To be safe, I would stay with todays ingredients as opposed to something like flour, which was used for years, but if there is a safer and more reliable thickener for canning, it might be wise to move up to todays tested ingredients. Because flour can change density and affect other things, and even with vinegar, its still not going to remain thckened for very long. Modified food starch has many years of home and commercial use behind it. My mustard pickles were thickened with Clear Jel. They were my moms favorite. Just make sure you do not ad dteh same amount of Clear jel as it an thicken a lot more compared to flour, and the thickening happes much faster. Flour+lumps+stock=lumpy gravy with liquid seperation after refrigeration. Clear Jel+nothing+stock=a smooth gravy...

Lisa, yes, I do use that cereal in my bread recipes. I have some recipes that call for oatmeal or rolled oats and I'll sub that, or I might get a wild hair and just sub the cereal for some part of the whole grain flour. I use it in place of the oatmeal in this recipe too: Honey Granola Bread 3 1/2 cups all-purpose flour 2 packages active dry yeast 1 teaspoon salt 1 3/4 cups fat-free milk 10 tablespoons honey 1/3 cup butter 2 eggs 2 cups whole wheat flour 1 cup reduced-fat granola cereal without raisins 1 cup rye flour 1/2 cup cornmeal 1/2 cup quick-cooking oats 1/4 cup slivered almonds, toasted and chopped In a large mixing bowl, combine 2 cups all-purpose flour, yeast and salt. In a saucepan, heat the milk, honey and butter to 120 degrees F-130 degrees F. Add to dry ingredients; beat just until moistened. Add eggs; beat until smooth. Stir in whole wheat flour and enough remaining all-purpose flour to form a soft dough (dough will be sticky). Stir in the granola, rye flour, cornmeal, oats and almonds. Turn dough onto a floured surface; knead until smooth and elastic, about 6-8 minutes. Place in a greased bowl, turning once to grease top. Cover and let rise in a warm place until doubled, about 1 hour. Punch dough down. Turn onto a floured surface. Divide in half; cover and let rest for 10 minutes. Shape each portion into a ball. Place on a greased baking sheet; flatten into 5-in. circles. Cover and let rise in a warm place until doubled, about 30 minutes. Bake at 375 degrees F for 20 minutes; cover with oil. Bake 10 minutes longer or until bread sounds hollow when tapped. Remove to a wire racks. I do this in the bread machine, I don't bake it in there, I just let the machine do all the work on the dough cycle. I do check when I start making substitutions because many times the dough needs a bit more liquid so when I hear the knead cycle start I'll give it a couple of minutes then check the texture of the dough and add a bit more milk if I think it needs it. Sometimes I'll brush the loaves with milk before baking and sprinkle with some of the cereal mixture too, just to make it a little more interesting. Annie

hm....to tell the truth I have never checked the temp of my starter or my oven with/without the light or my bread dough or the starter as I was getting it going ! My house is 68 all winter and then in the Summer we keep the thermostat on 78. Whatever time of year it is all seems to do just fine. I have never made an exception for my bread dough other than to place it in the oven with the door propped open with an oven mitt. That is how it is today with the dough I am currently making. It has to rest at "room " temp for 3 hrs...with stretch and folds every 30 min for the first 2 hrs and then leave it alone for one hour. Then shape and let rise one hour at room temp then retard overnight and bake direct from fridge in 500 degree pre-heated pots tomorrow. I just checked my oven temp with the light on and it is 73. That is where I do my apple yeast water and my starter after I feed it and that is where my first and only , current , stater got going. One of the things they caution is not to over feed your starter...as in until it doubles don't feed again. I followed the method I linked 4 yrs ago and didn't have a problem. I know others on the Fresh Loaf have had to try about 3-4 times to get one going. I used rye flour from my local health food store and bottled water ( that is important when getting it started) and King Arthur white AP flour. It could be that is the problem with your first starter is over feeding. As to the second starter I wouldn't worry at all about "bad" stuff growing at this point. The tiny bubbles and concept of "bad" are not a problem at this point. Simply carry on and move it to a slightly cooler place and feed/discard and definitely stir well and give it air via a loose cover. It should be fine. As to the other one after 6 days if it has bubbles and has a fine odor I sure wouldn't discard it either. I would take out half and feed it and leave it where it is about 75 for 24 hrs and see what is what. As to apple yeast water just chop up 100g of apple and put it in the quart jar with 2/3 full filtered water...it does love the 80's so use your oven with light. Stir very well every couple hours all during the day for 3 days - 4 days. It is ready to rise bread. The apples will always float and the water will be VERY fizzy ! You can hear it ! It does need a lot of attn and warmth the first 3-4 days and then it is completely care free and can be in the fridge for weeks at a time and not used. Once you get your other starter going....and I do urge you to go to TFL and read some of the discussions on getting a starter going...I will tell you how to store it when not in use for lengths of time...when I am gone on a bicycle tour I leave mine unattended in the fridge for months. Keep us posted. c http://www.thefreshloaf.com/search/node/debra%20wink%20starting%20a%20sour%20dough%20starter read the first two articles by Debra Wink...linked above and then the link below...you will know more than I do when done :) Debra's way always works !! c Here is a link that might be useful: TFL...link to a lot of discussions

Robin, I got my stone at Kitchen Collection at an outlet mall. I checked but they are not showing it online. I know I paid $3.99 for it. Amazon has a toaster oven stone but it is much more expensive - if you have a Kitchen Collection near you, call them and see if they have it, if not, I'd go with an unglazed quarry tile. The quarry tile will work fine, you just won't have as much area to work with but it will be large enough for a couple of rolls or a small loaf. I hate heating my large oven for just a small bit of any food. Sharon, I have combined the techniques of the ABin5 and the NY Times no knead recipe. When I bake an ABin5 loaf, I preheat a covered 2 or 2 1/2 quart cast iron oval roaster for at least half an hour. Let the dough do it's rise after shaping on a piece of parchment (or not, it's just easier to get in the pan with the paper) and lift it with the paper into the heated pan and cover. The dough does not stick if you bake it in a preheated pan without parchment, it's just easier to handle on the paper. No water or ice is needed in the oven, the hot covered pan keeps in the steam that is released from the dough. When the loaf is half baked, take the cover off. The pan contains the sideways spread of the dough and you get a much higher loaf. You get a nice crackled crisp crust this way too. Don't put a preheated cast iron pan on a stone or you will probably be cleaning up pieces of your baking stone - I know! Lee