Booster pump after filters will suffer from lack of volume. Booster pump before the filters will increase pressure which the components may or may not withstand. I'm thinking the filters/connections may simply be under-sized. I have particulate filter and softener in-line without loss of volume or pressure which is why I'm suspicious.

A proper installation of an in-line filter housing would include a pressure gauge before and after the filter to monitor pressure drop. Then you would see what that filter element and housing are doing to your pressure.

In some installations TWO "big blue" 20" housings and filters in PARALLEL are required in order to NOT drop the pressure. If you're using those 10" housings then that is where your pressure might be going.

Justalurker, I had a singular 10" housing for the sediment cartridge and added after that another identical 10" housing for the activated carbon. My pressure at the faucet/showers has never been great (probably the builder switched from 3/4" to 1/2" near the outlets) but now with the added carbon, it's awful.

Are you suggesting that a singular unit with 2 10" cartridge holders would not impede pressure as the 2 individual units are doing? Like I said, it wasn't great before but tolerable. Now it's not tolerable which is making me think booster pump and after all filters and softener.

Asolo, if the volume is there for a booster, why wouldn't it work? If I understand water pressure correctly, the volume would be there since at that stage there is not downsizing of piping. No?

brucegz,

So, you installed a singular 10" housing for the sediment cartridge probably causing a presuure drop and then added another identical 10" housing for the activated carbon which installed another pressure drop. You said "my pressure at the faucet/showers has never been great (probably the builder switched from 3/4" to 1/2" near the outlets) but now with the added carbon, it's awful", I wonder why.

You've done exactly what an orange apron HD employee or a plumber trying their hand at water treatment would do... the WRONG thing.

What I am suggesting is what I suggested. REMOVE both 10" filter housings. Install ONE 20" gig blue housing with one 20" sediment filter and add pressure gauges BEFORE and AFTER the filter housing. If there is a pressure drop across the filter when you're using lots of water then add a SECOND 20" big blue housing with one 20" sediment filter in PARALLEL (NOT in series one after the other) with pressure gauges BEFORE and AFTER that filter housing. That should do the job.

If that gets you maximum pressure, with no pressure drop across the filters, then you're going to need TWO 20" big blue housings with one 20" carbon cartridge each in PARALLEL just like the sediment filters. Put pressure gauges before and after just like the sediment filters.

If only one 20" sediment filter flows with no pressure drop across the filter housing then one 20" carbon might do you but you might need two. Just watch the gauges and look for a pressure drop across the filter housings.

Once you sort this out and you have maximum pressure with no pressure drop across any of the filters you can watch the gauges and they will tell you which filter is clogging and needs to be replaced because you'll see a pressure drop across that filter housing. To make life easy, when you're plumbing this up add shut-off ball valves at the sediment filter housings. so all you need to do when changing a filter is turn the ball valves to shut off the water and open a faucet to relieve the internal pressure.

And now, sorry to do this, but I'm wondering if your softener is sized properly to accomodate the SFR of your plumbing. If it isn't then you'll get hardness leaking through at those flow rates exceeding the SFR of the resin.

Assume you're referring to post-filter boost. If you're SURE about OK volume being available, yes. But you seem not to be sure about the line-size reduction. Your statement "...probably the builder switched from 3/4" to 1/2" near the outlets..." doesn't give me comfort.

You're thinking correctly, but that assumption troubles me. We're on the same page, I think.

Justalurker, thanks for the ideas. First, does a 20" housing/filter affect pressure less than a 10"? When you said to put 2 20" housings in parellel, are you saying split the pipe and run to identical 20" housings? Not sure I comprehend the gain there. Also, at the end of your last post, you're assuming a filter is clogging. When I installed the last (carbon) housing, I put in new cartridges in both (sediment and carbon). I don't think it's a clogging issue. The sediment filter is not visably clogged.

Asolo, on the downstairs bathroom, I can see the pipes change from 3/4" to 1/2" right before it enters that room's flooring. Based on the overall lower than ideal pressure the house has always had, I'm guessing this may have been done near the upstairs baths too.

It's a relatively large house (3,400' sq), post 'n beam and the pipes may have too long runs and too many corners (who knows???). I have bypasses near all the filters so I know it's part of the problem. I see Asolo's point about if the volume is there post filtes to run a booster. Maybe put a booster after the sediment and carbon housings but before the tank neutralizer and softener???

BTW, thanks to both of you for the continuing dialog. It's very helpful.

"does a 20" housing/filter affect pressure less than a 10"?"

Yes

"When you said to put 2 20" housings in parellel, are you saying split the pipe and run to identical 20" housings?"

Yes, that is what parallel means

"Not sure I comprehend the gain there."

More filter area = higher flow rate

"I don't think it's a clogging issue. The sediment filter is not visably clogged."

All filters will ultimately clog. As the elements collect more and more of what they are filtering they reduce the flow. It happens gradually until they severely effect the flow. That's why installing gauges makes it EZ to see a pressure drop across the filter. That's why the elements are designed to be replaced.

Part of your problem is flow rate through the filter housings BUT ultimately filter service life will be another. Do you think the filter elements just sit there and filter but never clog or reduce flow? If so, then that would be magical.

Also, have you bypassed your water softener and water neutralizer to see if they are effecting the pressure? you already know the 10" filter housings are dropping the pressure. All the bottlenecks add up and your pressure and flow rate drops.

You seem determined to treat the symptom but will not consider curing the disease. First, correct your installation.

>>>All filters will ultimately clog. As the elements collect more and more of what they are filtering they reduce the flow. It happens gradually until they severely effect the flow.>>>

You evidently missed in my last post that both cartridges are new. It's obvious that a clogged filter impedes flow.

>>Do you think the filter elements just sit there and filter but never clog or reduce flow? If so, then that would be magical.>>>

Ummm, see response above.

>>>Also, have you bypassed your water softener and water neutralizer to see if they are effecting the pressure? >>>

Yes, did that awhile ago and they affect the pressure but not as much as the cartridge filter(s). But I havn't installed gauges beyond the one at the base of the pressure tank.

>>>You seem determined to treat the symptom but will not consider curing the disease. First, correct your installation>>>

Not at all. The original problem stems from a very bad odor that only comes from the run dishwasher/dishes. Water's been tested multiple times, dishwasher replaced, water heater replaced, anode rods replaced with alum...the list goes on. Plumbers, well company, water treatment companies: baffled. The Odor is undetectable anywhere else in house including kitchen sink (same hot line). The only thing that has helped is activated carbon.

I'm trying to understand everything I do thoroughly before doing it. While you may expect me to read your post and immediately implement it (which I very well may), we don't know each other IRL so I need to full comprehend the idea, process and associated costs. As you can see, I've spent a small fortune trying to solve this issue. I appreciate your help but understand that this issue goes far beyond the water pressure, both in dollars, years (3+) and sweat.

Every filter element and it's housing have a certain flow rate. They differ by the type of filter element. a 5 micron sediment filter will flow more than a 50 micron filter. As the element traps more stuff the flow rate drops.

You could prove that to yourself with your own eyes if you had pressure gauges before and after any one filter housing. First, check the pressure with the housing bypassed. Then check the pressure drop across the empty housing (no element inside). Then check the pressure drop across the housing with sediment element and then wityh the carbon element.

It is no surprise to me that your 10" filter housing and either the sediment or carbon filter restricts the flow more than the softener or neutralizer but the reality is that both the softener and neutralizer are also resticting the flow.

If a carbon filter removes the offending odor then you have that answer but the solution needs to be implemented so as NOT to reduce the pressure or flow.

With respect, you came here looking for answers and your problem is really quite simple. I regret that you spent a small fortune trying to solve the problem but as Clint Eastwood said "a man has got to know his limitations".

Summarizing, your sediment filter housing has too low a flow rate, your carbon housing has too low a flow rate, your neutralizer is undersized for the SFR of your plumbing and fixtures, and your softener is undersized also.

Now, you have to ask yourself a question, do you want clean, quality water with all the pressure your water source will allow and no odor?

In my previous post I said "a 5 micron sediment filter will flow more than a 50 micron filter". Of couse that is wrong and should be reversed to say, a 5 micron filter will flow less than a 50 micron filter.

Brucegz,

Let's set all this aside for a while and look at the original odor problem from another direction...

You only get the odor from the dishwasher, right? The water for the dishwasher comes from the hot water feed for the kitchen sink but no odor from the hot water at the sink, right?

Has anyone of the plumbers, well company, or water treatment companies disinfected the water line and fittings from the kitchen sink hot water supply to the dishwasher and the drain line? Is the dishwasher drain line properly air gapped to the drain or disposal as code requires?

Have you had your well checked for bacteria lately?

The thing that sticks in my mind is that if the problem is bacteria then carbon is a bad idea. Bacteria loves to populate carbon and then you will have your problem magnified.

>>>You only get the odor from the dishwasher, right? The water for the dishwasher comes from the hot water feed for the kitchen sink but no odor from the hot water at the sink, right?>>>

Correct!

>>>Has anyone of the plumbers, well company, or water treatment companies disinfected the water line and fittings from the kitchen sink hot water supply to the dishwasher and the drain line?>>>

We've shocked the well (bleach) several times including running bleach water into all the household lines and letting it sit for 24+ hours.

>>>Is the dishwasher drain line properly air gapped to the drain or disposal as code requires? >>>

We checked that idea a couple of times thinking what you're thinking. The drain sits well above the trap pipe and the D/W drain hose travels up 8"+- before going down to the D/W.

>>>With respect, you came here looking for answers and your problem is really quite simple. I regret that you spent a small fortune trying to solve the problem but as Clint Eastwood said "a man has got to know his limitations".>>>

After dealing with plumbers, water treatment companies, chemical analysis companies & well installation companies, I'm pretty sure I've exhausted all efforts with the "pro's". It's clear that if this problem is to be solved, they are not going to solve it. They are baffled. Do I know my limitations? Absolutely. But they are decreasing with each effort.

Often times, in the middle of a tricky diagnosis we make the cardinal mistake and forget RULE #1, which is go back to square one. Rule #2, never assume, gets lost quite a bit also in the heat of battle.

Do you have this odor everytime you use the dishwasher? Since you have the odor problem only at the dishwasher, shocking the well and letting bleach sit in the lines for 24 hours apparently is not the solution. Perhaps because the bleached water is not getting into the dishwasher. Disinfecting the specific line and fittings from the kitchen sink hot water supply to the dishwasher and the dishwasher internals is more specific and in keeping with your symptoms.

Assuming that an 8" rise in the dishwasher drain is adequate is NOT the same as a code required airgap.

If you want to resolve this problem then you have to be smarter than the pros. Go step by step with no short cuts and don't assume anything.

Get a clean water sample from the well, a clean water sample from the hot water line at the kitchen sink, and a clean water sample from where the hot water line goes into the dishwasher. It would be wise to take a sample from the dishwasher drain while you smell the odor. Take the samples to a certified lab and for testing.

If you can't find a certified lab then this link will help... http://www.epa.gov/safewater/labs/index.html

The tests may tell you what you're looking for.

The problem you're having is frustrating and annoying, right up there with an intermittent electrical problem and can be a real pain to find BUT, it can be found and remedied and you're not paying us to not fix it.

Further thoughts...

Bruce,

Since the carbon filter at the well water entrance to the home removes the odor you've proved that... either something is coming into the house from the well causing the odor OR something is coming into the house from the well that is reacting with something at or in the dishwasher causing the odor.

When you shock the well and let the bleached water sit in the lines for 24 hours, are you starting and running the dishwasher for a little while to get the bleach into it's internals?

Since you've shocked the well and not resolved the problem I go back to my previous question, do you get the odor everytime you use the dishwasher and at the same intensity?

I realize that, especially after what you've been through, it is appealing to just let the carbon filter remove the odor but I'd be leery of a(n intermittent) bacterial problem that may come and go and that may cause big problems in the carbon filter element. That may be why shocking the well isn't solving the odor.

I believe the answer lies in the water tests I recommended in my previous post from a certified lab, not a water treatment company. Those tests will cost money BUT you'll be dealing with lab techs and chemistry. At least you'll know what's in the water at the well, the kitchen sink, the dishwasher, and the dishwasher drain.

>>Do you have this odor everytime you use the dishwasher?

About 80% of the time these days. It's gone through periods where it didn't happen. IMO, something changed in the well. Thought about re-drilling elsewhere but once again $$$.

The water tests have been done by a lab, not a water treatment company. The only thing that ever came back (hot or cold water) was somewhat high sodium levels. The odor I believe is triggered by the high heat of the drying cycle. Of course, I've tried higher and lower hot water heater temps to ward of bacterial growth but that hasn't worked.

I tend to agree that more water testing is called for. When the odor occurs, it's about the same strength consistently and nowadays occurs far more often then not. Sometimes, oddly, we can re-run the dishwasher after a bad run and it comes out ok. Sometimes we don't even smell the odor until the dishes and D/W have cooled off. Bizarre to say the least.

>>>>The problem you're having is frustrating and annoying, right up there with an intermittent electrical problem and can be a real pain to find BUT, it can be found and remedied and you're not paying us to not fix it.

Heh heh, righteo on that. So far, you've been worth every penny. Seriously, I do appreciate the suggestions and am compiling a new attack from them. It's worth putting up with the occasional sarcastic shot across the bow though I think I've defended them them so far. LOL

Bob and weave, bob and weave...

Solving problems with half-duplex communication can be frustrating. It can get annoying trying to help someone long distance. If I've taken a cheap shot at you I can only say... my water doesn't smell funny.

Sure sounds like the problem IS a combination of circumstances that come together in the dishwasher environment.

Sort of sounds like the dishwasher heat is setting of or enhancing a sulfide or bacteria problem for a short term.

Might be a bacteria populating the dishwasher drain line and the heat in the appliance is setting off the odor rather than something coming back up the dishwasher drain line, because there is no air gap.

I have an idea, try installing your carbon inline filter under the sink between the hot water feed for the dishwasher and the dishwasher.

If that cures the odor at the dishwasher and the odor doesn't occur anywhere else, where ther's heat like the water heater, it will indicate that it is something coming from the well interacting in the dishwasher.

>>>I have an idea, try installing your carbon inline filter under the sink between the hot water feed for the dishwasher and the dishwasher.>>>

I've read that activated carbon filters cannot be used on hot water lines.

>>>Might be a bacteria populating the dishwasher drain line and the heat in the appliance is setting off the odor rather than something coming back up the dishwasher drain line, because there is no air gap.>>>

Might be worth re-visiting this issue. Maybe I'll just change the drain line completely though I assume the plastic line to the sink drain was changed when the new D/W was installed. Seems like a little far fetched though. I have tried cleaning the trap but I don't think I completely removed it. Might be worth a shot though.

Bruce,

At this point anyhting you can do yourself, IE not pay someone to do it, that will rule out an aspect of the problem is worth investigating.

You may want to disinfect the dishwasher so the drain side can be ruled out.