Looks pretty good to me. It seems to accomplish your goals. It's a bit far from the fridge to a landing space. Also, the island overhang isn't really adequate for seating, and the people will be in the walkway. Do you have another casual eating area, like a table in the family room? I'm assuming the open space is the family room...

I would want to change the orientation of the island and put the seating on the family room side. Maybe make it a peninsula instead. Oh! That's what you had! Can you tell us what didn't work about that?

Thanks plllog. The biggest problem is that the sink wall is not long enough to put the DW on the right side which would keep it away from the path of the cooktop. We are always in each other's way in the morning. The coffee pot is over there as well for some silly reason. The corner by the cooktop is totally inaccessible accept for this tiny narrow door. (go figure that one).

If you look at the photos in the link (hope it worked) you will see an eating area. I can't really decide what to do as far as the table there. Keep the old one, do something different? The outside door and window kind of limit my seating choices. (Sure wish I could do a banquette.)

I was thinking that I would have 8'' of overhang on the island. Is that too shallow for stools?

I have kind of lost my way on this plan - don't "see" it anymore.

Recommended overhang for counterheight seating is 15". 12" might do it, but you seem to have room for the 15". I know it'd leave less room behind the seating than the official recommendation, but if it were me, I think I'd deepen the island so that it was even with the side of the cabinet by the dining room doorway.

The corner of the island toward the fridge could be a great place for a 2nd sink (it'd take one of the seating spots as your island is drawn), leaving room for the coffee area where you show it, and improving the island as prep and baking space.

I have a prep sink on the corner of my island and my trash in the island as you show one of the options. It's nice to have it handy to prep, cooking, and cleanup areas.

rhome410 - so if I am standing at the island with the refrigerator to my back, the sink would be in front of me and on the range side of the island? I wonder if I could put one seat on the refrigerator side and one seat perpendicular to it on the eating area side. I was thinking about a little sink next to the refrigerator to help with the coffee pot but that won't help for prep and it makes the counter space so tight.

I am so relieved that you think I have room for the island and a bit wider one at that. Some previous threads gave me doubts.

I was having problems figuring out your pictures. Unlike most people, I do better on floor plans than actual photos. :-) So that's a breakfast area? Which will remain a breakfast area?

Given a proper table, so this isn't the only place to sit, your island seating isn't that big an issue. As Rhome410 said, you can make the overhang deeper. The stools and bodies will be in the same place no matter. And that will bring a landing area nearer the fridge.

Whether or not you want or need a prep sink is up to you, but that end of a wider island is the logical place for one.

The alternative layout I was thinking of would be to make the peninsula into a wider area with seating on the table side, with the cleanup sink and dishwasher on the kitchen side. That was to increase the seating, but you don't need that if you're happy with having a table.

Re banquettes, you might be able to do a long low one, maybe without a backrest, and make it very stylish. Another alternative would be to get a new set with the freestanding banquette benches, like they're showing nowadays.

Not sure if you have room for a seat on the end if you have a table, but maybe one that tucks under when the table is used.

There are people who would argue about leaving only 4 ft for seating when you need to get into the pantry, but I have 4 ft aisles and think it could work all right.

plllog - I know this is a dumb question but by peninsula you mean go back to the U shape but have the sink and DW in the "bar" end of the U? Interesting. I have to visualize this for a bit. I also need to get out there and search for the newer style banquette you mentioned. For some reason I am sick of my table and shuffling the chairs around.

rhome410 - I was thinking that with the prep sink that I would only have room for one stool but if there is room for two I wouldn't need the one on the end. (One stool for each kid is fine). The sink idea is appealing since that would be my spot to bake and chop. The space under the kitchen is an unfinished basement. Wonder how much it would add to my budget?

Thank you both for your input.

Yes, to the sink location, but with a much wider surface and a deep sink to keep splashing down. That would leave the area where the sink is in the plan for continuous counters as well. But if you did that you'd have more chairs (stools) and you might hate that!

Horchow.com has some round banquette dining sets but they also come in square/rectangular. But now we're into motivations: Why do you have to shuffle the chairs around your table? For mopping? Then you won't want any footed furniture, including the banquette style sets. I do think you could do a long, built in bench--under the window?--bottom of drawing. With a nice cushion, and a pedestal table. That would get rid of a lot of legs. :-)

My reason is certainly not mopping! LOL! The table tends to be the landing spot for everything. My husband took my computer desk and I am currently at the kitchen table (temporarily I hope). My daughter does homework here and has art lessons here. I don't know what I am feeling - maybe just want a new look, something cozier. We have a bedroom upstairs that has been converted into an office/classroom but I just don't like being up there for some reason. Guess I want to be where the action is.

Aha! So, do you want the action to move to the island? That would proabably happen if you did the big peninsula. Or are you looking for a little eating seating when the table is all covered with computer and art and school?

Just for speculative purposes: If you did do the big peninsula, and maybe do a long arc curving into the eating area to make it more table like, so you could see each other and be farther from the sink, you might be able to do some kind of long desk on the far wall and have sections for computer and study, and maybe a pullout deeper part for art. Then the area in front of the outside door would be pretty open.

OH RATS!! I just figured out that the reason I was confused about the whole table thing is that you're removing that wall.

Never mind that, but here's the crescent peninsula thing anyway. It's a really bad sketch, and would work better with a slider (which I thought you had until I looked more carefully), but here it is anyway. :-)

Processing, processing. I am working hard to visualize it. Another problem I had with the original peninsula was that I had to constantly go around it to reach the sink and the dish storage. Putting the sink there does away with that issue. I really need to think about this. Neat idea. It would make my husband happy since he loves our old peninsula. Back to visualizing...

I guess this would make it almost like a galley in a way? The one thing I would miss about the sink at the window is the ability to look at birds when I am doing dishes.

With kids, so hopefully helpers in the kitchen, I much prefer an island, which gives work areas on multiple sides, and makes for better, less congested traffic patterns. Peninsulas create dead ends and feel claustrophobic to me with anyone helping/cooking/baking/clearing or loading the dishwasher/gathering supplies to set the table all walking in one enclosed area. With the island there are alternatives for getting around the separate areas, and with the prep sink as I placed it, you have different zones for people to navigate in without running into others working around in different task areas.

I have been thinking about that sink idea all day. Putting it there would leave me plenty (well more) room to put the coffee put and other beverages over there next to the frige. I know this is silly but which way should the faucet be oriented. So if you stand with your back to the refrigerator the controls would be directly behind the sink that way? What size would you do?

I drew the faucet like I have mine (you probably couldn't tell what it was)...on a corner, so it's equally reachable from the stove or pantry sides of the island.

Here are photos to show how my prep sink fits into the layout of my kitchen. I'm happy with the location, the orientation of the faucet, as well as the size of both sink and faucet. Also, in the 2nd photo you can see the 4 ft aisle and see how wide you'd have between the island overhang edge and pantry. My island has 4 ft of cabinet under, so its counter top is about 8 inches wider than yours would be.

That's your kitchen? I love your kitchen. I just forgot who it belonged to! You have the exact door style I want.

You drew it right, I just misread it. So I should plan on the island being at least 3', 24'' cabinets with a 12'' or 15'' overhang?

Do you think I can keep my FD GE refrigerator if I move it back a few inches into the wall? I want to eventually get a built-in or CD but would love to put it off. I could always move the hinges to the left side so that if you are at the coffee/beverage spot it would open on that side.

Do you like your microwave where it is? That is an idea for me instead of the island.

Thanks again.

I like the island too (the peninsula was to show a different option), but I wouldn't put the sink there. I would want that for a landing area. In fact, I don't know that I'd do a second sink in this kitchen. Rather, I'd have a large single sink. The kitchen is compact enough that moving prep items out of the fridge and pantry, onto the island, to the sink for washing and back to the island for prep, is not a big deal. The second sink becomes important if you have one person baking while another is making dinner, or one person washing up while another person is making dinner, etc. I'm used to cooking for 45, two or three in a small galley, with one double bowl 30" sink against a wall. Works fine. In your open plan, with your large sink, I really don't see any problems. Keeping that view is important, however!

Another reason I wouldn't put the sink there in the islane is to keep the passage from the living room clear. There are already seated bodies in it.

That's me, however, and I'm offering these just as thinking points.

Re the fridge, I know it's hard to think long term when looking at a budget, but it's worth trying to get your final result all together. If you like your fridge, sure, go ahead and see if you can recess it. But expect to replace it with something similar. Yes, you can unrecess, but will you?

If what you really really want is built in, then plan for that, and if you have the old fridge annoying you until you buy the new one, well that's just something that will push you not to divert your fridge money. But if you can afford getting the fridge you really want, go for it. The cabinetry is going to be different, depending on your choice, and it's not fun redoing it, especially in a nearly new kitchen.

plllog - I really appreciate your showing me different options. I like to know all of the possibilities before I make a decision.

The original plan was to put a little sink over next to the refrigerator just so my husband could fill up the coffee pot. I think I would only have 36'' so I don't know if I have room to that over that even with the tiny coffee pot we have. The sink in the island was one way to keep the sink idea but not try to cram it in that small space. I understand about the pathway. It is not a have to have thing but something to think about.

The wish for a larger sink was what started us on this wonderful journey of a complete remodel. Funny how that works?

My designer friend hates that refrigerator and was so upset when she saw it. I told her about the sale at Expo and she envisioned me getting the Sub Zero of my dreams. Of course I missed it but I will really give it some thought. I know redoing the cabinetry would cost me some $$$ and aggravation later. I am going to go stare at my budget spreadsheet and see what I can do.

I would make the island 42" deep (24" + 18" for sink cab and overhang)...That will make it even with the left end of your stove run, won't it?

As you can see from my kitchen, I don't make fridge landing space a top priority and have no problem at all taking things from the fridge to the sink or off to one side of it. You also have the counter to the left of the range, which is close and can serve as landing area when necessary.

I would definitely recess the fridge if you can and if you want to keep your fridge for awhile. A French door should work fine for your layout...Of course for your coffee area, it would be best to have hinges on the left when the time comes to replace it. If you put your current fridge into the wall a bit, you can always buy a counter-depth later and sit it forward. Of course, built-in fridges have different requirements of which I'm not familiar, so if that's your dream, you might check some specs and see what it will take to change out later.

Oh! That's a sink! I thought that was the coffee pot! For a plan that I can envision (some just don't jump in my imagination) I sure do get the details wrong! Well, then, you want the sink. And I think the island is better than the coffee counter. Maybe move it over a little? Center it on the end facing the range? That could be a little tight tush to tush but workable.

I just would hate that sink right next to the passage and right next to the seating. I always think of island sinks opposite or at angles to the seating. Otherwise, there's nowhere to put anything. Imagining myself in the kitchen I keep seeing myself shooing people away from the island stools. I think the difference from Rhome's is the direction one approaches from.

I don't know. I'm blathering. Posting on the chance that it might be helpful.

More justification for sink on the corner ;-) :

If the prep sink was centered on the stove end, the prep space next to it across from the stove would be lost. I have great space next to my cooktop, but I wash things in the prep sink, chop them next to it, then turn to put them in the pan on the stove. Aaand, someone can empty, rinse, and fill the coffee pot, or wash lettuce and prepare salad, or people seated at the island can wash hands, get a drink of water, or empty and fill a dish for their watercolor project :-) without getting in the cook's way.

This is like a tennis match...Back and forth, back and forth...

You mean you didn't recognize that weird scribble in the corner as a sink? ;) I know that was a terrible attempt at representing it.

It could be now that the counter to the right of the sink is now accessible, the coffee pot could go there. You can't really get it to there now because of the peninsula. I must think about this.

I will take any bit of blathering that anyone here wants to hand out! Once I have the base cabinets straight I am going to take a stab at placing the wall cabinets and post another thread. Hope you will be up for round two.

Thanks again.

Rhome, excellent point. Ball back to you!

You guys are great!

rhome410 - you had me at "fill coffee pot". LOL! The watercolor reference is what really got my attention!

Still thinking.

Hey rhome410 - are your cabinets custom? I searched but couldn't quite find your list of resources.

I guess you could call them custom...We call them "DIY so we can afford them!" :-) I am blessed with a very skilled DH. I design, and he builds to suit!

Wow! So lucky to make such a good team. My husband did not get the handy gene. He is handy with computers though! Oh well.

Odiegirl, did you tell us the size of your family? How many kids and pets. How many people help with the cooking and cleanup, etc.?

The tennis match you've been watching is between a woman with 8 kids and one with none. While I could easily have half a dozen people trying to sit at an island designed for three, and totally in my way, none of them are doing projects, and they'll go to the powder room to wash up. I shoo grown-ups out of the kitchen all the time, but, of course, the kids belong. :-)

I think you have one husband and one daughter? Which puts you right between us. :-)

plllog -

8 kids?!! Huge hats off to rhome! Words cannot express how amazing I think that is especially because her responses are so friendly and cheerful! Just kidding.

No pets because of allergies. :( I am definitely more toward your end - one 8 year old daughter and one 11 year old boy. Maybe the amount of art projects generated by the 8 year old is equal to at least 3 kids so I could say I have the mess of 4 kids. LOL!

The kitchen and the den are where we live. Every time we have guests we always end up in the kitchen. It will be very nice when there is comfy seating without a wall separating it from the kitchen. All I do is walk around that wall, back and forth. We had 60 people here for a party and there were everywhere except the den.

I very much appreciate the input. I feel like I have a little more direction. Now on to selecting the cabinets and the final layout.

AHA! That cooking for 60 is something I can certainly relate to! (Actually I can relate to two kids, but rely on rhome410 (sound it out) to explain how larger families work.)

I don't know how your family room lays out, but encourage you to search for threads about multiple islands, and check the Finished Kitchen Blog as well. Something that might help with all those people wanting to be in the kitchen, and define the areas for you, would be to have a really big seating island where your breakfast area and den wall are now. It could then be partly kitchen area and partly den, and substitute for the wall in separating the spaces, while keeping them continuous and open.

You might not like it for the same reason you don't like the wall--having to go around it and all. But what you could do is put a beverage/snack area in one part (microwave, beverage fridge, maybe even an icemaker), and, unless you need more kitchen storage, art drawers and desk stuff drawers. Maybe even have a coffee maker cubby and sink for that, art, etc., as well as overflow food prep when needed. A great project area. And party central.

That might be more than your house can take, or it might be a budget buster, but it might be worth considering.

Since you want a new table, etc., you could also do something similar, sans plumbing, by combining some freestanding pieces (2 desks and a table, maybe) with a unifying surface on top.

I need help with one more decision. Where do I put the microwave? I was thinking about putting it on a shelf in the middle of the island or in a wall cabinet next to the refrigerator or under the cabinet there. Having it next the refrigerator seems like it would lessen the travel across the kitchen. Pretty sure I don't want the drawer. We use it for cooking bacon and reheating leftovers so having it at eye level is appealing. On the other hand I have two kids, ages 8 and 11, that will be using the microwave more. I don't know why this has me so stuck.

I am pretty sure that I won't have a sink next to the refrigerator as it shows in the layout. I would love to do one on the corner of the island as rhome suggested.

I wanted to put out entirely another option. That of NOT having seating in the kitchen at all!

You deepen the fridge wall so it has deep counters with the fridge moved to the far right (so it's not separated from your space by the island) and the coffee/prep on the left next to the dining room.

You move the door over to accomodate that and instead of having the island with seating you put in 24" base cabs on one side and 12" wall cabs on the other (or whatever will fit I didn't do real measurements) which gives more storage to help replace the pantry I absorbed in the coffee area.

Then the whole kitchen could even be a little ... shorter? less long? to create more room for the dining table. Some people are BIG on having the kids on the island but with how close the dining area is I don't think you'd see a real difference is proximity. They'd just be far enough away that you can unload the groceries without tipping you.

I took a red "pen" on the paint program and doodled it... then realized I'm still too lazy to open a picture account somewhere. *SIGH*

Are you saying to move the refrigerator to the range wall or the sink wall?

(if you're asking me) I'd was saying leave the fridge on the wall it's on but move it down to the right as you face it. That way the "triangle" isn't broken by the actual island just the walkway. By deepening the counters you'll have a "built in" fridge without a "built in" price and everything will be flushish.

That gives you (assuming 6" to a square) 7 to 8 feet of countertop to the left of it. Plenty of room for that prep sink/coffee area and still have tons of wall storage.

I feel like that hinges on being able to move that door over six inches which, in my book, means no eating at the island. You can do a toekick all the way around the island so people can still stand at both sides to prepare foods/show homework but no stools.

I would put the microwave in the bottom of the upper cabinet next to the fridge. It's handy to the fridge, the prep sink, and the stove, while also in a place that's out of your way if other people want to use it while you're cooking.

I have been through all of those and I think you are right rhome. I just can't see having it underneath especially without it being a drawer. I want that to be our little snack corner anyway. I am going to reverse the hinges on the refrigerator so it is easy to get into from that countertop.

morge - I totally see what you are seeing and I seriously thought about ripping out the pantry but it is so nice as a walk-in right now. The other thing is that my budget is already stretched to the limit. The back of it also has a chase which is difficult to work around.

Budget is often a buster for sure! My "plan" calls for more cabinets and more ctops so the numbers go up pretty quickly even if you nock some inches off the total runs.

Don't forget to post progress as you move along!