this is a Chef's table I'm jumping in.

1. Would you consider switching the dishwasher and the trash pullout so the dishwasher is on the left? That would give much better clearance for walking behind the person unloading dishes. You could simply move the sink to the right 6" (the sink would be a little more behind the island, but 42" clearance should be enough for passing anyone washing dishes). Or you could also steal a few inches from the pantry to the left. This might make the hall/LR entryway a little tight. I don't know how much traffic this entryway gets, but there is another entry way just on the other side of the fridge. Stealing a little from the pantry could move your range a little to the left and give you a little more counter space on the right (it looks like you have only 15-17") for ingredients/utensils/mise en place and "on deck" pots/pans"

2. Also for better dishwasher clearance, would you consider shortening the marble area 6", getting rid of the mixer cab, putting your mixer underneath the butcher block and expanding your baking drawers from 30" to 36"? (don't know if this would cramp your "rolling" style) I'm biased against the mixer cabinets which have a shelf that positions up to the counter, because the ones I've seen tend to shake a lot once the mixer really gets going.

3. If you're doing volume baking, would you consider leaving space for a 18"x18" rolling cart w/5-6 shelves underneath the area labeled "bookcase or open for stools"? I made a 6 shelf one for myself out of Metro shelving. It has a cutting board insert top. It acts both as a cooling and loading rack for baked items (when kids are little allow pans to cool on counter for 15 min before putting on cart). It can store all sorts of baking and cookie pans & parchment paper/silpats. And it can be rolled to wherever it is needed in the kitchen. Just an idea!

4. Also for sheet & baking pan storage, have you considered using the cabinet above your fridge. I went with a 24"d x 36"w cab and put vertical inserts in it to keep the pans sorted and standing up. That way you only have to be able to reach the bottom corner to pull them out. It's a great use of an area that's normally "hard to reach" storage (unless of course you're really tall which I'm not).

5. I like having the microwave by the fridge as a lot of what I use it for is heating up leftovers. Would it be possible to add a shelf above the "Micro T.O. Stack" and put the microwave on it? (I know for some the unenclosed microwave is an "aesthetics violation"). If you can go with a smaller microwave that's only 18" wide, you get a little counter right by the fridge. This also keeps the microwave out of reach from little ones (Although now that DD just turned 11 and is allowed to use microwave, she's complaining it's hard to reach). You could also put plastic wraps and bags in the top drawer stack and use this station for wrapping/putting away food that goes into the fridge. I like having the plastic wrap by the microwave because I'm always using it to cover containers and bowls I'm putting into it.

Again, I hope at least one of these is helpful. Congratulations on your fine start.

chefkev-

The only reason that I put the DW on the right is to gain additional prep space between the sink and the range. I only have 24" right now it and drives me nuts. My goal was a minimum of 36", but as much as I could get (thus the tighter counter space to the right of the stove) I currently only have about 9" to the right of the range, so I thought that 15" or so was an improvement. I do agree with rhome and you that the DW and range could get pretty hairy that close together though.

Stealing from the panty may not be an option, as I am at the moment planning to use IKEA cabs to save on cost, and they only come in a couple of sizes for the tall pantry cabs (15", 24" and 30' wide).

The "mixer cabinet" is actally not one of those pull up things- my mom got one a few years agoa, and I don't like them too much. I was just planning on a regular cabinet there to store it. I am not nuts about having it "out" (I am one of those people that isn't a fan of the small appliances not living inside something that can be closed.

Th rolling cart is a great idea, but I have 2 little guys that would pull EVERYTHING off of it on a daily basis, and I would really like to have those 2 counter stools.

I do like the idea of the pans and sheets above the fridge. I didn't really have a good spot for those yet. My only concern is that I might be too short? I am only 5'2".

The way I envisioned the Micro stack is similiar to what you suggest. I do plan to get one that sits on a shelf (one of my planned "scrimps") as opposed to a built-in. On the counter top part I plan to put my toaster oven, which we use constantly. I plan to do the micro above that, and then a shelf for cookbooks on the top. The base cabinet would house the plasticware and kids melamine dishes. I like the idea of having the plastic wrap, etc. in the shallow drawer there- that is a good idea.

I haven't yet redrawn anything- things have been a little nutty in our house the last few weeks (see my post about the sewer gas in the basement bathroom). I am hoping to get some "planning time" to myself this weekend. I seem to be convicing myself that the best layout may be the one I described earlier- putting the sink and DW where the fridge is, closing up the small doorway, and doing a half wall where the "floating" fridge wall is.

I am still working on getting some pictures of the current kitchen up- I went to take some yesterday before dinner and discovered my almost three year old had gotten into the box of Nestle Quik and had a mountain of it on the floor, with dark brown gooey hands and face. I knew it was too quiet in there...

amberley,

Good luck with your layout. Could you tell me where I could see a photo of cleo_2007's kitchen? I am also aiming for French Country so I'd love to see it but I could not find it in the Finished Kitchens Blog. Is it somewhere else?

Thanks a lot,

Ginny

gopack-

cleo_2007 is not in the FKB, but she does hace her pics linked in the thread at the bottom. Cleo has been SUPER helpful to me (even faxing me her floorplan). She has great taste too. Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress!

Amy

Here is a link that might be useful: cleo_2007 thread with pics

Amy,

Thanks so much for the link to Cleo's kitchen!! It is great! I love the cab colors and the hood and the.....everything. :) I hope your kitchen turns out exactly the way you want it and you get that happy feeling from using it. I meet with our cabinet maker for the last meeting tomorrow so I am making some last minute changes. Very stressful when you are a perfectionist!!

There must be a P.A. club for us perfectionists. :)

Ginny

Here're three options. These all have pros & cons, but they do present you w/other ideas to work from.

Close off smaller LR doorway. Island is not a "barrier island," but it does block the back porch door. People will have to go around the island...and probably through the cooking/prepping area b/c it's closer to the only doorway from the LR now. Oh, the counters are 27" deep on the sink wall and the associated upper cabs are 15" deep. The sink is pulled out an additional 3" (for 6" total) so there is an extra 6" b/w the window & the sink...more room for faucet, plants, etc.

Similar to what you had...unfortunately, the island is a "barrier island". Perhaps a little less so in the first picture w/refrigerator closer to the sink.

buehl-

You havesome great ideas! I need to digest! I see alot of things that could really work for me! I am hoping to get some time tomorrow or Saturday to really sit down and hash some stuff out. Had to take advantage of the beautiful weather we are (finally) having- so I have been working in the garden today.

BTW- looking forward to those finished kitchen pics!!

Amberley, just read your whole basement saga - my heart goes out to you! Hang in there.

Thanks chefkev- I'm still trying to work on the kitchen...juggling alot of stuff right now.