First thing I'd do is take him off meds.
If 3 therapists can't find anything wrong, then don't treat him for phantom problems.
If he's displayed this behavior for 7 years, what's another year? Throwing him out is the worse thing they could do.
For one thing, the parents are still responsible for his vandalism, etc until he is 18. Putting a 17 on the streets is only asking for trouble.
He'll probably grow out of this.
Love and support him.
Report back when he's 18.

My sympathy to all of you. Don't throw him out. Wish i had something constructive to offer.

I sure hope they don't put him out on the streets. I think some family counseling is due--and if they aren't getting postive results from one, find another that deals with problem teens. I feel so sorry for the kid. Also grateful he wasn't mine. Gosh, they sound like such loving parents, it must be killing them.

Throwing him out of the house is not the solution and will probably just make things worse. Is he involved in an activities such as sports, drama, volunteer work? Perhaps he needs something to keep him busier. How are his grades? Does he get into trouble as school? Perhaps a new group of friends is in order.

Linda

Has he had an MRI to rule out a tumor pressing on his brain or other medical issues?

I certainly would not put him out of the street.

Jodi-

Hi, Seems like the parents have done everything they know. I've heard great things about this book. It doesn't cost much and certainly couldn't hurt the situation. Luckily, I didn't have a kid like this, but know a few people with a 'bad boy', among several normal kids. In all the cases I know, the parents seem very normal, but one kid starts acting out from day one or from some point and won't stop, no matter what the consequences. It's possible that there was a traumatic experience at a certain age that has affected him, or an anger problem, but once that's ruled out, you have to figure out how to stop the behavior rather than stewing over causes. I agree about stopping meds if there's no reason for them. Has he seen a psychiatrist? That may be worth a try. It could be that he gets a thrill out of his actions just like an addict gets from their drug, and like an addict, will do whatever it takes to get to the next 'fix'. People who do this can be very charming, because it takes a lot of charm to convince others that what they're seeing over and over won't continue. He's probably also the center of attention when he does things, which may give him a payoff. Once he's 18, it will be almost impossible for anyone to get him help. Good luck with this. Linda

Here is a link that might be useful: A book that may help

Just sending you the best of luck with whatever you decide!

Sending hugs and prayers for you and DH to make a decision that will help all.
My only suggestions are make sure he has a complete medical checkup. MRI, blood, etc. Also check for allergies, food, etc. Are you near a large hospital? Do they have specialists in your area?
Sounds like you have done/are doing the counseling and it does sound more medical that emotional. I have a son that we went thru situations similar to this, and found out he needs to stay off sugar and preservatives and it has helped. Of course this was many years ago and the medical people did not know all this stuff.
Are there law enforcement officials that could work/talk with him who are specially trained with handling "problem" youth. Church officials?
I do wish you the best.

I am so sorry to hear that your DB & DSIL are going through this problem with their son. I have two boys and haven't been through anything like this, and so am certainly no expert, but I don't feel that kicking your DN out of the house would help in any way - if anything, it could make the situation worse. If the meds are not making any difference, I would take him off them, as others have suggested. Did your DN suffer any head trauma or such like when he was around 10 to trigger this behaviour? Your DN has said that he doesn't know why he does these things and it would seem that maybe there is some underlying medical problem that is causing this? My thoughts are with you all and I hope that some answers can be found as to why your DN is acting this way.

Hi, just checking in to see if anyone would have the patience to read such a long post. Thankyou for the responses so far.

hayjud I didn't mention the things you asked about only because my post was so long already. DN was raised along with his siblings from a young age to share in the household chores and responsibilities. I have 7 siblings and all of us have visited with my DB over the years at the different cities where he has been posted. So we've seen firsthand that his children have always been expected to be productive members of their family. The kids all keep their own bedrooms clean and also have a list of chores they take turns doing every day.

I think my DSIL would split a gut if any of her kids expected her to fetch things for them. She is a very kind mother, but in no way a pushover. She was also in the military when she met my DB, and that lifestyle really seems to make people intolerant of laziness or self indulgence. They have a 'love them lots, spoil them not' approach to parenting. Of course no parents are perfect, we all make mistakes, but it truly is not apparent to any of their friends or our large family what could possibly be the reason for this one child's behaviour.

DN has had part time jobs since age 11 as a paperboy, then a grocery clerk and he currently works at the local library. He has never stolen or done property damage at any place he worked, so there seems to be some sense of propriety, though the fact that he commits these offenses ANYWHERE makes that statement dubious. Ironically, a small portion of DN's job income has always been put away to help pay for his college tuition some day, yet at the rate he's going, he may be in jail before he gets there!

My DB was almost crying on the phone last night, as he truly doesn't know why his son does these things and how to get him to stop. I really don't know what to tell him. Ideally, they hope to keep DN in their home at least to ensure he'll stay in school until he graduates next year. But they are at such a loss for a solution that they're beginning to wonder if throwing him out would by some miracle wake him up to realize he's ruining his life. If that was a guarantee, DB would toss him out in a heartbeat, because it's more important for him to have a law abiding son who respects others' property, than one who graduates, but is constantly in trouble.

DN's siblings love him, but they are becoming resentful of the fact that they basically have to cover all his chores when he can't do them, because he's always out of the home doing his community service. They are also embarrassed whenever any schoolmates start talking about their brother in a disparaging way, and worry that their own reputations might suffer because of his behaviour. Even the youngest who idolizes him is now asking why he does things like that and he only responds "I don't know, please don't copy me." It's very sad because there doesn't seem to be any rhyme nor reason why one child of four, who were raised by the same parents in a structured but very loving home, behaves so differently.

By law you can't throw a 17 year old out. I don't think that does any good anyway. I don't have any suggestions but my heart goes out to your DB and his family.

This is so sad. I don't think throwing him out is going to help much. Hopefully, they can just keep supporting him and trying to help him and maybe he will change.

I would love to chat with you. My son exhibits many of the same traits. He is now in the hospital learning some life skills type things. Many of these things are very personal, so if you want, email me at Stamphappywendy@yahoo.com I will tell you some of the things that my son exhibits, and if many are the same, I will point you in some directions that took us forever to find out on our own. I would love to help you with the info if it is the same. If not, I would understand. Leaving now for a barbeque, but will be home later this evening.

patti, they started with family counselling, but it was eventually changed to one on one sessions with DN, after being told that his behaviour appears to be completely separate and not the result of any family dynamic problems that could be the cause. So he is having intense private therapy to try and help.

Linda, DN did participate in sports and also worked as a volunteer assistant coach for an under 12 soccer team. But unfortunately he had to drop out of both because he now spends most of his after school time doing the community service hours.

Jodi and Cheryl, you both mentioned the possibility of a pysical problem. DN was hit accidentally by a wood oar while canoeing in Cub Scout camp at age 10 and knocked unconscious for a few minutes. But he was taken to the hospital and diagnosed with only a concussion. His bad behaviour didn't start until about 8 months later. When he was 12 he started getting bad headaches and they sent him for a Cat Scan, but it showed no abnormalities. He had another one two years ago because the headaches were causing some visual disturbances, but again, everything appeared normal. They have to accept that there is obviously no tumor responsible for his behaviour. I'm not trying to be funny here, but I seriously wonder if somehow that concussion jolted his brain just enough to kind of 'shake the wiring' up a bit, if you know what I mean.

lindasewandsew, the psychologist has concluded that DN doesn't appear to be acting out for attention from parents or peers. They claim that children seeking parental attention, feel neglected or unloved. DN has assured them he doesn't feel that way at all. They've also agreed he doesn't seem to be seeking attention from his peers because he acts out alone, never tells anyone, and is always concerned that his buddies will dump him as a friend if they find out he's 'done something else.' So they say he doesn't fit in with the typical 'trying to impress, and bragging' modus operandi either.

That is the problem. The experts cannot find an underlying subconcious reason, or any motive at all. When something is discovered, he never disputes it, but just becomes extremely ashamed and sad. They really thought that since lack of impulse control was an obvious problem, that therapy and medication to treat that, might be the answer. But DN still continues to act out at least once a month, regardless of treatment. Sadly, the police are now common visitors to DB's home.

It seems that his problems are truly not tied in with how he feels about his family or the kids who he chooses for his friends, because he loves his family and his friends are all good kids who don't get in trouble. But I worry he won't keep them long. Birds of a feather flock together and kids who don't get in trouble will eventually disassociate from him no matter how sweet, caring and thoughtful he is in all other aspects.

PickyShopper, not sure a CAT scan is enough to find something that might be more subtle. An MRI, perhaps with contrast might be beneficial in ruling out or finding more. My thinking is that if nobody can justify his behavior because of nature and nurture, and he himself is at a loss as to why he does these things, a true physical problem may be at work.

Jodi-

After re-reading this posting, it just dawned on me that a friend of mine is going thru the same situation here with their son. DH career military, mom-SAHM etc. In talking with her a few weeks ago, she said her son was much better in a real structure situation. DH apparently without realizing it was a very "demanding" father (military) without realizing the son could (did not) cope with rules and regs the way the military teaches it. He too stole things, misbehaves, etc. They too are going thru counseling but like somethings it does not seem to be working, but in this case it is medical related. He has had diabetes for many years and juvenile diabetes is more difficult to control than adult. He also has something like alizia syndrome. I know that is not the spelling and I don't know what it is as the boy, who is 19 and just barely graduated was sitting there. He is a angry child, and left home at 18, would not take his meds, put himself in the hospital, etc. Last week he seemed so different, I was hoping for the best as they are moving out of the area. He has NO friends, etc, but today when I saw him, he would not look at me or say HI.
Again like I said it does sound medical. Hope this helps a little. Let us know what is going on. Feel free to email me for support. I know you are doing the best you can.

I'm very sorry to hear that your family, including your DN, is going through this. I agree with the suggestion that he see a psychiatrist, so that the medical aspect can be analyzed further.
Sending good thoughts and prayers for the entire family.

((Hugs))
First, I would get the nephew to a doctor for an in-depth blood work up.
2. Are you sure there is no drug or alcohol involved here? (I didn't read all the responses so you may have already answered this)
3. Please read up on a condition called "Post Concussion Syndrome"- it may or may not pertain here-(my son has it after 2 concussions and it changed him dramatically)
4. Could your nephew have possibly experienced some sexual abuse as a child that perhaps NO ONE in the family yet knows about? There is either an anger issue or thrill seeking factor here-and sorry to say-both of those types of behaviors can be brought on after sexual abuse---Please understand that I am not accusing your family of this---they sound like wonderful parents--but maybe a babysitter, neighbor, etc?
5. Now, more than ever, he needs the UNCONDITIONAL LOVE of his family--but he must also know the behaviors are NOT accepted.

My thoughts are with your family.

They have one year to get him properly diagnosed.Then it is out of their hands.This is NOT the time to toss him out on his own. Forget the child psychologists. He is not a child. He is a young man. He needs a full medical work-up and diagnostic services of a mental health professional who is familiar with various borderline personality disorders,bi-polar disorder etc. He doesn't need a family therapist, he needs to be able to talk to a therapist who will respect his privacy and help HIM manage HIS problem. Because the day he turns 18 it will be his problem and it will not magically go away.

Anti-depressants should NEVER be given to someone who has impulse control issues. They may be helpful when given as part of a med cocktail but never alone.

Sometimes it takes years to find the right combination of meds that will work with the fewest side effects. Our jails are full of people like this who would be productive members of society but for the lack of proper mental health care.

Here is a link that might be useful: NAMI

If the parents are starting to think about throwing your nephew out, they need to share that with their son's counselor. It sounds like maybe they need additional guidance and support themselves. They're working hard to help their son, and they will be more effective if they're feeling confident that their needs are being met, too. It must be so stressful to have a child headed down the wrong road, when you have no idea how to help him.

Interesting about that head injury. Maybe it has something to do with his behavior. Then again, there are kids who seem to get a rush from conning adults. When they succeed, they feel powerful. I would call stealing and lying a form of thrill seeking. I second the suggestion that you read that book by Stanton Samenow, and pass it on to the parents.

Best wishes to your brother and his family.

The problem we correspondents have is that we are not aware of all the circumstances and nuances involved. Therefore, its easy to give bad advice. With that in mind, I suggest a few possibilities.

o He has a group of 'bad' friends - maybe a secret gang - that are encouraging bad behavior. I see a thread of anti-social against the public.

o He needs a job, not one that ties him down, but one that would generate his pocket money. Time spent on the job is less time to annoy the public. If this job was physical enough, he'd enjoy resting and sleeping more. Earning some of his own money will enhance his self-worth.

o It seems that his hormones kicked in when he passed age 10 and he has not matured emotionally enough to stay out of trouble. Is he into any kind of sports like football? If so, enroll him in a summer program to shape and improve his game. Does he play golf? If so, Dad and Son should golf together.

o Would he have any interest in an adventure tour group? For example, a bicycle and camping tour. There are businesses that organize and guide bicycle tours of the west's beauty spots. Typically, the group bicycles 50 to 100 miles pre day between campsites. The tour staff makes and breaks the camps and one van (sag wagon) follows the group some time after they depart on tour.

Has he ever been tested for Aspergers? A lot of the things you are saying sound similar to some things that my son deals with with his disability. There are all different degrees of Aspergers....

I am not by any means saying he has it.... and I am not a doctor, but wish I would have known some of the things then that I know now. His moods and behaviors were really evident at about the same age you mentioned above.

As I said, if you ever want to talk about what I have studied up on about this disability, let me know. If he would happen to have what my son has, then I guess I would not be able to direct you as it looks like you are in Canada if I am correct.

I have just done so much research to get my son help and thought it would help you.

Hi all, again, thank you so much for your concern and responses.
wendy, thank you for offering to connect with me by email, but I guess I won't need to. DN has been through the gamut of psychological/neurological testing and more than one doctor has definitely ruled out the following:

- Austism
- Aspergers Syndrome
- Attention Deficit Disorder
- Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder
- Obsessive Compulsive Disorder
- Tourette Syndrome (he has occasional facial tics)
- Anxiety Disorder
- Depression
- BiPolar Disorder
- victim of child abuse or sexual molestation
- various Personality Disorders (including those dealing with rage, narcissism, thrill seeking, attention seeking)
- substance abuse

They've said DN does not fulfill the criteria associated with any of the above. He does well in school, has no problem focusing, communicating, bonding with people or showing affection, is neither shy nor extroverted, is not awkward socially, has no issues with rage or temper, is neither submissive nor domineering, etc. Although he has had girlfriends and has never shown signs of confusion or struggle with sexual orientation, his parents had a frank talk with DN about that, assuring him he was loved unconditionally no matter what. They just thought there might be something major that DN is struggling with. DN assured them he has nothing against homosexuality, but he is completely heterosexual.

Recently a school pyschologist was called in to talk with DN and his teachers, to see if any light could be shed on the problems he's having. I talked to my brother again last night and got him to email me a copy of the report.
"DN is deemed to be a good student both academically and socially. He is well integrated with his peers and is respectful to both staff and classmates. DN is helpful, co-operative, and takes criticism graciously. He participates eagerly in class discussions and interacts well with others. He has a pleasant temperament and exhibits a normal self esteem. DN is overall a very kind and considerate young man who appears to be a well adjusted, well liked student."

The only 'negative' was this. "DN does well in school and gets good grades. However he is a very bright student and has the capability for outstanding academic achievement if he worked to his full potential. There was one occasion where he was blamed for a theft of art supplies that he didn't do, (real culprit later confessed) but he did not speak up for himself and proclaim his innocence, perhaps because he felt he wouldn't be believed, due to his past indisgressions. When asked why he did not dispute the accusation, student replied "Because I wasn't asked if I did it, I was told that I did it, so I didn't think there was any point trying to deny it." This incident demonstrates an apathetic attitude not previously displayed."

So they say he is a good student who is apparently very kind and considerate. (Obviously he is considerate of people he knows personally, but cannot understand that stealing from a store or destroying a farmer's bale of hay are not only crimes, but acts of unkindness and extremely INconsiderate).

The therapists and his doctor only know for certain that he has a major lack of impulse control problem, and that the standard therapy and medication protocol has so far been unsuccessful. They say it is best treated if the underlying cause can be discovered, but so far they are totally stumped as to what that is, since he has no known medical condition and seems to be a bright, happy child in every way, (until he does something).

They have DN scheduled for an appointment with a psychiatrist for June 5th. Although 2 Cat Scans, complete physicals with bloodwork and many counselling sessions have not been helpful, I will ask DB to implore this doctor to run an M.R.I., since DN has never had one before. Hopefully he will be able to help DN help himself. I'll post a followup and title it "Udate on DN's psychiatric appt." for those of you who have kindly responded with your suggestions and concern.

I agree with Wildchild...but then, I usually do. I wouldn't kick him out of the house and I wouldn't put him on anti depressants. I'd also look at food allergies, but I agree...he needs a therapist.

I know you feel you know your DB very well, and I do believe they are loving parents.
But...you, and we, don't live in their home. You don't know the daily interaction between DN and his parents.

But, you did say...
The only 'negative' was this. "DN does well in school and gets good grades. However he is a very bright student and has the capability for outstanding academic achievement if he worked to his full potential.

Military parents, child not being the absolute best he can.
That's a heavy load for a child. Like, he's okay, but not good enough...grades ok, but not good enough.
It's enough to act out..."see, I could and can be worse..accept me for who I am".

All these doctors, testing, medications...a lot of effort being put into seeing why he isn't good enough for them.

Just a thought .

Good point Monica. Another reason I am opposed to the psychologists who work to help the parents with "their" problem child rather than a therapist who will work primarily with the young man to work on "his" problems. He is not going to speak freely to someone who is trying to help the parents "fix" him.

No offense to the good ones I am sure are out there but my experience with school psychologists are that many have an agenda based on the baggage they bring with them to the table based on their own crappy childhoods, whether real or imagined. I say this having been through a bunch of carp with them when my DS suffered through an extreme period of OCD during junior high. We were very fortunate to find an excellent child therapist for him in private practice who as far as I am concerned saved his life.

monica, I just wanted to clarify that when I referred to that paragraph in the school report as being the only possible negative comment, I meant that other than their opinion that considering his intellect, DN is an underachiever, pretty much everything else was positive and seemed to indicate he is a well liked and congenial student. However, I have to assure you that being labeled as not working up to his academic potential is truly not a big issue with DN or DSIL, because of their own school experiences.

My DB has a genius I.Q., but never felt motivated in school and never did exceedingly well. His pet peeve was the constant criticism he himself received as a student about not working up to his so called academic potential.
He joined the Armed Forces at 22 and became a Major at 40, so he achieved a great deal once he found something he had a true passion for. DSIL suffers from Dyslexia and struggled through school with great difficulty and did not attend college. She just thanks her lucky stars that none of her own kids have it and is happy they do well, period. Neither has a big issue with the fact that the school thinks their son could be a top honour student if he tried, because DN has above average marks which satisfy his parents. DN is good enough for THEM, even if he does not meet the hopeful expectations of his teachers.

I know this will sound like I am just making assumptions and acting defensive of my brother, but he truly is not at all the strictly regimented, inflexible stereotype we might have of a military officer. (DSIL was only enlisted before they married). Yes there are expectations for chores and curfews, but none are unreasonable. In fact, I do have 2 siblings that I feel are excessively rigid in their parenting and place far too much emphasis on how many accolades their children accumulate in school and sports, but the DB I am writing about is not one of them.

Many friends and family have spent enough time with them to see the family dynamics. One sister lived with them for 6 months while receiving cancer treatment. The kids all have a good relationship with their parents, and we know there are no unrealistic expectations placed on them. I know as parents we tend to think that troubled kids must be the result of something awry in the relationship between parent and child, but I do not believe that is necessarily always the case.

Actually, the only reason for mentioning my DB being military was because despite DN always making friends easily with each new move, and never expressing that he really misses those he left behind, I have wondered if the constant moving every three years may have affected him more than he knows. Perhaps there is an underlying resentment about having to give up friendships, that could be affecting him without him realizing it. I am really trying to think of anything that could explain things. Hopefully the appointment with the new psychiatrist in a few weeks will make some headway.

Hello again pickyshopper,

I didn't make a reply when I first read your unsettling story yesterday, for I was troubled and felt that I had no suggestion to make, whether useful or otherwise.

I've thought several times of your in-laws' and your nephew's situation since then. I feel for what must be their major frustration - and yours, as well - in this situation.

Several years ago my daughter was involved with an agency dealing with folks (mostly children) who wet the bed. As we know, that issue can be frustrating to both parents and children. Their success rate was something like 90 - 95%, she said ... using diet therapy.

While there's much more of a disconnect between what we eat and occasional stealing, disrupting and being a general PITA from a bodily-function issue like wetting the bed ... I have a slight feeling of question whether a body-mind-spirit connection might be involved here, far-fetched as that may seem.

If you feel it appropriate, perhaps let your nephew know of the concerns expressed in this thread, with the hopes and prayers that he, along with the behavioural specialists and his family, may find their way through this jungle to a more integrated and satisfactory way of life for him.

And that right soon ... for when he passes his eighteenth birthday, the consequences of the actions that he's been pursuing will change drastically.

(((((Nephew, family ... and pickyshopper))))).

ole joyful

I will keep you all in my special thoughts. I am glad someone has already ruled that out for him. I had never even heard of the word before they told us that is what our son had. My husband had known it, due to him working in higher education. Just hoping that there are answers soon. Just keep up with the unconditional love and rules. I am so sorry this is happening to your family.

After reading all the reports and comments, it appears this kid is smart enough, smart enough to be bored. It is puzzling, though, that his behavor and demeanor at school is ok, but off the mark in certain situations. Is he manipulating his parents? Punishing them for some unknown item he is harboring against them? Maybe he thinks they are 'stupid' and will continue to play their game of never ending medical tests.

Maybe it would be a good thing to get him involved with a community activity such as "habitat for humanity" or growing food for the hungry.

The other possibility is that he has gotten by with anti-social behavor for so long that threatened repercussions has no effect and will not have effect until something major happens to him like a jail term.

I pity the poor boy if he is truly a kleptomaniac: compulsion to take things. This requires a long and expensive treatment program and the outcome is not assured.

Now here's the kicker: Does He have access to the internet and has he discovered this forum??? He could be reading all these posts including the original one made by his parent.

The young man needs to learn that this is his problem. Not any one else's - his.

And the consequences can well be dire. That he'll have to pay ... all on his own.

Soon, if he continues with several of these activities, he will receive a criminal charge, which it will be very difficult for him to beat.

Found guilty, he will have some serious short-trerm consequences, in terms of increasing levels of fines ... and frequently, time in jail.

After he thinks that he may have "paid his debt to society", by having paid the fine ... or done the time ... he'll find out that some other serious consequences follow ... and persist.

Some kinds of employment absolutely will not be available to him, especially ones dealing with financial matters of any kind of major responsibility and a wide variety of other types of employment involving heavy responsibilities.

Carrying a criminal record, he'll find that those doors will be absolutely closed to him, if not for the rest of his life, at least for a large number of years of blemish-free living. Doors which offer an above-average level of compensation.

He may think that unfair ... but that'll be the way that the ball bounces. Not for just a short time - but for many long years ... possibly the rest of his life.

He'd better start right now, keeping his nose absolutely clean.

It may appear to him that he can continue with his current ways ...

... but if he does, he'll have at least 20 years or so to wish that he had done better.

But it'll be too late to do anything about it ... at least, over the short term. Possibly for the rest of his life ... depending on the rules in his local area.

I highly recommend that, if he has not done so, he do a careful investigation of the prices that he may have to pay if he continues his present course.

Is he unable to choose to follow a different path, without any slips?

The price may be very high.

Sorry to offer such a barren prospect for his potential future, if he proves unable to make major immediate changes in his lifestyle.

Good wishes for his being able to get himself straightened out ... especially with regard to the activities which will result in a criminal record if found guilty ... soon.

ole joyful

hmm...I read most of the replies quickly, but didn't notice much mention of his friends.
Does he have many friends?
Any really close friends that he spends time with regularly? What are his friends like? Are they also doing similar things and getting into trouble?

Does he have a girlfriend?
Has he ever had one?
Does he date?
I'm wondering it if could maybe be he has sexuality issues. Has that ever been discussed?

Sue

I keep coming back and reading this. I believe the problem lies between the DN and his DF.

From the beginning the parents have looked to professionals to "cure" this. That hasn't worked. If the DN and the DF would sit down , just the two of them and have a serious talk, beginning with DF asking this question: "Why do you hate me?"

DN will no doubt say he doesn't hate him. Dad should then ask: "Then why do you keep hurting me?"

Sounds simplistic I know, but it would open a whole new way of communication "man-to-man".

Do you think your DB would/could do that?

It is worth a shot; nothing else has worked.

Sue

Kicking him out would be the worst thing they could do.
And besides, you can't legally kick out your 17 yr old kid.
Perhaps he is getting something out of all the medical attention he is getting,
all the tests and proceedures and counseling sessions.
It sounds like this is a pretty well managed family, I wonder too if he is doing these things as a way of saying,
look, I can do things that you have no control over.
Everyone on the outside and the parents themselves, may think they are giving him a lot of attention,
but maybe he doesn't.
He sure is getting alot of attention from a whole lot of people over his behavior tho.
And I would give a whole lot of thought to Monica's comments!

jenni, monica did say that a whole lot of effort is being put into seeing "why he's not good enough for them." But nowhere have I ever indicated that DN is not got enough for the family. They cherish him and he knows it. DN has a very close relationship with both parents and enjoys spending one on one time with each as well. He and DB regularly go camping, hunting and fishing together and he and DSIL both enjoy sailing together (DB gets seasick), none of which are enforced time with the folks, but something he enjoys doing. It is very evident that he loves both parents, from his words, their words, and also his therapist's opinion. Anyone who sees them can tell DN is not faking that he loves his parents, but as I stated on an earlier post, I do believe he may possibly be unconsciously harboring some anger about his father's career, because it necessitated moving every three years while he was growing up. No one has commented on whether they think I could be onto something about that.

As for the thought that maybe he's somehow, perhaps unconsciously enjoying the attention he gets from the medical appointments or family discussions, well none of us can really know that for sure. He certainly doesn't act as though he enjoys it though, because he is very eager to just get help with his impulse control and "be normal again" in his own words. He feels ashamed that he can't seem to control his actions and just desperately wants to get a handle on things. Usually people who enjoy attention seem to bask in the drama, whereas he becomes very uncomfortable. Supposedly the psychiatrist he's seeing June 5th has a really great reputation, so we're hoping he'll be able to unearth something that no one's thought of. I'll for sure repost to let you all know, because I appreciate everyone's input and know you're all trying to think of anything that could help explain this.

My neighbors were both career Navy. They had been in the military almost 30 years when they moved here. They had two kids, both teens at the time. I cannot even begin to tell you the problems they had with those kids. They were both kicked out of high school and continuation school. They were into drugs and every other bad thing imaginable.
The parents both retired and things got a whole lot better for the kids.
Both of the kids say that they have so much resentment towards their parents for moving them all over the world every three years. They felt they never belonged anywhere and about the time they would establish themselves and make friends it was time to move again.
I'm certainly not saying that being in the military makes a bad life for all kids,
but for these it sure did and they all will tell you that.
So your thoughts on the military lifestyle may very well be warranted.

I don't have much to suggest, but I just wanted to say that sometimes I see wonderful parents with wonderful home lives who have trouble with one of their kids. These are people I know well, they are doing everything "right", but they have a kid who gets in trouble for no apparent reason.

I haven't had any trouble at all with my kids, they are great, but I know people who are better parents than me who have struggles raising their kids. I don't know why their kid has problems and mine don't. So I hope your brother and your sister-in-law won't beat themselves up too much over these issues. As parents, if we are doing the best we can, then we can't take too much blame for our kids' faults, and we can't take too much credit for their successes, either. At some point, kids have choices to make. I guarantee you there are kids with much worse parents than your nephew and much worse homes who are doing fine.

My only constructive suggestion is that I truly believe intense exercise makes a difference - something that really tires them out like cross country distance running or swimming. I think it levels out those hormones in boys and stimulates them to produce more serotonin in their brains.

Your brother and his wife sound like wonderful people. I wish all your family the best.

Having just read this through, my first impression is that an mri needs to be taken asp, and looked at by a very good neurologist who is an expert in head injuries and their aftermath. And I see that this is going to be done soon. The fact that his problems started after the blow to the head speaks volumes, I would think. A friend had to divorce her husband after his personality changed drastically after a head injury. Of course I'm not suggesting his family "divorce" the boy, I'm just recognizing that head injuries can affect behavior. Nothing else really makes much sense. Has anyone been able to have a heart-to-heart with his friends? How well do the parents know the friends? I feel for the family and hope something is finally helpful.

We're retired military and were very fortunate not to move all the time. However it is very common for there to be underlying resentment by the children in military families of having to move around. It takes time to feel comfortable in a new community, make friends and get involved. Just when they feel comfortable, they have to start over. They don't have childhood friends they grew up with, haven't gone to the same church all those years, haven't moved from one group to another as they got older like in sports. They don't have the childhood most of us think of as the norm.
At times this produces an insecurity as they did not feel stability in their lives. Has anyone asked him what takes place right before he does these things on each incident? Has anyone asked him what he's thinking when he does them and what he thinks afterwards? At his age, he probably is saying what he thinks they want him to say. Ask him if there's someone he feels he can really open up to outside his family.
In the military you may get lucky and get a good doctor but not very often. Good doctors don't want that low pay when they can make a lot more in civilian life. If they are using Tricare, they still have it dictated as to what doctors they can see on a list for Tricare to cover the costs. If so, see if there's some way he can go to a different doctor and get the MRI done by a good neurologist as has been suggested. Obviously something is lacking or medically causing this imbalance in his life.
The family has observed the home situation but all of you are accustomed to your bother and SIL's habits and ways. It may be an "outsider" would see things you may overlook.
You must love him dearly and I do hope he finds some answers. Please do not tell him of the posts here as was suggested. No one likes their problems discussed with strangers and doing so on a forum will not boost his self esteem.
Keeping you in my thoughts.
Lynn

IMHO, absolutely I would NOT have him look at these posts.

And yes you can kick out a minor after an emancipation, course that takes a court action and may well take the year anyway so whether it's worth the cost or not is questionable.

A friend had a problem child and there too no explanation. I still think he was (and possibly the situation here) that 1) he's bored, possibly lonely; 2) possibly more intelligent than realized and not being adequately challenged; 3) has problems making/keeping friends; 4) he does get attention afterward, and perhaps there is a need for attention from boredom or loneliness.

For Mickey they wound up getting him into the military service. Talk about a turnaround! He cleaned up his act, loved the military and was decorated for many things, including anti-terrorist activities. But that's him and he's different so back to the topic and subject here.

The comment that he didn't fight the allegation when he was innocent showed a pragmatic side. Pick your battles, so to speak. That showed me a rational, logical mind at work thinking about what will work and what won't and weighing out the options each way. But I'm not a pro and it's just an observation from the sidelines.

I wonder if he's hesitant to get close to friends with the changes. After being uprooted and losing friends, it's easy to see someone think it better not to get too close that to go through the pain of losing friends. And I wonder if there's any hobby or intense interests he has or to get him involved in. He seems like a creative type, often this type of reaction is in a creative type. He likely has much talent available and possibly untapped.

I wouldn't kick him out at least not at this point. I would test the waters to see what his thoughts are on military though.

Personally, I don't think threats will do anything. I think the father/son conversation could be a good idea. Is he close to anyone else he'd feel comfortable confiding in who could talk to him a bit and see what he says. I'm not totally sure talk will do a lot but it's always worth a try. I'd like to see him find a hobby or interest with a future that he could dive into and keep his busy, interested, happy and productive.

No remedies, I'm not a pro. Just a few thoughts and ideas for what they're worth. Here's hoping for the best for all involved.

In response to the most recent posters, don't worry, DN is not aware I've turned to my forum friends to discuss him, because it could be construed on his part that I think he's crazy or a really bad kid, neither of which is true. I simply knew I could rely on people here to throw in a variety of opinions that might be helpful.

jenni, you mentioned that when your neighbours both retired from the military, things got a whole lot better for their kids. DSIL left the military before they married, and unfortunately, DB's choice to retire 3 years ago hasn't made any difference in his son's behaviour.

I got something wrong when I posted previously that DN stole some Ipods and was selling them in the schoolyard. DB advised me that DN stole 2 Ipods, but he didn't sell them in the schoolyard, he just gave them away. It was discovered because one of the parents of those kids knew their child couldn't afford a new Ipod. DB also mentioned that DN never seems to use anything he steals, and that is often how they find out. If it's a baseball bat, they'll notice the new bat sitting in his room, but it's never been used. Sometimes DSIL has simply found an unopened package of something in his trash basket. So he isn't stealing anything he truly wants.

pfllh, DN was seen by a neurologist and had his Cat Scan done 2 years ago in a top notch hospital, after DB left the military. However I have suggested to my brother to push for an M.R.I. when his son sees the new psychiatrist in a few weeks, because he's never had one of those before. You asked if anyone has ever asked DN what he is thinking right before, during and after he does something. Both his parents and his therapist have asked that more than once.

DN responds that absolutely nothing unusual to his knowledge happens before an incident, and he doesn't premeditate anything. When I say he doesn't premeditate, I mean in cases of theft, that he has never stolen from anywhere unless he was in the store already, legitimately purchasing something. For example, he was in Walmart last month to buy himself some sneakers, which he paid for, but he pocketed a pack of markers before he left the store.

If it is property destruction, he doesn't plan things ahead of time either. He was walking by a farmer's field one day and spotted a bale of hay near the fence and on the spur of the moment decided to dismantle it. As for during the act, DN claims he never has any feelings at all at the time. According to him, there is no anxiety, thrill or fear happening in his mind at the time he's doing something. He believes he must be subconsciously blocking out any feelings at that time in order to steal or vandalize something, because that is something he would never chose to do normally.

DN says that afterwards he experiences immense guilt about the fact that once again he did something bad. But he says he never confesses on his own because he's so ashamed that he just hopes he won't be found out. But when he is caught, he freely admits what he did, and doesn't protest about the consequences. His therapist told DB that it's a good sign that DN is completely non aggressive in nature, and is so tortured by his own behaviour, because that is a good indication he indeed has a very strong conscience. But something is definitely causing it to falter and she is very hopeful that the psychiatrist she recommended will be able to offer more insight.

I doubt the MRI will find anything, but they have to do that to rule things out. I think if there was a biological reason for these behaviours, they would show up in school also.

Is there any kind of test that could be given by a psychiatrist to test for kleptomania? Or does that always involve a thrill? You can tell how badly we all want to help your DN! He sounds like a sweet boy, with this problem that no one can figure out. Does he ever tell his parents that he'd like to stop? (Sorry if you mentioned that; I can't remember all that I read yesterday.)

Some of my random thoughts:

***I think there is a physical/medical cause, based on the behavior starting soon after the head injury and that therapists can't figure it out.

***Military bases are full of hazardous, radioactive, and toxic waste. Some of them are full-fledged Superfund sites requiring years of clean-up. Has anyone looked into the chemicals this young man may have been exposed to over the past ten years? (I realize that the other family members don't exhibit the same behavior, but everyone is affected differently. Not everyone who smokes gets cancer, IYKWIM.)

***Is he expected to join the military when he's old enough? Would they take him if he has a criminal record? If not, and he doesn't want to join (but doesn't want to disappoint his parents), committing "victimless" crimes could be his way of getting out of enlisting. Especially since his behavior has "no cause" and "he can't help it."

And, my final random thought:

When asked why he did not dispute the accusation, student replied "Because I wasn't asked if I did it, I was told that I did it, so I didn't think there was any point trying to deny it."
***Has he been wrongly accused in the past, especially when the behavior started? His reasoning may be that if he's going to get accused of something, he may as well be doing it. I used to know a grown man whose wife constantly accused him of fooling around. He wasn't at the time, but eventually figured "What the heck? If I'm going to be accused of it, I might as well do it."

Anyway, these thoughts are all just my opinion and my attempt to respond with something that hasn't already been said. (And I agree that kicking him out won't do any good.)

Seems he has seen a lot of doctors, been in counseling, and counselors have reported back to the parents. All efforts have been focused on the child, on the child being the sole source. Looking for medical causes, rather than at parent/child dynamics.
In my experience, family counseling is used. Have the parents been in counseling with the child? If not...were they asked?

sjerin, I'm sure there's no specific test about kleptomania, but since it involves impulse (or lack thereof) control, they've tried to figure out why. DN isn't ADHD and doesn't have O.C.D., either of which can sometimes manifest with impulse control problems. Yes, he always tells his parents that he's ashamed of this behaviour and doesn't understand why he does it. I'm thankful you are all so generous with your time in posting to give your insight!

Uxorial, no DN doesn't want to join the military, he's always had his heart set on being a chef and has already taken a few cooking classes with his part time job money. His parents have no problem with that and are encouraging his love of cooking. As far as him ever being accused of something he didn't do, well not to anyone's knowledge as he's never mentioned it. He later told his parents that he just didn't speak up to defend himself for that one incident at the school because even if he could prove he didn't do it, it wouldn't exonerate him of the things he really had done anyway.

monica, I'm not positive if I mentioned it in any of my posts, but yes, they actually had a fair bit of family counselling. In two cities where they lived, after advising DN's doctor about his sudden behavioural change, family counselling was the first thing tried. But in both cases it was eventually recommended that it be switched to private sessions for DN with a behavioural therapist when it was ascertained that nothing was abnormal in the family dynamics. As part of the family counselling they had discussions with everyone together, and everyone separately. Two different counsellors concluded that the family dynamics were healthy because the parents have a happy marriage, there is no abnormal sibling rivalry, and all the kids (including DN) say they have a good relationship with their parents. So it wasn't that anyone was trying to make DN the problem, they just couldn't find any reason to ask the family to continue group counselling and wanted to dedicate their full focus to helping DN.

I'm no doctor but if the family dynamics are healthy, he's worked one on one with a behavioral therapist, and he himself says he doesn't know why he does these things, doesn't learn from his mistakes or the consequences,etc. it strongly points to some kind of chemical imbalance that is affecting his impulse "control center" for lack of a better term.

You mention doctors and therapists but has he ever been evaluated by a Doctor of Psychiatry who has a reputation for dealing with various personality disorders?

I too am curious about his social life. You've mentioned school,part-time jobs,cooking classes and family.What about the normal teen stuff? His own time? The movies, the dates whether single or group? Does he drive? Does he have friends to hang around with? Are there girls around even if not a special one yet? Just what social outlets does he have? What are his interests besides cooking? I see a lot of positives here but they all appear to be rather structured.

Does he express his individuality with dress or hair etc. Is he allowed to? Does he have interests that he found on his own outside of school or structured sports? Robotics, computers,anime,cars,bikes,Rocky Horror, Heavy Metal,Rock-A-Billy, the arts? There's got to be something more than work, school and shoplifting/vandalizing.

Does your brother and his wife know you are asking for advice?
Would they follow any advice given here?

From what I read your nephew is certainly an enigma.
Nothing is wrong with him but he has all these problems.
Any and everything brought up here has already been explored. What else could there be other than he chooses to do what he does?

If suggestions are truly wanted and heeded, I would recommend an alternative school for your nephew; a boarding school or a school for youth with behavioral problems.

In fact, I'm surprised your brother and his wife haven't considered military school for their son, given their background.

Go

wildchild, it sure does seem as though there must be some chemical imbalance that could explain DN's inability to ignore a sudden impulse, but they're frustrated because so far no combination of therapy and medication has been successful. No, DN has never been seen by an actual psychiatrist. He has seen a school psychologist, a regular psychologist and is on his third therapist (only because they were relocated to different cities). He did see a neurologist, but that doctor only evaluated him for his Cat Scan, it wasn't a psychological evaluation. So they are really looking forward to DN seeing the psychiatrist in a few weeks.

DN seems to have a pretty normal social life. When he isn't grounded, his friends come over or he goes to one of their houses. They do the normal teenage stuff, movies, bowling, etc. He's between girlfriends right now. Some of his hobbies are playing guitar and writing music, woodworking and skateboarding. He has a pierced eyebrow and likes to wear funky suspenders, so I guess that would qualify for how he expresses himself?

lori, yes my DB and DSIL know I'm asking my 'forum friends.' I've been keeping in touch with him regularly so I could ask about specific questions many of you have posed, since I didn't know the answers to all of them. I sincerely hope no one felt slighted after making a thoughtful suggestion, if I had to explain that it had already been examined and eliminated as a possibility. It's just that pretty much everything that has been brought to the table so far has already been explored except for the advice by a few posters that DB push for an M.R.I. (which DN has never had) just to rule out anything medical that may have been missed. DB and DSIL are basically all out of energy trying to figure this out and the appointment with the psychiatrist on June 5th can't come soon enough as far as they're concerned.

You mentioned that since everyting seems to have been explored, what else could there be other than that DN is just choosing to do what he does. Believe me, DB has confided to me that at this point he doesn't know which he fears more...that there might really be something physiological wrong in DN's brain that is causing this behaviour, or that the psychiatrist will conclude DN is just some kind of master manipulator who by all appearances is a kind, loving son, brother and friend, but gets a weird kick out of acting deviant once in a while and pulling the wool over everyone's eyes by acting so contrite and ashamed afterwards!

DB hasn't tried to put his son into military school because DN is well liked at his current school and gets good grades. He's already been to 5 different schools in as many cities, so they don't want to enforce another change unless it's the last hope. As well, DB feels that typically, military schols are best suited for young people who have problems with aggression or defiance, in other words, kids, who need a major attitude adjustment. DN is amiable, respectful, and kindhearted, so they actually don't want is attitude adjusted, just his behaviour.

Your suggestion for some kind of alternative school or behavioural modification school is a good one and that will most likely be DB's choice of action, pending the psychiatrist's assessment. I will for sure let you all know what the psychiatrist concludes, because everyone has been so thoughtful in bringing forth anything they felt might be of help.

hi picky shopper,

Put him on a horse.

I'm serious. He wants an adrenaline rush. He's doing sneaky things for the thrill.

Riding lessons will provide a thrill, something new, something slightly scary. May not be enough for him long term...find him something exciting...

xoxo
duck