Water Softener New Purchase Advice

17 years ago

I've done the research and need advice:

I'm Phoenix, AZ (North Scottsdale). Just bought a new house just under 3000 sq. ft. with 4 beds, 3 full baths. 2 adults and 2 children living in the house. Price quotes have ranged from $1300.00 to $1550.00 for 48K grain, on-demand regeneration systems installed. I did more research and found a company that can offer a comparable system for $895.00 installed. I have a softwater loop and brine line already plumbed in the house. The guy who offered $895.00 has answered the following questions:

The control valve can be a Fleck 5600 or 5600SE (same price). He does not recommend the digital since, "if they break down there expensive to get fixed", plus the design and technology changes.

It is a on-demand, two piece, regeneration system. Salt tank holds up to 325lbs and has a one-piece corrosion resistent valve body 3/4" - 1 1/4 oulet available.

Warrenties:

5yr. on the head

25yr on the resin

25yr on the tanks

1yr labor

1yr on distributor from the manufacture.

There semmes to be an issue in Phoenix that pressure can exceed 80psi at night. This guys tells me that were on city water and he does not think it's an issue. If I need a pressure regulator it's an additional $90.00. Other companies start at $150.00.

I addressed the issue of replacing the control valve and the cost. He agrred it can increase the lifespan of the system but said you should not have to do it for about 15-20 yrs. Which is why he did not recommend digital since they constantly change. His cost to do so is around $250.00. He does offer a regeneration service on the resin beads: n/c on the resin, $175.00 labor to do it...maybe in 20 yrs.

While 4 of us will be in the house we have guest from time to time. He said this system should handle 8-10 people.

I asked him about make and models. He said the head is made by Fleck. The manufactures are BR Industries and International Filter and that there assembled in Arizona. This guy admits to being a contractor with no store front or sales people and therefore can offer lower prices. I asked about doing a water test to determine if the system is right for us and after asking where were located he said he's put in almost 50 systems in that area and that are water is 18 grain hard. One thing that made me weary was asking if the units have been tested by The Underwriters Labratory, The Water Quailty Association and or The National Sanitary Association. He believed these product lines were but could not confirm if they beared their seal...Is this a conceren? I've checked him out on the phoenix BBB as well as The Arizona Contracot License board and he looks legit with no complaints. While I believe you get what you pay for I am on a budget and saving $400 to $600.00 is a concern at this time. I'm moving this Sat. and need to make a decision quickly. If there's any issues I've missed please reply and I'll follow ASAP. Any help appreciated.

Thanks,

Bill

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Comments (7)

User
17 years ago
His price sounds good, as does his equipment. While I don't like the fact that he didn't test your water, he is correct that city water should be the same in all houses served by the same water facility. I'm not sure what he means by regeneration in 20 years. That should be replacement. I have no issue with UL, etc. since there aren't a lot of companies that make there units-it would be odd to find a Fleck unit that wasn't okay. Either the mechanical or digital control is fine. Mechanical may be a bit more reliable, but digital is more intuitive for most homeowners.

Ask for a reference so you can find out how he takes care of his customers. If that turns out okay, I would personally go for the lower price.
User
17 years ago
Hi Bill,

International Filter has been around quite a while. They assemble and sell softeners to independent water treatment dealers. They offer industry standard, quality components.

I prefer the "SE" (simple electronics) 5600SE over the non-electronic. It's easier to fine tune the softener. Controlling softeners is something that intergrated circuits are well suited for and they have proven very reliable.

Both the Clack WS1 and Fleck 5600SE only come in the "Noryl" material which is state of the art and very reliable.

I'd have a PRV (pressure reducing valve) installed at the house service pressure between 60-70lbs. Higher than that and you may have some problems.

While a 48k softener might be correctly sized for 4 people if you have 8-10 people then it'll be regenerating WAY TOO OFTEN. To calculate the correct softener size for your house and family it would help to know the water conditions

Since you're dealing with a local dealer you should be getting a parts AND labor warranty. A labor warranty of only one year doesn't show much faith in the product by the seller.

This (second) dealer seems to be giving you some "iffy" advice, but seems to be cheaper than the dealer in your first post. Seems like they charge less because they know less.

It doesn't matter how large the brine (salt) tank is. It's best to keep only enough salt in the tank to cover the water. That cuts down on salt "bridging" and gets you in the habit of checking the salt and softener once a week.
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Water softeners are sized based on the water conditions, # of people, # of bathrooms, and other variables. Based on what you posted you should be looking at around a 3.5 cu ft softener and with it setup to operate at an efficient salt dose will regenerate every 7 days. You might get by with a 2.5 cu ft softener but it will not operate as efficiently (will use more salt) and have a lower SFR. As for installation... if the water service is accessible in the basement and there is a drain and an electrical outlet you're basically looking at local plumber rates and materials. Plumbers can install softeners, and some install them backwards, so an install by a water treatment pro is preferred. Before you make any decisions may I suggest... Hit the Yellow Pages and call at least three local water treatment pros. Make sure you call at least one of the big dogs like Kinetico or Culligan for comparison and at least a couple independent pros. Give each an opportunity to offer suggestions and provide you with a quote to meet your water treatment needs. IGNORE ANY THAT DON'T TEST YOUR WATER THEMSELVES as they can't speak intelligently to water treatment without knowing what needs to be treated. Ask lots of questions. Softening the entire house or just the water heater (IMO a bad idea)? Warranty, parts & labor or just parts, how long and on exactly what? Install, permits required, licensed plumber? Routine maintenance and costs? Do they stock parts? Response time for emergency (water leak) calls? If they don't explain things to your satisfaction that is a good indicator of how you'll be treated after the sale. Are all your treatment needs being addressed? Ask your neighbors if they have any water treatment experience. They might tell you who's good or who to avoid. Come back here and post the specific recommendations and hardware components with the costs and we'll give you our opinions.
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Virgin resin does not need to be regenerated to put it into service. New resin is good to go right out of the bag. There will be some water left in the brine tank even after BD (brine draw) cause the pickup is slightly above the bottom of the tank. Here's how the Fleck 7000 works... the last step in regeneration is BF (brine fill). The amount of water put in the brine tank is calculated to dissolve the amount of salt we determine. For you it's 20 lbs so 20/3 (gallon of water dissolves 3 lbs of salt)= 6.7 or 7 rounded off. You have a BLFC (brine line flow control) that is .125 gpm so 7/.125=56 minutes, the BF setting. I told you 54 but you can use 56. During BD (brine draw) the control valve sucks the brine from the brine tank into the resin tank. All the brine the pickup can get will be sucked into the resin long before the 60 minute BD is up. That's what the air check is for... so there's no air being sucked into the resin. After the first regeneration the correct (amount we calculated) amount of water returned to the brine tank. The control valve knows, if it's set up correctly, so trust it. The Fleck 2310 safety float only comes into play if the control valve goes haywire and water is continuously sent to the brine tank. Even in the worst scenario if the control valve goes nuts and the safety float doesn't work there's an overflow gravity drain fitting on the back of the brine tank that should be plumbed to a drain. In an industry standard softener (like yours) the float does not set the correct amount of water to make the correct amount of brine. Kinetico uses the float to set the brine level and the brine line is always under line pressure. I'd never buy a Kinetico because of that design choice.
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wildwillyguitar
Original Author
17 years ago
Thanks for the response. Here's a link to his site with the two models I'm looking at:
CS562P and CS56SE
http://www.americanhomewater.com/products
His response to regeneration is 20 years was to replace the resin.
Thanks for your help!
Bill
User
17 years ago
Bill,

I don't need the link, he's selling industry standard common stuff. Nothing special but that's not a bad thing.

********************************
My concerns are (as stated BEFORE):

While a 48k softener might be correctly sized for 4 people if you have 8-10 people then it'll be regenerating WAY TOO OFTEN. To calculate the correct softener size for your house and family it would help to know the water conditions

Since you're dealing with a local dealer you should be getting a parts AND labor warranty. A labor warranty of only one year doesn't show much faith in the product by the seller.
*************************************

I don't understand "His response to regeneration is 20 years was to replace the resin".

My question for him is, if a 48k softener is correctly sized for your family of 4 then how will "handle" 8-10 people?

Sure, it will "handle" 8-10 people but it will be TOO SMALL and regenerate TOO often thereby WASTING WATER AND SALT.

If indeed, he told you that it will handle 8-10 people then I'd run to another dealer. If you're looking for the absolute cheapest, then you found your dealer BUT, the bitterness of poor quality and poor service lingers long after the sweetness of low price is gone.

And AGAIN, we can't help you if you won't give us the info we need... what are the conditons of your water? Hardness, iron, mangnesium, TDS???
wildwillyguitar
Original Author
17 years ago
I apologize, I did not clarify regarding 8-10 people. He DID NOT say it would handle 8-10 people. There might be times when we have 2 or more people stay for a couple of days, not permanently. We usually have our folks visit once or twice a year.
It seems everyone I've dealt with only offers 1 yr. labor warranty.

I'm not looking for the cheapest, I'm just on a budget and 1300 to 1500 will not be possible.

In regards to the water conditions (Hardness, iron, mangnesium, ect... I take it I could take a sample somewhere and have it tested????

Thanks again for your help!
Bill
User
17 years ago
Setting aside, for the moment, whether a 48k softener is correctly sized for your house, water usage and water conditons (which should be calculated before you make out the check)...

You have to make sure that the $900 softener IS the same as the $1300 one. "Similar" is not the "same".

Resin should be Purolite or Ionac brand
Resin tank should be Structural brand
Brine tank should be Clack brand (round or rectanglular)
Brine tank pickup and safety float should be a Fleck 2310
Control valve: Fleck 5600SE or Fleck 2510SE or Clack WS1

Those are the top quality component brands.

Make sure that the "softener loop" in your house in on the main water supply and not just feeding your water heater. There was someone on the forum a while ago from had a "softener loop" in a new house that only fed the water heater.
User
17 years ago
Bill,

I noticed in one of your posts the mention of 18g hardness. Based on that figure and IF there's no iron, and no magnesium in your water a 48k (1.5 cu ft resin) softener would be marginal for 4 people.

Based on those figures a 48k softener would be regenerating about once a week (good frequency) but in order to treat your hardness it would be set at medium salt dose which is not efficent.

I'd look at the next larger softener (2 cu ft of resin) and that would be set to minimum salt dose. Over the course of a yeasr you'd save some money. When company comes a couple button pushes and the softener is set for 6 people (the benefits of a microporcessor control).

Sounds like you've found a softener seller that has low overhead and his best close is that he's less expensive. He is selling competent hardware BUT he doesn't seem willing to test your water and isn't giving you the options for the most efficently operating softener.

I don't care how many softeners someone installs in my area, I want my water tested so there is a record of why the dealer recommend what they did.

If your hardness is higher than 18g and there's iron or magnesium in your water then the figures are wrong and need to be recalculated.

Water Softener New Purchase Advice

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