Northerndaylily. You are a good writer. I love to read posts that make me think and that tap into my other emotions. I'm not sure where you stand in the area of hybridizing, or if it matters that much. I get the feeling you are more on the purchasing end than the hybridizing end, but again, that is just a guess. One of the very first things I learned when I decided to hybridize (after the fact that there were diploids and tetraploids)was that if I was going to order a daylily from a photo, that I should be not surprised if it didn't exactly match the photo when it bloomed. Early on, I made a pact with myself that I wouldn't spend good money on one until I saw it in person. That didn't last long, but the point was, and still is, I don't think it takes too long for anyone beginning out in our hobby to find out this fact. It doesn't hurt to tell them up front, like on this forum, but if they are anything like me, experience will be their greatest teacher. Let me preface this by stating that the AHS is not responsible for what the hybridizers do. It is not a policing organization any further than it does make certain that it's rules are followed, as much as possible, when they are used. They can suggest that all hybridizers be honest, but they can't stop them if they are not honest. We pass laws to drive the speed limit, that doesn't stop everyone from speeding. I do take exception to your statement "to critique the AHS establishment...or tell the truth isn't looked on kindly." Those are two very different thoughts, but linking them together would insinuate that one is the other. I really don't believe this is fair critiquing at all, more like leading the reader to a conclusion. Being a member of the AHS for 12 + years now, and being a member of the robin, I can say truthfully that the establishment gets critiqued on a regular basis, from inside and from outside. There is no guard at the door. It takes a while for groups to change and policies to change, but they certainly do, maybe not as fast as we would like. "To tell the truth isn't looked on kindly." That can be true of any hobby, and probably is, but people died for our right to freedom of speech, whether or not it is looked on kindly. That is unquestionably one of the great things about our Country. Therefore it is not only our right, but our duty to question. But to say it isn't looked on kindly, so what? If you believe it, say it anyhow. There is no group of people I know of that are going to gang together and throw you out of the room for it. There are some fantastic people in the AHS that would back anyone up for their right to their opinion. "Do they Care"? I would say the hybridizers who alter pictures don't care as much as they could. They have allowed their desire to sell or to be noticed or whatever motivitates them to supercede good judgement. Does that mean they are horrible people? "All have sinned and come short..." He who is free from making mistakes cast the first stone. We are not here to judge. I would say that it doesn't go on forever. I have seen dishonest people come and go, but very few last. And I've seen some get better after they have come to their senses. We all deserve another chance. If we buy from someone who falls into this category, the clear thing to do it to confront them, sometimes mistakes are made, and then if no remorse is presented, then don't buy from them again. It doesn't take long for the word to spread. The newer enthusiast needs to know a 'lot' of things. I'm new at 13 years and still learning. Good stuff there. As far as not growing in garden soil, I would say it happens, but to say in very many cases would take intense study to be 100% factual. And I agree that in these cases the vigor could certainly be a question. "The largest share of new intros. are developed in very warm climates." Without doing inventory I would say at best 50/50 based on the fact that there are more members north of the mason-dixon line than south. As far as them dying with a hard freeze, I've only lost one plant in 13 years. I know people in Canada who buy most of the florida line and rarely loose a plant. Then there are those who lose many. I really think that this can be more 'area' or region related than north and south related. But again, my opinion simply based on knowing a lot of hybridizers. I've read a few posts from some of the top hybridizers that tell how a flower in their garden looked totally different in a garden a thousand miles away. That just can't be denied. And please, let me know what this 'perfect' mix is so I can get some. "many of the new intros are best characterized as 'greenhouse' genetics....in no way garden plants." What percentage is 'many'. Yes there are some, but 'many' can be misleading--whether or not it was intended to be. "And yes several growers acknowledge their intro's are indeed 'hybridizing' plants...which begs the question: are the greenhouse genetics of use in the garden...longterm?" I have many 'hybridizing' plants. I do not have a greenhouse. To insinuate that a hybridizing plant is a greenhouse plant is mis-leading. These are two totally different purposes and again that sentence would lead a beginner to think they are one in the same. Not too helpful in my opinion. "Many a new hybridizer with a few plant crops will state they get nothing...nothing from crossing latest and most hyped to their good garden daylilies." I hybridized for 4 generations before I got anything I thought was worthy of even analyzing. And I believe that is more the norm than not. If it were that easy, there would be many more dayliles introduced sooner. It is time-consuming and takes a certain art, time, and even some luck to come up with a unique program by any hybridizer. I just don't see where that has anything to do with other hybridizers doing anything wrong or underhanded. "Budcount and branching data? Mostly fictional"...sometimes I wonder. I have rarely seen the branching from a southern plant be matched when grown in the north. But then again, we learn that after a while, and I really don't see in the catalogs where they say, this will grow equally as much in your area as here. Some things I hybridized won't grow in the south, just a fact with daylilies. I can use a bad-northern grower if it has something I want and produce great northern plants, it just takes a while to learn all this and where to spend your money and what you expect to get for it. If you are buying just for garden appeal, then don't go south unless you have money to burn. Some things will do quite well, but a lot of things won't flourish like we would want a garden plant to. I'm not sure about the groupie comments. I've been invited to talk to a half-dozen clubs in the next six months. I have never introduced a daylily until this month and have no groupies. People are asking me because they like my product and I have many asking to be put on a waiting list. Maybe this groupie thing happens, but if it does, for the most part I am totally ignorant of it, or have buried my head in the sand. I know in our club that we are all so busy doing our gardens etc., that there isn't time to be a groupie. I'm glad that you say "not all the growers fit this profile above." I've had conversation with a few hybridizers whose names are well known, we all agree not everything grows everywhere... therefore,I would not just ask, I would insist on answers to my questions or I would go somewhere else. I can go out in my garden of 5000+ plus daylilies and see very vigorous to wimpy. I would say that the 'hardy' tough characteristic is not lost forever. Many hybridizers I know are breeding for only that, looking past pretty for hardy. And I truly believe it should always be a concern. I think your post was a good one, I really feel anger coming from you...that's okay, but I defend your right to post whatever you like...keep in mind that there is a rule on the Daylily Robin of 'flaming' others. There have been some eliminated from it for that. Maybe that's why you don't see a ton of controversy on it. There are many hybridizers who give dayliles to all kinds of people, churches etc...simply to promote them. Money doesn't rule everyone's lives. I just don't see the Merry-go-round you mention. Parts of it are very true, but there are too many good folks involved at this point to let anything get so out of hand it isn't repariable. These facts are out there also...Bob

Im posting on this to bring this thread back to life. Lots of good information here. I just saw this post from Uniondawg and feel kind of relieved. Artisian is one of the pool builders I wanted to get a quote from. He didnt seem to want the business. We live out of state, and are building in the Charlotte area. I told him we were coming in for a few days for the sole purpose of meeting with a few pool builders and he couldnt find an hour to give me, even a month out. I felt like I was begging him to take my business. After asking about three different times on two different days and being met with, "thats family time, or Im pretty sure im booked" it was obvious to me he wasnt interested in my business. He was very nice, but strange behavior for a business man. Too many other pool builders in the area to be dealing with that. Plenty of other reputable pool builders out there that want the business.

Stacy, sorry to hear our tile is hard to come by. Master Tile had a similar tile like ours called 'NOR LAT BOT 6' from the Latina Series. lala2874 used it with travertine and it was very pretty. Looks like wamaha is using Pearland Pools for their build. I don't expect they will have a problem. I referred them to a very good friend of mine as we made the mistake of not using them for our build. Their build has gone smoothly even though they are very busy. They are a very professional and a timely builder of beautiful pools.

Sounds very pricey to me because you do not have sheer decents, or waterfalls, or bubblers, or spa, or LED lighting and not much concrete. Not sure what else to say. Our basic pool was @28k which included pebble finish, pool cage, 1800sq of pavers, sheer decent, in ground fountain, returns for dolphin statues and salt water generator. Add 3k more for the heat pump. We were swimming in about 19-20 days. Look at our blog "Our New Pool Build in Jacksonville, FL" Look at this link http://www.thathomesite.com/forums/load/pools/msg0718532217198.html?21 HTH