Please help with water softener sizing

12 years ago

Hello Everyone,

I am planning to order a new water softener from OPWC.

I am new at this but have done a ton of research on Gardenweb and elsewhere.

Water test results so far

Hardness 18gpg

Iron 3ppm

TDS 355

2500 sq/ft house. 2 adults and 2 small children. No hot tub, nothing else that really uses a ton of water. 3 bathrooms.

Nitrates and bacteria were tested when we bought the house. I will have to dig out the results but I believe no bacteria or nitrates

Have not tested for sulphur or manganese yet. No sulphur smell.

Any recommendations for softener sizing?

Do I need SST resin?

Turbulator?

Thanks

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Comments (15)

User
12 years ago
So, you're on well water... right?

You'll want a more recent well water test than "when you bought the house" especially for nitrates and bacteria. Making your water nice is one thing but keeping your water SAFE is more important. I'd be testing for nitrates and bacteria annually.

Is iron 3ppm or .3ppm and ferrous (clear water) or ferric (red water)?

Plumbing 3/4" or 1" or what?

SFR?

Follow up with these details and we can help...
ribs1
Original Author
12 years ago
Hello,
I sent a sample out to the county to get tested for nitrates and bacteria yesterday. Should have results in a few days.
Iron is 3ppm clear water iron. (ferrous)
We are on a well.
I will go measure the plumbing right now.

I am still unclear how to measure the SFR. Will google it and get back to you.
Thanks
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100 miles... that's just down the road a piece. For a 2 cu ft softener I prefer the Fleck 7000SXT control (I linked to exactly that softener in my previous post) over the 5600SXT. The tank diameter limit of the 5600 is 12" and a 2 cu ft softener uses a 12x48 tank. I don't like pushing anything to the limit of it's specs. Aquatell doesn't seem to list the Fleck 7000SXT but they can get it with no problem. They offer the Clack, which appears to be a good valve, but is the new kid on the block without the long enviable service history of Fleck valves. Any of the Fleck SXT class controls allow custom settings for salt dose. In your circumstances you would set the control valve for 17 grains of (compensated) hardness, 4 lbs of salt / cu ft (4 lbs x 2 cu ft = 8 lbs salt total), and capacity at 30400 and that should regenerate every 7th or 8th day. You should set the calendar override at 8 days. Those settings will get you 3800 grains removed / pound of salt which is pretty darned efficient. Some softener sellers will disagree with me but you'll be smilin' at them for a long time.
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You will see closer to a 5% reduction using a twin system. The only way you would see close to a 15% reduction in salt usage is if somehow you always hit the cutoff right as you used the last drop of water for the day. Close, because twin tanks use softened water for brine make-up, which increases salt usage by a bit. You will save 2-3 lb potassium chloride per month using a twin vs single-tank system, assuming you regen with 4 lb salt/cuft of resin. It is possible to regen with an even lower salt dosage, but not successfully in a standard softener. For that you would need a packed bed softener, such as those offered by Kinetico. They are mechanically operated by water power, rather than electronically controlled. Although they come at a premium price, they are very reliable. If your chief concern is environmental, they are worth a look. The 2x1cuft twin system you have quoted above should work fine for your purposes if you prefer a Fleck softener. Alternately, a 1.5 cuft single tank would work. For watering outdoor plants you may wand to consider alternating between raw water and softener effluent. The effluent will have a very high TDS. Coupled with your already high pH, it could burn your plants if it is their primary source of water. There is a big difference between watering with potassium-softened water and watering with potassium chloride saturated water.
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I wouldn't bother with a twin tank unless you really don't think you have 2 hours available weekly when you won't be using any water . You will spend a lot more than a single tank with no real benefit. Do you have any high-water-use fixtures, such as a multi-head shower, large bathtub or jet tub? If not, you would be okay with a 1 cuft softener now, which would be a bit small when your family increases to four. A 1.25 cuft softener would be ideal. That size can be difficult to find, so a 1.5 cuft will be fine, and most likely little to no difference in price. Since you have some manganese, you will need to regen with 8 lb salt/cuft of resin, which will make your softener a bit less salt-efficient, but it's necessary to ensure the manganese gets stripped from the resin during regen. Make certain you get the following: High quality American or German made resin. This will provide a tight size distribution for optimal flow within the resin Since you have WELL WATER: 8% crosslinked resin. Top basket. This serves two purposes. It sets up a proper water distribution during normal operation and prevents resin loss during backwash. Gravel underbed. The gravel underbed is there to set up proper flow patterns, improve backwash, keep the bottom basket in place, prevent basket failure, and prevent channeling. Many softener sales companies like to leave this out or sell softeners with a vortex system instead. Vortex systems weigh less than gravel so they cost less to ship. In addition, they are a more expensive item that adds profit for the softener salesperson, but provides no additional benefit to the homeowner . It simply adds another piece of equipment that can break. Fleck or Clack valves. These set the industry standard. Be aware that you will not be able to purchase Clack valves online. This is not a problem if you purchase locally. The valve should regen based on water usage, not time. Noryl bypass. Most softeners are available with either Noryl or stainless bypass valves. Both are good valves, but the noryl tends to be more reliable when not used for long periods of time. Install the softener with a three-valve bypass. This will make it so much easier if you ever need to remove the softener for repairs or wish to take it with you when you move. Use full-port, quarter-turn valves. Because of the manganese in your water you will need to take some additional steps to ensure your softener stays in good working order. Softening resin has a high affinity for manganese and doesn't like to release it during regen. Even using a higher salt dosage, some of the manganese remains in the resin and will slowly foul it from the inside out. You have several options: The easiest option may be to simply use Iron-Remover salt. Alternatively, you can use Super Iron Out. You may choose to layer this in with your salt. If you choose this option, use 1/4 C per 40 lb bag of salt. Super...
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ribs1
Original Author
12 years ago
OK,
Just measured my pipes. The current softener is hooked up to 3/4" pipes that run a short length to a 1" pipe. The 1" pipe leaves the water softener room towards the water heater. The rest of the pipes going around the house are 3/4"
I am having trouble figuring out the SFR. We have 3 bathtubs, 3 bathroom sinks, 2 kitchen sinks, a dishwasher, washing machine and utility sink. I measured the flow at my bathtub. I filled a 1 gallon bucket in 12 seconds.
We also have 3 outside hose bibs but they are bypassed and not softened.
Hope this is enough information for now.
Thanks for your help so far.
User
12 years ago
When you filled the 1 gallon bucket in 12 seconds did you open BOTH hot and cold faucets at the tub?

Nitrates and bacteria results won't effect softener sizing only your family's health.

Will need manganese results though.
ribs1
Original Author
12 years ago
Hi Justalurker. I filled a 1 gallon bucket in 12 seconds with both hot and cold on at the same time at the tub. The tub has a mixing valve though, not separate hot and cold valves.

I am wondering what good it does to test the flow rate at one of my tubs especially since that tub is softened by a 25 year old softener that probably impedes the flow considerably. Is it a better test to use one of the hose bibs thats not connected to the softener? (just wondering, can't use the hose bibs now due to winter)

Also, I did not test for manganese this time, but I dug up my quote from Kinetico from a month ago and according to him he says no manganese.

Thanks
BTW, planning to buy the softener and have it installed by a local plumber. I have talked to too many local water professionals and they just do not seem to know a darned thing. Worse with the Big boys like Kinetico, a little better from the independents but prices are just too high from everybody and none of these guys seem to be able to give me good answers to my questions. They just want to sell. Half the guys wouldn't even test my water.
User
12 years ago
You're better off having your well water tested by an certified independent lab... they're not trying to sell you water treatment equipment.

Plumbers are OK to install although I've seen plumbers plumb softeners in backwards and feed resin into the plumbing. Don't let them touch the control valve setup.

If you're ordering online I suggest you assemble the softener yourself (if you're a DIYer). It's not hard and doesn't take long. you'll take more care than a plumber.

The plumber will intersect the softener loop and make sure he/she plumbs the inny and outy correctly. You have to have a drain and AC power proximate to the softener location. Also some arrangement for the safety overflow on the brine tank.

I recommend you have the plumber install a three ball valve bypass even though the softener will have it's own bypass. That way, if the softener's bypass requires service you'll still have (untreated) water to the house while waiting for repair or parts.

When the softener you need is determined have the plumber look at the connections available for the softener so he/she can pick the one he/she likes for that install.

Regarding SFR... how about checking at a hose bib off the pressure tank?
ribs1
Original Author
12 years ago
The water test results are from a local water treatment guy. His results are the same as what Kinetico measured about a month ago. However, I did send out a sample to the Michigan State testing lab for confirmation and for additional tests to confirm. I should have results in a few days.

I cannot use the hose bibs right now due to freezing weather. All of my outside hose bibs are shutoff for the year.

I am a DIYer and plan to assemble the softener myself, but I will have a plumber actually install the softener.

Can you make a preliminary recommendation based on my water test results so far?
Thanks
User
12 years ago
Don't have a valve at your pressure tank to test for SFR?

With the info you offered so far I'd say a Fleck 9100SXT twin resin tank softener would be ideal. With 3ppm iron that softener regenerates using SOFT water instead of iron laden hard water so resin life will be longer. Programmed to regen every 4 days and then switch to the other resin tank you'd have soft water 24/7 and never waste a calculated reserve. A routine regimen using Iron Out or the like is recommended.

When I've got all your numbers I can nail down the size.
ribs1
Original Author
12 years ago
OK,
Thanks for the recommendation. At least that gets me started so I know what I am in for budget wise.

I will go down in the softener room and see if there is a hose bib down there tonight.
As soon as I get the water test results back from the state I will post the numbers.
Thanks so much for your help so far.
ribs1
Original Author
12 years ago
OK,
I just got back from the dungeon. There is a hose bib down there? See, you are forcing me to learn something.

So, using the hose bib near the pressure tank I filled a 5 gallon bucket in 36 seconds.

Thanks
User
12 years ago
So that's at least 9gpm SFR and that's good.

Final numbers withstanding it looks like you're looking at less than $1k

I need to make sure the manganese won't effect the numbers and that you don't have nitrates or bacteria.

Also need to know the PH on the well water.
ribs1
Original Author
12 years ago
Justalurker,
Thanks very much for all your help.
I just went back to the county health department today to send another water sample to the state for manganese testing.
Should have all independent tests done in a few days. Will post back soon.
User
12 years ago
And the PH
ribs1
Original Author
12 years ago
Hey,
OK, I will get PH too.
ribs1
Original Author
12 years ago
Still waiting for manganese test to come back. State lab doesn't test ph. Local pool supply company does. Will take sample in and have ph tested tomorrow.
Thanks

Please help with water softener sizing

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