Lets assume I cannot get the advice of a local realtor (long story but I cannot)

I read this because I was wondering about my own situation, since I'm on a "lot of land", too. But it just goes to show you that things are always relative, since what I mean by a lot of land is in excess of 100 acres.....

However, the principle may still be same: I don't think anyone gets 200% return on fix-ups like you're talking about. For kitchens (which I think is the most lucrative) I think you can only expect 85-90% back, plus perhaps a faster sale, and more of your asking price.

Perhaps you should stick to ordinary fixups, maybe redoing the laminate and painting the dark cabs. Unless you were changing out the appliances (assuming they are on par with the laminate and cabs in style and desiarability) I think putting in fancier cabs and granite would be a waste and a big PITA for you. Better to save your reno-mojo for use on your own new place.

Molly~

Yeah I wouldn't consider 1/4 acre "a lot of land". I would perhaps consider it a large lot for your area, but "a lot of land" implied acres to me and is perhaps misleading. We have friends with an older home on 4 acres of land. The home itself is a 2100 sq ft. 40's ranch. They totally redid the kitchen, new cabinets, floors, and countertops and the house still remained unsold after a year on the market because people would compare that house to a house on a normal size lot instead of on acreage and the house was overpriced if you just compared house to house. The friends had put a premium on all the acreage that wasn't justified with the size and age of the home. The home finally became rental property.

I wouldn't totally remodel the kitchen. You're not going to recoup all the costs associated with it. Sell it with the existing kitchen and adjust the selling price accordingly.

A "lot of land" is relative, I guess. A 1/4 acre isn't big here. But the NE is different.

I would not add the den. By your own estimates, more than half of potential buyers would keep as is or tear down. Even those you would renovate may have a different vision.

If there are relatively easy and inexpensive kitchen and bath upgrades in keeping with the character of the home, that might make sense. But I hesitate to do a complete re-do.

If and when you find a home and are ready to sell, price the home to sell. Take the busier street, size, and condition into consideration when you price; the lot size will help a little as an offset.

Is there some reason you wouldn't do a teardown on THIS house? You want the neighboring community instead?

What is the land value on your property? This sounds like a perfect teardown to me. Nice lot with too-small, too-dated house on it.

Wait, Im in the NE... I have 10 acres. Where in the NE is 1/4 acre a lot of land? NYC?

From your email it sounds like there is only 1 realtor in town? You dont have to do any of the fixups you mentioned to your house as long as the house is priced right. If you dont care about getting the return on your repairs and your only reason for not wanting to do them is because someone else might rip them out, then why bother? Just price the house to sell. It will be shown with other homes in need of similar things. Thats how comparitive pricing works.

Yes we are outside NYC and this is considered a huge lot. Sure 100 miles away in the Catskills I could buy 100 acres for 20k or so the solicitations say but not in the suburbs where I live.

I am looking at houses up several price ranges and often find smaller lots or ones that seem that way because of the way the those houses sit on the lot. In my area there is very little that is comparable in terms of lot size and many people want to expand.

Its not acreage and perhaps I should have titled my post that way. Most houses are on 60 x 100 lots, mine is on 120 x 100 and the house is situated in such a way that you could expand it about another 35 x 30 feet and still have enough room for a pool. So essentially you could have a 4500 sq ft house or more in an area where 3000 ft is considered huge (an yes there is the income and a market for it in this community which is upscale). For those who live in areas where land exists, picture a 7000 sq ft house instead!Remember, buildable land does not exist here at all. Even if you wanted to tear things down, I live in a Town that is very strict with permits. It can be done, but only one house at a time

I do not want to stay for family reasons so have no desire to do construction and have a ton of small children. If I were going to stay I would blow out the back rather than tear down because the house has some nice period details and is all brick and in a style that is considered desireable int he community. It is a solidly built house with no major structural problems. Part of the reason I would not want to renovate the kitchen is if I cannot sell my house I would blow out the back and just live in it but I really HATE that idea

As it happens, the applicances are new or relatively new, purchased as each old one failed. They are not high end but are middle of the road, top of the line of ordinary appliances since I bought them for my use and I like the extras.

Housekeeping raised the point that was my reason for posing the question

"However, the principle may still be same: I don't think anyone gets 200% return on fix-ups like you're talking about. For kitchens (which I think is the most lucrative) I think you can only expect 85-90% back, plus perhaps a faster sale, and more of your asking price."

Isn't getting more of my asking price the same as getting a higher return for my kitchen renovation?

To throw out hypothetical numbers

First assumption, a house similar to mine with a small den and nice new kitchen (with middle of the road but nice appliances) but a worse upstairs, no master bath, main bath is hideous formica on a quieter, smaller lot was asking 629k having been reduced from 639. It sold for 609. Another slightly larger house but on a small lot recently sold for 600k (I would have paid more for that one but maybe they just wanted a quick sale who knows), they originally asked 649k. I could renovate my kitchen decently for about 20k (MIL just did a similar size one) including granite and nice maple cabinets. My floor and appliances are both fine. The den conversion would probably cost about 30k I am guessing since the porch is already there.

If I were to list my house without doing anything other than some painitng, based on those sales I would start at around 619 since I do have a master bath and the larger lot even if the buyer wants to just live there. I would probably end up getting 550-575 is my guess (in this area lowball offers are routine). So certainly not worth renovting but I am speculating

Thoughts?

If I were to do it based on there being no other buildable land or expandable land in my area I would probably ask more. For example there is new construction in my area (builder teardowns) in much worse locations than mine (really main street) but 3500 sq ft houses that recently sold for 900k and there are some on the market for 1.25 and more. So assuming it costs a homeowner about 400-500k in my area to build a McMansion, I am not sure asking 700 is that out of line. There are large older homes that have sold for well over 1m but those are on better streets and twice the size of mine although the lots are usually smaller

Saphire, you could probably hire an appraiser to do an appraisal on your house (in this area about $350). They will give you the value "as is" and the value it would be if you did the improvements you are talking about. Once you have those figures, it will be easy for you to figure out which one will work better for you.

Thanks for the suggestion but the way appraisals are done it really would not provide that concrete an answer, houses in the area are all old which makes them unique. I have a good friend who is an appraiser and he had no absolute opinin. Plus prices have gotten so high that condition takes a back seat to sq footage except on the extremes (Handyman specials and better than new renos)

Actually we took out a home equity less than a year ago. I was shocked at the appraisal price which was equal to what I would have listed it for. My home loan would have been fine with an appraisal 100k lower which is what I told them to appraise it for. I think prices have come down but since there are not that many sales, appraisals are still based on 2005 and 6 inflated numbers. Both of the houses I mentioned probably would have sold for 30k more back then

I asked about the land value. In one of your posts you say that you think you would ask MORE if you were basing it on land value. Isn't that your answer? Don't you have TWO buildable lots in an area already zoned for one single family house per 60 X 100?

Now, do you want to list it, or are there some builders/developers in the area you could contact for a direct sale w/out commission? (You will need legal advice.)

I'm kinda the Teardown Queen here, having sold our nicely maintained 1950s brick ranch on a quarter-acre to a nice young couple who tore it down. They wanted that neighborhood, that school district -- and a big lot! Our 2000 sq ft ranch became a 4000 sq ft three story *something*. (The style is not easily identified.)

I'd forget any "remodeling". I'm sure your house is nice, but it isn't "historic" and the value is in your land.

Doesn't sound to me like a reno would be a good idea -- Yes, there are lots of people who don't want to do a major kitchen redo, but there are those who will. And many of the ones who will would prefer a house that clearly 'needs' a kitchen update to one that just had one that wasn't exactly to their taste. Imagine you put in dark granite and light maple, but the buy really wants light granite and cherry? Your kitchen is too nice to rip out, but not what they want... And if there's a real market for tear-downs, expansions, or total re-dos then any money at all you put into the place will be a waste.

It doesn't sound like $600-650 houses are the most comparable to you if yours would likely go for $550-575... And why can't you discuss this with a real estate specialist in your area?

Chisue, it would not shock me if that happened here, although my house dates back to the 30s and is all brick. It is only one lot, not two, a builder could not subdivide. Plus, for a builder this would not make sense, not enough profit. However for a young couple who want to do their own thing and want a big house with land left over, this house would be perfect.

Sweeby

The reason I cannot ask a local broker is because it is a very small town where everyone knows everything. I need to do some additional minor construction work that does not inpact on the kitchen redo. I cannot call a broker in until I do it because if I end up not hiring that broker, they will make snide comments about my house. It happened to me more than once while I was looking. Since there are often local exclusives people use more than one broker. When the broker wanted me to see a house I had seen with somene else, she then says, oh did they manage to fix that leaky toilet, roof, sink, you fill in the blanks. So I cannot risk a disgruntled realtor saying, oh yes they had that horrible ___________, do you know if they fixed it when someone mentions my house. I have verbally spoken to people but they all want to come and see

The 600-650 houses are comparable, the lower priced houses do not have the same feel. Plus houses here are unique since they range in age from 1900-1960 so comparables are very difficult. People want different things

I agree they may not like my redo. When I was looking in 1991 I saw lots of stuff that was Mauve and formica and new. It made me want to run. I used to find that worse than older and in need of updating. However, if I were to redo, in this area people just like new and neutral which I would do as my taste is very neutral to begin with. Even in that context I see what you are saying someone may just hate maple as I do light colored oak (ironically my cabinets are dark oak and that is fine with me)

Something to think about

You said you "have a ton of small children." Do you really want to go through the stress of a remodel? I suggest you go over to the kitchen forum and read some of the posts and think about whether you want to go through all that. Especially when the work would not even be for your family's enjoyment. It is one thing to say "but when it is all done we will have a wonderful kitchen to all gather in and enjoy" and quite another to renovate only to sell.

"Mostly to make the house sell faster rather than to recoup any money. I would have to make back 200% to make it worth it to me to do it but if my house will just sit forever otherwise, I would."

In your shoes I would try to learn as much about the local real estate market, and what is selling in it. Are the houses that sell quickly ones with new kitchens? If not, a new kitchen might not bring a quick sale for you either.

I'm confused about lot size. You said the typical lot in your area was 60 X 100, and that your house is on 120 X 100. Are you certain this can't be subdivided? (Perhaps in your case the frontage is the 100-foot dimension?) Our DS's house in Chicago is built in the middle of a two lot parcel -- but it's still TWO lots were he to do a teardown.

If indeed your lot must remain intact as a single, oversized lot, what have similar parcels sold for? You don't want to talk to realtors, but could you talk to a couple of builders who have built following teardowns in the area?

Does your town have a historic district? A building review board? Was your house designed by a locally-lauded architect? Would anything make it difficult to obtain a teardown permit?

I don't mean to "argue" with you. If you know your city would never allow subdivision because you have asked, then you KNOW it and I'll go away quietly...(I'm gone. LOL)

Chisue

The lot is actually 80 in the front and fans out behind the house but is one lot, just deep. The house behind me was built by the same builder and when I went to the open house a few years ago the broker brought up his name (which of course I did not write down) so yes that may be worth something. Their house actually was Two lots and they had tons of interest but the neighbors would have attended the architectural review meeting in protest if they ahd tried to subdivide. Instead they blew out the back and made something really nice. However they front a much quieter street and bought in 2002 so hard to compare.

Another house that is down the road on the same type of street sold for 550 in 2005. The new owners tore it down and built a 4000 sq ft McMansion now appaised at 995 according to the town tax which they live in

Most of teh time houses are not torn down, just double in size. It is hard to compare the builder teardowns because there are not many and usually Two houses are put up in place of one. My house cannot be more than one house but it can be a pretty big house

This may or may not help but our experience was this:

We not only sold a 1950's ranch that became a teardown, we also bought one, albeit on an acre while the one we sold was on a quarter-acre. We intended to slightly enlarge and remodel the one we bought. If was quickly evident that it would be better to do a teardown; even our next door neighbor at the new location encouraged that and he is an appraiser.

I'm so glad to have an ALL-new, not partially-new house, with great insulation, wiring, plumbing, HVAC system -- and nine-foot ceilings and low-E glass, etc. Neighbors at our old location put plenty into enlarging their home but now cannot sell it for their costs because people can buy an all-new house the same size for the same money.

I can appreciate the problems of an ingrown city/suburb. We moved from one 15 miles north of Chicago to one 30 miles north. Both are built-out with only teardown lots available in the more desireable areas. This is part of why I think you may be underestimating your LAND value. It sounds to me as though someone would pay a lot for a lovely new home on your lot -- but maybe not so much for an expanded half-new home. Around here any buildable lot brings a minimum $500K; an old home on 1.5 acres in our neighborhood just went to a builder for $2M as a teardown. The builders know they will have an uphill fight to get city approval for their plans, but are still willing to go for it.

Chisue

Can you give me an idea of what the cost were v what they would have been. If you expanded v the teardown you did?

I know what you mean about the half new. Although my back neighbors house is stunning and he actually tried to stay true to the period, did brick all the way around the reno part, the one thing he could not fix because it is part of the house is that you walk into the stairs. I hate that about my house. Unless someone builds a portico, there is no fixing that. I have toyed with the idea of tearing it down myself and building a modular house on the lot but if I want to sell there would always be that stigma

Ah, there's part of the problem. When you build new there are some unexpected costs, but when you add on or remodel the "unexpected" lurks in every wall that gets opened up. For instance, when our teardown started, we'd hoped to save the hardwood flooring. Once the front wall was pulled away we found rot in sections of the floorplate (under the hardwood).

A teardown can be accomplished in a day with machinery. When you remodel everything has to be taken apart by hand. I would remodel extensively or add on only if the existing house is historic, a landmark, -- or is in California, with their peculiar real estate tax breaks.

As you saw with your neighbor's house, it can be difficult to "match" old with new. The disease we call "as long as we're doing this..." sets in. The new looks so nice that the old looks...old. Also, expectations about room sizes have changed. You can't expand a little pre-war bathroom to suit today's buyers' wishes for huge tubs, showers, water closets, etc. A house with three bedrooms usually has living area suitable for that many people. When you add more BRs and baths, suddenly the hallways, LR, DR and most of all the Kitchen are too small. The existing BRs have dinky closets. The MBR and its closets are small and maybe not ensuite with a large bath.

A not so visible biggie is the mechanicals -- wiring, plumbing, heating, A/C. We've been in our new house six years, and are only now having to call a repairman for anything (leaky faucets). Modern furnaces, air cleaners, flow-through humidifiers, central vacuum system, super insulation, tight windows -- there is so much that makes new house living easier and more comfortable.

I think if you ask realtors here on the forum they will say that absent the rare, historic home, an equivalent new house sells more easily and for more money.