Here are some pictures. There is an old pressure pump from an early cleaning system. Can it's piping be adapted to install an auto fill? Thanks again.

Pump is off due to leak.

Spa.

Pool equipment is behind the camera on the left.

Heater used to be on the left.

Old pressure pump to be removed. Can I use the line for an auto fill?

Filter pump is close to camera. Solar valves on top of equipment.

Yikes! That setup is almost worthy of an entry in the Service Industry News Horror File!

There are lots of options available depending on your budget. If you don't have too many things to control, you might consider an EasyTouch 4 AUX system with the IntelliChlor salt chlorine generator. Get an IntelliFlo VS pump or two (it will pays itself back within a year or two). Then add a Pentair Clean & Clear cartridge filter and you will be all set.

Thanks landa mac. I wish to include as much into the control system. There is a solar system. I am also interested in color changing lights. There was another pool build where wrkinman and poolguynj were concerned the plumbing was too small in diameter to realize an energy savings. The pumps might be working too hard. I want to avoid an overbuild, but not for budget reasons, only for enegry reasons. Also what size heater? We are on propane. Thanks.

Your equipment list would look something like this:

IntelliFlo VS pump for filter
Whisperflo for spa jet pump (could use VS but you won't use your jet pump that often)
EasyTouch 4 or 8 Pool/Spa system with IntelliChlor IC40. Comes with 2 valve actuators (intake/return) and can also control another actuator for your solar system.
IntelliBrite LED Color lights (pool & spa)
MasterTemp 400

Thanks for a quick response.

Is there a benifit to going with an IC40? The pool/spa adds up to less than 20,000 gallons.

Will a single pump handle my pool? If so, how would I adapt the spa and pool together?

Can the 1" line, from the old pool cleaner to the pool, Be turned into an auto fill setup?
The list provided is Pentair. I think it is correct to match all equipment. Is there an idea on what the cost may be?

Is there an answer to the 2" lines being to small that a VS pump might not have the same payback time?
Thanks again.

Simply put, the IC40 won't have to work as hard should have a longer life.

Some other things I noticed in the thread.

Is there a side suction for the spa too? The single source suction there scares me. If not, then converting the pool return in there to a spa suction should be considered.

You could then tie the spa booster pump lines and suction to the pool pump and plumb them to come on/off with valve actuators. If you adjust the return actuator, you can get a constant flow into the spa when in pool filtering mode. This will also eliminate the spa boost pump. Your six jets in the spa and its available plumbing combined with the Pentair VF should provide plenty of action in the spa.

You will need a third valve actuator for your solar too.

While the pool sweep line could be used for an auto-fill, it would need to be raised the 3 feet to say the equipment is below the water line. This is because most auto-fill devices function using a float switch, similar in function to most common toilets. I personally don't like them as it makes it hard to see if a leak exists. I would use the line for it's intended purpose, pick up a Polaris or Legend and run it off the VS by adjusting the valve actuator(#4) to divert sufficient water to drive it (bye to that old pump too!).

Thanks poolguynj.

The suction for the booster pump is from a floor drain and returns to four of the six jets. When the filter pump valves are set to "spa" It also sucks from the same floor drain and returns to the remaining two jets. When it is adjusted to "pool" it sucks from the skimmer and returns to two ports in the pool and one in the spa, creating an overflow into the pool. There is no side suction in the spa, only the floor.
You mention a VF pump. The VS was mentioned earlier. Please explain.

We are on the slow path to improving our backyard, both pool and landscape. Intelitouch or Easytouch?

This forum is great. Thanks again.

PS. Are you concerned with plumbing size?

Also, My understanding was the heater flowed to two jets to keep the water in the heater longer. Will this be affected by going out six jets?
Is it a question of comfort to sit in front of a jet with a consistent temp while other jets have change with heater demand?

Cartridge vs DE? What size is best?

Sorry for all the questions. Since the setup in the photo drew attention I am not sure of what may be correct.

Thanks again.

Am I to understand that when the pool pump system has it's valves set to spa, is turned on and the spa booster pump is on, both pumps are pulling from a single drain?

That is an over loaded drain and MAJOR MAJOR SAFETY HAZARD! Your two pumps can pull over 200 gallons per minute. The drain can probably handle at the most 120 gpm and in all likelihood, less. If someone gets stuck, someone will either die or wish they did.

This makes my earlier suggestion wrt the pump and plumbing configuration all the more imperative.

It also changes my pump recommendation to the Pentair VF with the built in suction release which shuts the pump off if it senses a suction blockage.

You asked what's different between the VS and VF pumps. The motor and wet end are the same. The main difference is the the on board controller for the VF is substantially more intelligent. In your case, this intelligence is needed! The pump will take longer to pay for itself in energy savings but since it can save someone's life, I think it's a no brainer.

Now, about the heater and the number of jets. Someone told you something thats not true. Heaters typically let no more than 50 gpm thru the heat exchanger. The rest is bypassed and redirected to the return line. The water that does get heated gets really hot and then hits the unheated and bypassed return water flow. Your spa will be heated from 80 to 100 in about 20 minutes either way. It is nice to not have to fight for the heated returns though. :-)

For a new filter, I like the Quad-DE with a 2" multiport. While the multiport adds some resistance to waterflow, it allows more thorough backwashing ( with rinse), water level lowering using the waste setting and the closed setting for service. It is, in fact, both a cartridge and DE filter in one.

I would also like to strongly suggest you both visit Pentair''s web site at:

http://www.pentairpool.com/index.htm

and since this is a pretty substantial updating, ask Pentair who in your neck of the woods would they suggest you use. This is not a low bidder type of job.

I hope this helps you to understand what you have to do to get where you want to be safely. The equipment recommendations will be pricey. The automation and heater will be comparable to other manufacturers but the pump may give a slight jolt. Remember, it's going to replace 3 pumps and substantially improve safety and reduce your power consumption by a great deal.

Best Wishes;

Scott

The pump that you would want is the IntelliFlo VS+SVRS. It's suction blockage capabilities cannot be turned off.

There is no really benefit to slowing down the water flow, except for condensation control. Most heaters on the market use thermostats to keep this under control.

I would tie all the jets together, the variable speed pumps can handle typically 8 jets with no problems, on a system with a filter and a heater.

You can use the Booster pump line as an autofill, I would suggest using an electronic one and turning the return line into a stand pipe. I doesn't need to go 3' above water level, just slightly above.

I agree that the Easy Touch 4P w/ IC40 combo is a really good deal, for a good controller.

I wouldn't put a 400,000 btu Heater on system without first checking that the fuel source will be able to handle it.

Racket is right about sizing the heater. 400K is a bit much for a pool your size. 300K is a better and more cost effective size.

I am curious about your suggestion of an electronic autofill. My experience has been builders putting solenoid based valves on a water source with an egg timer to tun it off after activation. Activation came by manually pressing a button on the controller. Are you suggesting this or is there something I am missing?

I didn't say three feet above the water, did I? If I did, I meant 3' in the air at the equipment pad because the home owner mentioned the equipment was 3 feet below the water line of the either the pool or spa. He has a flooded suction.

poolguynj-

I think racket was referring to an electronic water leveling system. Ours is a Levelor system, but I think there are others out there that work on the same principle...a time delayed water sensor that automatically opens a solenoid valve to let water into the pool until the sensor is submerged in water again.

racket - Is it true that just the SVRS by itself is enough to satisfy the new drain codes....my interpretation was the SVRS is one component of the safety system, but providing proper mechanical means for suction was also required...ie, 2 drains minimum 4' or so from one another or a single drain that has a minimum 3.5" or so from the top of drain to suction pipe such as the Paramount MDX floor drain. Just curious how this new and important safey law is being implemented in the field......

Sorry to Hijack!

Poolguy NJ, 300k may even be too big if the gas line cannot support it. I'd size the heater to the gas line, unless you can get a 2psi set, or want to run a new gas line.

Tr.

It really depends on the municipality. SVRS plus VGB approved grates rated for the proper flow rates should meet the federal codes. It's really a grey area if you are replacing a pump if you need to make sure that everything else applies. We are taking it on a case by case basis.

The dual drains must be 3'-6' and hydraulically balanced. We use a tee with equal distance between each suction point as hydraulic balance. You do not need an SVRS device on a pool with dual drains (to comply with federal laws many states have more stringent requirements).

The MDX is not going to be accepted by our health dept, which is going to be more stringent than the federal requirements.

on residential projects we can pretty much do whatever we want, since there is no real oversight, but we try our hardest to comply with the federal law.

Krikey! What a great point about the saftey of the drain. The drain in the center of the spa(2nd picture) is the only one. This is an important consideration.

There is only one drain in the floor of the pool. This has been plugged at the skimmer with the Navigator vac setup.

Will the Navigator with the VacMate cause a suction problem for whatever saftey feature senses the suction at the pump?

If I plug the pool return in the spa and use the six jets for the return:

1. Does the valve allow for a partial setting to maintain the waterfall to the pool?
2. Should I allow the pump to draw partialy from the spa drain?
   3)Are these partial settings programable into the control systems?

The Hayward has done a great job with is's cleaning. Will the Polaris or Legend pick up the small debris as well?

Thank you again!

1. Yes you can set it so it floods the spa, it may actually work better now.

2. Absolutely not, you are better off returning a little bit of pool water through the spa on a continuous basis.

3. Partial, no its typically either all or nothing.. Pentair talked about making Intellivalves that would have multiple stop points but as of now they are just a pipe dream. You can have the bypass that puts pool water in on a solenoid valve, and have that controlled on/off by the controller.

4. The yes both cleaners will pick up small debris.

If I remember, HereToPlease removed his old heater. I don't thin supply will be an issue.

I never size a heater by the gas supply. It can be upgraded if needed.

WRT to the drain and VGB, VGB is commercial pool applicable only.

Changing the pool return that is in the spa to a suction line tied to the spa's drain with a drain cover is what I suggested will help reduce the entrapment risk, The pump 's SVRS will help ensure this stays minimalized.

When using the spa with a single pump, the waterfall is out, as would be the pool sweep. It would drain the spa.

The Polaris and Legend would both be faster and highly effective for cleaning the pool of debris. You'll wonder why you accepted the Navigator's performance.

Yes, the Navigator would likely have problems with the new pump's suction release.

When using the spa, all suction and return flow should be spa-centric or you'll either drain the spa or lose heated water to the overflow into the pool.

Valve actuators, when turned on, only know two things, go left or go right until making the internal micro switch. Where the internal cams meet the micro switches is settable but there are no middle settings between the switches.

I will be at the Pool and Spa show in Atlantic City today. I will check the electronic auto-fill vendors and see whats needed to retro fit.

Good morning.
Is the "solenoid" a two port valve or something different? What size piping would the bypass be?

I get the idea of the pool return becoming an additional suction in the spa. I will do that.

The LP line is 3/4" and the tank is 250gal. Our home has solar electric. Does a heat pump make sense? Will these heat a spa? We really are trying to minimize paying "the man" for energy.

Thanks again.

"I will check the electronic auto-fill vendors and see whats needed to retro fit. "

The most common one is Levelor, which is now owned by jandy.

A solenoid is a relatively strong actuator. They come in many sizes and shapes. Flippers for a pinball game and zone controls for those with hot water heat are two examples you may be familiar with. The solenoid will open and close a small valve. That valve is connected to the return lines of the pool and a water source.

A heat pump is not a good option for a spa. They take too long to heat it. You already have solar for the pool.

I didn't see the autofill's at the Jandy booth but will look again tomorrow.

Since you have LP for gas, I doubt the gas supply will be a problem. I have yet to meet an LP supplier that wouldn't swap or adjust a regulator if needed.

Hey racket, do you cover Westchester county in NY and are you at r ging to the show in AC?

I am in Seattle, You couldn't pay me to goto Atlantic city.

The advice here makes sense to me. This is the list I may go with. Some components seem to need other pieces to make them function. Such as selecting a valve style to go with the filter.

Pump: VS+SVRS (011017)
Control/SWG: 8SC-IC40 (520545)
Panel: Indoor Control(520549)
Filter: Quad DE80 (188593)
Heater: Mastertemp300 (460735)

These are my major purchases. Can you help me build the rest of the list? Valves, solenoid, etc.
The pool return in the spa is a 1" Line if this makes a difference on the conversion to suction.
Reading here about peoples solar concerns made me double check what is on my roof. There is no vacuum break on this setup. So I need advise on this also.
Does the Easytouch include all the sensors to make the solar function?

You'll need 2 additional valve actuators. One for the pool sweep and one for the solar.

It comes with a water temp sensor. You'll only need one.

I don't have my parts/whole goods book handy. Is that the heater number for the heater using LP? If not, the conversion kit is inexpensive and easy to install.

If the spa line is only 1", it just won't pulling as much water. Do put a drain cover on the side suction.

Thanks racket for the clarification on VGB compliance. I feel better about our pool....each of our pumps has a balanced/dual drain.

Great thread heretoplease!

Thanks on the thread complement. It is my first.

Any reaction to the solar setup and lack of a break?
The lines go 20' feet horizontal to the house. They then rise 13' to the roof. Then they lay on a mostly flat roof and travel another 90'. The tops of the panels are 18' above the pump height. There are 10 Fafco 10'x4' panels.

There are three valves on the solar. Which one becomes automatic? Are two valves just shutoffs?

Thank you.

The Two valves are just shutoffs, used for winterizing.

You would plumb it so that a 3 way valve replaces the white valve w/ red handle and the first tee.

As for a vacuum break I would think it should be there, because it seems to be on all solar systems that are above the pump.

The valve actuators can be set to any location you want. They are not simply 180 degree left or right. I wouls cut from the ground up and install the 3 ways valve with a bypass between pool and spa so you can maintain the valves in the 180 though. The Mastertemp 250 is the right heater for your system.

As for pumps, I'd avoid any SVRS due to the submerged suction. You'll have nothing but issues. In time, all of the SVRS will be a mure point as the California health departments are ignoring them as not acceptable. This does not apply to you but I thought I'd add my input. Hayward Stratum, Vac-Alert or IntelliFlo SVRS all need calibrated and the health department has no way of knowing if it is done right. They can visually see two drains so that is what they are accepting. With two drains, you don't need SVRS. These companies are going to take major hits on the technology as they simply are not selling. Splitting drains is all so cal contractors are doing right now.

As for filters, go with the Clean and Clean 420. If you do use the Quad, use AquaPerl or other DE substitute. San Diego does not like DE and it is illegal to discharge it anywhere.

The IntelliFlo VS on an EasyTouch is the best option. If you like salt, go with the IC40 version on the ET. The 20 is not worth it. The pump will address your solar needs and you can then add a 1.5 WhisperFlo for the jets. Yes, the VS will do it all but it won't really save you on the jets.

If you want a reliable cleaner, go with THE POOL CLEANER. It will outperform any other suction cleaner and to date, it is always cheaper than a Navigator. It will cost you less to maintain as well.

If you can't feel good about the lack of SVRS on your single suction system, it is much cheaper to install a VAC ALERT (flooded suction model) than deal with the IntelliFlo's on flooded suction. You'll be baysitting that pump forever.

You have a huge solar run so the lower IntelliFlo speeds will help there. If you try to slam a single speed pump into that collector system with a filter, you're asking for problems. Slow and steady will work great.

If you need an installer who is reliable, let me know. I can refer you to someone.

repair_guy,

The VF-SVRS can easily be adjusted in it's s/w to account for up to 10' of water level difference. It won't need babysitting. New code in the Easy Touch con be configured to send you alerts via email for any faults it senses, like if the pump's SVRS trips.

The pool is not new construction. The existing drains, or more accurately, the lack there of, dictate a single pump design for safety. The use of a suction side cleaner was also discussed and discouraged because of the lack and design of the existing suction lines and the fact that suction side cleaners tend to be so slow.

Using AquaPerl is not a bad idea.

I think the 250 is a little light for the heater if he wants to heat the pool, say on cloudy days.

A 250,000 btu will be fine of a 16,000 gallon pool anywhere in Cali. I'd question the heat up time of the spa over th ability for the heater to heat the pool water.

"The existing drains, or more accurately, the lack there of, dictate a single pump design for safety."

I'm not quite sure how having one pump would be safer than 2. It all comes down to GPM if you have on pump moving 80gpm its just as dangerous as on 2 pumps moving 40 each for the sum of 80.

Suction side cleaners are fine, I am not sure why this pool would be different than any other. All you need is a skimmer to attach it to.

Welcome repair guy!
This takes us full circle. If I go with two pumps, would I leave it plumbed the same? Only two jets come from the filter pump. What if I wanted heat from all six jets? How would I share the heater, if I did want to heat the pool? What do people do with DE in San Diego? And my daughters' favorite question "Are we there yet?", "Are we there yet?", "Are we there yet?".
Sorry about that. I just hope I'm not wearing everybody out with too many questions for such an old pool. Still more questions: Anyone bothered by 2" suctions going to a VS pump? Anyone wish to comment on the purpose of the vacuum break and lack thereof on my pool?

Thank you.

Back again.

What would the time difference in heating the 850 gallon spa be; comparing 250,000 and 300,000btu's ?

unnoticeable

20% difference in heat up time, I suppose that depends on how patient you are.

It's asking the question do you want the spa to heat up in 25 or 30 minutes.

A vs pump is fine w/ 2" suctions. We have a few on 1 1/2" suctions and they work pretty well ( helped with flow issues).

Hello.
The thread came back to using two pumps again and I, unfortunately, polluted my own posting with pile of questions.
Your input has helped me in the past and I don't want to flub your response so I will start over with only one question:

When you look at the existing system, in the photos, what is the consensus of what you would install?

This job may be more than I wish to tackle and if I hire somebody I wish to make sure they compare to the best and brightest here.

Please leave me speechless. I think everybody would enjoy that :)

Thank you again!

There is no need for you to have 2 pumps. Just the the VS+SVRS pump is all that is required.

Hello.
The thread came back to using two pumps again and I, unfortunately, polluted my own posting with a pile of questions.
Your input has helped me in the past and I don't want to flub your response so I will start over with only one question:

When you look at the existing system, in the photos, what is the consensus of what you would install?

This job may be more than I wish to tackle and if I hire somebody I wish to make sure they compare to the best and brightest here.

Please leave me speechless. I think everybody would enjoy that :-)

Thank you again!

My suggested equipment list:

Pentair Inteliflow-SVRS Pump
Pentair Easy-Touch 8SC-IC40 (includes Intellichor)
Pentair Wireless Remote
Pentair Valve Actuator (for Solar)
Pentair Mastertemp 300K Propane heater
Pentair Legend or Legend II pool sweep
Pentair 3 Way valves or Jandy Never-Lubes
2" PVC Pipe, Fittings, and check valve (keeps water level in the spa when pump is off)

Please use a pool professional and electrician. This is a very significant U/G and change. It's worth the extra money spent to have this project done well by an experienced technician.

I'd bid on it but myself but I don't think you want to pay for me to come from NJ with all my tools. ;-)

I forgot to add lights. It looks like a Sylvan pool. That would lead me to believe you have American Products lights. American Products is now part of Pentair. That means Intellibrite LED lights will fit your niches.

I didn't see the deck boxes in your pictures so I can't say how long the cord needs to be. The choices are 30, 50, 100 and 150 feet long.

Measure the distance from the deck box to the pool edge near the light niche. Add 10' to allow for the rise from the inside of the pool to the deck boxes and service slack. A 31' total run would need a 50' equipped light fixture. The excess will get cut off. Don't get one that's too short because extending the cord would not pass an inspection and could be hazardous.