Thanks for your detailed response justalurker.

To answer your questions:

-I don't believe the house is pre-plumbed for a softener. The main water service line comes into the house and a line feeds the hot water heater at the opposite side of the basement.

-I really like the idea of softened water 24/7, but I can't really justify the extra expense, especially given the other repairs/renovations we are completing (furnace/AC replacement and master bedroom/bathroom renovation). I'm OK with a single resin tank installation.

-There are 2 people in the home now, and I would expect 4-5 people in the home when we rent it.

You mentioned minimal maintenance with all the softeners...both the Culligan and EcoWater rep both said you could simply add the maximum amount of salt (300 lbs I guess?) and not worry about the softener for 8-9 months, at our usage rate. Is this bogus or can you really do that? I like the idea of loading up the softener when renters move in and only checking it every 6 months or so to make sure the salt is above the water level.

The HVAC contractor that quoted the lower cost system is a very reputable local dealer that is part of a much larger company. I didn't ask him specifically about warranties or service for the water softener. The softener that he recommended is made about 45 minutes from where I live, so I'm somewhat more comfortable choosing that, especially for the price. Given the specs at their website for the 7-LX-100 model (http://www.lancasterpump.com/documents/2010xfactor.pdf), could you tell me if it would be properly sized for our usage? Thank you again for your help.

You want the whole house softened, NOT just the water heater.

Your contacts with Culligan and ECO are sales reps and are parroting what sells softeners. Loading up a brine tank to max invites salt bridging and mushing which results in a billable service call. Keeping as much salt as required to cover the water (and checking it weekly) cuts down on service calls and prods the occupants to take a look around and maybe catch a problem before it becomes a catastrophe which protects you, the owner.

I see that you are enamored with the local guy but realize that he makes nothing locally. He simply assembles components and might even be buying the softeners pre-assembled by who knows from a jobber.

Working with the max hardness reported (25gpg) the 7-LX-100 model (1 cu ft of resin) would be too small for even two people. It would regenerate too often wasting water, salt, money, and accelerating the depletion of the resin. The 7-LX-150 (1.5 cu ft of resin) would be more correctly sized for two people and would regenerate once a week and operate much more efficiently. It would still be far too small for 4 people let alone 5 people. That tells me that your local guy does not understand how to correctly size a water softener. As you move up to a correctly sized softener for your needs his prices won't be as appealing.

Take a look at this thread for some good info on softener sizing... click here

It's always hard to spend money but quality water treatment costs money and that cost can be amortized over 10-15 even 20 years with quality equipment and that is a value add to the property. A big plus for doing it right is that you'll be replacing/servicing appliances and fixtures far less frequently.

You have to decide if you want to go down the shore to White House for the HOAGIE or to Subway for just a sandwich.

FWIW....

I've had two Kinetico systems (softening plus RO) operating at two separate properties for almost 18 years. Yes, they were among the most expensive. Yes, I have had them refurbished...at nominal/reasonable rates. Except for the refurbishment (which was prophylactic...no particular problem emerged) they have been trouble-free. I'm somewhat anal about my household water. I do, in fact, have it checked regularly so I can tell you my units are performing at the same specs. as new at this late date.

I like good performance and I like no problems. In your situation as upcoming landlord, I wouldn't hesitate a moment to go the Kinetico route. Brainless operation. Neither you nor they have to figure anything out. Assuming its sized properly, you or your tenant just add salt. You don't have to adjust anything after power outages or anything else. Thing just sits there and runs. Water is soft all the time.

If you can stand the bucks, do that. I have little doubt you'll have fewer problems than with any other route......IMHO. I'd certainly do mine again the same way.

As a follow up... Lancaster control valves used by your local guy are not common and somewhat proprietary. You'll be relying on the local guy for parts and service the same as the brand names.

The local guy would be more appealing if he used Fleck control valves and knew how to correctly size a softener.

You might cruise the Yellow Pages und er water treatment for companies that DON'T sell a brand name. They will be independent water treatment companies and sell industry standard softeners. You can check to see if they know their stuff by asking them to size the softener for 25gpg and 2 people. If they give the same answer as the other guy run.

BTW, from what you posted both the Culligan and ECO quoted were undersized also.

PS...that sounded like a diatribe. Be advised that I have zero association with Kinetico other than as a full-retail-paying customer. I bought what they offered. I paid what what they asked -- perhaps with a cough -- but they and their equipment held up their end of the bargain.

Just saying, as a full-retail customer, I'd do that again. I like the no-problem part.

justalurker,

Nice reference to White House. Their subs are indeed much better than subway, but just how much better?

Anyway, none of the reps recommended just softening the hot water, so that's not a concern. Is the Kinetico sized correctly for my usage? I'm considering going with that and asking the rep to quote me a price without the dechlor system. I understand that this will cause the resin to degrade faster than with it, but with the low level of chlorine in the system, will it really matter? If I need to replace the resin in 10 years for $250-$500, I'd consider it money saved for not going with the dechlor.

Thanks again for your help.

If you ask "Their subs are indeed much better than Subway, but just how much better?" then you've NEVER been to White House. Make the trip... just consider it a pilgrimage.

The Kinetico recommendation seems sized about right and a twin resin tank softener will be more efficient than a single tank and not waste the calculated in reserve that a single must set aside.

With the low level of chlorine you have I'm confident you'll get at least 10 years on the resin and I think more. By then it'll be time for a disassemble and clean so new resin is easy at that time.

I would definitely get a three ball valve bypass installed along with the bypass Kinetico will install.

Chlorine does, indeed, kill media over time. I'm not techie enough to know whether your particular level is big deal or small. However, I have no doubt such info is readily available....to the point that I'd be surprised if anyone would lie to you about it. Justalurker has a point about not taking it out at the head-end. Basically, chlorine -- at reasonable level -- is beneficial in that it inhibits all manner of nasties in your pipes. In particular, if you're having RO in the house for drinking water anyway, that issue wouldn't even come up -- the separate RO system with its two charcoal filters will remove all of it. As far as resin replacement (which you WILL want to have someone else do!) budget a couple hundred bucks many years down the road. The rep can tell you about how many.

justalurker - I have been to White House and their subs are awesome...just don't think they're that much better than any other sandwich shop. Guess I'm crazy?

I'm going to call the Kinetico rep and ask for pricing without the DECHLOR. I'm hoping that it will bring the price down into the range of the other softeners and then I can easily choose that. He already said they would install a 3 valve bypass system. We're going to skip the RO, since we can't really afford the whole setup at the moment. I'm hoping that running softened water through the carbon filter in the new fridge we're getting should make the water OK to drink. We've been getting spring water jugs from Wal Mart up to this point.

Yes, the Kinetico dealer will install a Kinetico bypass and I'm telling you to have another 3 ball valve bypass installed BEFORE that one.

The Kinetiso bypass will take care of bypassing the softener if there is a leak or problem but what if the Kinetico bypass leaks? On a weekend? In the middle of the night? You would have to shut off the water to the house to stop the leak... get it? With another 3 ball valve bypass you will still have (untreated) water to the house while waiting for repairs.

If you.just don't think a White House Hoagie is that much better than any other sandwich shop well then...

justalurker,

The kinetico dealer said they would install a 3 ball valve bypass before the softener. He even drew a picture on the back of the proposal to illustrate :) Will the Kinetico (2040OD) be able to handle 4-5 people if we should rent the townhome at some point?

As for White House, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Ask the Kinetico dealer what disc he's install in the 2040OD. I'd also ask about stepping up one size and what the cost difference would be.

John, I don't know any simpler way to explain it...

One three ball valve bypass and then the Kinetico bypass. A total of TWO bypasses. did the Kinetico dealer's picture show TWO bypasses?

Even Wawa hoagies blow away Subway.

I asked him today about sizing and if it would be correctly sized for a larger family in the future. He said it would and that they actually use it for larger installations than ours. I didn't think to ask him about what disc they would install. He quoted me $2350 + tax, installed, for the prefilter + softener.

As for the valve, I don't think I explained it correctly. So here's the picture he drew:
{{gwi:2023309}}

And the picture of our current setup for comparison:
{{gwi:2023310}}

And I agree that Wawa subs are much better than Subway...however, Subway's are cheaper, on a per-inch basis.

Ask the dealer how often the 2040SOD will regenerate in days or how many gallons between regenerations?

As I said, I see ONE three ball valve bypass marked BYPASS-INLET-OUTLET in the picture.That's ONE bypass.

Tell the Kinetico dealer you want that AND a factory Kinetico bypass AT THE WATER SOFTENER. He'll grumble but tell him you want it. That way you have redundancy and he shouldn't charge you extra.

I guess if one measures their life in inches then Subway is all one requires. I wouldn't use a Subway to mop up the oil from a Lee's Cheltenham. Don't tell me you favor Twinkies over TastyKakes and don't get me started on Cheesesteaks.

BTW, looking at your drain arrangement here's a slick air gap for your softener drain that works and plays well with the washer drain hose... http://airgap.com/gapIt.htm

No muss, no fuss, just slides right in.

When he explained the picture, he said the bypass, inlet, and outlet all had ball valves. I was also under the impression that the Kinetico softener came standard with it's own bypass. I will ask about regenerations tomorrow. He did mention that each tank was 150 gallons, but I'm not sure if that was just an example or an exact spec. I couldn't find a spec sheet online for the 2040OD.

Having recently graduated from college, I have to measure life in inches, at least when it comes to money. Every penny helps. TastyKakes are indeed better than twinkies (made locally in Lancaster, aren't they?) and Pat's Cheesesteaks can't be beat. I'd bet my soon-to-be-new Kinetico softener that you're a Gino's fan though :)

Can you explain the purpose of the air gap? I'm not very familiar with drain plumbing beyond a basic sink.

Thanks again.

I have a spec sheet and the 2040S OD looks way too small. With your hardness and two people it will regen every 163 gallons. Two people use about 120 gallons per day. That's a regen every other day.

With the 4 people down the road using 240 gallons per day the 2040S OD will be regenerating every day and often twice a day. That's an awful lot of wear and tear on the softener control valve and resin.

Looks to me like the 2060S OD would be better sized.

Now is the time to ask these questions of the dealer and make sure you get what you need.

Air gaps are required by plumbing code anytime an appliance that has potable water is connected to a drain. The air gap prevents cross contamination between the drain and potable water.

Most plumbers and softener installers fabricate a crude and ugly air gap but www.airgap.com has come up with snazzy air gaps that are cheap and easy and sano.

I go so far back at Pat's that my first steak "with" was under two bucks. Never thought to cross the street. My ultimate favorite is Jim's on South Street.

I forgot... as I remember Kinetico prices everything is a la carte. I'm sure the dealer didn't price the Kinetico factory bypass in because he is installing the (inexpensive) three ball valve bypass. Tell him you want both because redundancy is a good thing especially on a Saturday night or holiday weekend.

Hi justalurker,

Spoke to the dealer and he told me he could install the 2060 model for $100 extra. Also said the kinetico bypass wouldn't be a problem and they would use all copper.

When I asked him about the regens, he said with our hardness the 2060S OD would be setup to regen every 416 gallons, using 4lbs of salt per regen. I think this will work well for our usage at this point, and be able to handle a larger family at some point. Do you agree? I'm planning on signing the contract today.

Thanks again for all your help.

By the way, I've never had Jim's (a travesty, I know), but I am a fan of Larry's out near Saint Joe's University. Ever had theirs before?

The dealer is treating you right and I think the 2060S OD is a wise choice for only $100 more.

Larry's wasn't around back in the day but Jim's is worth the ride.

It's been fun... let us know how everything works out.

Been fun watching from the bleachers, too. I try to learn at least a little bit every day. Thanks, guys.

Asolo,

Didya like that hoagie talk?

Not a hoagie fan, actually, but don't mess with me about Italian Beefs. Grew up around Chicago in the sixties. I swear there was a "dago-beef" shop on every block -- some much better than others. Long time ago, but I was there. Later.

Another question after further discussion with the dealer today. The proposal he sent me only listed the K-2060...not the K-2060 OD. When I asked him about it, he said it was just a configuration change that they normally make when a higher flow rate is required. I said that it was important to me to have this feature and he said OK.

He called me back later and said a commercial/farm sales rep for kinetico said it was unnecessary and not ideal in a residential situation because when in "OD" mode, the flow meter doesn't detect low water usage, like flushing a toilet or washing your hands. Thus, the regeneration cycle could potentially be too late, and hard water would break through. Does this make sense or is the dealer blowing smoke?

It was my understanding that the OD model/config change reduced the drop in water pressure when one tank regenerates while using another. The dealer isn't going to charge me if I really want to go with the OD model, but I want to make sure it's truly what I need and it's not going to be an issue in the future.

Thanks again.

This is gonna cost you some soft pretzels...

The only difference between the 2060S and the 2060S OD if the SFR. The S flows 11.6 gpm at 15 psi (or less) drop while the OD flows 20 gpm at the same drop. The S spec is right for your 3/4" copper and the OD spec would be no advantage.

The dealer is telling you the truth, answering your questions, charging you a fair price, and not pressuring you to buy. That's a good indicator that you'll be treated well after the sale.

Tell him you believe him and the 2060S is acceptable and that if you decide on a Kinetico RO you'll appreciate a little extra consideration.

johngalt,

You're right about the differences between the S and S-OD models. There is a louver in the valve that allows for higher flow rates with the ODs. Normally a valve can detect just below 0.2 gallons per minute, the OD is a little ove 0.3-0.4 gallons per minute.

It is important to check toilet tanks to make sure NO water is slowly draining into the downtube. Other locations where slow drains happen (besides the last moments of a toilet refill) is a furnace humidifier and an RO. If you have either of these, notify the installer/sales rep for him to make adjustments in disc selection. These, however, will affect either S or OD models equlaly--any demand water softener, for that matter.

Of course, be responisible and fix any dripping faucets.

All OD models ARE recommended for consistent higher flow rates, but both can work for you. My preference would be the standard S model.

The 2040 WILL provide you with constant softened water but will work much harder with the estimated number of gallons used on a daily basis.

Hope that helped,
Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Thanks justalurker and andy for providing the information on the S vs. OD. I spoke to the rep today and installation is all set for this Friday. I'll post complete install photos and final costs for those who might read this thread in the future.

The installer came today and setup everything. Arrived around 8:45 and finished at 11:30am. Very neat, professional job and he answered all the questions I had. Here are some install pics:

{{gwi:2023311}}

{{gwi:2023312}}

{{gwi:2023313}}

Total installed cost for the K2060S, CAH10MB Filter housing, 4 sediment filters, and 6 bags of salt was $2433 + tax. This was in the Philadelphia area with 25 gpg hardness, 0 iron, 7 pH, 340 TDS and .4 ppm Chlorine.

Only a three ball valve bypass and not the additional Kinetico bypass at the softener the dealer agreed to.

Brine tank overflow elbow (1/2 way up the brine tank) not connected to a drain. If the brine tank float sticks open (which can happen) it will flood that room and I see an OSB floor. I'm pretty sure that is a plumbing code violation... if not it is still very risky to leave it that way.

The red knob just to the left of the softener appears to be the main water shut off for the house and it is a gate valve. Gate valves can't be trusted over the long haul and often leak or fail when you need them most. If you know a plumber get him/her to replace that gate valve with a 1/4 turn ball valve.

Just noticed... the softener drain line (white tubing) is not air gapped into the drain standpipe. That is a plumbing code violation.

I think PA code requires softener installation by a licensed plumber and a licensed plumber should know the code. If the installer is not a licensed plumber then the installation needs to be corrected to code.

1. Drain line air gap is code required.
2. Brine tank overflow drain can't just be left the way it is.

Click here for plumbing code info

While it is not a listed air gap, the above arrangement could actually be a functioning air gap, depending upon the arrangement of the tube and the drain pipe, which we can't see. I can't speak to whether or not PA will allow a non-listed physical air gap, but all that is required for a functioning air gap is: 1) the diameter of the receiving pipe be 2X or greater the diameter of the tube, 2) The tube discharge above the receiving pipe from a height above the receiving pipe 2X the tube diameter.

As I see the picture the white drain tube is IN (below) the rim level of the standpipe. For it be acceptable I believe the white tube would have to be suspended ABOVE the rim of the standpipe as you posted.

{{gwi:2023314}}

I spoke with the rep before the install about the kinetico bypass and he said they prefer not to use them because they have had several issues with them leaking. I think the 3 valve bypass is good enough.

All the valves in the house are gate valves and I'm slowing replacing them with ball valves...the main water shutoff would probably be relatively expensive to do, so it'll have to wait a while.

As for the air gap, I asked the installer about it and he said it wasn't required by code in my area. Since I plan on installing my own air gap along with the washer installation, I didn't push the issue.

The dealer prefers not to use the Kinetico bypass because it costs a pretty penny and three ball valves cost $10. You relayed that he had agreed to both bypasses and that's why I mentioned it.

Gate valves bad... ball valves good.

AFAIK any appliance that is connected to potable water is required to have an air gap if connect to an indirect drain anywhere in the US and that has been code for quite a while.

Since you will add a proper air gap soon you'll correct that.

What is the dealers answer to the overflow elbow on the brine tank? With full service water pressure on the brine tank float valve, just like a toilet ballcock, if the brine tank float valve ever fails, and they do, there will be massive flooding. When a toilet ballcock fails there's an overflow standpipe in the tank. It is negligent to leave it that way.

Is that block wall an above grade outside wall?

Since I had already agreed to not go with the extra bypass, I can't do much about it now. I'm not sure I agree with you on the need for extra redundancy...I think you also create another point of failure.

I'll be adding an air gap as soon as the washer is installed. Any recommendations on which one I should choose?

I'll be talking to the dealer tomorrow, as the top ball valves has a very, very slight leak. The installer didn't mention anything about the overflow elbow and I didn't know to ask, but I'll be sure to question the dealer about it tomorrow.

Thanks yet again for your help :)

If a ball valve has a problem it's usually at install. Either a defective ball valve or more likely the installer applied too much heat or took too long when soldering it in.

The reason I recommend a three ball bypass along with the OEM bypass is that most dealers want to install just the OEM bypass and the redundancy of the additional three ball bypass, at it's modest cost during installation, is a good idea. With no Kinetico bypass what you have will serve you once the ball valves that leak are taken care of.

Understand before you speak with the dealer that the water at the float valve is under system water pressure and all that is between correct operation and failure is the float. The tank drain elbow is provided so that if the float fails the overflow will be directed to a drain cause if it fails when no one is around it will be pumping water into the brine tank at house pressure.

If there is no floor drain handy then it is common to drill a hole through an exterior wall and run a PE tube from the brine tank elbow through the wall to the outside. The elbow is a gravity drain and will not run water up.

Many softeners are installed disregarding the brine tank drain and as long as the float never fails or leaks it's OK. I've seen quite a few where the float failed and there is substantial water damage.

Do not let the dealer minimize the importance of the brine tank drain or say it can be ignored because you're betting a lot on that float mechanism... an awful lot. If something does happen and there is no line to drain there's a chance your homeowner's insurance won't cover the damage.

With a washing machine I'd think that one of the Gap-It airgaps from airgap.com will do nicely. Pick the one that accommodates both the washer drain hose and the softener drain hose.

to johngalt117,
Are these postings from May of this year?
Was your price quotes from this year?

Look at the date on the posts - 2010

I purchased a Kinetico whole house treatment system with RO just about 2 years ago, in my opinion I wouldnt waste my time or money on any other system, I had a system in Indiana and now in Florida and feel they are the best you can get, sure they may cost a little more but you get what you pay for and my water is the best you can get and I have high levels of sulphur in my water that is virtually gone and their customer service is outstanding, none other compares.