Water softener/conditioner selection culligan vs. kinetico vs eco

16 years ago

I just purchased a new house with well water. The previous owned had the old water softener removed because it was leased. I had four suppliers test the water and make a recommendation

Culligan measured the clear iron at 10 ppm and the hardness at 30 grains per gallon and the oxidized iron at .5 ppm

The recommendation was a Medallist 60000 water softener at $2000

Kinetico measure the clear iron at 10 ppm the total iron at 11ppm and the hardness at 20 gpg

The recommendation was a Mach 2100s at $3295

Ecowater or Servisoft Â measure the iron at 7ppm and the hardness at 20gpg

The recommendation was a Ecowater 3500 R30 at $2349

The last supplier was a company called OmegaWater Treatment. He measured the iron at 7.5 ppm and the hardness at 11-12gpg. He suggested that no one piece of equipment (i.e. softener) was able to take out all this iron and hardness. He suggested an air injection iron and sulfur filter and a demand regeneration water conditioner but his price was only $2100 for both

Can anyone comment on all these suggestions? With 7plus ppm of dissolved iron can a traditional ion exchange softener remove all this iron? If so will I use a ÂpileÂ of salt each month? Will the water then have a significant sodium content making it bad to drink? Has anyone ever heard of Omega Water Treatment in Cortland Ohio?

Thanks to anyone for any help

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Comments (3)

User
16 years ago
Living with well water is more comlpicated than living on a water system and requires some routine maintenance.

I would accept the highest tested levels as average and use them.

In general an ion exchange water softener will successfully treat about 3ppm of iron, no more. Kinetico does offer models that are designed to treat higher iron levels and, of course, they cost more.

Kinetico has been around a long time and has an extensive dealer/service network and a large and loyal customer base. One rarely sees anyone posting about problems with their Kinetico softeners.

Culligan has been around a long time also but are complained about more often on these forums.

ECO has also been around a long time. ECO, Culligan, and Kinetico are all proprietary desihns and parts and service are only available from their respective dealers. If you have a good dealer that doesn't matter but if you have a bad dealer... with real estateit's location, location, location, and with water treatment its' DEALER, DEALER, DEALER.

Ask lots of questions. Softening the entire house or just the water heater (bad idea)? Warranty, parts & labor or just parts, how long and on exactly what? Install, permits required, licensed plumber? Routine maintenance and costs? Do they stock parts? Response time for emergency (water leak) calls? If they don't explain things to your satisfaction that is a good indicator of how you'll be treated after the sale.

Ask your neighbors if they have any water treatment experience. They might tell you who's good or who to avoid.
User
16 years ago
With the correct resin, it is possible to remove iron up to 10 ppm with a softener. HOWEVER, 10 is maximum and well water varies so it is not recommended. If your iron goes up, you are sunk. The Omega rep was at least on to right track. The others, as good or bad as their companies may be, are just trying to sell you some equipment with, apparently, little understanding of their capabilities and limitations. Unfortunately this is a common problem in the residential water treatment industry. High profit, low technical ability.

There are a variety of methods to remove iron. Air-injection and filtration is one that works well, as do ozonization/filtration, greensand, and pyrolox (my personal favorite for homeowners). You may want to call local hotels or small commercial facilities such as dairies or other food production facilities (you'd be surprised how many there are) to see who they use for water treatment. You may be able to get better advice that way.
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deedee, The size, type, and complexity of the equipment required will be dependent on... 1. What is in the water that needs to be treated. 2. Number of people in your home. 3. SFR and plumbing requirements. Without knowing all three variables there is no way to even ball park what you'll need. Could be as little as $500 or a few thousand. How about this... Get a water test from an independent lab. An independent lab has no agenda and won't be trying to sell you water treatment equipment. Go to http://www.epa.gov/safewater/labs/index.html to locate a certified lab near you. This is a MUST DO because without it everything is a guess. A quickie water test from Sears or a water softener company won't be as accurate (and possibly not as competent) as from a certified independent lab. Hit the Yellow Pages and call at least three local water treatment pros. Make sure you call at least one of the big dogs like Kinetico or Culligan for comparison and at least a couple independent pros. DON'T TELL THEM YOU HAD YOUR WATER TESTED. Give each an opportunity to offer suggestions and provide you with a quote to meet your water treatment needs. IGNORE ANY THAT DON'T TEST YOUR WATER THEMSELVES as they can't speak intelligently to water treatment without knowing what needs to be treated. Ask lots of questions. Softening the entire house or just the water heater (bad idea)? Warranty, parts & labor or just parts, how long and on exactly what? Install, permits required, licensed plumber? Routine maintenance and costs? Do they stock parts? Response time for emergency (water leak) calls? If they don't explain things to your satisfaction that is a good indicator of how you'll be treated after the sale. After they've gone use your water test to compare with theirs. Are all your treatment needs being addressed? Ask your neighbors if they have any water treatment experience. They might tell you who's good or who to avoid. Come back here and post the specific recommendations and hardware components with the costs and we'll give you our opinions.
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Chris You wrote "With the amount of salt needed from yours and justalurker's calculations, that is a lot of salt. I am not sure what the sales guy was referring to then. He kept pushing the lifetime warranty (besides the 10 years on the electronics) so that if anything went wrong, things will be replaced for free. So what you are saying is that there really is no way to feasibly maintain the system other than having a once a week (or at least once a month) routine to check the system and levels?" You can generally have salt delivered and placed in the salt (brine) tank, in most areas, by a water treatment dealer on a scheduled basis if that is a service you would want or need. You will pay more for your salt that way. Otherwise you will be responsible for checking the salt levels on a regular basis and adding any if needed, ie, water barely covers the top of the salt in the tank. There really is nothing to picking up the cover of the salt tank and peering inside to see if it needs salt. Remember, the fuel the water softener runs on is salt. Keep gas in its tank. :) Regards the amount of salt used per year the figures you were given are not unreasonable nor out of the ordinary for a family of 4 with 13 grains hard water. (1 grain of hardness = 17 mg/l) Some info on water softeners is found here: http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/housing/356-490/356-490.html There really should not be any service necessary on the water softener for a number of years unless, of course, you get a lemon like steve. What a terrible experience that must of been. My own experience with various makes of softeners is that, yes, there are slight differences in the valve designs and their construction. However most, if not all, manufacturers warrant their equipment for a number of years. As justalurker pointed out; "The "ready-built" softeners like the Sears, GE, Morton, and such are not as well designed or made of the same quality components and materials as the REAL softeners you'll get from a local pro. IMO, the "ready-built" ones are OK for slightly hard city water and people up against a constraining budget. Any softener is better than no softener at all IF YOU HAVE HARD WATER." So if indeed you are on municipal water and you simply have a hard water problem most any off the shelf box water softener will work just fine for you. Good luck.
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Simpler terms of what Jake says above ... A 30 amp 125 volt circuit (if that's really what you have) on your current water heater can provide 3,750 watts, figure 3,000 sustained continuous wattage available per the 80% rule. If it's (probably) really a 30 amp 240 volt circuit then the capacity is 7,200, or 5,700 continuous watts available. 36,709 watts (yes, thirty-six thousand seven hundred watts) is required for the tankless water heater per Jake's calculations to instantaneously raise the temperature of 55°F incoming water to 105°F for 2.5 gals per minute flow on each of two simultaneous showers. That's a 192 amp (say 200 amp) 240 volt circuit per the 80% rule. Just. For. The. Water. Heater. You may not need quite that much heating capacity in real usage (if you run the showers at lower flow), or you may need more capacity for higher temperatures on multiple tasks or lower than 55°F incoming water supply ... but either way it's still much more power than you're apparently understanding, so, no, your existing electric circuit to your tank water heater cannot support a tankless unit of sufficient heating capacity. My electric tankless on a 120 amp 240 volt circuit has been fine for 17+ years but I'm a one-person household, run my shower lower than 2 GPM by habit, and rarely run shower and/or dishwasher and/or clothes washing at the same time. Whether you can upgrade that circuit to support a tankless water heater depends on the details of the total available power supply to your condo, and space in the existing breaker box, and your budget.
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andy_c
16 years ago
You have two types of iron, ferrous (clear) and Ferric (oxidized). A softener will not remove ferric iron anmd may cause valve problems. A softener like the 2100 Kinetico will handle that much iron but not the ferric type. A seperate filter or filtering system would be needed.

Never use a packed-bed type softener with that much iron and your tanks would need at least 1.5 cuft of resin at a high salt dosage/frequent regeneration schedule.

Some prefilters are effective at removing the ferric iron. Oxidizing systems (chlorine, ozone, H202, aeration, etc.) can treat all your iron but each has its limitations and advantages. Cost, space, effectiveness, 'babysitting' and available parts and supplies must be factored into selection.

I don't care for birm especially with that much iron and greensand filters, Uhm, who out there that has to work with them likes them? Not many. They are troublesome, not reliable and messy.

Since two companies measured around 7ppm and two around 10, I would error on the high side when it comes to iron. So figure 10ppm.

Andy Christensen, CWS

Water softener/conditioner selection culligan vs. kinetico vs eco

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