Here is another thought.

It seems that most IntelliFlo threads on forums have now gone from "it's not worth it" to "time will tell". Honestly, this is the greatest testimony to the products initial success as those statements seem to indicate that the initial battle is a losing one. The crowd that tries to move people away from the product are now in the mode of saying "well now that you have it, good luck". The inconsistent attitudes are about the same as the arguments against the pump. They are ever changing.

I think the greatest obstacle to the success of this pump on a mass level is the industry itself, not the consumer and a tight wallet and not any perceived negative issues with the pump. Some companies are just going to get impatient with the product.

Here's a great example. A friend of mine in our area has been installing at a pace slower than me for about the past 18 months. We've been on the IntelliFlo learning curve together but my added years in the industry seem to make me the guy to go to for issues. He has now abandoned the VF due to its "issues" and only installs the VS. It's become about volume for him and not really about what's best for the customer. He's selling it as a saver to single speed and as long as he can get one in the yard, he has done the customer a favor. He has not provided the most savings for the money spent and certainly has not provided a seamless install as the VS is being put in without a controller.

This is not going to help this product as the owners are going to get fed up with going out and hitting buttons for different speeds. There are all kinds of these guys out there who have taken on the mode of installing for pure greed and not what is best for the owner or what may be best for this products success. If you embrace what we need to do these days in term of conserving resource and cash, you have to give this type of technology it's fair share of time to succeed.

There are fewer and fewer willing to take that time these days as time is money and call backs are free. As I've said, I have never had an issue with my pumps. The reason my buddy is going VS over VF in every job is callbacks. Another reason to install with a company that is committed to making it work for you.

The funny thing is that you would never get this type of discussion for any piece of pool equipment. This one has succeeded on the level that Jandy did to valves or controllers way back when. The Jandy valve was so odd and such a revolution to our industry when it came out, pretty much every multiport valve is now referred to as a Jandy. The same for the Aqualink controller. Nobody refers to their two-speed pump as the "insert name here" pump. It does not carry that worth.

IntelliFlo will be the name in variable speed for a long time. There are others out there but you never see them with their name. Can you give me the Jandy name for theirs? How about Hayward? They are making no impression on the industry because they are simply glorified two-speeds.

I believe I was told by Pentair that the pump sales are in the area of $180+ million annually compared to less than $10 million for Jandy. I think a $20 million investment is within reason and a return on that investment is very viable.

The main reason for any sketicism on this pump is a lack of proven field tested data by the manufacturer. If Pentair (or any other variable speed pool pump manufacturer) has such a large budget and this pump is in so many applications, you would question why they do not have any supporting data and case studies available to the public. Pentair is definately writing the spec to ensure get their pump required for many states. Writing government specs to get sales of your particular product is as american as apple pie and it works. Just look at ethanol, corn farmers have convinced the government to require this in fuel, despite its numberous disadvantages, which is not in the publics best interest. You can also find tons of pro ethanol write ups like this one here but facts are facts. Im not questioning the advantages of this pump in the correct application, you have convinced me of this through all of your posts, just the muddy information on it.

RG-

Thanks for sharing the paper. As the paper suggests, and I agree, the price of the product is high and the impleller is not very efficient. By the way, this paper was drafted by Pentair so this is their words not mine. This back-end deal with Edison was also an act of desperation to get the product out there rather than letting the product stand on it's own.

There is always a fine line between price and value when bringing a new product to market. The successful products you mention from Jandy had so much value associated with them that they could get more price as a result and the consumer didnt mind paying the extra money because of the convenience of the products.

The value that Pentair proposes is flawed in my opinion and misleading. The misleading part is the efficiency gains they claim. All their energy savings calculations are based on comparisons to one speed pumps, which is an apples to oranges comparison. A more accurate comparison would have included 2 speed pumps, but my guess is Pentair chose to ignore that comparison because the energy savings is not that significant to justify the heavy cost to the consumer for the variable speed technology. This is the first flaw in their value story.

The second flaw in their value story is the variable flow vs. variable speed value. They shot themselves in the foot on this one by creating confusion with the installers and the consumer. What is the point in hyping variable flow technology. What is the value in having the pump increase speed and power to overcome a change in system pressure? This is costing the owner money in energy consumption and masking a system problem that will go undetected longer because the pump is compensating for the problem. This pump behavior contradicts the energy savings claims by Pentair. The only value I see on the variable flow offering is the built in timer which is hard to justify the added cost to the consumer.

So now we are left with the variable speed offering which is a glorified 2 speed at about twice the cost. Here, the only value story is the 2 extra speeds, allowing the pump to replace multiple pumps or deliver different levels of comfort and effects in spa and water features. Is this worth the extra cost? Some will see this as added value, others will not due to the heavy price tag.

The Jandy products were no brainers and most successful products are. When there is value with a product, consumers instantly make the connection. When there is a cloud of confusion surrounding the value, consumers will not make the connection. From my experience in HVAC, when there is confusion at the installer level, the product is doomed. Pentair did not help themselves, in my opinion, by adding to this confusion, not only at the consumer level but also at the installer level. A flawed efficiency story combined with a flawed 2 tier product approach with the whole VS vs. VF thing does not spell success in my opinion.

I see this product as being evolutionary rather than revolutionary and only time will tell its success. The products you mention from Jandy were revolutionary and their success speaks for itself. If Pentair's annual sales for this product is truly $180M then I could be wrong here.......only time will tell.

"This back-end deal with Edison was also an act of desperation to get the product out there rather than letting the product stand on it's own"

I would disagree here as the offering for 2 speeds during 2007 was an equal opportunity to save by the consumer in terms of rebate money by Edison. Edison offered $200.00 rebates to the owner just as they did on the variables. And, the variables were not just IntelliFlo. Other companies had and still have their pump on the California state approved pump list. In this case, Pentair's is leading the way today so that lends credibility that the pump has been standing on its own.

"What is the point in hyping variable flow technology. What is the value in having the pump increase speed and power to overcome a change in system pressure?

2 parts. Keep in mind, we are looking at a true variable such as the 3.2 VF, not a multi-speed such as a two speed,VS 4x160, Hayward 6 speed or Jandy 8 speed that don't sense system head. #1. The number one request by consumers is "I want or need a specific flow for my system." They can set an rpm and guess with the others I just mentioned or set the flow to exactly with a variable pump. That saves money. Yes, you will ask "why do I need to be exact when I can set something close." It's the opposite you need to consider. #2. Those same pumps will continue to run at those higher speeds as the system head increases from a dirty filter. The variable will not, once system head hits the the preset level. It will slowly cut back flow to protect the filter from damage that an otherwise single speed pump will want to continually crush as it gets dirtier. This is very common and is very expensive to correct. Not sure where you live but our So Cal builders have done nothing but oversize for decades. I is very common to crush filter media with their oversized pump matches. Yes, the pump may ramp up a few rpm as system head increases but the performance is worth the few extra cents. Sweeps continue to work, water features flow and water stays clear. It is a minimal cost impact and is not long term increase in power to overcome pressure and will soon back off as the filter protect device kicks in.

"From my experience in HVAC, when there is confusion at the installer level, the product is doomed. Pentair did not help themselves, in my opinion, by adding to this confusion, not only at the consumer level but also at the installer level. A flawed efficiency story combined with a flawed 2 tier product approach with the whole VS vs. VF thing does not spell success in my opinion."

This one is the big mystery. Why did they roll out one and then another? You'd have to ask the product manager that one. Here is my opinion. We keep hearing we need field test numbers on the pump to justify what they say. I think that will come in a big way soon. The company is known for getting the products out there and doing final revisions based on what happens in the field. That is he only true test. I can also say that I had to document a lot of stuff and so did everyone else in the 2007 install program. We still document for other utilities like SDG&E so these numbers are out there and they will resurface when they get a large enough sampling. I don't think you can have an overall affect on the electric grid until time passes and then you can look at what was done. Keep in mind, utilities are mandated to cut back and they must report on how they did it. That can't happen in a short time.

People are sucking up hybrids now as they "are cheaper to run". That's bogus when you consider the long term costs of maintaining these cars. But, they are selling like mad. Only time will tell if it had an impact on the total picture.

OMG, I just sounded like you!

I'm sorry but it appears to me that your post is spamming for the Manufacturer the Utility Company.

I'm not going to knock the product because I've placed several dozen in service and truly feel that the direction of the industry will move this way.

However, I've had much better success with the 4x160 pump than the variable speed pump.
On infloor cleaning systems the pump outfoxes itself when going between zones and does weird stuff, the 4x160 keeps pumping at the designated RPM and exhibits no problems between the differing pressures that the zones offer.
I'm curious, how do you handle/program the pump on an infloor system?

On a bright note, I love the sound of this
quote" the goal is to reduce cost enough to achieve the price point of two speed pumping systems while delivering even greater efficiency "quote

See ya,
Kelly

I've been meaning to post this for a while and this seems as good a thread as any- we're running a 4x160 and the increase to our electric bill has surprisingly been insignificant. It's so small that we can't even quantify it. Being a family of 5 we do a lot of laundry and living in a climate where we get 100+ temps frequently the A/C runs a lot too. The pool pump isn't even a blip on the radar compared to those. Our PB only installs this pump on their jobs, so for us we didn't have to decide based on initial versus long-term costs. No one here talks much about the impact their pool has on their bills, it would be interesting to hear more reports from pool owners.

So if the problem in CA has been the builders installing oversized pumps, doesnt this just muddy the VF/VS savings even more after the consumer switches their old pumps? Its like pulling your bass boat with a peterbilt for 10 years then trading it for a ford ranger and being amazed by the fuel savings.

184m? Wow. Im not saying that's not true, I'm just surprised. I work for a distributor, as some of you know, and if the price to us was 1000.00, and it's not, but I can't say what it is, that would be 180k units.
Pentair, PNR on the stock exchange reported 3.4B in sales in the last 12 months, but that's all of Pentair, not just the water division.
Pentair actually lowered the price we can sell it at, and we are moving more of the pumps now. Most of them are on new pools however. Not many are going on existing pools, at least in my market.
So far I must say, with very few acceptions, the pumps are reliable. Not many warranty issues. At least that make it back to us. The builder calls the Pentair rep if there is a problem. The rep sends his tech guy out there to diagnose the problem.So we may not hear about some of them.
I think it's the tech of the future. And not doing to bad for the present either.
Just my thoughts.
c

RG-

Sorry for spreading the "only time will tell" bug. Good comments regarding the VF pump. Having the ability to adjust to a precise flow and maintain that flow probably has some value for some customers and installers, but this is a niche market. For all the other applications, Ive always been an advocate of applying the right size pump/filter for the application and applying proper piping to the system for the flow desired with routine maintenance on the filter to avoid system inefficiency. The fact remains that VF will increase speed and power to overcome these system shortfalls and this will cost the homeowner money. At what point does the homeowner get a warning that the system needs maintenance. With a non-variable flow pump, the answer is system pressure. With a variable flow pump, when is the signal sent to the homeowner that something is wrong and how much money has this cost the homeowner due to a system that is not operating efficiently. If the answer is system pressure also, then what is the value of having a variable flow technology when a variable speed (VS or 2-speed) or even a 1 speed will do the same for the homeowner.

Kelly-

Although the goal of achieving 2 speed pricing with improved efficiency sounds good, the reality of variable speed technology cost will prevent this from happening. Rare earth permanent magnet motors coupled with variable frequency drives is an expensive combination. To cut costs, the rare earth magnets will have to go and then we are back to the good ole PSC technology which is what we have in 2 speed pumps today. There may be some cost opportunity on the drive side of the design, as the current drive is a Cadillac when a Yugo will do for these pool applications, unless the VF market takes off, which will require the Cadillac drive and require the higher cost as a result. My guess is this will remain a niche market. The reality is variable speed technology is expensive and from my HVAC experience, has always fallen short on value offered vs. price.

On the other hand, there may be market for a de-featured multi-speed pump with a "yugo" variable speed drive and a high efficiency PSC motor that will fall at the same price point of todays 2 speed, with the advantage of having more than 2 speeds. I could see this being a very real product in the near future with recent technology advances in drives. But, todays VF and VS offerings cost too much and fall short on the value they offer over a 2 speed, in my opinion.

Kinda related..I have not been able to find anything from Jandy on their variable speed product. Have you seen anything yet? Maybe their offering has the lower price point (less expensive drive) and better efficiency at higher rpm with the Jandy impeller. Just curious, because obviously Jandy is not spending much money on advertising or marketing for their variable speed product.

Tres-

Good idea on comparisons between VS/VF and 2-speed/1-speed. This type of testing would have to be done on the same pool system to take piping size and hydraulics out of the equation and look at true power consumption differences between the technologies. Then on top of that, you will find that each technology will have a sweet spot on efficiency. The 1 speeds and 2 speeds will perform better at higher flow applications, the variable speeds with permanent magnet motors will perform better at low flow applications. So the results would have to be reported at different daily duty cycles.example, daily power consumed at X hours of high flow and Y hours of low flow, high flow only applications, low flow only applications, etc. Maybe this is the data that RG is referring to..I hope so and will be waiting to see this comparison data also.

I have not seen a significant increase in my electricity bill either with my two 2 speed pumps and two 1 speed pumps, but as you indicate, all other appliances and loads on those appliances mask the true energy consumed by just the pool itself. I have 3 AC units that are running a lot during these dog days of summer along with the pool pumps getting a lot more daily use this time of year (especially the 3HP slide pump), so it really becomes convoluted. During the winter, our electricy bills are very low, less than $40/month. This is because the two one speed pumps are winterized and the two 2-speeds only run a few hours a day at low speed. We have gas heat so the only electricity demand for HVAC is the small indoor fan motors. We really like our winter electricity bills!

Subl1002-

Right on.apples to oranges comparisons that are misleading. I think Pentair should do themselves a favor and take their energy calculator off their site or at least give an option for a 2 speed comparison. Also, think the energy companies should focus on proper plumbing and pipe size standards for the pool industry rather than focusing on the pump efficiency. The pump will only consume as much power at the system demands, so why not focus on ways to minimize the demand. Im really surprised what RG said related to oversizing pumps in California. I would have thought they would have been early adopters of properly sizing pumps, filters and piping before any one elseoh well.so much for logic.

This is the problem with power companies and government officials.they dont always see the big picture and always go to the component suppliers and burden them with improved efficiency but at a higher price. Case in point, in 2006, all AC units had to have 13 SEER minimum efficiency level. The HVAC industry lobbied hard for 12 SEER (which is slightly lower efficiency but at a much better cost) but our government with heavy California CEC influence passed the higher effiency 13 SEER requirement. Well, guess what.now consumers are buying a lot more window units due to cost of the 13 SEER equipment which is now burdening the power companies with higher demand because these window units are terribly inefficient. We showed this trend data to CEC officials recently and they said "Oh my.this is not what we intended at all".yep and thats what happens when you dont balance cost vs value and lose sight of the big picture.

In the case of pool pumps, if the CEC ever mandates the Pentair pumps then the power companies will see a higher power demand as a result because these pumps are so inefficient at higher speeds. Hopefully the power companies realize this and are working with the CEC to mold their policies.

Colt 357-

YeahI thought the same thing.180K units sold per year..thats a lot. I am very surpised that your price point was lowered considering copper, steel and aluminum commodities have increased by 50% just in the last year. This is having a major impact on our HVAC pricing these days and there is a lot of copper, steel and aluminum in these pool pumps also. I dont think this version of variable speed is the future. I do, however think that a low cost variation of this technology with a few speed options will do well. This whole VF value story is not very sound in my opinion and the current VS pump is technology overkill for most pools in my opinion with the only value being replacing multiple pumps with one pump that will save some initial investment.

Whew.I need to go rest my typing fingers and do some beverage curling at poolside now.

"Also, think the energy companies should focus on proper plumbing and pipe size standards for the pool industry rather than focusing on the pump efficiency."

They are in CA. It's called Title 24 and mandates 3"+ on pools in the interest of pump efficiency.

"In the case of pool pumps, if the CEC ever mandates the Pentair pumps then the power companies will see a higher power demand as a result because these pumps are so inefficient at higher speeds."

Over and over it's been said. These pumps are not running at high speed. The only ones who do it are the do it yourselfers trying to get out cheap by buying one pump to multitask. I've never programmed one to run more than 90 minutes on full 3450 rpm. And, the ones I do are for spa jets that are not running every day.

"With a variable flow pump, when is the signal sent to the homeowner that something is wrong and how much money has this cost the homeowner due to a system that is not operating efficiently."

The warning is whatever you choose. You can have it trigger at 1psi increase over perfect optimization but why would you? The typical install is 10psi or an increase of about 23 feet of head.

"If the answer is system pressure also, then what is the value of having a variable flow technology when a variable speed (VS or 2-speed) or even a 1 speed will do the same for the homeowner."

Any high speed pump will do the same thing as pressure increases. Damage filter media. The IntelliFlo won't.

I've been following the ongoing discussions over the value of the VS, VF, two speed, single speed pumps etc. and my experience with a 4X160 is very similar to tres.

I did a lot of the work on my lap pool as I couldn't afford the local PB prices. I did the excavation, the plumbing (3" suction and return lines), form work, much of the electrical and cast and set all my coping blocks. I found subs for the steel, shotcrete and pebbletech. I was worried about energy use but after 10 months of running the pump 8 to 12 hours a day at speeds from 1750 to 2000 rpm I can not detect a rise in my electric bill. At first I was dumbfounded and thought there must be a mistake. My electric bill runs around $50 in the winter and $100 in the summer due to vineyard irrigation. The 4x160 doesn't even register. Of course I have no way of knowing what my energy bill would be with a single speed or two speed pump but can't imagine it would be this small. To say that I am happy with this result would be a huge understatement.

Great. I've found the only complaints from an IntelliFlo are from those who have never owned one or from those who have never had a single speed pump that was replaced by an IntelliFlo.

I was doing some yard work this past weekend and I can relate to what you said.

My pump was running all day and there was sufficient water flow in my spa waterfall. The pump runs at 22 gpm and as I watched the meter, I was bored waiting for it to make one full turn.

$180 so cal electric bill in July and my neighbors was $260.00.

The neighbor is finally ready to buy one.

RG-

Are you also going to explain to your neighbor that he can significantly lower his electricity bill with a 2 speed also and save a lot of up front coin?

He should know his options in my opinion.

By the way, my 2 speed at low speed produces a pleasing waterfall at 40 gpm and my other 2 speed at low speed does a nice job of meeting the flow demands of my in floor system and heat pump. With both pumps running in the winter, my electricity bill is under $40 without my AC systems running! And I saved about $1400 in up front cost for two 2 speeds instead of 2 variable speeds!

I also don't feel like I'm wasting energy when I crank these pumps up to high speed for awesome waterfall action and floor cleaning. If I had Intelliflo pumps, I would feel like I'm wasting energy.

Just my point of view!

Wow Steve O (That is your name right Mr. AO Smith guy)... Edison had a competition for this money. Advanced Energy (a non profit government test lab) prepared this language and we submitted in a competition for money. 200 of our competitors were in HVAC and included companies like Carrier and Train. We were 1 of 4 selected and won the money by comparing our savings data to theirs on SCE's model AND THEIR TEST DATA. We chose to give the money to the consumer in the form of a rebate... you are such a looser.. Quit posting before you loose another job!!!!!

I realize you have only been with the HVAC division of Smith for s short time but you should really look into this! Most other companies use the money in different ways and you blame us for giving it to the consumer.. shame on you!

productmanager-

To clear the air, I am not Steve and please leave this guy alone because he is not me. With your references to HVAC companies and potential business interactions with the HVAC industry, I will no longer post on this subject due to potential conflict of interest.