While I can't comment specifically on the above post, I've always wondered why gardeners think they can buy a plant from a totally different climate and expect it to perform for them the same as it did where it was originally created.

Can you take an orchid that is growing in the wild in the tropics and plant it outside in a Northern garden and expect it to live? No. Can you even take a palm tree that grows everywhere in FLA and plant it in your garden in Western NY and expect it to live? I wouldn't.

I try to buy from Northern gardens since I grow plants in the North. If I buy something from FLA, I try to see first if it has a history of being grown well in the North. And even then, I don't expect the colors and/or edges that flourish in the South.

And soil and garden conditions (I won't grow DL's in a greenhouse) can make a big difference in how a plant looks and performs.

A friend who lives 10 miles from me gave me one of Elizabeth Shooter's daylilies and said it never performed well for her in the 3 years it was in her garden. The next year she was walking around my gardens and couldn't believe the same plant she gave me looked so nice.

I think educating gardeners is essential. I personally have had good success and great plants from Northern hybridizers.

I must say that the issues you brought up, northerndaylily, are the same issues that always come up in animal husbandry: when people jump into breeding to make money without testing their breeding stock in competition, in our case in the garden, because they assume the fancy pedigrees say it all, there are bound to be undesirable repercussions.
The first thing a well known FL hybridizer asked me a couple years ago when I was happily rattling on about all the beautiful daylilies they'd bred that I had in my Oregon garden was : "Do they actually open for you?" That stopped me in my tracks.
But that was a good thing because it made me rethink my whole approach to daylilies and do some peeking behind the curtain.
There are still sturdy & superior gene pools left to choose from in our beloved hemerocallis and I think the best growers and sellers are still highly ethical people, both in the North AND the South, who are not hard to find once you know what you are looking for.
I agree that education is the key & I'm glad you made the effort to bring this to attention before too many people lose interest in the species because of repeated disappointments.

One of the most misleading awards in daylilies is the Stout Medal. When you check to see where most of the votes for the winners come from you can just about bet that your zone will be poorly represented. I got off on a kick when I first started buying daylilies and used the theory that if it was a prize winner is should do well in my garden. That was before I discovered that most of the voters are from east of the Mississippi and many of those plants do poorly in California. And for those who compare California and Florida. Forget it. Many of my Florida daylilies refuse to open here and those fat edges are barely visible especially if we have a cool year. I cannot stress enough that if you can't see it growing in your area you really have no idea of just what you are getting. If you are lucky enough to have a daylily farm close by pay them a visit and see how the available plants are really going to look in your garden. Otherwise, you pay your money and take your chances.

So the question is "Are the hybridizers misleading you when you see pictures of their plants?" No. That is how the plant looks in their garden or greenhouse. It just has nothing to do with how the same plant will do in your garden and if you are smart you won't expect it to.

JoAnn

northerndaylily, I agree that hybridizers deserve some criticism. But you have to keep in mind that they are business oriented. Their job is to sell daylilies. If they don't give customers what they want...what they demand...then they will quickly go out of business. So the question becomes, who is to blame?

Who is to blame for buying daylilies that are not cold hardy? Who is to blame for buying daylilies that are susceptible to rust? Who is to blame for buying pretty faces without good plant habits? Who is to blame for drooling over pretty pics that don't resemble reality? Who is to blame for buying blindly without demanding more information? We are.

When the consumer gets tired of winter losses... when the buyer gets tired of repeatedly throwing rust infested clumps into the garbage can... when we start questioning hybridizers about their growing habits... when we demand accurate photographs... we'll get it. In the mean time, we can all live in daylily fantasy world and pretend everything is just peachy!

I think a few consumers have decided enough is enough - myself included. They've started to complain and some hybridizers are listening. Look at Bill Maryott's website. It is not unusual for him to post 2 photos of the same flower in order to show the range of colors in one daylily. He also points out which daylilies are cold hardy - and which have shown some rust resistance - and which are most susceptible to rust. He is also the person who brought up the inaccurate photo topic on the Robin. IMO, he deserves our thanks and our business. And for the record, I don't get any more bonus gifts than any other customer.

On the other hand, when I've asked other hybridizers for rust information and been told "I don't know."...I respond with an email that states that I will save my money for the future when more rust information is available. Why anyone in the south would spend hundreds of dollars for one daylily fan - that may prove to be a rust magnet - is beyond my comprehension.

Other buyers are complaining via email - to each other. They're asking each other what to do - and where to buy - and how to handle these issues. Just because it isn't posted here in public, don't think that people aren't discussing these topics. More are participating in the rust survey. Others are discussing these issues by phone and at club meetings.

The power is in our hands - not the hybridizers. We have the money - they have the product. We demand - they supply. If more complain and stop buying - believe me, they'll change. But if you're happy with the status quo - do nothing.

Kathy

Good posts ... I didn't respond to original post because I just don't see a big conspiracy surrounding the AHS. If you are not happy with the AHS, volunteer your time to it and make the changes you want.

I've asked hybridizer's in FLA about cold hardiness in the North .. they either respond that it's been growing well in such & such a place, or they have no idea. If they have no idea, then it's my decision to make whether to spend the money and see how it does.

There is one particular hybridizer that everyone knows about who enhances his photos in his catalog. Every year when he sends it out, newbie's rave about the colors of his DL's. We then caution them that their plants will never look like that, they are probably nice garden plants, but not the colors that he shows. In this case this person has a reputation .... and we can continue to spread the word.

I think buyers need to be more reasonable in their expectations ... as I said in my first post, buy plants that you have seen grown in your own climate.

Joann ... hard to believe that people could even think about comparing FLA & CA .. totally different places & climates.

These are wonderful posts for newbies and semi-experts as well.I am one that researches an endeavor prior to spending on it.I alresdy knew about reds needing adequate water to be really as red as they are pictured and about sun fading.I learned about growing medium composition and temperature having an effect on color when my colors were off and I didn't know why. From the people on this forum I have learned to be aware of origin vs performance.The Daylily is a far more complex plant than most are willing to say.I am not even sure that the old "ditchlily" grows everywhere in the U.S.,although it seems that way.Thank you for your willingness to educate those who are less experienced.HYbridizers should realize that zone performance ratings of a certain cultivar will not lead to a great loss in sales.What leads to the loss of sales is pretending all of the plants do well everywhere.When all do not,it is not the plant that is given the bad rep,it is the Hybridizer."So and so's plants do not do well in zone x". It may be just a select few that don't,but the Hybridizer's name is the thing that becomes avoided. Many times on this forum there are questions about how a Hybridizer's plants grow for others. Perhaps it should be "Buyer be educated".

Betsy

"I didn't respond to original post because I just don't see a big conspiracy surrounding the AHS. If you are not happy with the AHS, volunteer your time to it and make the changes you want" writes one poster.

Conspiracy? That's your word.. not mine. Your painting yourself using that characterization. Not happy with the AHS? Whose a member.. not me.

Lots and lots of good people join and serve in the AHS. Largely a social organizaton via the flowers.. if it serves the best interests of the daylily is open to debate by reasonable people. Mostly it's a marketing concern.. drawing in new customes who aren't aware of how the game is played. My original post is a snapshot of how this game is played.

I am a member of the AHS and my local club. Your post sounded to me like this is a big conspiracy out there to defraud buyers. I don't agree.

Hybridizers that ask for and get the real big money for their intros are just like any other business.They are in it to make money.I am not saying there is a conspiracy,nor am I saying there is not.Some Hybridizer along the way thought their intro was worth a lot of money and apparently some idiot paid that money.So it begins.Another Hybridizer sees this and thinks they are just as good,so up the price of their plants go,and along comes more dopes.We are foolish to think that a Hybridizer will not try to market their plants through any club affiliation.They would be dopes if they didn't.I think that many in the DL world think they are Elitists,and that by spending big money on the latest big name Hybridizer's plants makes them soooo much better.These people are the bottom line.They have allowed the situation to get out of control by blindly paying big money and asking no questions.A Lexus is just a Toyota,folks.I don't think there is malicious intent on anyone's part in the not so accurate representation of these plants. No one has thought that far ahead.These "big names" that may or may not doctor a photo,or allow it to be doctored by a publisher,are not dipping lead into gold paint in a deliberate,vicious attempt to defraud the public(ok,maybe one or two are),but are selling their art.It is up to the individual to "buy smart".I don't think club members or DL enthusiasts should get all hysterical and take sides to "fight this out".I agree with almost all that everyone has posted.I see it as a consiracy,but not a prethought,well planned one.It is accidental,out of each person with knowledge of the untruths being silent for fear of criticism and having a particular Hybridizer "not like me",or not being invited to the "garden party".Who cares? There was a time when I wouldn't tell people where I lived because they always acted differntly towards me once they knew.Does it matter if my house has 33 rooms and yours has 9? NO.Does it matter if you spend $175 on a single fan of a plant and I spend $8? NO.At least not to me. Unfortunately,it matters to some,and that is why we have this "runaway train".The "deceit" will go on as long as we let it.No one wants to "name names" because they will get sued or maybe not liked anymore.If a plant is crap for me I will say it.Ok,I'm done.Kill me if you want.I moved to the country to live in obscurity anyway.

Betsy

"I am a member of the AHS and my local club. Your post sounded to me like this is a big conspiracy out there to defraud buyers. I don't agree" writes one poster.

Big conspiracy? I laugh.. you can't be reading what I wrote.

'Sounded like' you write.. read it again.

Perhaps it should be "Buyer be educated". writes Betsy.

Good point. Sounds more appropiate.

________________________________________________________

"I agree that education is the key & I'm glad you made the effort to bring this to attention before too many people lose interest in the species because of repeated disappointments." writes Mareas.

Exactly.. tell it like it is. The less newbies are discouraged the better for all of us. All hybridizers should: truthfully answer questions when asked prior to purchase... listing primary plant and flower characteristics.. ie, opening ability, color stability, plant vigor and honest real world figures for budcounts and branching... something realistic under normal garden conditions. Just for openers.

De-lurking to say thanks to everyone on this forum for the wealth of info you all provide, and a couple of my pesos on this subject...

I'd like to remind everyone of a few things about images. While I'm new to gardening, I'm not new to imaging, which is part of what I do for a living. I can take almost any picture of almost any daylily and change it so that you see what I want you to see - color of daylily, color of foliage, even the dirt color and all without airbrushing! Then there's airbrushing which is another can of worms. As we all know, there isn't a model shot today who doesn't get a fair amount of airbrushing before their image goes to print or gets posted on a website. The digital age has made this way too easy!

And yes, I can usually tell when something like this has been done and yes, I've seen a few growers sites with obviously retouched daylily images. Again, I'm fairly new to the daylily culture, so I'm not sure if there is a standard growers are being held to, but they ought to be.

And speaking of standards, it's also good to remember that many (not all) of these images are being shot by rank amateurs who have little clue how their cameras work or what they are capable of, not to mention the delicate art of balancing light and exposure and correctly preparing the image for the venue intended (print or web).

My opinions here were not meant to belittle any non-professional photographers on this forum who post images of their flowers. Frankly, the vast majority of the images posted here are some of the best available on the net and many are miles ahead of some I've seen on some growers sites, FWIW.

And as a noob, I did not read this post as a conspiracy warning. A couple of key quotes:

"I don't see this as a purposeful attempt to deceive, but rather a lack of knowledge how to present the flowers correctly"

to which I whole heartedly agree, and...

"The newer and more inexperienced daylily enthusiast needs to be aware of several issues per color matching and plant performance."

Something with which most AHS members and local club members are already too familiar with.

Back to lurk mode...

I was also told by a local Hybridizer that"Your pink may not be my pink,and both may be different from their pink."
So true.

Betsy

Northerndaylily. You are a good writer. I love to read posts that make me think and that tap into my other emotions. I'm not sure where you stand in the area of hybridizing, or if it matters that much. I get the feeling you are more on the purchasing end than the hybridizing end, but again, that is just a guess.
One of the very first things I learned when I decided to hybridize (after the fact that there were diploids and tetraploids)was that if I was going to order a daylily from a photo, that I should be not surprised if it didn't exactly match the photo when it bloomed. Early on, I made a pact with myself that I wouldn't spend good money on one until I saw it in person. That didn't last long, but the point was, and still is, I don't think it takes too long for anyone beginning out in our hobby to find out this fact. It doesn't hurt to tell them up front, like on this forum, but if they are anything like me, experience will be their greatest teacher.
Let me preface this by stating that the AHS is not responsible for what the hybridizers do. It is not a policing organization any further than it does make certain that it's rules are followed, as much as possible, when they are used. They can suggest that all hybridizers be honest, but they can't stop them if they are not honest. We pass laws to drive the speed limit, that doesn't stop everyone from speeding. I do take exception to your statement "to critique the AHS establishment...or tell the truth isn't looked on kindly." Those are two very different thoughts, but linking them together would insinuate that one is the other. I really don't believe this is fair critiquing at all, more like leading the reader to a conclusion. Being a member of the AHS for 12 + years now, and being a member of the robin, I can say truthfully that the establishment gets critiqued on a regular basis, from inside and from outside. There is no guard at the door. It takes a while for groups to change and policies to change, but they certainly do, maybe not as fast as we would like. "To tell the truth isn't looked on kindly." That can be true of any hobby, and probably is, but people died for our right to freedom of speech, whether or not it is looked on kindly. That is unquestionably one of the great things about our Country. Therefore it is not only our right, but our duty to question. But to say it isn't looked on kindly, so what? If you believe it, say it anyhow. There is no group of people I know of that are going to gang together and throw you out of the room for it. There are some fantastic people in the AHS that would back anyone up for their right to their opinion.
"Do they Care"? I would say the hybridizers who alter pictures don't care as much as they could. They have allowed their desire to sell or to be noticed or whatever motivitates them to supercede good judgement. Does that mean they are horrible people? "All have sinned and come short..." He who is free from making mistakes cast the first stone. We are not here to judge. I would say that it doesn't go on forever. I have seen dishonest people come and go, but very few last. And I've seen some get better after they have come to their senses. We all deserve another chance. If we buy from someone who falls into this category, the clear thing to do it to confront them, sometimes mistakes are made, and then if no remorse is presented, then don't buy from them again. It doesn't take long for the word to spread.
The newer enthusiast needs to know a 'lot' of things. I'm new at 13 years and still learning. Good stuff there. As far as not growing in garden soil, I would say it happens, but to say in very many cases would take intense study to be 100% factual. And I agree that in these cases the vigor could certainly be a question. "The largest share of new intros. are developed in very warm climates." Without doing inventory I would say at best 50/50 based on the fact that there are more members north of the mason-dixon line than south.
As far as them dying with a hard freeze, I've only lost one plant in 13 years. I know people in Canada who buy most of the florida line and rarely loose a plant. Then there are those who lose many. I really think that this can be more 'area' or region related than north and south related. But again, my opinion simply based on knowing a lot of hybridizers. I've read a few posts from some of the top hybridizers that tell how a flower in their garden looked totally different in a garden a thousand miles away. That just can't be denied. And please, let me know what this 'perfect' mix is so I can get some. "many of the new intros are best characterized as 'greenhouse' genetics....in no way garden plants." What percentage is 'many'. Yes there are some, but 'many' can be misleading--whether or not it was intended to be. "And yes several growers acknowledge their intro's are indeed 'hybridizing' plants...which begs the question: are the greenhouse genetics of use in the garden...longterm?" I have many 'hybridizing' plants. I do not have a greenhouse. To insinuate that a hybridizing plant is a greenhouse plant is mis-leading. These are two totally different purposes and again that sentence would lead a beginner to think they are one in the same. Not too helpful in my opinion.
"Many a new hybridizer with a few plant crops will state they get nothing...nothing from crossing latest and most hyped to their good garden daylilies." I hybridized for 4 generations before I got anything I thought was worthy of even analyzing. And I believe that is more the norm than not. If it were that easy, there would be many more dayliles introduced sooner. It is time-consuming and takes a certain art, time, and even some luck to come up with a unique program by any hybridizer. I just don't see where that has anything to do with other hybridizers doing anything wrong or underhanded.
"Budcount and branching data? Mostly fictional"...sometimes I wonder. I have rarely seen the branching from a southern plant be matched when grown in the north. But then again, we learn that after a while, and I really don't see in the catalogs where they say, this will grow equally as much in your area as here. Some things I hybridized won't grow in the south, just a fact with daylilies. I can use a bad-northern grower if it has something I want and produce great northern plants, it just takes a while to learn all this and where to spend your money and what you expect to get for it. If you are buying just for garden appeal, then don't go south unless you have money to burn. Some things will do quite well, but a lot of things won't flourish like we would want a garden plant to.
I'm not sure about the groupie comments. I've been invited to talk to a half-dozen clubs in the next six months. I have never introduced a daylily until this month and have no groupies. People are asking me because they like my product and I have many asking to be put on a waiting list. Maybe this groupie thing happens, but if it does, for the most part I am totally ignorant of it, or have buried my head in the sand. I know in our club that we are all so busy doing our gardens etc., that there isn't time to be a groupie.
I'm glad that you say "not all the growers fit this profile above." I've had conversation with a few hybridizers whose names are well known, we all agree not everything grows everywhere... therefore,I would not just ask, I would insist on answers to my questions or I would go somewhere else.
I can go out in my garden of 5000+ plus daylilies and see very vigorous to wimpy. I would say that the 'hardy' tough characteristic is not lost forever. Many hybridizers I know are breeding for only that, looking past pretty for hardy. And I truly believe it should always be a concern.
I think your post was a good one, I really feel anger coming from you...that's okay, but I defend your right to post whatever you like...keep in mind that there is a rule on the Daylily Robin of 'flaming' others. There have been some eliminated from it for that. Maybe that's why you don't see a ton of controversy on it.
There are many hybridizers who give dayliles to all kinds of people, churches etc...simply to promote them. Money doesn't rule everyone's lives. I just don't see the Merry-go-round you mention. Parts of it are very true, but there are too many good folks involved at this point to let anything get so out of hand it isn't repariable.
These facts are out there also...Bob

Pollinatorbob your post is very interesting.. written from the perspective of your own hybridizing efforts contrasted to the overall snapshot I painted against the larger landscape of daylily hybridizing. I'd suggest your from the level of daylily hybridizers who do little to no self promotion.. one grower told me he preferred to 'fly under the radar', which I think fits a not well known group of serious hybridizers. Some of these speak at gatherings detailing their hybridizing programs and what there goals are.

But this dedicated group is not SELL orientated.. comparing them to the grower with flower picture presentations designed to wow the less knowledgeable & new to daylilies buyers' into opening up their checkbooks. As I wrote in my original post.. often times the harder an indiviudal markets the least they have to sell. Word of mouth sales keep the best in business.. if a growers plants are less than that.. they must keep "sellin" to replace that round of dissatisfied buyers who leave.

"And yes, I can usually tell when something like this has been done and yes, I've seen a few growers sites with obviously retouched daylily images. Again, I'm fairly new to the daylily culture, so I'm not sure if there is a standard growers are being held to, but they ought to be" writes greenthumbfish.

Greenthumbfish I heartily agreed. Seems unethical to me to see these obviously re-worked daylily pics on some growers sites used as representations of their flowers. As a previous post relatedyour pink might not be my pink etc. .. I chuckle. Yes it may be Abode PhotoShop Pink. Theres so MUCH fudging in daylily pics going around that its one of the reasons I post.

It is interesting that an "fairly new to the daylily culture" individual can be so accurate with his/her interpretation of reality or truth as it relates here. For some reason, this is sort of a deja vu daydream moment for me.

It has always been this way as far as I know. Pretty much the same politics no matter where you are in our great country or what you are doing.

Society dictates that we must learn how to embrace and effectively communicate with excuses, and avoid truth...because we are trying to benefit ourselves according to the perspectives of others.

If I were a well-balanced pillar of society, it would be due to my ability to manufacture an illusion for others, while keeping my secrets. My relationships would be based on balancing selfishness with my ability to defend my boundaries. No room for truth, it doesn't matter anyway. What would that get me?

Excuses are where its at, and not being held accountable. That all starts with not holding others accountable. And the final component of the grand equation is the fragile ego combined with personality/spiritual flaws that we all possess...you know, the basis for the drama of psychology and psychiatry.

Has anyone ever stopped on their way to work and had a thought...that there might actually be a meaning to life? Something more spiritual and less physical? Some reason to do a good job some days. To take pride in what you do and feel good about it with no excuses?

Uh, this is about dayliles. Why would we ever expect anything more than what we have? The math does not add up to solutions...only problems. No equation has a balance when humanity is involved.

Our brains are not operating efficiently. We need more prescriptions and other excuses. Who would want to be the first to stand up on a pedestal and be stripped of excuses, and see who they are...with no society to protect them.

But, what if a person could stand up and show well when he/she was exposed? Well then, they would be freaks of nature.

Yes, I need to stop in at the nearest psychiatrist office. I thought humans could breed good daylilies, develop them, and market them with integrity. I am truly in need of help. No doubt some of you agree.

Ahhh,Wade.That is exactly it.Human nature and Capitalism.The Human is what skews the results,regardless of whether there is malicious intent or not.We is what we is.