I just typed a response to a similar question, so I'll paste it in here too:

"We don't have a spa, but we have a grotto, bubbler, 11' long waterfall and a slide with water. We have one pump (an Intelliflo) plus a booster pump for the cleaner. it's hooked up to SunTouch controls so that we push a button on the remote and it diverts most of the water from standard circulation mode to the water features and also ramps the pump up to high speed. It's powerful enough to run everything except the slide, the slide is 8' tall and requires a lot of head pressure. So we hit another button on the remote that diverts the water from the waterfall to the slide if we want to use the slide. So, if you have automation you could probably get by with a single pump for your pool circulation/ filtration and water features plus a 2nd pump for your spa (plus a booster if you have a pressure-side cleaner)."

In your case you do have automation, so I don't see why you can't cut out the pump dedicated to the water features and run them from the Intelliflo instead. The PB will have to install some valve actuators to control the valves when you want to turn your water features on and off, but that's no biggie.

Thanks for the response. I spoke with the pb and he said that the spa and pool can share a pump, and that there was no downside to that. I got the feeling if I wouldn't have said anything he just would have put in an extra pump.

So, now I am not sure about him saying the pool and spa can share and you are saying the pool and water features can share. Can it go the other way also, or is there a reason the spa and pool shouldn't share?

Thanks!

Be aware that if you get the Intelliflo VF (variable flow), it will not talk with the Easytouch (unless Pentair has made some firmware changes in the last year).

Generally, if you get the VF, you need the Intellitouch panel. If you get the VS, then you can use the EasyTouch.

You should also specify 2.5 inch or 3.0 inch plumbing. I think the industry standard is 2.0.

I would highly recommend you go with an EasyTouch system or IntelliTouch system for your setup described. You already are using IntelliBrites and probably an IntelliFlo? Both EasyTouch and IntelliTouch now completely control IntelliBrite lights.

>

Peter, give them a couple months. I hear lots of good stuff is coming to EasyTouch!!

I would get a seperate pumps as suggested. If you want the intelliflo, use it for your circulation. The intelliflo is not efficient at running high flow features, it was desgined for low speed efficiency and not to be a one size fits all approach even though it can be used as such. With all of the hype it is hard to find unbiased opinions on the VF/VS but if you look hard enough you will find opposing opinions. Something to consider, if you design your pool around a single variable speed pump, what happens if the technology changes, single speeds become more energy efficient and variable speed pumps are no longer produced?

The local Pool store here told me that they use Easy Touch 8 to fully control the Intelliflow VF. Aans so that is whay my A&S PB has speced out in the contract.
Who is right here. The posters here, or my local pool store?
I need to know ASAP.

Peter11365 -

I thought I could use either controller with the intelliflo. I have been searching threads since you posted this, but have not gotten a firm answer until looking back in this thread, which seem to indicate I can use the easy touch with the VF.

As far as the pipe info, the pool is already built, that was done over a year ago, we are just now nearing the end of the house build and the pool finish will soon be done as will the equipment install, so I need to make my final choices. Thanks for the input though, I will keep that in mind for the next pool!

ncrealestateguy said - The local Pool store here told me that they use Easy Touch 8 to fully control the Intelliflow VF. Aans so that is whay my A&S PB has speced out in the contract.
Who is right here. The posters here, or my local pool store?

This is the question I have been trying to figure out, can I use the easy touch with the intelliflo? If so, what will it be able to control and what will it not?

subl1002 - you think I should still have 3 separate pumps? The whole pool is already built, all they need to do is the interior finish and putting in the equipment, I am not sure if that makes a difference here.

I really don't know much about pools, so what would be some examples of high flow features?

I will be having a pool and spa and 2 large laminar jets. There is a possibility of adding a small waterfall in the future, and there is plumbing in place for this. What things would be high flow?

Landa mac - I was planning on using the easy touch (I was told the model #'s would be 520545 , 520092 , 520547). If I go with intellitouch the model #'s would be 520509,520139, 520136,520149. I was told my choices for pumps are Intelli flo VF 11012 or Intelli flo VS 11013. The upcharge from what is listed in my initial post is $350 for intelliflo VS, $650 for intelli flo VF, no upcharge for the easy touch and $2966 for the intellitouch.

From the information I have been given, I would like to use the intelliflo VF with the easy touch controllers listed, so my total upcharge would be $650. I am open to the VS possibly, but, as much as I would love the intellitouch, I really don't want to lay out another 3k at this point in my house/pool build.

Thanks so much to everyone for the input so far!

Jennifer

Hi Jennifer,

EasyTouch can _currently_ only control the IntelliFlo VS pump.

IntelliTouch can control both the VS and VF IntelliFlo pumps.

I think you would be extremely pleased with an EasyTouch system as you described above and the IntelliFlo VS pump. The only difference is that you will set the VS pump to run at a certain speed for your daily filtration cycles. You can also specify 3 additional speeds for heater, cleaner, freeze protection, etc. The variable flow (VF) pump is basically the same pump with enhanced flow control capabilities. With this pump, you would program it by telling it that you have a 20,000 gallon pool and you want to turn the water over in it once, twice, etc. per day. Then the pump would figure out that it has to run at 28 gallons per minute to achieve that turnover in the scheduled program (say 8am to 5pm) that you specify with EasyTouch. As the filter starts to become plugged up more, the VF pump will compensate to ensure it is flowing what it has calculated that it needs to run at or what you have told it to run at.

It may not make a difference at this point. The spa, waterfall, infloor cleaning, pool cleaner etc, basically almost anything except circulation is high flow. I would personally use a 2sp in your situation for the circulation, it gives low speed efficiency for the circulation but also is efficient running at high speed for the in floor cleaning. Most builders will tell you to have a seperate spa pump, its pretty standard issue. If you are running your circulation or floor cleaning on a schedule then decide to use the spa with this on, you have to interrupt that in order to divert your flow. Also, keep in mind the intelliflo was designed completely for low speed efficiency, not as a replacement for a multi pump system. This is achieved as a dedicated circulation pump on a small-mid size pool. Once you kick this pump up to start running features, it starts eating up alot more power than a 2 sp or single speed would. This is due to its impeller being designed around moving water at slow speeds, the trade off is high speed efficiency. You will end up spending more money on the pump itself and the electric to run it, over the system that is laid out by your PB. If you want to save money on your circulation and also run the in floor cleaning, then use the 2sp. If you didnt have the infloor then the VS/VF would be good for the circulation. IMO running the entire system off of one pump is not a good idea. Look at the VS vs VF thread, TR explains this pump very well.

To jj44444444

Ditto to what Landa Mac said. Except...

If you want to use a single pump, and if you didn't have the spa and the water features, I'd say you could use either pump. With the additional features, I think the added versatility of the VF pump would be worthwhile.

In conjunction with the Intellitouch controller, the VF can have at least 8 different speeds, whereas the VS is limited to a maximum of 4. I have a simple pool with no spa, and I use at least 3 speeds (filtering, vacuuming, skimming).

The VF has two features which I wish I had in my VS: a flowmeter and a wattmeter. These would be very useful in optimizing for energy.

As for subl1002's comments about the high-speed inefficiency of the the VF/VS, well I think the jury's still out on that one. The big question is at what point the VF is less efficient than a conventional pump. I have a pool of around 12,000 gallons, and I run my VS at 2300 rpm for 45 minutes a day for surface skimming, and it creates more than enough flow. I sincerely doubt that my VS is wasting energy compared to a conventional pump spinning at 3450 rpm. I run the pump at 900 rpm (1/4 speed) for about 8-12 hours the rest of the day.

Ok, so if I go with the VF then I have to go with the intellitouch is what I am hearing. In that case, does a $2966 upcharge from the easy touch sound correct? That seems really high to me, and will take a while to get any savings from the VF pump.

I would guess that most 80% of the time the pump would just be doing the infloor cleaning and turning of the pool. I won't be using the water features that often and the spa would only be used for an hour or so at a time, perhaps once or twice a week tops on average. Since I am in Phoenix, there would be 3-4 months out of the year that I don't see using the spa, it is just too warm out.

Thanks for the comments and help!

Peter, the jury's not out on this, it is what it is. The point of diminished returns would differ mainly dependent on what single or 2sp pump you are comparing it to as well as the plumbing. I do know for sure that you can go to the Pentair website and see for yourself that the Intelliflo uses more power at high speed than any other pool pump they make, 2sp or single sp. If you do some more research on this pump (ignoring the loaded non factual opinions), you will easily see what I am saying is true. JJ you will not be saving any money in your initial investment and more than likely costing more in power. If price/budegt are your main concerns, you could use a 2 speed on a timer for the circulation and in floor, and a seperate pump for the spa. If you want inexpensive automation get the suntouch for the spa and light, leave the circulation pump off the automation all together. This entire setup would probably cost you less than just your easytouch upcharge. However if you want the VF/VS just because or for variable power on the spa jets then what I said doesnt matter anyways.

I think it's a mistake to look only at the Full Load Amp rating of the motor. The fact is that most applications will not be running the pump at full speed. The thing that strikes me about the 2-speed pump curves is the huge gap between the 3450 and the 1725 rpm curves. There's really nothing in between. As a result, either the pump doesn't move enough water (cleaners, water features) or it moves much more water than necessary. In the latter case, it really doesn't matter how efficient the impeller design is, you're using more energy than you need to.

Further, remember that the FLA rating of the motor is not necessarily how much current the motor draws at full speed. FLA is the maximum amperage that the motor can draw and still dissipate enough heat to prevent the motor from overheating. In many cases, a motor running at full speed will draw considerably less than its FLA rating if the motor is not fully loaded. A good analogy would be a pickup truck; at 65 mph, it consumes more fuel when it is towing a boat than when it isn't.

If someone truly needs all the flow of a 3 hp pump, then they shouldn't be looking at an intelliflo. If you have a more modest pool, say 10,000 to 25,000 gallons, then the intelliflo lets you fine tune your pump to whatever flow rate makes the most sense.

For a good discussion of real world energy usage, check the link. There's a bunch of good hard-core tech info on that site.

Peter-

Thanks for the link to the Intelliflo technical discussion. Obviously this was an Intelliflo only discussion and only addressed low speed efficiency. Variable speed pumps with BPM motors will always use less power than a PSC motor at low speed. There is no argument here.

However, variable speed at higher speeds suffers from large power consumption due to two primary power robbers 1) high current inversion of AC to DC power in the VFD, which is very inefficient and produces a lot of waste heat as a result 2) Compromised impeller design because the impeller can not operate at peak efficiency for a large gpm range so the engineers have to make a choice where they want to optimize the impeller and at the same time a choice at where the impeller will not be very efficient.

In the case of Intelliflo, from their published power, TDH and gpm curves, they have optimized for low speed operation and rightly so, but this choice also causes the higher speed efficiency to be miserable.

Also of note, while I agree with your warning of using FLA to estimate power consumption, I would also add that the Intelliflo curve is true power consumption in watts and not FLA. Using FLA to calculate 2 speed pump power is worst case and, to your point, will only be better in the real world which makes the 2 speed even more favorable over variable speed.

Just wanted to offer a balanced view here. Variable speed has its own merits, mainly low speed efficiency and ability to tune flow to plumbing resistance for optimum performance. But, to suggest using a variable speed pump for multi-tasking, which requires higher speeds, is not doing the energy conscious homeowner any good.

In the case of pools with multiple water features or in-floor cleaners which require higher flows, multiple 1 speed or 2 speed pumps that are tuned for the higher flows will always save energy over a variable speed that is trying to inefficiently cover a large operating range.

jj-

In your case with a floor cleaning system...the floor cleaner will have to run for about 2 hours a day to get full rotation of the heads and full cleaning. For other hours of the day, the pump can ran at low speed allowing the pump to operate easier against lower resistance providing turnover and filtering for your pool. A variable speed or a 2 speed will both provide energy efficient operation for your cleaning and filtering needs. Only you can make the decision if you want to spend the extra money for the variable speed. To help you justify the extra cost for variable speed over 2 speed, use 200 watts per hour savings over 2 speed at low speed and 1,000 watts per hour cost over 2 speed at high speed. Knowing how long you will run the pump at high and low speed will allow you to calculate how much money is saved per day with variable speed and 2 speed, helping to make your decision.

Hope this helps!

OK... my pool store is still telling me that an Easy Touch 8 will run the VF?
Why do they swear by it, and folks here are back and forth on it? Seems to me it is a black and white question.

Peter for this particular case I dont think it was a mistake to look at the full load amp rating. The poster was discussing running a spa, waterfall, bubblers and the pool all at the same time on one single intelliflo instead of multiple pumps like the PB wanted. Putting all other situations aside, jj does need to be concerned with this pumps high RPM/flow power consumption as does anyone else who wants to run more than circulation with it.

tr:

Points taken. For some reason, I was thinking that the AC-DC-AC conversion was relatively efficient. It is true that the losses here could be significant. I find it a little bit difficult to believe that the intelliflo could consume 1 kW more than an equivalent 3 hp pump at high speed, but I don't have any data to back up my reservations.

subl:

I'm not certain the original poster was planning to run all the features simultaneously. If that's the case, then I agree that multiple pumps make some sense. I think the intent was to save some money on the front end by elimininating 1 or 2 pumps. Again, I contend that the user is unlikely to need the full capacity of the intelliflo, at which point the high speed losses may not be significant.

Peter, I misread the initial posting, youre right, he did not say he wanted to run everything at once. Either way, he would not save much if any money by buying 1 intelliflo over 2 single speeds.

Just to clarify, I want to purchase 1 intelliflo VF and 1 "regular" pump instead of 3 regular pumps as the PB initially suggested.

As power is more expensive during the day and from what I understand I have to have some circulation during the day on my pool due to the heat (100+) and direct sun in the afternoon. This means I can't run my pool only between 9pm and 9am when power is cheaper. If I use the intelliflo, I can utilize the low settings during the day when I need circulation and then the cleaning (higher flow) after 9pm when power is less expensive. It sounds to me like this will save me money in the long run.

Also, I don't want to run everything at once on one pump. There may be times when I run the laminars and spa at the same time, but the in floor wouldn't be running at the same time.

Jennifer

There is only a different charge on your electric if you have a special meter which are not all that common in the US. If you have a regular meter, the power company has no way to tell when you use the electric, it is all lumped together. I think with the high flow requirements you have, in floor and 2 "large" deck jets, it looks like the 2sp would be a better option, you just need to calculate it out. I know its hard to decide when you read the forums with all of the hype. When you look at it there are actually only a handfull of people posting that hype the intelliflo. To me, this makes it seem a little bigger than what it is. The reality is that the single and 2 spd pumps dominate the market. Youre never going to get everyone to agree on what is best your really going to need to draw your own conclusion. Use the power info TR provided, factor in the upcharge for the pumps and different automation then base it over how long you will be in the house or the pumps life expectancy. What part of the country are you in BTW?

subl1002 -

I am in Phoenix and yes, we are charged different amounts for power at different times of the day. Currently I am on a plan that is cheaper from 9pm to 9am m-f and on the weekends. The current rate for on-peak is just under $.16/kwh and off-peak is just over $.05/kwh. This means we do as much laundry, cooking, etc as possible after 9pm and on the weekends. Therefore we would be trying to get anything pool related to run after 9pm or on the weekend. If we need to run anything for the pool during the day, we would want it to be as efficient as possible.

I was told by another pb that due to the heat and sun in my area I would need to circulate the pool during the day some and not just at night. I have not discussed this with my pb,but he has indicated that this is not true.

I guess the two tiered power charges will be the norm in the not to distant future. If you can circulate the majority during off peak hours (will have to research this) the intelliflo is not going to pay itself back. Those night rates are cheap. If you got a 2sp and circulate at night, the additional costs for running the 2sp over the intellifo will be marginal, and the savings for running the deck jets and future waterfall with the high of the 2sp, which would be during the day/evening, will save you over the higher flows on the VF/VS quite possibly by a significant amount. Going off TRs 200watt figure (low 2 sp draw over intelliflo), at night it would cost you $2.40 more per month (if my calculation is correct) to run a 2 sp at low 8 hours per night over the intelliflo. At a $600 upcharge it will take 21 years to recoup. This is not factoring in the cost saving of the 2sp high vs the intelliflo higger speeds. Using this same scenario during the day your savings would be $8.00 per month or a breakeven in 6.25 years, this is just on circulation, no high speed and assuming the 200 watt differential is close to correct.