Squasher,
I have the 4X160 and I love it, I love the 4 speed that you can control for various functions. You should be able to get the pump for about Paul

If you have a basic timer now, you would be better served by installing the IntelliFlo 3.2kw. It is stand alone and will serve all your needs. Expect about $1600 to install it and take your PGE rebate which is what, $400.00? Or is it $250.00?

You're being sold more than you need if you have no desire to control the pump from in the house.

The 3.2kw will do everything you need and if you don't mind going out there to push a button to use the spa, which you are already doing now, you're set.

Don't confuse the addition of the Easy Touch as the cost of the new pump. You're adding 1k more than you need to and adding a pump PLUS something you don't have now. So, actually adding two items when you only need one. The 4x160 needs the controller, the 3.2 does not in the presence of no automation now.

This installation will save far more than the 4x160. The 4x160 does not rebate without the controller, the 3.2 rebates on its own.

Thanks repairguy for your suggestion. Never thought about the 3.2kw. I'll check and see how much it is here. I think the rebate is only $100 in NorCal from PG&E.

So, to make sure I understand this properly...the 3.2kw is variable speed, not multispeed like the 4x160 right? So will it be more energy efficient than a single-speed 3/4hp pump if I want to run the solar (and nothing else besides filtration) for all 6 hours that I run the pump? i understand that it should be more efficient vs the single-speed during the winter when the solar isn't on.

Thanks again for the advice!

Warning, Warning!
Most of what has been said is true, BUT you mentioned solar. What we have found with IntelliFlo LCD with the onboard controller is they don't work on 2 story houses. The pump is too smart and when solar systems are initiated the pump thinks that it is "dead heading", in other words, the sudden pressure from the water in the solar panels creates an increase in pressure and the pump will shutdown.

Additionally, both the 4x160 and the LCD are variable. The difference is you must manually set the speed of the 4x160, the range of speed per setting is between 30 and 130 gpm in most cases.

The other important piece of information you are missing is regarding the PG&E rebates. While it is true PG&E will rebate the homeowner $100, it is also true that a Pentair certified installer will receive $400 per installation. Know this you could negotiate with your installer for a better discount.

Here is a link that might be useful: DIY Swimming Pools & Spas

Poolbuilder

Thanks for the excellent insight. I guess I need to check if the Intelliflo 3.2 will work on my house. It's a single story house; panels are at the top of the roof. Also, good info on the rebates for the installer. I got a quote for the 3.2kw and it's still above $2500 including installation (just pump).

Notice, notice. I said about $1600. Our installation takes into account th rebate. While others are installing at close to $2k, they are also pocketing their rebate. We charge a minimal price, $1600 and take or $250 rebate from SCE. Pretty fair as we support your purchasing decision with a year of support for that price. You'll need it too. On a pump that carries a price to the installer of almost 1100.00 that not bad for the customer.

The solar issue is solved by increasing the filter pressure on the 3.2 to about 20. Most solar systems do not jump 20psi on turnover so the pump will be just fine.

FYI, if you have solar, the pump gets programmed to be on early when the solar is off. When the solar kicks on, it is a smooth transition if properly programmed.

Repair Guy,

Is their a way to contact you? I am in San Diego . Based on a discussion on another thread, I decide to go with a 2 speed Jandy Stealth pump for filteration of Pool and Spa. I also have 8 Solar panels on a 2 story house and am still not sure, if at lower speed ( 1/4 Hp), the Jandy will be able to push the water to the solar panels. The PB says that if it does not work at the lower speed, I always have the option of running at full power (2 HP), which will negate the whole purpose of going with a 2 speed pump.

Please note that my pool is being built and the equipment has still not been installed. The PB is waiting for the concrete to be poured this coming week.

Thanks
--Scal

you don't need a 1600 dollar pump to circulate a pool with solar.Those intelliflo pumps are nice but they have their place.Yours is not one.Typically you need a 1.5 hp for a pool and 4-6 solar panel combo.The pentair whisper Flo pump is perfect for the application.The intelliflo is a great pump I have used to replace 3 pumps in some cases. Yours is a waste of money.Way to much pump than is needed.You could call Pentair Pool Products and they will give you the proper advise on your hydraulic application. They won't sell you anything but they do have pump sizing programs. The same ones I have on CD.Hope I helped.

I would still disagree. Any pool on a 1.5HP that is switched to a variable drive pump is going to pay back within 18 months. If you plan on living there longer than that, you will then be paying yourself instead of the utility company.

Assume you did not have solar. The pump moving for a few hours at 1.5HP is using more power than you need. It has been proven with these installations that you can effectively skim and filter at 20-30 gpm which is less than the low speed rpm of a 2 speed pump that builders like to sell AND way less wattage.

The solar will require a bit more speed and a couple hundred more watts but still less than that two speed on the low side AND way less than the high speed at 3250 rpm.

This statement from a previous post is just not true...

"Additionally, both the 4x160 and the LCD are variable. The difference is you must manually set the speed of the 4x160, the range of speed per setting is between 30 and 130 gpm in most cases."

The 4x160 is not variable. It is 4 speed that cannot be changed on demand without a controller. If your pool is running and solar demand comes along, it will not switch speeds and it will not move water to the roof without a switching mechanism or you doing it.

The 3.2kw is truly variable. If you set a specific speed that you know works your solar under the worst conditions, the corresponding gpm will be maintained at any point the solar is engaged. You will hear the pump change speeds until the proper gpm is maintained through the system. This is why it's called variable. It changes automatically in 15rpm increments.

I forgot one advantage that solar with the variable drive technology offers. Just about every solar system is popped onto a pool without regard to the circulation hydraulics of the pool. The result is a system that runs excessive back pressure on the filter and poor filtration. The high rpm pump you need for your jets is now delivering that same speed up to the roof and back down into the filter. Too much water trying to get out of the filter is the problem. Variable drive sizes itself to any hydraulic nightmare. That's the beauty! One speed for sweeping, one speed for heating, one speed for spa jets, one speed for SWG, one speed for fountains, one speed for just filtering. That's about 6 speeds right there and all will adjust and maintain on demand based on the current conditions of the filter load. And, by the way, when your pump runs dry, the voltage spikes or dips or something blocks your sweep or skimmer, the pump will shut down to protect itself and you. The whole story needs to be told when considering this pump. True, it's not always the best choice but most often it is.

Another perspective to balance repairguys comments. The Intelliflo technology offers a guarantee that all water features will work well regardless of circuit restrictions and type and number of devices on the circuit. This is a huge benefit when retrofitting existing pools that have plumbing circuits already in place and normally under-engineered (i.e., small pipe size and lots of 90 degree elbows). The other advantage is these pumps have permanent magnet motors which are about 4-5% more efficient than other pump motors. Not a huge difference in efficiency as the 2 pole induction motors used in todayÂs pool pumps are 86-89% efficient already.

RepairguyÂs comment on full speed power consumed vs lower speed power consumed is entirely true. Running a 1.5HP pump at high speed for 3 hours uses a lot more power than running that same pump at a lower speed for 3 hours. The power savings is largely due to the laws of hydraulics and only slightly due to pump technology. Lower speed provides Lower Pump Head Pressure which provides Significantly Lower Watts!

What I do not agree with is Intelliflo technology offering improved low speed performance over 2 speed technology. Although it is true that low speed is half speed, it is not half flow. The flow actually drops significantly down to 20-50 gpm and this puts the 2 speed in the same flow range as Intelliflo. 2 speed operating at low speed offers almost the same efficiency and benefits of Intelliflo. The Intelliflo will save an additional 4-5% in power over 2 speed due to its permanent magnet design. Not a big savings, but one that can certainly help if planning to use the pool pump for many years to offset the high installation cost. This payoff period will be greatly affected by the cost of power in different areas of the US. Here in Louisiana at 7.5 cents/KWH , the pump would have to be in service for almost 20 years to offset the initial cost of Intelliflo on my new pool. Other areas of the US, where power cost may be up to 5-6 times higher will obviously payoff quicker.

If replacing a pump in an existing pool, the Intelliflo is probably a good choice due to ability to fine tune flow to the pool design that is already in place. Sometimes, the Intelliflo will also allow the removal of other pumps in multiple pump pools which will helps offset the initial cost of Intelliflo. Not saying 2 speed is not a good choice for replacement, but Intelliflo will guarantee a good result where 2 speed will be more trial and error due to the existing piping design.

If building a new pool, 2 speed will work and provide all the same benefits of Intelliflo but does require some homework up front to ensure that low speed will offer enough flow for particular needs. Good plumbing practices such as using large diameter pipe and limiting the number of 90 degree elbows will ensure that 2 speed will offer equal performance as the Intelliflo.

Intelliflo is a Cadillac in the pool industry and will offer other features that 2 speed can not. Features such as multiple flows and sounds from water features, multiple power settings on spas, accommodating under-engineered plumbing on older pools, providing adequate flow when the filter is dirty, replacing multiple pumps with one pump are all areas where Intelliflo will shine. If these features are important to the pool owner and the initial cost is not a barrier, then Intelliflo is the obvious choice.

By the way, IÂm in the HVAC industry and not an affiliate of any of the pool industry companies. I just built a new pool and hence my interest in this forum. Pentair is leading the way on variable speed pump technology and they have a very nice product. Others in the industry will likely have a variable speed product soon to compete. But, like in the HVAC industry, variable speed pump technology will remain a niche product serving small markets while 2 speed technology is gaining share year over year. Economics 101Â..the cost of variable speed will continue to limit its acceptance while 2 speed is financially more attractive and offers nearly the same energy savings. No one selling variable speed pumps is going to take a loss to change these economics. The variable speed technology is just too expensive to manufacture to gain widespread acceptance.

Hope this dissertation helps any of those interested in this topic who are still awake!

Repair guy...thanks for the additional thoughts. Where are you located?

trhought...good comments and insights, thanks!!

We're in so cal where power is now .32/kw and facing another 17% increase next year. Keyword Murrieta in this sites business directory.

Guys,

When using IntelliFlo on a 2 story house what you want to do is lower the prime flow to as low as possible. How the pump primes is not common sense... adjusting this parameter opens up the look up table and makes the algorithm much more simple to see a "true" or "positive" for the pump to attain prime. The second thing you want to do is adjust up your max flow for the panel i.e. if you are having trouble at 25 GPM try 26 etc. The hardest part of using the IntelliFlo in this application is getting the software to think it is primed... usually starting the pump in the controller before the solar is initiated solves this issue as well. It will take some trial and error adjusting but once you find the flows your system works best at... you can set it and forget it and pay dividens with the overall cost to operate.

Trthought,

The IntelliFlo is incredibly superior to a two speed running on low speed. Two speed pumps are terrible at running at low for total pump efficiency. Two speeds are typically 15% to 20% electrically efficient at low speed where the IntelliFlo holds its electrical efficiency at alomost every speed (put your hand on a two speed motor that has been running and you will notice it is very hot... very hot = very inefficient.. the money your spending on powering the pump is actually being transmitted as a outdoor space heater in the area of 60% or 80% of total operating cost...i.e. a IntelliFlo at full speed (any model) is close to 90% electrical efficiency where a standard two speed.. say a 2 HP.. is less than 20% electrical efficiency at low speed. The savings are less at high speed comparisons, however, there is no replacement for adjustability in a hydraulic system and the IntelliFlo will hold this 90% to less than 800 RPM (true benefit of the PMSM motor). Keep in mind that the new goal is to get that impeller as close to BEP as possible and BEP only takes place at two points for a standard two speed. The IntelliFlo has the inate ability to have a BEP point at every speed and I will gaurantee you that a few changes in RPM (dialing in your system) can have huge benefits in finding true BEP in noise output, water to wire efficiency, pump efficiency, and motor electrical efficiency. Running the IntelliFlo at the same performance characteristic of a two speed wills give you 50% or more in any comparison on any standard induction motor product...without question.

We live on NofCal with PG&E as well. Do not have solar to contend with, but I do have pool sweep booster pump and spa. We installed an Intelliflo variable speed pump this summer - and are seeing savings of about 100 dollars a month. Not quite as high as what the site told us we would save, but well worth it.

The pool maintenance company that did it for us, thought we were going overboard on the pump, but were more than happy to have us spend money with them that they didn't think we needed to spend. The potential for energy savings and the pump's ability to turn itself off if lines get clogged, etc, made us decide that it was worth taking the plunge and giving it a try. We did not have the luxury to wait a year and see, as our pump had burned out when the pool line got clogged with debris...

It did take us a little while to figure out how to optimally program the pump. It automatically adjusts flow based upon pool volume and length of time the cycle is set for. If you set the timer like a regular pump, (to run for say 6 hours) it is not running at a low enough speed to save lots of energy - because it is pushing the water through at a rate to cycle the entire pool in 6 hours.

We now have it running 18 hours a day, and have a cycle set for the pool sweep that increased the speed of the pump for 3 hours for the pool sweep to run for two. I think we would get more savings if we could reduce the pool sweep time, but..our neighbors have lots of trees that surround our pool and we get lots of debris!

The dealers and installers I spoke with in our area seemed to be almost afraid of the pump, in fact every one I spoke with discouraged us from doing it. We were researching it this spring, and many were just starting to learn about the pump so it might be better now.

Because of this, it took a bit of a leap of faith to decide to go with it...but we are quite happy with the reduction in our electric bill... and the automatic shutdown feature.

An added benefit that we appreciate but had not considered is how Quiet it is!!!

I'd encourage you to get the pump ... I recommend it to anyone with a pool - from my experience it is well worth the energy savings... especially if you are faced with a repair anyway.

productmanager,

I'm another SCE "hostage" that wants to switch to the 3.2.

I currently run a Whisperflow 2hp through a Sta-Rite System 3 S8D110 and then to 11 4X12 solar panels (5 on the 1st story and 6 on the 2nd). I've got an 85' run before the pipes go up to the first panel.

If I understand correctly, I can use the 3.2 in my application as long as I experiment to find the correct GPM needed to "fool" the software in the pump so it doesn't shutdown. Is that correct?

If so, I'm on the 'net to order one and get it installed before the rebates end on December 31.

TIA

Matt

That installation will take a bit of experience in getting it dialed in but it can happen. Find your installer before you buy one online. The installer rebate is making the job cheap right now and you may pay more doing it that way. We do not install any unit an owner buys online as the potential for rough handling in shipping one unit is too high and as the pump rebate is dependent on the serial number, we've found some numbers to be "hijacked" and no good for the end user.

Go for the 4x160, its the same motor as the 3.2kw but far cheaper. My 1986 pool equipment died this year and I went for it last month. Keep it simple, run a low speed in the winter and high speed in the summer when you have the solar on. I find that 550 RPM for 12 hours works ok for a ~15000 gallon pool. I think that 550 RPM is around 100W or so maybe 20 gpm (can't tell since I dont have the display that most pay more for to read their wattage and gpm), but I'll see with trial and error.

I got it from my pool guy at his wholesale price along with a sta-rite DE filter, it is nowhere near the $1100 or so installer cost being quoted here for the pump. I passed on the external controller since I still have the time clock and it works great. I might give up the $175 utlity rebate since I didn't feel it was worth paying for the controller (I sent it in without the controller anyway since it still accomplishes the energy savings they are looking for). I also passed on the 3.2kw since I didn't feel I needed the fancy display, programs, wireless control etc, and the 4x160 has the same motor. I still have my old time clock controlling the intelliflo and my old booster pump. Low speed is fine with the booster pump controlling the polaris sweeper.

Anyway I think at the price I got it for I'll break even in 1-2 years on the electricity since even at high speed when solar is on is still 30% better on energy usage than the induction motor type pumps. My solar is on 4-5mo out of the year and I'll reap bigger savings when solar is off. It is also very quiet especially on the slower speeds.

What you pay for on the 011012 IntelliFlo is flow control, however, nothing can replace a experienced pool proffesional installing the unit for you with either. Speed control is far superior to single speeds and two speeds but flow control grows with your system and is far superior to just speed control... especially if you really do not know what you are doing this pump can guide you to the answer. You can relate the flow, power, and speed to how your car works since the principles are very similar. Flow is is your miles per hour, Watts is your fuel consumption, and speed is your RPM... all the things you know about fuel economy in your car apply to the pump as well. The IntelliFlo teaches you hydraulics by accident and gives you real time measures to show what you are trying to achieve. This has ultimatley made many people afraid of it that dealt with this type of equipment for years since some of the philosophy that we try and teach was taking place and they could not explain it. Keep in mind that residential builders don't run around with pressure and vacuum gauges and seldom had any idea what range they were operating their pump in... this one tells you what it is doing without the need for these tools... this can be uneasy for folks that have been doing this and were not sure why certain things happened.