click here for a little light reading...

The Autotrol valve system is very well designed system. I live in an area where 25-30 grains of hardness is not uncommon with iron. 48-55000 grains is what we recommend. If money is an issue drop down one level to a 38-40k system. It will meet you needs.

Here is a link that might be useful: DIY Product Reviews

Justalurker : I had actually read this thread and also others but other than telling me that you would recommend the Kinetico above the other two (culligan and Ecowater) it doesn't help me with the relative merits of the GE Autotrol and the Kinetico and which unit you would recommend. In fact, I can find very, very, little info about the GE Autotrol on any of the posts. Should I be worried about that?

Appmy: Thanks for the link but I couldn't find any info on the website about water softeners. Am I missing something?

cam06,

You will find the Kinetico is hands-down the better unit for a great many reasons including being a twin-tank design, counter-current regeneration, extensive warranty, performance guarantee, lower salt usage, virtually no hardness leakage, handles higher levels of iron, uses no electricity, and so on.

Your initial higher price is more than made up for with lower operating costs, simplicity in use and higher quality of water 24/7/365.

The GE autotrol valve is a good valve and does what it is designed to do, fortuntely, so does the Kinetico and it is designed to do so much more.

You won't make a mistake to go with quality, especially with something as important as your water.

Andy Christesnen, CWS-II

For basic things (laundry and kitchen machines; water softeners; cars) my "philosophy" is to evaluate and shop carefully. I generally grumble about the price of superior units but I only write the check once. For items that govern the quality of my life 24/7/365 I want good, consistent performance. I don't want problems. I want to solve the problem once and with gusto. In the case of water softeners, my two Kineticos have held up their part of the deal. They were expensive but they've been durable, trouble-free, and refurbishable. After 15 no-hassle years, I just recently had them re-built and re-loaded for a couple hundred each. Overall, I think they've been an excellent value.

"In fact, I can find very, very, little info about the GE Autotrol on any of the posts. Should I be worried about that?"

Should you?

Part of the price difference between the Autotrol you were quoted and the Kinetico is ONE LESS RESIN TANK and LESS RESIN. You want advice you on an "apples and oranges" decision.

In my mind, the question wouldn't be Autotrol or Kinetico. The question would be Autotrol or Fleck and Fleck would be my choice.

The Kinetico is another control entirely and there is no other twin (resin) tank softener that has the features of a Kinetico.

Well, the question could be rephrased to "is a two tank system with a mechanical control a much better value than a single tank system with an electric control"? Is it worth the difference in price?

I don't know - given that I now know 100% more about water softeners than I did a week ago I still can't answer that question and therefore was looking for advice.

"Is a two tank system with a mechanical control a much better value than a single tank system with an electric control?"

Both Kinetico and electronically controlled valves are MECHANICAL. The Kinetico counts water usage, initiates and mangages regeneration mechanically driven by water pressure and flow. Electronically controlled valves have a mechanical turbine (water wheel) that counts water usage but the initiation and managment of regeneration is electronically controlled with an electric motor stepping the control MECHANICALLY through the regeneration steps.

That said, The Kinetico is independent of any power fluctuations or outages which IMO makes it more dependable.

"Is it worth the difference in price?"

Do you want a NY bagel or a Jersey bagel? They're both bagels. Are the NY bagels worth the difference in price?

"Is it worth the difference in price?"

You choose to live in a place where you have justified the cost difference over living elsewhere. Is living in NY worth the difference in price over living in Newark?

"Is it worth the difference in price?"

Do you want soft water 24/7 with keeping salt in the brine tank your only chore?

Do you want more efficient and cost effective softener operation?

Do you want the added cost of electricity to provide you soft water?

"Is it worth the difference in price?"

Kinetico softeners are the least posted about softeners on all the self-help forums.

I direct you to Asolo's posts (do a seach if you like) on this forum. He is a Kinetico customer and echos the experiences from many other Kinetico customers.

"Is it worth the difference in price?"

I suscribe to the Charles Emerson Winchester III's (from M*A*S*H) theory of "I do one thing, I do it very well, and then I move on". Kinetico is like that. Do it once and move on.

"Is it worth the difference in price?"

It's your money and only you can make that choice... well, you and the boss :)

Alice...,

I agree, in principle, with everything that you said. Your advice is direct and sound.

You are right about my bias about Kinetico as I have dealt with a large number of water treatment products in sales, installation, and service over the years and have made comparisons through experience.

My "far and away" statement was meant as a comparison with cam06's Culligan, whether it be a Gold, Medalist or Platinum series models. I would put a ten-year-old Kinetico up against any of those brand new.

"Best," of course is a subjective term and one man's dungeon is another massage parlor. But when comparing salt usage, water consumption, hardness leakage, warranty, service longevity, easy of use, over all operational costs, etc., I stand by my words. I prefer to make judgments on objective values, including experience, testimonials and certifications.

We also offer Clack, Autotrol and Fleck valves as part of our inventory and their prices and warranties (always higher than manufacturers') reflect there ability to do the job.

I appreciate your open mindedness and objective views and agree about the 'sniping' and I hope I have been able to avoid being a part of that for all the pitfalls which accompany such behavior.

I agree with all over your 19 points but one should consider long-term costs when considering #15 as you might agree that going cheap CAN be very costly.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Hello Andy - Hello Justalurker.

Alice, is there any chance your evaluation of me is extremely biased and over the top?

I am wide open about who I am and what I do - for you to suggest otherwise is flat out wrong.

My background: 21 years in the H2O industry. Many years selling, then installing and servicing RainSoft systems.
I opened my small independent H2O service company 01/01/2000.
I have a few thousand existing RainSoft customers to care for. I replace obsolete/problematic RainSoft valves with Fleck 2510SE valves.
I sell new systems with the same Fleck valve to new customers and to replace obsolete equipment.
I am also authorized to sell EcoWater systems by the EcoWater dealer in my area. I do receive factory training and updates from EcoWater.
My clients are primarily homeowners. The mix of private wells and municipal water is about 50/50. I also have several commercial accounts. There are no secrets.
Enough about me ...

The sniping you speak of is a product of Gary Slusser and his false accusations, total lack of professionalism and personal attacks.
This sniping did not exist before he arrived and it will cease the moment he goes away.
Slusser is a master at disparaging all competition. Given the chance he would rip into you even though you are not his competition.

You gave some decent practical free softener advice, allow me to comment...

1. Support your local H2O specialist ~ support your local economy.

2. Shop around. Get estimates.

3. Ask for references and check them.

4. Talk to people that have been serviced by the companies you are considering.

5. Look for people that have had their system for over 3 years and ask them about service, performance and maintenance cost.

6. If you are on chlorinated municipal water defiantly consider a modern softener with carbon. Service life is not shortened.

7. Cheaper systems are cheaper for a reason.

8. You negotiate when you are looking at a high end vehicle, home, etc...
why would you not negotiate the purchase of a high end H2O system?

9. The warranty is important - read it!

I could go on, but you get the idea.

Regards,
H2O MAN

Hi Alice - thanks for the information and your response. Hmmmm, there's quite a bit bubbling below the surface here, isn't there.
I did get a sense that you were trying to level the playing field and set guidelines to follow and I do appreciate that.

This is where we are...

We plan to buy local from a merchant who specializes in water products.

We have had our water tested both by the vendors who gave us estimates as well as by a lab (the latter was several yrs ago). Water stats are as I wrote in my first post of this thread.

We have not requested references because I guess I figure that the names will have been selected to just give good references.

I will ask where resin tanks are stored.

We are seriously considering the Kinetico and your comments raised some questions.

1. Given our requirements (two of us in the household but we do have 3-4 houseguests for 3-5 weeks at a time several times a year) is the 2030 model undersized for us?

2. "If sized to regenerate more often than once daily, they may not soften adequately." What can we do to prevent this?

Let me add thanks here also to Andy, justalurker and H2O man.

cam

Andy will be better able to answer specific questions about Kinetico models, so I will leave that to him. As to the regeneration issue, you will need to ask how many gallons of water will pass through the unit before a regen is necessary and figure out how often that will be based on water usage. If you have long-term guests that often you will need to ensure the softener is sized for the higher usage rate. The problem with more frequent regenerations is that salt just doesn't dissolve very quickly. 12 hours is bare minimum in a warmer climate where water temperatures are warmer. In cold climates, where water entering the home is very cold, longer times are required to dissolve salt, and 24 hours is minimum if you want a strong brine solution (necessary for consistent regeneration).

Because Kinetico softeners are typically seized to regenerate more frequently than a single-tank softener, they do have to be sized more carefully in a situation like yours. In a standard softener, regenerating every 3 days instead of every 7 won't affect brine strength. In a Kinetico, generating every 8-12 hours instead of every 24 hrs will result in weaker brine and less-soft water. It will just take some careful planning - not a big deal with a competent salesperson.

FWIW....my Kinetico (don't know model#) is their standard household unit using two "1/2-size" tanks that alternate automatically. Our usual household is two people but we frequently have week-long visits by parties of 2-4 addtional adding their flushing, bathing, and laundry to the load. Delivered water from the softener is always dead-soft. No problem that way. The device just does what it needs to do when it needs to do it. I was curious about it and bought a titration kit to measure during these periods so I'm positive there was no change in softness.

am06,

With the water quality issues you have presented and the model recommended, there is a wonderful match there. Your recent concerns about having enough brine solution for the regenerations, regardless of frequency, should never be a matter.

First of all, Kinetico softeners are third-party tested by NSF (National Sanitation Foundation) and those tests are verified by the WQA (Water Quality Association). These tests are not component testing but, instead, are systemic testing, meaning the actual unit is put on line and tested under strict guidelines which follow a large number of parameters.

I won't go into those details but they have been certified to product less than one grain per gallon following standard operating procedures which include running 24 hours per day and removing in excess of 370,000 grains in a 24 hour period as compare to other softeners which typically remove 21,000 32,000, or 45,000 grains in a given period.

Of course rarely would anyone ever come that close, but that is the range.

Being a counter-current regeneration device, it will use much less salt that typical softeners that regenerate in a co-current fashion, as well as less water and a shorter time.

Now then, with your particular situation; at your water quality and variable water use by having visitors now and then, this is a n excellent application to serve those needs.

Single tank systems normally figure regenerations according to the water quality (hardness, iron, etc.) and the number of people using water estimating that each person will account for 75 gallons per day. Now, of course, this is just an estimate and never actually uses that much for each person everyday but they have to determine a figure that will assure the user that hard water will not creep into the household. So Rule-of-Thumb is to over-estimate rather then under-estimate.

A reserve capacity must be set to allow that maximum use. Many times that reserve capacity is not exhausted other times it may be.

Some newer softeners have computer controlled water monitoring and variable brining which is a step in the right direction.

Kinetico puts their softeners through the rigorous testing of NSF (National Sanitation Foundation) and the WQA (Water Quality Association). These are not component testing, which may test one part or aspect of the equipment, but are systemic testing procedures which means the system, as a whole, is put on line and tested as if it were in a home. This assures the buyer that they are getting what is marketed.

Single tank softeners are set to regenerate according to two basic parameters: The quality of water and the number of people using water in a given day. There are other aspects such as flow rate (gpm), special water issues, public vs private use, etc.

It is a guessing game but usually it is ample to provide good water, most of the time. When your guests go away, simple follow instructions and re-set your softener for the number of gallons you think you will use everyday after that point.

You stated that you have as many as 6 persons staying in your house. That would be 6 x 75 or 450 gallons of water. But hey, lets imagine the in-laws popped in at the wrong time, and, they brought their laundry. That would be an estimated 600 gallons per day.

The amount of brine solution available before any regeneration will be about 8 pounds worth of salt. Since your softener would be set to use only 1.8 pounds per regeneration at every 650 gallons, there will be than ample amount for your family and those dirty guests, even if you ran water all day long. Mind you, I am going on the water quality that you have presented. Other water issues may cause settings to vary.

It will use 29 gallons per cycle and last about 35 minutes. The efficiency is 4,371 grains per pound of salt, which is NSF certified and far surpasses even CaliforniaÂs strict codes for water treatment using ion exchange devices.

Cam06, not to worry about the so-called limits others have placed on this system. It just may be that they were unfamiliar with the workings of this particular valve.

As for the Âbubbling it only worries those who worry about it. DonÂt let the actions of a few discourage you from seeking help or advice.

I hope this helped.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

I either don't know all that or have forgotten it. All I know is I've had zero problems in 15 years (just refurbished and reloaded both units at different locations ), my water is always soft, and I never run out no matter what. The units are set for regeneration according to worst-known hardness anomalies of local supply (pretty consistent at about 7-8 grains) and when a given amount has passed through one tank it switches automatically to the fresh tank and regenerates the exhausted one. Seems like a good idea to me. Seemless operation and no problems -- I like that.

Just wanted to post a final note to let you know that we did buy the Kinetico 2030. It is installed and working fine. The distributer recommended taking out the salt bridge since we are using potassium.

Thanks to all for your help - especially Andy and Alice.

cam

Some clarification on how various types of softeners work.

1. Big box brands are two tank type softeners with the resin tank inside the salt tank called a cabinet model. They can have a day timer or a metered/demand regenerated control valve. Day timer use is very rare. Meters can be mechanical or electronic.

2. Two tank models with separated resin and salt tanks are the 'norm'.

3. Twin tank alternating immediate regenerated, normally with water flow through only one resin tank at a time although their are twin tank softeners that allow water to the house through both tanks at the same time until a tank has to be regenerated. Clack and Kinetico make them but there is a large difference. The Clack has either upflow or downflow regeneration and a control valve on each tank where Kinetico has only one. Clack does not leave full main line water pressure on the brine line and float in the brine tank as Kinetico does. You can change all the settings on an Autotrol, Clack or Fleck where Kinetico does not allow the owner to do that without getting different parts and taking the control valve apart.

4. The vast majority of softeners today regenerate automatically but there are manual type control valves and they can be used on any style of two tank type softener but not on twin tank types. Since they are not automatic, the control valve has no metered or day timer and they do not need electric power.

5. The vast majority of NSF and WQA testing is done for marketing purposes by those companies submitting their products for testing. Rarely is equipment used in commercial installations certified and... that is the same (Autotrol, Clack, Erie and Fleck control valve) equipment most independent dealers sell their residential customers.

6. All types of softeners have advantages and disadvantages but mostly they are unimportant and used mostly in marketing and sales hype.

7. All softeners can use various types of cation resins and either sodium chloride softener salt or potassium chloride salt substitute.

8. Many two tank type softeners can be upflow/countercurrent brined and regenerated with softened water brine refill.

9. Many softeners have variable reserve and some have variable brining. Variable usually uses more total salt and water than regular brined softeners.

10. The capacity of ALL types of softeners is dictated by a salt dose setting in a given volume and type of resin.

The volume of resin dictates the size of the softener in cubic feet and the size of the resin tank. The size of the resin tank dictates the model of control valve that can be used to service that size tank when used for a softener or backwashed only or regenerated filter.

11. The salt efficiency of a softener is found by dividing the pounds of salt per regeneration into the capacity in K grains. The capacity is established by the number of days or gallons of water used between regenerations and then the salt dose required to create that capacity in that volume and type of resin. I.E. the Fleck 5600 can not be used for a softener on larger than a 12" diameter tank (see the Fleck 5600 spec sheet). Ten inch for a filter.

12. Upflow counter-current regenerated types are not more efficient than downflow co-current types if the same type and volume of resin is used.

Counter-current can resist hardness breakthrough longer than co-current regeneration but, normally you would not run a residential softener close enough to bed exhaustion to make a difference; except in twin tank types softeners due to them having little to no reserve capacity when they regenerate but... They use softened water to regenerate each tank and that uses salt to create the capacity used for each regeneration.

Unless packed bed design (no free board) upflow counter current regeneration uses the same amount of water and takes the same length of time to regenerate the same type and volume of resin in the other types of softeners regardless if day timer, metered, variable reserve or variable brined OR NOT.

13. The vast majority of people needing a softener do not need a twin tank type softener. Those that do, have water being used 24/7 when once a week or so another type softener would regenerate, usually at 2:00 AM for an hour and 15-30 minutes. When all twin tank type softeners regenerate, the household shares water flow and pressure with the tank that is being regenerated. That reduces the service flow rating (SFR) gpm of the softener by at least half. That increases the probably of hardness getting through the softener to the fixtures and water heater etc..

14. The number of gallons used to size and program a two tank type softener varies from 50-125 gals/person/day based on how the company or dealer determines the reserve capacity figure. Variable reserve type control valves allow the computer to do the calculation. In ALL instances the figure is the result of a math calculation. Twin tank types calculate the total water in gallons between regenerations AND ADD the number of gallons (the capacity) used to regenerate each tank AND they must prevent the resin from allowing hardness through before regeneration so they don't use all the capacity (as some salespeople claim) before a regeneration. Math will prove that.

15. A reserve capacity is used so that if more water is used than 'normal' the softener won't run out of capacity before the next regeneration. It's like stopping for gas before the engine starts to sputter or actually stops. You don't waste or throw away the gas left in the tank when you buy more before the gauge gets too low...

16. It is vary rare to run a two tank type softener out of capacity, even when overnight guests drop in.

17. Variable brining causes the softener to regenerate more often, that uses more water (and sewer) than the same softener would if not using variable brining. Using less salt and water per regeneration sounds great, until you add up the total number of regenerations and see that the softener is using more salt and water than the same two tank type would use with just one regeneration every 7-9 days. And math doesn't lie.

18. Many times a softener using 1.8 lbs of salt but regenerating like 2-3 times a day, will use more total salt and water than a softener sized for one regeneration on an average of every 8 days. I.E 1.8 lbs and 35 gallons each regeneration, how many regenerations per 7-9 days times those figures is the only true comparison.

19. A two tank type softener does not run out of capacity because Xxx gallons were run thought it while 400 gallons per day was used in the calculations. Demand/metered softener control valves measure the 'extra' water use and then regenerate when needed regardless of how many people are there. If the meter runs down to zero gals remaining, you run on the reserve capacity until the next regeneration.

Dont let the actions of a few discourage you from seeking more help or advice.

I hope this helps. A Google search shows that in the last ten years plus I have roughly 15000 posts like this between Google Groups and on web site forums. You'll have to decide if I'm over the top as Aliceinwonderland says.

BTW Aliceinwonderland, in your opinion with you having little to no sales experience but obviously an ox having been gored somewhere, presumingly by me, would you care to compare what you think is the best control valve to a Clack WS-1? If so I'd be glad to join you in a new thread.

A Gary by any other name is easy to recognize.

It can't be Gary Slusser. He has been banned from this and numerous other forums due to his aggressive attitude and blantant attempts to sell Clack WS-I valves through forum contributions, all the while, attacking anyone else who doesn't agree with him on every point and piece of equipment.

Would you say that mhlurker is behaving that way?

Surely, Gary Slusser wouldn't attempt to do it after being banned. That would be a no-no...or an act of desperation.

Direct quote from mhlurker:

I wonder if you could tell me more about the Clack twin tank softener. Very intersting.

I googled mhlurker and it only came up with someone who looks like he has a chip on his shoulder and presents himself in a spiteful and rude manner. How were we supposed to google you, again? With hidden information and masking identity, is it hardly any wonder that the information presented is flimsy and unprofessioanl serving both bias and prejudice?

I believe that NSF and WQA certifications have an important place in the quality of our water treatment and ethics. Many of those who would actually oppose it might be due to their failure to attain such certification or deal in products that have either failure testing or lack the fortitude to have it conducted.

No, it couldn't be Gary Slusser, justalurker. He claims he is far too professional and has: "unquestionable integrity" (according to him) to stoop so low as to try and come in from the backdoor to a forum which openly banned him.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

mhlurker states:

"A Google search shows that in the last ten years plus I have roughly 15000 posts like this between Google Groups and on web site forums. You'll have to decide if I'm over the top as Aliceinwonderland says."

Still waiting for your kind response. How is it we are supposed to verify your background as you have invited us to do?

I'm looking for Cam06. I am looking to buy the Kinetico 2030 and am also in a suburb of NYC. I was initially quoted the exact same price as you. I am curious as to what you were able to negotiate. Hopefully you will see this post. Thank you!