No, not even in California.

Kitchen designers don't change kitchen plans on you without your knowledge all the time. If this happened to you, you probably ought to stand your ground and demand what you signed off on, not what your KD accidentally ordered and is trying to pretend is OK.

Eek.

I've never heard of this... I think Fori's right...your KD messed up and is trying to convince you to take it anyway. AND, wouldn't a "smaller footprint" cost less? So, where's the refund????

I'd ask WHY? who is SHE planning to live in YOUR h*ouse who needs a wheelchair?

and I'd tell her 'no KD of mine tells people that, let alone me'. I think she'd be fired.

ask for the CODE that requires it. lol!

talk about scraping the bottom to cover her butt!

unless you told her you wanted it 'wheelchair ready'...

The KD sounds like an unethical coward who won't admit her
mistakes and blaming it on valid public access laws for
the disabled.
This is truly mean. Mean to you and mean to those who have
to be in a wheelchair. For anyone disabled would not
appreciate being used as an excuse for a KDs mistake.

I apologize if I sound harsh but my sister was in a horrfic
car accident years ago. She was wheelchair bound for
1 year while she recovered. The pain she endured and the
fears that she might never walk again scared all around
her. So maybe I am a bit annoyed that the KD might blame
a victim for a paper mistake. Forgive me.

Ditto to what Boxerpups and others have said -

As far as I am aware - ADA (the Americans with Disabilities Act) that was enacted
in 1990 is applicable to public buildings. We I do commercial applications -
bathroons in office buildings, etc - I HAVE to be aware of ADA specs in
relationship to the height and depth of countertops so they are accessible
to folks that ARE in wheelchairs. This is also true when it comes to
door openings and clearance inside a space where someone in a wheelchair
has to have enough clearance to move around, rotate, turn, etc.

ADA does NOT apply to private residences (as far as I know) - You ought
to "have a nice... quiet....... "chat"... with your KD.... then FIRE HER!! IMHO HA!

hth

kevin

Here is a link that might be useful: Americans With Disablities Act - Government Web Site

36" halls and traffic aisles are fairly common building code standards. (A 60" x 60" space is needed for a wheelchair turnaround, but I don't see them arguing that they need that in your kitchen by code too!) Building code issues are usually discussed with the client in the planning stage if things look to be on the tight side (small aisles, inadequate venting, too near a window with a door to be regular glass, etc) A design is NEVER altered after the client approves without the client signing off on the changes. If a design is against code and won't pass local inspections, then it should never have made it into the design in the first place. You don't just change things after the fact---especially blaming local building codes!

I'm joining the get-a-lawyer crowd. I am so sad to see what happened to you.

Ugh your kitchen remodel turned into such a nightmare. So so so sorry for you!

If the footprint of these cabinets was done as planned, the aisle would be 57 inches wide. The existing door jamb entering the back porch is 32 inches. No mention was ever made of changing that.

If, for some reason, I ever were in a wheelchair, my stacked washer and dryer wouldn't be convenient for me anyways. If wheelchair access was an issue, then we'd have to have changed the doors and jambs, changed the layout of the washer and dryer, changed the powder room door, and more.

Plumeriavine-

With ALL of the CRAP you have been going through over the last month or so..
(I have been watching the posts)
It sounds to ME - like you are WAY OVER DUE for a some JUSTICE your project!!!!

It ALSO sounds to me like your KD - is trying to do two things at once here
looks to me like your KD is all about "positioning":

She's TRYING to "position" herself in a CYA to cover for HER Screw up -
While maneurvering YOU into the "Missionary Position" to cover HER MISTAKE....

Out HERE in Arizona - we usually take the advice of TK:
I'd "saddle up my 'boys and draw a hard line"

Get some JUSTICE for yourself on this project !!!

FIGHT BACK.....

hth

kevin

not only is she using the disabled as an excuse but she is also assuming you are stupid. definitely play the lawyer card. although she'd have to be really stupid if it actually went that far.

when you say you've been told, "kitchen designers do this all the time" who said that? the KD, right? good luck and let us know what happens. you shouldn't have to pay for the KDs mistake.

Been a KD since 1990....I have never said that to a client.

I saw you were asking about other cabinet lines on another post....are you ripping out your Wood-Mode kitchen and starting over?

Kompy

I wouldn't install the cabinets. I wouldn't accept the BS. Never, even for a big discount. You plan a kitchen to work the way it should. Making changes like that means you compromise on the flow and it's just not worth it.

Unless your state law says otherwise, the ADA specifically exempts private residences unless used for business purposes and then only the public part of the home is required to comply. So unless you are planning to open a laundromat in your home you do not need a turning radius inside your laundry room. If the turning radius is required, it does not apply to the entire room. In retrofitting an existing building, you can allow for parallel access inside a laundry room if there is a turning radius nearby.

I think this whole kitchen and pantry project can best be summed up, "You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time."

It is nice to have a place to come, GW, to double check reality and maintain a modicum of sanity.

I am hopeful that the page will soon turn in this saga.

So, are you ripping out your kitchen totally and starting over as Kompy asked? I haven't seen you answer in any detail how you are handling any of these issues you've been posting about. How did you not notice any of these "over the top" mistakes? Do you have anyone else that lives with you (DH, DO, ??)that also didn't notice what was going on? No offense, but I am finding it hard to believe a lot of this.

Barb

Bbtondo, often non-TKOers either believe whatever their KD says or are oblivious to the "mistakes". Believe me, my DH didn't notice anywhere near the things I did! After I'd point them out, he'd notice, but not before.

Most people remodeling go to a KD and basically say, "Here's my kitchen, make it nice" with a subtext of, "and don't bother me with details".

Once someone finds GW Kitchens, though, that usually changes (if they aren't scared off by all the details we get into!)

One way or another, this kitchen is not staying like it is.

I am guilty of being duped by these people until a certain date at a certain time when all the pieces of all the lies came rushing together and I realized that I had been, according to my understanding, deceived.

Then, I started unraveling the depth of the problem.

I generally believe in the good in people and I was bending and bending and bending when things weren't right.

Hindsight is 20/20. Perhaps someone else would have caught on faster to the shenanigans, but I was trusting and naive.

Naturally, I've gone through stages of grief and denial and anger and sadness.

This matter is not over. I truly hope other people can learn something from my ordeal.

Buehl:

Yes, I totally agree with what you are saying. I realize that a lot of people leave all the details to a KD or contractor. Nothing wrong with that at all!

But, now a rat? plumeriavine: What makes you say the "dirt" under the sink is from a rat? Do you have rats where you live? I wouldn't think that someone would put expensive Woodmode cabinets in a home where you would find rats in the area. Not only that, but the contractors took the time to put "holes" in your home so the rats would come in?

I'm still having a hard time believing a lot of this. Seems like a lot of "holes" in the story to me.

Barb

And again, why won't you answer a simple question whether or not you are ripping out your cabinets?

You are right, there are several good reasons to post these issues. You get help and support that you need. There's expert advice on dealing with contractors from many viewpoints. Then you help others by telling your story.

bbtondo,

I lived in an $800K house in the Garden District of New Orleans and I had rats in my backyard - and even in my kitchen once. Your comment regarding plumeria's neighborhood is highly insulting and clearly you've never been the victim of contractor fraud and the resulting damage to your property and your sanity. And clearly you don't realize how easily rats can get into a house (if plumeria has dogs, the food is major attraction to rats - they never ate our human food at all). Rats only need small holes and plumeria has major ones from what looks like a poorly installed tankless water heater.

Also, It took my husband and I nearly six months to be able to move forward on our new restoration project due to the documentation we had to do and then because NO ONE wanted to touch the project because of lawsuits, insurance claims, and general danger associated with the damages done by the original contractor's unlicensed subs.

I've questioned why Plumeria won't call out her installer by name, but you are just downright insulting in your comments.

If Plumeriavine is planning legal proceedings against her installer, then it isn't a good idea to start talking about them by name on the internet...it could come back to bite her. So, I would not expect to see anything that identifies the installer quite yet.

Rats? I live a block from the ocean, just south of Daytona Beach. Our neighborhood is 8-10 years old and very well maintained. Across the street, our neighbors back yards face an older 3 story condo and that condo's industrial trash bins are on the edge of their parking lot. Neighbors across the street from me can't have bird feeders because of rats from the trash bins. They have to keep their doors shut because the rats will eat through their pool screens and come into their homes if the doors to the pool aren't closed. Rats are not limited to "substandard areas"!

The pictures I have seen speak for themselves, and I agree, now is not the time to identify the installing company if there is going to be legal action. I also don't think now is the time to be able to answer a question about whether the entire kitchen is going to be removed or not...that decision could be based upon a legal outcome. Satisfying someone's curiousity is not a good reason to spill the beans.

In terms of rodents, I know one woman who was bit by a rat while she slept, because a rat got into the house during road work, a client who was bit by a squirrel who got into her house through a vent pipe, and someone who had a child die because he found a dead rabid bat in their fireplace apparently. None of these incidents happened to impoverished people in susbstandard housing.

Where there are people, there are rats. They only need something like a half-inch sized opening to get into your home, so it's not as if plumeria's installers "took the time" to punch gaping holes with a sledgehammer around her house like Barb suggests. Any poorly done exterior work could leave access to rodents or bugs.

I don't think there is any doubt--from what she has shared on this forum--that Plumeria got fleeced. Big time. She trusted her designers and installers, hoped for the best, and didn't want to be confrontational, and she got screwed. It happens with kitchens, it happens when Building a house, with buying cars, in relationships... it happens all the time. And it sucks! But to suggest that it's somehow her fault for not noticing all the unauthorized design changes and poor workmanship until the end is unfair. So is suggesting that her story is suspicious (??).

Plumeria, I do hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction and that the designers and installers are held in some way accountable.

Plumeria, I can only say that, for me at least, this offensive wheelchair stunt would be the very last straw. I would be interviewing lawyers. There are steps you will have to take to bring a case against these dishonest people, and I urge you to seek the best legal advice you can get. Please don't wait, there may be time periods running that you don't even realize (but THEY do!)

Good luck to you in the decisions you face. The rats are not your fault, so IMHO just brush that one aside, not worth the effort in the face of the other issues to deal with.

One of my kids is reading a book, "The Tale of Despereaux." It is all about the world of mice, and rats, and a Princess. The rats love the darkness. They hate the light. This "Tale of Despereaux" is very long and has many chapters. The names of the rats really don't matter to the story.

Anyways, I am thankful for everyone who helps me turn on the lights.

The consensus opinion on this thread, is, as I understand, turning radius for a wheelchair is not a usual and customary design must for the typical home remodel job.

I didn't mean to suggest Plumeria should reveal her installer now, just that I had once questioned it.

plumeria - Exactly, that is such a nice way to deal with this situation. We don't need to know all the details. Just need to give us enough to help out when you ask.

"The consensus opinion on this thread, is, as I understand, turning radius for a wheelchair is not a usual and customary design must for the typical home remodel job."

absolutely not!!! if a handicapped person is building or remodeling they'll instruct the builder/ contractors as to what they need. my sister / BIL did that for their n ew home in case my sister is ever confined to a wheelchair or a walker. they had to be specific on what they wanted - wider hallway, wider doorway etc - all for the future if needed. they didn't want to have to redo anything. She is disabled as am I. I'm planning on some adjustments to my new place in areas I'll be redoing. But they are things I'll specify.

I admire that you are making these considerations in your own plans, desertsteph. Wheelchair access, although an admirable idea when space and funds and desire permits, was never one of my specifications. This was an excuse to not provide me with what I had specified. Just as you want to make your specifications and have them honored, I wanted my specifications to be honored.

The consensus opinion on this thread, is, as I understand, turning radius for a wheelchair is not a usual and customary design must for the typical home remodel job.

Check the doorways in your house. if there's even one under 36" wide, you have your answer as to whether or not ADA codes apply to houses in your area. (and I'd be willing to bet most of them are 30") This KD's out of her gourd.

Bill,

Yes. The doorway sizes are original to the house and are certainly much under 36 inches, and even one in the room in question is less than 30 inches!!

Building inspectors never said a word about door jambs or wheelchair access to us, but will make sure there isn't anything new and local. If so, cabinets around doorways will be have to be ripped out to make the door jambs bigger.

What does your KD say is the "real" reason for these bizarre comments. It must have been a royal screw-up. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when they realized it and scrambled to find an excuse. And what an excuse it is.

You need to hold their feet to the fire on this and get them to make your kitchen the way it's supposed to be.

Good luck

The KD cannot point to ADA as an excuse for those changes. They must point you to a local or state law that removes the private residence exemption. Don't let them just point to the turning radius section of the code because the exemptions are in different section.

No state law "removes" anything from the ADA--it's a federal law.

No state code requires new or remodeled two-story private residences to have elevators, do they? Those are required by ADA!

A call to the local department of inspectional services will confirm this, once they stop laughing.

The good news is, this statement about the ADA may have clearly crossed the line from civil to criminal. It's fraud. A call to the state attorney general's office is in order. Contractors often think they can change their name to skirt a lawsuit, but they tend to get a lot more responsive when they realize they may have taken their last shower alone.

marcolo - in this case, removing the residential exemption would make the code more stringent on the state or local level. This would be similar to the more stringent codes common in California. I don't know of a state that removes the residential exemption from ADA and was only making the point that the KD cannot use ADA, but must show where the state or local requires them to make all residences completely compliant since the federal law does not require this.

I strongly believe the KD is absolutely wrong here, but wanted to make sure plumeriavine checks the possibility there is some local provision we do not know about before telling them so.

Okay, so I read this again and realized that I shouldn't have said a state can "remove the residential exemption." They can make a separate local law that is more stringent, but can't amend or change the federal ADA law. Sorry for the confusion.

Even IF there are current ADA requirements for private homes in your area (which I doubt), the KD should have designed for those requirements in the first place and told you about them during the design process. Changing the design after signing, without your consent, is just plain wrong. Fire the KD.

"although an admirable idea when space and f unds and desire permits, was never one of my specifications. This was an excuse to not provide me with what I had specified."

oh plumeriavine - i understand that. that was my point. my sister made specific requests for hers to be wheelchair accessible (except the k itchen and laundry; her laundry room would NEVER meet ADA code!) and I will make a few specific changes to aid me also. ASKING for them is one thing, having the KD take it upon herself - well, that's just plain ridiculous! and deceptive.

I would contact the person in charge of YOUR local bldg permit office and get it in writing (that it IS NOT a requirement).

it might not hurt to contact the atty gnrl's office also. If this KD is lying about code, I'd be wondering what else she is lying about... and what other 'code' she is just making up as she goes along.

I can't help but to wonder if there is a special ordinance just for my house and my kitchen and my service porch that singles me out for special ADA inclusion.

I am only half-joking!

Your ideas are all appreciated and give me lots to work on!

LOL plumeriavine. That's the point, they can't do that! They have to review any changes to the approved plan with you even if it is the law.

Let us know if you have any more questions.

I didn't mean to suggest Plumeria should reveal her installer now, just that I had once questioned it.