Steaming and roasting might be okay, but the idea of the glaze does not appeal to me at all. Not what I want my turkey to taste like.

~Ann

I don't understand why people want to "glaze" everything, except perhaps donuts. Meat should be served as meat. Ham doesn't need the "honey glaze", turkey needs nothing, meatloaf, well, we've been through that temper tantrum before. Why not serve things so you taste the meat, potatoes, vegetables, etc? I don't understand it.

I feel the exact same way Ken.

~Ann

Cynic, I agree. I tend to like foods plain, rather than glazed, sauced, marinated, etc.

I don't understand it either, and I really like Jacques Pepin, but he's lost me on this one. I like turkey roasted. I don't want it glazed or sauced, just stuffed and roasted, thanks, and if it's a fresh farm raised turkey, a nice salty brine bath for a few hours gives it the seasoning it needs.

Annie

I'm a little surprised to read these reactions. I could be wrong, but I'm not picturing a little cider and vinegar turning into some thick, syrupy, show-stealing coating. Surely a lot less "offensive" than wine and mushrooms smothering chicken marsala, pepper and cream sauce on a steak au poivre, rubs and/or bbq sauce on ribs or pulled pork, etc. That said, I think the big headline here is the method.

I also prefer food without the glaze - I thought I was alone there! Ham does not need honey, and turkey especially does not need a glaze. The sauce, such as cranberry, should be on the side, and I do not want it touching my turkey!

Lars

FOAS, I've often said that good beef doesn't need any help, so you can keep that sauce for the steak especially. Elery uses a rub when he's smoking pork, but when I pull it I eat it plain and have BBQ sauce on the side for those who want it. Makayla likes it plain too, she won't even dip french fries in catsup!

I don't want wine in anything, of course, and I never put lemon or tartar sauce on fish. I do like BBQ sauce on ribs, but that's kind of unusual, mostly I prefer the flavor of the food itself, although I do like salt and pepper on many/most things.

I am surprised at the number of people who say they'd prefer the turkey plain, though, I thought it was just one of my weirdnesses....

Annie

"I'm a little surprised to read these reactions. I could be wrong, ----"

You are not wrong, FOAS, you nailed it.

The article says, "------ Either way, steaming represents the heart of the process ---". It is all about the method of steaming of the turkey.

Steaming gently is another way of applying the principle of cooking meat using low heat. If you cook meat at 500F, 400F etc, you simply cannot avoid overcooking a lot of the meat to reach 160F interior safe temperature.

Steam, actually is lower in temperature than 212F boiling water. Water boils and vaporizes at 212F. Moisture in air is invisible. When you can see steam, that means moisture has condensed and has become water droplets, and is lower than 212F. That's why you can see steam when you breathe in the winter cold air. The chance of overcooking is much less than baking at 500F.

BTW, it is not that steam can moisturize the meat, juicy meat is a result of low temperature cooking.

dcarch

I will back off slightly to say yes, I like an occasional dash of BBQ sauce on things. Real BBQ sauce, not coleslaw dressing or mustard! Even for ribs these days, although I do them differently at times, I usually dry rub them and eat them that way, often passing on sauce. A little BBQ sauce on poultry occasionally but when I want to enjoy the meat, I like to get the meat first. For that matter, same with most anything else. Mashed potatoes don't need cheese, garlic, sour cream, and the rest in it to be good. For that matter, with good bread at a meal, I often won't butter it and never margarine it!

"BTW, it is not that steam can moisturize the meat, juicy meat is a result of low temperature cooking."
I have to add one thing and then I'll agree. Juicy meat is a result of not overcooking and low temperature cooking can aid this. If you braise or boil things too long, you'll cook the moisture right out of it. I've learned that the hard way! LOL

And for those who inject with things (especially after cooking), well, some aren't horrible, but why not leave that as an optional sauce?

I enjoy properly cooked turkey. Cooked in a variety of methods. I'm even getting to like dark meat more. It's a good time of year for my taste buds!

I just finished a 28 lb turkey yesterday. The monster size is a result of sending DH to pick it up. He loves turkey! I brined the turkey for just over a day, then smoked it for about 3 hours, and finished it by roasting it in the oven. I took it out when internal temp was 140F which is the most I can stand. I hate food that's cooked to death.

This turkey is just for us, so I do it just as I do our chickens - with a spicy rub, and smoked. I learned the hard way that Thanksgiving turkey has to be traditional, so I'll roast a turkey next week, but we prefer the turkey done like BBQ. Different strokes. The smoked turkey has much more flavor than roasted, but you have to like BBQ and not expect the usual.

I thought the steamed and glazed turkey would be nicely moist, a big improvement over most turkey dinners I've eaten where the turkey has all the appeal of sawdust.

Cheryl

After viewing the links provided I can't imagine that "glaze" would amount to much. When I think of a glaze I think of some sugary ingredient that makes the glaze stick. As far as the steaming/roasting method goes - I think it sounds like it is worth a try. I will have to say that Jacques must know what he is doing or he has fooled a lot of people and made a lot of money doing it.

I still don't like the idea of deep frying a turkey. I've tried a number of them made by different people and I just don't think there is anything to rave about. I'll try any cooking method once. Who knows? I might like it enough to switch to it. But I won't be frying a turkey - ever. And to those of you that do fry turkeys - check with your insurance company first. All too many companies do not provide coverage if a turkey fryer causes your house to burn down.

Like many of you - I make excellent gravy and sauces. However I feel that 3-4 Tbsp. of a quality gravy drizzled over my mashed potatoes, turkey & stuffing will suffice. And a similar scant amount as well on Marsala, Piccata, etc. Good quality food/ingredients do not need to be drowned to make them better in my opinion. I will have to agree with Annie (steak sauce not needed for quality beef) and with FOAS with regard to his comment regarding Marsala and other sauced dishes.

Just my opinion - a quality product cooked properly does not need much embellishment in the way of sauce or condiments.

I love a deep fried turkey! Moist, not greasy, tender and all that!!
As for danger? I remember hearing about people worrying about the dangers of gasoline motor cars.
Take normal precautions and get on with the cooking.

Also am a fan of simple "food tasting food"....but I sure like gravy on my mashed potatoes....and stuffing....and turkey.And cranberry Jezebel....and curried turkey leftovers are fabulous....and I like turkey in adobo....and mole...and in marinara over pasta.

Sauces cooked properly only add to the total experience....
Just my humble opinion.

Ha-ha-ha lindac. You made someone's day! I had a bet going with someone that it would take less than an hour for you to jump in! They won the bet as they guessed 30 minutes or less.

Gasoline motor cars came along at least 50 years before I was born and I am certain you are right about that. And people used to think smoking cigarettes was safe and drinking alcohol in excess was really cool. Guess we know better now.

I TOO love properly cooked sauces and I agree they do add to the total experience. But anytime I have to toss a mini life preserver to the chicken cutlet on my plate - I am in the camp that too much sauce has been applied.

And take a look around you. Most people are 40 to 50 pounds heavier than they were 25 years ago. More is not better. And less tastes just as good!

Teresa

This is an interesting forum people. It's a cooking forum but there's a kind of "correct" way to do things. I guess it's the background of most people here, but not using wine for example, would be really strange for me. We have wine every day and it's a great thing for deglazing your pan. Being in the wine business we tend to have a lot of open stuff anyway, but even if not, it's an essential part of cooking. I couldn't imagine NOT using it.

Same with various glazes and sauces. A great piece of meat doesn't need a lot of adornment, but why is salt OK and nothing else?

Yet at the same time, people are willing to use boxed mixes and packaged products that are generally anathema to good cooking.

Here's an example of a nice way to prepare beef. It's not wrong or right as compared to simply grilling the meat with a bit of salt on it, but it's a nice alternative. Life is too short to have the same thing all the time.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bulgogi

Roseinny...I so agree!
I think everyone should know what the food tastes like unembellished and then run with it. I guess wine is the chicken broth in my kitchen...not really, I don't use a quart as a basis for soup....but I do slosh, deglaze, dribble and add a glub here and there.

There is a whole branch of the culinary arts devoted to sauces. A good sauce can make the ordinary, good and the good memorable. Sauces are what separate a pan fried chicken breast from a picatta or a marsala or a parmagania. A little sauce turns canned green beans into GREEN BEAN CASSEROLE....
The difference between green beans in a mushroom cream sauce with crisp onions and THAT casserole is the sauce.

The bulgogi sounds good to me....wishing I wasn't looking at a hot grill and a ground beef patty...catsup? BBQ? or Heinz 57?

roses, I've often said that taste is subjective, it's not objective. I work hard to raise my own grassfed beef because I like it and because the methods generally used to produce commercial beef offends me. I am apathetic about cheese although I dislike bleu or blue, whichever you wish to call it. I also don't care for wine but I believe I am in the minority, many/most posters here use it freely and regularly.

I did have one of our local winemakers tell me that dry red wine is an "acquired taste", but couldn't tell me why I should bother to acquire it. I also don't like beer or most liquors so I don't have a couple of tablespoons of vodka for the pie crust or beer for the chili.

Many of us have posted here for a decade or more, so you'll get a lot of opinions and personal preferences. It's not usually considered a criticism, but part of the general conversation regarding all the ways a person could cook a turkey or whatever.

There is some contention, sometimes, as some posters do consider any disagreement as personal criticism, or insist that there is only one way to do anything, and that's their way.

For the record, however, I don't use boxes, mixes or canned soup of any kind. I grow my own organic vegetables and grass fed beef, as well as pastured chicken and I have hens to lay eggs for me. I bake all my own bread, although I do like butter on it. I like the quality and the flavor of the foods I produce and don't want them covered up with a lot of stronger flavors.

So, you will note that I never said that you couldn't or shouldn't or wouldn't cover your beef with whatever you personally prefer, I only said that I wouldn't.

Welcome to the Cooking Forum, where threads lead off into all kinds of directions, that's what makes it fun!

Annie

annie if you're raising your own grass fed beef I'm quite envious. In Argentina we would get it and it would be wonderful with just a bit of salt and pepper - they don't do much to dress things up down there.

No personal criticism intended by me for sure, and there's certainly no reason anyone needs to explore, but for those who like to do so, it's hard to understand why people don't. It would be very strange for me to make Thanksgiving dinner the same way all the time, although I recognize that some people think that's the way to go.

Even with the grass-fed beef, which I'm certain is quite delicious on its own, after a while, I'd be looking for something else to do with it, just because, well, why not? Otherwise you miss out on a lot. For example, I had an open bottle of a nice Garnacha a couple days ago. So I braised some short ribs in that, put that all into a pumpkin and baked it until the pumpkin was done, and that was dinner. There were lots of seasonings and I'd have no idea how to make that w/out the seasonings and the wine. How would we braise the meat?

I know some of the posters because I used to check in once in a while in the very late 1990s, although never really posted much. After grad school I'd opened a French pastry shop - long since sold, but I remember reading a post on here where someone was adding wax to chocolate and someone else suggested shortening. I found both abominable but then remembered how angry my partner was when I once suggested that we save some money by using part margarine in our croissants, something he found abominable. So I figured we all have our comfort zones and rather than be contentious, I'd just not say much.

However, if and when you come to NYC, give a shout and I promise that we'll assuredly pour you some wine that you'll like. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever one must acquire a taste for it, but it sure does make life more pleasant! Cheers and happy Thanksgiving.

LOL, roses, I doubt that you'll find one I like, as everyone I know and every winery I've gone to tries and cannot find one. Actually, my Mother would be quite upset if anyone ever taught me to like dry red wine, because then she'd have to share the bottle that we get for her on holidays, LOL. Plus, she and my husband would have to look for a new designated driver, so he wouldn't be happy either.

Actually, I don't horribly dislike some of the sweet white stuff, and the Chateau Chantal Ice Wine from Traverse City was almost good, although so sweet even I couldn't drink more than a small glass.

As for beef, I do various things with it, but seldom "sauce" it. I'll be making some Cornish Pasties with it, a mix of minced beef, rutabaga, onion, salt and pepper, baked in crust. No gravy, though, or sauce or broth, just beef and vegetables. Since I don't really like well done beef, that curtails my cooking of it. Beef stew, pot roast, Elery's beloved braciole, for me they are all kind of "meh". I'll eat them, they're OK, but it's nothing I love.

Even my occasional burger is cooked rare and I've been known to eat steak raw, and I know that's a luxury. Since my beef is born on my property and every day of its life is spent there and every mouthful of food it eats is grown there, I'm comfortable doing that. Others may not be.

For the record I also find margarine to abominable in nearly anything. I like butter, probably too well, although upon thought I do have a very good molasses cookie recipe that calls for shortening and it's not the same when I sub all butter, so perhaps margarine has its uses.

I just don't know what that use would be......(grin)

Annie

Hello and welcome from another New Yorker!

When were you in Argintina? What part?

dcarch

I totally agree on the low and slow method. I've waxed poetic about how a hot then slow oven turns out the perfect turkey, so I'll restrain myself this year :-)

I just saw yesterday on PBS, American Test Kitchen doing their "Perfect Turkey".

Like all the other cooking shows, I don't understand the terminologies they use.

Why do they call meat that is obviously tough and dry "tender" and "Juicy"? Is there a way to cook meat to 212F and have the meat remain tender and Juicy?

Why do they call the skin "crispy" when the skin is obviously only browned and not crispy? A Peking duck has crispy skin, and a deep fried turkey or chicken has crispy skin. I have not seen other ways of making truly crispy skin.

dcarch

We get it.

FOAS,

Get what?

I think the correct way is the way that works for you.
I've experimented a lot over the years. And continue to do so. But I also know what I like and what I don't, so I don't see any point in cooking something using ingredients that I do not like.

There are a few things that I have never cared for, but have over the years developed a taste for. Like clams. At one time I hate them. Now I love them. I follow Rene's seven year rule.

When it comes to a simple grilled steak, I want it to taste like beef. A good steak doesn't need to be marinated or tenderized. A rub of fresh garlic, salt and black pepper is my preference. Sometimes a little fresh rosemary. I cook with wine, but I do not want a steak marinated in wine and soy sauce. But that is my "taste". Others are entitled to their own.

There is nothing better than a traditional turkey or chicken dinner. Traditional for one though isn't the same for another. Cooking methods also vary. You can turn out a perfectly cooked turkey with different roasting methods. I know, because I have done them all. Some prefer a long slow roast, others a high heat quick roast, and some a combination of high and low heat. Hey what ever works for you.

I don't know anyone that thinks a turkey cooked to an internal temperature of 212�F would be tender and juicy. Well, maybe my mother, but she over cooked everything.

~Ann

"----I don't know anyone that thinks a turkey cooked to an internal temperature of 212F would be tender and juicy. ---"

American Test Kitchen is a good program, most of the time. I have learned things from that show. However, there are many times I have major problems with that show.

This particular show for instance. To me, one of the important factors in the making of a turkey correctly is to know the starting temperature; is the turkey at room temperature or just thawed? That was not discussed.

The method they showed was for the turkey to be in a 325F oven for over two hours then back to the oven at 450F for another 45 minutes. I cannot imagine that a good part of the turkey was not cooked at around 212F. Tender? Juicy "perfect" turkey? Give me a break!

In the middle of the program, they also were reviewing kitchen knives. I am shocked. Almost all the information they gave were wrong. Don't they know that there is Googling? If they don't have the knowledge themselves? Don't they have a staff to do basic research?

"Test" Kitchen?

dcarch

dcarch, there are many people who think they are always right, but few who actually are. (grin) That includes ATK.

I find that their methods work for me sometimes, sometimes not. I often just quit because I become so annoyed with 157 steps of minutely precise instructions that I finally just throw the dish together and get it over with. Have I mentioned that I'm impatient?

Knives are, I think, very personal. Many knives that others sing the praises of are very clumsy in my small hands, or just don't feel right. It would be very difficult to say that a single knife is good for everyone.

It's their taste tests that I disagree with, and I disagree often. It's the "taste is subjective, not objective" thing, I think. That's why the studio audience often disagrees with the test panel who disagree with Chrsitopher Kimball and I disagree with all of them.

I still enjoy the show and watch it regularly and have some of the recipes which come out well for me, including their butterflied turkey which cooks in about two hours and really is moist and juicy. I peel off the crisp skin, though, can't stand the stuff.

So I guess nothing is right for everyone, whether it's turkey or knives or wine. That's what makes life interesting.

I gotta tell you, though, you can Google for the rest of eternity, but it's not always right. Anyone can put anything they want on the internet and they do. From canning recipes and techniques that make me cringe to conspiracy theories about the US Postal Service being behind 9/11 to legal advice on how to avoid paying income tax, it's all available via Google. It's not accurate, but it's available.

Annie

Annie, I am totally in agreement with you. There are matters of personal taste, different working habits, opinions about many things when it comes to cooking and food related issues.

What I cannot tolerate is a show who calls itself "Test Kitchen" to give out technically incorrect information when the correct information is common and easily available.

For instance, in that video about knives, the information about knife sharpening angles they gave were all wrong. Those are very basic knife information, and you don't need to be a top expert to know, anyone who is slight bit interested in knives will know what they are.

The Cheap $25.00 knife they said is good because it is sharp is rediculous. Any knife you buy will be sharp the first day. What makes a good knife is how long it will hold the edge sharp. Also not all Japanese knives are single bevel.

I can go on.

dcarch

dcarch, the real problem I have with ATK is that they take money from sponsors and advertisements, so I tend to take their opinions about equipment and food stuffs with a grain of salt anyway.

Annie

dcarch - brought in some wine from Argentina. Spent time in BA and out west in Mendoza. Pastry shop was in Chicago back in the 80s after grad school. Way before the wine biz although we still had wine every night back then. Still do actually, so I guess not much has changed in that respect other than the fact that less of it is French. BTW - you're a New Yorker? Where?

I was in BA when the country was falling apart. 5 presidents in a row in a few months. Banks were closing. I traveled to other countries afterwards and no other country was willing to take Argintina money.

Oh yes, I had the best beef when I was there. Highlight of the trip was visiting La Casa Rosada (Pink House) and visualizing Madonna singing "Don't Cry For Me Argintina" from the balcony.

I am in Brooklyn.

dcarch

Annie,...there are 300 MILLION people here in the
United States of America, (some say 350 million,
but who's counting).

About 6 of those people have the luxuries that
you have, (and I wish I was one of those 6).

Bottom line, we should remember our friends that
don't have a farm, and give them advice accordingly.

Please don't get mad at me.

Actually, lbpod, nearly everyone I know has the luxuries I have, which we earn through very hard work. That's more like 10 people, maybe 11. (grin)

So, although I've been here for 10 or 11 years I no longer get to participate in any discussions unless they include grassfed beef, organic vegetables, pastured poultry?

I guess I'll stop posting altogether then....

Annie

Well goodness - day after Thanksgiving and people have indigestion?

Personally, I sure as hell wish I had a farm with cows and such. I also wish I had someone else to take care of it so I could just act like lord of the manor. But it's relentlessly hard - my relatives in Europe would be up at the crack of dawn to let the sheep out, milk the cows, feed the pigs, etc. I just stopped in to eat those animals!

I think in a cooking forum one should give whatever advice one has - people can decide whether or not to take it. I'm often amazed at just how badly some people cook, but if they're happy with their dinners and don't make me eat them, (or in some cases even hear about them) it's OK.

I'm hoping everyone's Thanksgiving went well. Ours was fine except that the stuffing/dressing was too dry. Last minute I forgot that I was going to try some eggs this year and in fact, I forgot to add some stock as well, so although it was good, it sure needed a lot of gravy.

dcarch - what part of Brooklyn? It would be hilarious if you live across the street.

Rose, you could mix your dressing with mine. Mine was a bit "gloppy" for my taste but since it all got eaten, I guess it must have been OK.

Gravy makes it all better anyway. (grin)

Annie

Thanksgiving is the only day we eat turkey. The rest of the time, give me a roast capon or a duck prepared almost any way at all. DH and I are just not turkey lovers. My niece makes a very fine brined and roasted turkey, but once a year is enough for us.

We're sauce and gravy people. Stews, braises, casseroles - we love them. I do a fair amount of cooking and a lot of dining out, and we hold that a fine sauce is a work of art. Even though we eat a lot of steaks and roasts, a great sauce is always to be admired. There are too many bad ones around to not acknowledge when something is done correctly.

One of our favorite restaurants does a great poached monkfish. This is the fish known as "the poor man's lobster" for both its taste and texture. It's a great little fish, with wonderful flavor. But nap it with Amoricaine sauce, and it rises to a whole 'nother level. This is a Bretonnese classic, and for good reason.

Red wine and marrow Bordelaise on a rib-eye? Absolutely! Black truffle cream sauce on a filet? Yum! Mop that goodness up with a well made starch - roasted fingerling potatoes, barley risotto, fresh pasta, freshly baked bread rolls.

Gravy and sauce was the way to extend meat to feed a lot of people. Most of the world still loves sauced dishes as treasured childhood memories. Like soup, they are warmth and comfort, soothing and homey.

Chicken strips that are velveted and steamed with lop cheong sausage (classic Chinese technique) are stunningly tender, almost as soft as sous vide but we like the flavor and texture better. Perfect with a roasted garlic-oyster sauce gravy over lots of rice! Far better than stir-frying or roasting. As Charles Phan of The Slanted Door restaurant in SF points out in today's WSJournal, steaming is considered the ultimate test of a professional chef in Asia.

Getting back to the NY Times' and Pepin's suggestions for steaming, one of the greatest dishes in Chinese cuisine is steamed sliced chicken breast with thin slices of Hunan ham. My mother introduced me to this dish (she took classes from one of the leading Chinese restaurateurs in San Francisco) and it still ranks with DH and me as one of the three finest poultry dishes we've had in our 45 yrs of dining.

A glaze should always be light. Heavy-handedness is the mark of a bad cook. Peking Duck would not be the same without the glaze applied, for example.

Annie - more power to you with your grassfed beef, organic veg and pastured poultry! I'm a firm believer in well raised animals and chemical-free produce. I don't raise much of it myself, but I work hard to be able to buy it from farmers with the same principles.

Cheryl

Thank you, Cheryl, both for the kind thoughts and for supporting your local small farms and farmers. Even if you don't have space or knowledge or interest in producing food yourself, it's still available to many through the local farmer's markets and small farms, you just have to find them.

I know not all posters use the same ingredients or type of food. Not everyone has dcarch's sous vide cooker, in fact I don't know anyone who does, but he still shows photos of it and talks about what he cooked in it. Some of us are vegetarians or vegans or lactose intolerant or celiac, but we all gather around this big "table" and talk, mostly like friends, sharing our virtual meals and how we cooked them, offering advice and differences of opinions and suggestions. I've changed many of my ways of cooking and added small "improvements" to recipes and techniques because of discussions with people who did things a bit (or a lot) differently than I do/did.

Annie

Cheryl, you should see pictures of Annie's horses. Happy, happy guys! Big, maybe not fat, but ... just the way horses should be. They know they are loved.