seeking recommendation for water softener
charlie_nh
10 years ago
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10 years agocharlie_nh
10 years agoRelated Discussions
Water softener/filter recommendation
Comments (7)Since the cost difference between the two sizes is small, I would go with the larger softener. The size of your home, number of bathrooms, and your indication that you will have a large number of guests at a time make the 2.0 cubic ft softener a better choice. When it is just the two of you, it will go up to 12 days between regenerations, which is fine with your water quality. The following requirements are for an industry standard softener. If you are looking for a non-electronic softener, Kinetico offers the more reliable options at a premium price (and you would need to deal with a local Kinetico rep). Any decent softener vendor should be able to provide the following: High quality American or German made resin. This will provide a tight size distribution for optimal flow within the resin Since you have CITY WATER: 10% crosslinked resin. The oxidizers that city water treatment plants use, such as chlorine or chloramine, are harmful to softener resins. Higher crosslinking will resist chemical attack longer. Top basket. This serves two purposes. It sets up a proper water distribution during normal operation and prevents resin loss during backwash. Gravel underbed. Since you will have a larger residential softener, this is very important. The gravel underbed is there to set up proper flow patterns, improve backwash, keep the bottom basket in place, prevent basket failure, and prevent channeling. Many softener sales companies like to leave this out or sell softeners with a vortex system instead. Vortex systems weigh less than gravel so they cost less to ship. In addition, they are a more expensive item that adds profit for the softener salesperson, but provides no additional benefit to the homeowner . It simply adds another piece of equipment that can break. Fleck or Clack valves. If you choose Fleck, get the 7000sxt. These set the industry standard. Be aware that you will not be able to purchase Clack valves online. This is not a problem if you purchase locally. The valve should regen based on water usage, not time. Noryl bypass. Most softeners are available with either Noryl or stainless bypass valves. Both are good valves, but the noryl tends to be more reliable when not used for long periods of time. Install the softener with a three-valve bypass. This will make it so much easier if you ever need to remove the softener for repairs or wish to take it with you when you move. Use full-port, quarter-turn valves. This post was edited by aliceinwonderland_id on Mon, Mar 31, 14 at 10:31...See MoreNeed recommendation on water softener
Comments (22)Some clarification on how various types of softeners work. 1. Big box brands are two tank type softeners with the resin tank inside the salt tank called a cabinet model. They can have a day timer or a metered/demand regenerated control valve. Day timer use is very rare. Meters can be mechanical or electronic. 2. Two tank models with separated resin and salt tanks are the 'norm'. 3. Twin tank alternating immediate regenerated, normally with water flow through only one resin tank at a time although their are twin tank softeners that allow water to the house through both tanks at the same time until a tank has to be regenerated. Clack and Kinetico make them but there is a large difference. The Clack has either upflow or downflow regeneration and a control valve on each tank where Kinetico has only one. Clack does not leave full main line water pressure on the brine line and float in the brine tank as Kinetico does. You can change all the settings on an Autotrol, Clack or Fleck where Kinetico does not allow the owner to do that without getting different parts and taking the control valve apart. 4. The vast majority of softeners today regenerate automatically but there are manual type control valves and they can be used on any style of two tank type softener but not on twin tank types. Since they are not automatic, the control valve has no metered or day timer and they do not need electric power. 5. The vast majority of NSF and WQA testing is done for marketing purposes by those companies submitting their products for testing. Rarely is equipment used in commercial installations certified and... that is the same (Autotrol, Clack, Erie and Fleck control valve) equipment most independent dealers sell their residential customers. 6. All types of softeners have advantages and disadvantages but mostly they are unimportant and used mostly in marketing and sales hype. 7. All softeners can use various types of cation resins and either sodium chloride softener salt or potassium chloride salt substitute. 8. Many two tank type softeners can be upflow/countercurrent brined and regenerated with softened water brine refill. 9. Many softeners have variable reserve and some have variable brining. Variable usually uses more total salt and water than regular brined softeners. 10. The capacity of ALL types of softeners is dictated by a salt dose setting in a given volume and type of resin. The volume of resin dictates the size of the softener in cubic feet and the size of the resin tank. The size of the resin tank dictates the model of control valve that can be used to service that size tank when used for a softener or backwashed only or regenerated filter. 11. The salt efficiency of a softener is found by dividing the pounds of salt per regeneration into the capacity in K grains. The capacity is established by the number of days or gallons of water used between regenerations and then the salt dose required to create that capacity in that volume and type of resin. I.E. the Fleck 5600 can not be used for a softener on larger than a 12" diameter tank (see the Fleck 5600 spec sheet). Ten inch for a filter. 12. Upflow counter-current regenerated types are not more efficient than downflow co-current types if the same type and volume of resin is used. Counter-current can resist hardness breakthrough longer than co-current regeneration but, normally you would not run a residential softener close enough to bed exhaustion to make a difference; except in twin tank types softeners due to them having little to no reserve capacity when they regenerate but... They use softened water to regenerate each tank and that uses salt to create the capacity used for each regeneration. Unless packed bed design (no free board) upflow counter current regeneration uses the same amount of water and takes the same length of time to regenerate the same type and volume of resin in the other types of softeners regardless if day timer, metered, variable reserve or variable brined OR NOT. 13. The vast majority of people needing a softener do not need a twin tank type softener. Those that do, have water being used 24/7 when once a week or so another type softener would regenerate, usually at 2:00 AM for an hour and 15-30 minutes. When all twin tank type softeners regenerate, the household shares water flow and pressure with the tank that is being regenerated. That reduces the service flow rating (SFR) gpm of the softener by at least half. That increases the probably of hardness getting through the softener to the fixtures and water heater etc.. 14. The number of gallons used to size and program a two tank type softener varies from 50-125 gals/person/day based on how the company or dealer determines the reserve capacity figure. Variable reserve type control valves allow the computer to do the calculation. In ALL instances the figure is the result of a math calculation. Twin tank types calculate the total water in gallons between regenerations AND ADD the number of gallons (the capacity) used to regenerate each tank AND they must prevent the resin from allowing hardness through before regeneration so they don't use all the capacity (as some salespeople claim) before a regeneration. Math will prove that. 15. A reserve capacity is used so that if more water is used than 'normal' the softener won't run out of capacity before the next regeneration. It's like stopping for gas before the engine starts to sputter or actually stops. You don't waste or throw away the gas left in the tank when you buy more before the gauge gets too low... 16. It is vary rare to run a two tank type softener out of capacity, even when overnight guests drop in. 17. Variable brining causes the softener to regenerate more often, that uses more water (and sewer) than the same softener would if not using variable brining. Using less salt and water per regeneration sounds great, until you add up the total number of regenerations and see that the softener is using more salt and water than the same two tank type would use with just one regeneration every 7-9 days. And math doesn't lie. 18. Many times a softener using 1.8 lbs of salt but regenerating like 2-3 times a day, will use more total salt and water than a softener sized for one regeneration on an average of every 8 days. I.E 1.8 lbs and 35 gallons each regeneration, how many regenerations per 7-9 days times those figures is the only true comparison. 19. A two tank type softener does not run out of capacity because Xxx gallons were run thought it while 400 gallons per day was used in the calculations. Demand/metered softener control valves measure the 'extra' water use and then regenerate when needed regardless of how many people are there. If the meter runs down to zero gals remaining, you run on the reserve capacity until the next regeneration. Dont let the actions of a few discourage you from seeking more help or advice. I hope this helps. A Google search shows that in the last ten years plus I have roughly 15000 posts like this between Google Groups and on web site forums. You'll have to decide if I'm over the top as Aliceinwonderland says. BTW Aliceinwonderland, in your opinion with you having little to no sales experience but obviously an ox having been gored somewhere, presumingly by me, would you care to compare what you think is the best control valve to a Clack WS-1? If so I'd be glad to join you in a new thread....See MoreSeeking advice on new water softener
Comments (2)If you have sediment, absolutely install a sediment filter upstream from the water softener. Although your softener will act as a sediment filter if it must, it will damage the resin. A sediment filter can either be a backwashing media filter (looks similar to a softener), or a cartridge filter. Both work very well. A backwashing filter will cost much more to install, but can mostly be ignored once it is operational. Filter cartridges are cheaper to install, but filters should be changed every six months or as needed. If you choose filter cartridges, look for "Big Blue." Go with the 4" diameter, not the 2". You didn't mention any other water parameters. Since you are on well water, it is important to have a comprehensive water test to include: TDS, pH, hardness, alkalinity, sulfides, iron, manganeses, bacteria, any others recommended by your local lab As to softener size, if hardness is your only issue you should be looking in the 1.5 - 2.0 cuft size range. However, if you have iron and/or manganese in your water they will greatly affect proper softener size. If the home has been there for years without a softener and you don't see signs of iron (rusty stains) or manganese (black stains that aren't bacterial), then they likely won't affect softener size, but even tiny amounts will affect resin life, so best to be certain. Since you are not happy with your Kinetico rep (for good reason), either Culligan or the independent will be fine. My preference would be the independent dealer over Culligan solely because Fleck parts are readily available from multiple sources whereas Culligan parts are only available from Culligan. You want to ensure your new softener meets some basic standards: High quality American or German made resin. This will provide a tight size distribution for optimal flow within the resin, longer resin life, and more reliable, predicable water softening. Since you have WELL WATER: 8% crosslinked resin. Top basket. This serves two purposes. It sets up a proper water distribution during normal operation and prevents resin loss during backwash. Gravel underbed. The gravel underbed is there to set up proper flow patterns, improve backwash, keep the bottom basket in place, prevent basket failure, and prevent channeling. Many softener sales companies like to leave this out or sell softeners with a vortex system instead. Vortex systems weigh less than gravel so they cost less to ship. In addition, they are a more expensive item that adds profit for the softener salesperson, but provides no additional benefit to the homeowner . It simply adds another piece of equipment that can break. Fleck or Clack valves. These set the industry standard. Be aware that you will not be able to purchase Clack valves online. This is not a problem if you purchase locally. The valve should regen based on water usage, not time. Noryl bypass. Most softeners are available with either Noryl......See MoreRecommendation on whole house water softener
Comments (58)@Bob Ack "Do you know what the difference is between various expensive branded water softeners that are salt-based?" To be clear, all softeners are "salt based". If they don't use ion exchange to remove hardness ions and replace with sodium, it's not a softener. The answer to your question is "Not much". There are only a few major components to a water softener: The control valve. Two of the best brand of control valves are Fleck and Clack. Both are widely available, reliable, and have a big installed base. Fleck is available on the web while Clack is not. Resin. There are some different types of resin, depending on chlorine levels, iron, etc. At one time the best quality resin was coming from DuPont - but most is being sourced from China now. The tanks, distributor screens, etc. It's very easy to build your own softener using off-the-shelf tanks, resin and control valve -- and that's what many local water treatment folks do. Since a good quality water softener with a Fleck valve can be purchased on Amazon for about $800, there just isn't a lot of profit to be made in that business. That's why there's been a boon in "High-End" water treatment that is mostly snake oil....See Morecharlie_nh
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