Hi again dotmom,

I am somewhat concerned about your publishing your opinion, justified as it may be in your mind, about this woman's action with regard to you.

Were it to come to a showdown, it's pretty well your word against hers.

You'll recall that there's a fairly strong tendency in the U.S., where one finds more lawyers per 100,000 population than most anywhere else in the world, all of whom like to eat, to litigate.

Were she to get her back really up and sue ... remember how expensive lawyers are, and I expect that you'd feel that you'd need one ... apart from whatever judgement might be delivered against you ... and which would likely mean that you'd have to pay her lawyer's/(lawyers'?) bills, as well, were you to lose.

I doubt that you'd enjoy an ongoing diet of only potatoes, or whatever low-cost food may be available in your area, over the long term.

ole joyful

Did you actually see her steal them? It seems like you expect everyone to treat her like a thief because you are convinced she is one, even though there's no proof. You may believe it beyond a shadow of a doubt but why should everyone else? I know I wouldn't pick my friends based on the accusations of someone else, especially if there was no proof.

I don't think it's a good idea to go around telling everyone that she is a thief or implying that she is a drug dealer unless you're prepared for potential slander charges.

Well, I for one believe that she stole the pills but I will agree that you should just let it go. She sounds like the type of person that would do just as Joyful has suggested. It's not worth the hassle to you. I don't know if you knew that the party thrower was friends with Shelly, but you do now so I would steer clear of her, also. But I understand your outrage, for sure.

I'd let it go too especially where you live and just be "out of quarters" or broke next time she needs money.

I do think it is your right not to be social with them if you don't want to be.

I would warn the host to hide her meds and I would not go. Better still put some meds out and see if they disappear. It would be worth buying a refill to find out.

I wouldn't give any explanation why you are not going. Maybe Shelly will stop there first. Hugs, Dottie...I think you are dead on who took those pills.

I had something very similar happen in my house with someone I considered a friend, there was no doubt or possibility that anyone else could have been the thief, when confronted by me she of course denied it. I simply cut off all communications with her. I saw no reason to get my blood pressure up over her bad actions and felt no desire to go on a bad mouthing campaign. I figured in time Karma would step in and take care of the matter. In fact it did. A few months later she was caught using a forged prescription for drugs. She was found guilty and sent to prison.
I knew I was right I knew if that is the kind of person she was others would soon find out too and she would end up paying one way or another. It worked out.

Life is way too short for anyone to deal with that kind of stuff, just let it go, it will take care of itself and those that trust her will likely find out just what kind of person she is in the end too.
I agree that kind of person is just the type to try to set you up for a slander suit and cost you a lot of money.

And not all lawyers are in the "sue your neighbor" profession. The highest concentration of lawyers is in DC.

I think the same, let it go. There is a slight "possibility" she didn't take it. You can't do anything about it but forgive & forget at this point. Maybe if you get friendly with her again the truth will come out. WWJD?

for your own health and well being.. I agree just let it go....You cannot change the past, you might not trust her again, or leave your self in that situation, but just take a deep breath and let it go....

You have said your piece about her taking the meds, and so now it is time to let go of it. It is done, it is past, and there is no point in going back there again. If it were me, I would simply not avail myself to her needs as you once did. Let God handle it, and He will in His own good time... She knows the truth, and if she did take them, then she will have to answer for it... In the meantime, don't let it get to you.. it really is a small thing in the grand scheme of things...

But, no I wouldn't go to the party either...

Happy Birthday

Carolyn

Forgiveness isn't an entitlement that a victim owes to a transgressor;
forgiveness is supposed to follow confession & atonement & a humble request for it from the transgressor.

I do know that dishonest people are almost always more convincing than honest ones;
if they weren't, what they're doing wouldn't work for them.

I think I'd wash my hands of the whole bunch of these people;
they'll believe you when they start missing valuables themselves.

I know this sounds harsh but bottom line, they really don't care. That's just life. If she didn't do something against them personally, they don't care what she 'could' have done to you.

The party planner is trying to be nice to you by including you in the party as both an attendee and a celebrant. She doesn't mean any harm.

People have to deal with, work with, associate with and party with people they don't like everyday. Even in cliques, at any given time, some of the girls may hate each other. It's life. I can understand you may not want to attend the party for your own personal reasons but to be upset with the person planning it for inviting you is kind of self centered.

Untill today, I HAVE just let it go and haven't spoken of it for well over a month. Forgive and forget Nada! She accosted me in the hall one day and tried to shove a paper in my face saying here is the truth that she can't take those pills because she's allergic, this was written by her Dr. I calmly pushed it aside and told her there were other things she can do with those pills besides taking them herself....I understand people get quite a lot of money for them out on the street corner. I have been told by another neighbor that Police have been at her Apt several times besides the night I called them, on suspicion of selling. The main point of my rant was my being offended by my neighbor wanting to combine her b'day with mine, especially when she knows how I feel and the favors I have done for her. Plus, she has had knee replacement in both knees this year, and has said herself, she hides her medication in case Shelly comes over. As for being sued, I'm pretty sure she doesn't come to The Table. She doesn't have a computer. Guess I'll just keep stuff to myself from now on.

Dotmom, I think people were only advising you to watch what you put in writing to be helpful, not to chastise you.

There's times I advise caution on items for the potential of a suit but at this point nobody has been identified, and proving damages is highly unlikely. And damages are required to win a suit. However it should also be pointed out that a civil case is decided on preponderance of evidence, not guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. In court, circumstantial evidence is quite powerful and can be convincing. They were there, she was there, after she left they were gone. And when you look at the credibility of the witnesses there's a possibility that her past could work against her in credibility too. I would certainly not taunt her into a suit and would be reasonably cautious about what I say, but I wouldn't be dissuaded from stating the situation as put, when needed.

I understand how you feel Dotmom. After a number of things that have happened to me I've learned to try to not let it bother me when I can't do anything about it. And it ain't exactly easy at times! I think you have learned it too. This was just something that got to you. I don't know the details of how close they are, or how well she knows the situation and history. It could be she doesn't know and if that's the case it's forgivable. It could be she was trying to use this to sort of patch things up. If that's the case, it's understandable but I don't personally care for people who try to mend everyone else's fences. It could also be she's just plain stupid. You would know better than I, but it could be something innocent and her intentions could have been honorable.

I wouldn't go to the party either. I wouldn't make an excuse though. If she asked why, I wouldn't get worked up, I *would* however simply say "I don't care to associate with her." I've used that line a number of times and I leave it at that. Stories float around, gossip passes and people like a good story far better than the truth.

Forgive and forget is another of those childish phrases along with agree to disagree and constitute a pet peeve of mine. There are some things that are unforgivable. I'm not out to let people use me and then be expected to automatically forgive them because of a chant. Nope. Doesn't happen that way. That said, I won't dwell on it either. I'll "let it go" as they say, but forgiving is often condoning the actions and that's not going to happen too often either. If they apologize and accept responsibility and make up for it, then forgiveness is a possibility. But even then, I don't want to forget either. Why would a rational person set themself up to be used or abused again? When you get burned, you remember and avoid letting it happen again.

My two unsolicited suggestions: First, don't make a rash decision about cutting yourself off from this person until you're sure of the situation and thought about it when you're calm. You certainly can be cool toward her for a while while you ponder it if need be but I wouldn't make a rash decision. Secondly, call Buster over. I'd recommend 15-30 minutes of laptime immediately! :) I guess I have one more suggestion, pop in a Celtic Thunder DVD and grab a soothing beverage before call Buster over! It's amazing how that can relax a person. Works for me anyway.

Hey, I understand why you're upset about the invite. I think the best way to let them know you would rather not go is just to say as cynic said. You would rather not be associated with the woman. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Don't let her get your blood pressure up. Then she wins. Not that it's a contest, but don't let her have that type of control over you.

Smile and know you're a good person.

Thanks Kiddos....especially to my friend Cynic. As usual your wisdom calmed me down and gave me another perspective. One of the things that has puzzled me all day....is my reaction to this drama today. It really isn't like me. I plan to just let it go. Let go, the theft..again, hopefully for good, and the other neighbor. She is well aware of everything that goes on in the Bldg, and I;ll try to avoid her for at least a while. As for Buster, he seems to know I'm in a snit, so he has spent a lot of time on my lap giving me purr-therapy.

Forgiving the transgressor is not about having the sinner atone or apologize. It's letting it go out of your own heart. It has nothing to do with the thief, and everything to do with you letting it go. It's eating at your soul. Do you have to forget? NO! But forgive for your own sake and move on.

Sushipup, I understand what you are saying, and I have asked/Prayed for this bitter feeling to leave me, but those pills were given to my hubs for searing.....searing pain in his back which, shortly after, was found to be caused by an abdominal aneurysm which the Dr said would probably have burst in just a matter on months if not discovered and operated on. The fact that Hubs had a bad reaction to the pills, doesn't even come into play, because they were Ours, and our Dr was trying to find a way Hubs could take them for relief from the pain. This was a very scary and awful time for us, and to be violated like that by a so-called friend in our own home....well, forgiveness will be a long time acoming.

It's not easy, and it's not instant, but you know that you'll feel better when you finally do reach that point. I guess it's something that we as humans strive towards.

I heard Dr. Luskin of Stanford give a talk about the Stanford Forgiveness Project, and it was powerful. Check out some of the stories on the UK project that was based on his work.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Forgiveness Project

This quote by Booker T Washingotn usually helps me...

"I will permit no man to narrow & degrade my soul by making me hate him"

I really like Cynics reply... and want to add my name to it.

Happy Birthday Dottie!!! Celebrate it your way!

Moni

I'm not going to comment on this particular matter, but Cynic, at least in this case, I think your general statement on "slander" is somewhat incorrect.

Althouh Dot has never mentioned the name of this particular person on the internet, it appears she may have already done so in her private life, & in slander, all it takes is "one" person overhearing a possible slanderous statement to get a lawsuit ball rolling.

Also though "damages" (generally meaning economic effects as the result of a slanderous statement(s)) are required to win a slander suit, there are four situations which override this, legally known as "slander per se". One of these is accusing someone of committing a criminal act by someone "overhearing". Dot may have done this already.

Just a word to the wise....

I agree with Cynic, too. Especially the part about forgiveness. I see those stories in the paper all the time about how people forgive the person who raped, bludgeoned and murdered their loved one. Sorry, it just isn't that easy for me. For big things like I mentioned or for small ones. I don't think my heart would feel one bit better by forgiving.

By now the party has come and gone I guess. All I can say is what I would do in this case.

I would thank the neighbor for the invitation, and for including my birthday. I would go to the party and be my usual self.

This way the others will see you having a nice time, rather than talking later about why you weren't there. Your problem is just with the one "bad apple." Be the good neighbor you are.

"If there is to be Peace on Earth, let it begin with me."

Sue

dotmon stick to your guns...i wouldn't want to be around anyone who has taken something from me...forgive and forget? not likely with the price of meds these days...our ins has changed again and one of dh's 'scrips was $100 yesterday! right now we can afford it but if i were on a fixed income, i'd be hard pressed! plus to replace it would cost full price, as ins won't pick up the tab...

btw, enjoy your birthday!

Dotman, Happy Bithday !!! just remember forgivness has nothing to do with the offender. Is is you letting go of the negativity. It is for your benefit..not for your neighbor...Best of luck to you.

Hi again dotmom,

I'm really sorry if you felt that I was criticizing you: in no way was that my intent.

I just felt that, lacking proof, you were putting yourself at serious risk by making the accusations that you were to some of your neighbours in your building.

Someone said that they doubted that the offender would be reading here, but that was not the point, as far as I was concerned: if she wanted to charge you, she could call some of your neighbours as witnesses, it appeared.

A big lawsuit is something that you don't need.

Possible bankruptcy even less.

I hope that you can get to the place where you don't let it bother you much, any more: you have your life to live. Don't let your reaction to someething that someone else does come to have that much power over you. It's up to you to be in charge of your own life, not let someone else have that much power over even a smallish portion of it.

Good wishes for the days ahead.

ole joyful

Seems like you cannot always avoid this horrible person. For your own sanity, put the incident behind you. You don't have to invite her for coffee, but it seems you have friends in common. If anyone asks you about her, feel free to explain the missing pills caper, but don't dwell on it. When you see her, look the other way. Pretend to be very very "busy". Sorry you have to be in this situation. I can see it's really eating at you. Do your best to ignore her.

OK, I;'m going to say this and then put it all behind me. I still don't understand my (seems like) viral reaction to the neighbors invite, to the get-together for the SUSPECTED thief, and I probably would still have done what I did, and tell the caller I had errands to do, which I did. It might have been when she decided to throw in my b'day into the mix like an after thought. I just didn't understand why she thought I would celebrate my b'day with the offending person. I do know another neighbor is planning a cake/ coffee meet for my b'day later this month. If the SUSPECTED thief comes to that, I'll just buck up and be polite, but cool towards her. THAT IS THE END OF THE STOLEN PILL SAGA. I am ( and actually did, until this b'day thing came up) putting it behind me. Nuff said!

Happy belated birthday, Dotmom.
You did the right thing. I think I'd feel the same way -- I'm not so much a believer in karma anymore, seeing people never get what they deserve (and I don't care if that happens in heaven or hell--I'm sure not going to get the satisfaction of witnessing it!). And I don't always feel liking putting on a smiley-smiley face when something's annoying me.

"Polite but cool" is a good way to deal with her.

Are the majority of neighbors very social with each other? I think that if I were living there, I'd try to change this type of birthday gathering. Birthday cake/coffee meets for one person at a time will usually inadvertently leave someone out -- maybe somebody hasn't vocalized when his/her birthday is. At the senior center where my mom spent a lot of time, they had a monthly birthday party for every birthday baby for that month. Sometimes group parties are more equitable. For every "celebrated" birthday boy or girl, there's someone else who might be feeling left out.

I wouldn't have liked that afterthought feeling, either. (Esp since I'd think that every other neighbor was already told that it was for the other woman -- it'd be very uncomfortable to be the person they say "Oh, it's Julie's birthday, too, by the way!" about.

I'm certainly not going to challenge kfca37's legal expertise but I don't believe MN has the eavesdropping provision mentioned. And additionally, the "per se" provisions call for "serious criminal misbehavior" not just "criminal behavior" (there's a big difference) and as said I'm not going to debate the eavesdropping part.

Looking at the intent of Defamation Per se, the example criteria you didn't mention include the classic examples of serious sexual misconduct; allegations of serious criminal misbehavior; or allegations that a person is afflicted with a loathsome disease. The historical examples of loathsome diseases are leprosy and venereal diseases. Today, to suggest someone has AIDS would likely meet the criteria. It certainly is an exaggeration to suggest that anything here, even if your purported allegations were true, rise to this level.

My opinions stand, and of course weren't and aren't intended as a legal opinion and accordingly shouldn't be taken as such.

I certainly understand what you were saying and how you feel. I would feel the same way.