Sirens, 1st let me remind you of conflicting opinions you offered Becky:

"The problem comes when you marry someone from a dysfunctional family who cannot break away from his mother (or father), and be man of his own house.
Most people these days --- especially members of the same family --- don't expect to be called "Mrs."
That sort of formality went out in the mid-sixties!
It seems odd to me that your MIL would want to be referred to as "Mrs;" yet, on the other hand, there's nothing wrong with it, either....if that is how she wants to be addressed, what's the harm in it?
That is her comfort level.

How did you form the opinion that the family was/is dysfunctional? Your assuming that 'he' can't break away from his family because they are 'dysfunctional?' WOW, what an opinion to form and so quickly too.

Also, "be the man of his own house?" My son is not the man of the house, he is unlikely to even be the man of his own car! dil is the one holding the reins, cracking the whip, and calling the shots. You call this being the man in his house?

But then you state:

Most people these days --- especially members of the same family --- don't expect to be called "Mrs."
That sort of formality went out in the mid-sixties!

That opinion is contradicted in your next statement:

It seems odd to me that your MIL would want to be referred to as "Mrs;" yet, on the other hand, there's nothing wrong with it, either....if that is how she wants to be addressed, what's the harm in it?

So is it or is it not ok to call you mil by Mrs? If that's my comfort zone, you say it's ok...but right after you proclaimed it was completely out of fashion? SO what is it?

Who else but members of the same family would be dealing with this issue being sensitive? Did manners, respect, accountability, and work ethic also go out of fashion after the 1960s? That would certainly explain a great deal.

You know you, forms, and cindylouwhoonly2 certainly sound an awful lot alike, but then you could just all be born after the 1960s and be 'out of fashion' (i.e., no manners, poor work ethic, no accountability, self righteous....)

anniebal

Cindylou....and magicgran have apparently disappeared from this thread but reappeared yesterday in the thread entitled:

It's a Shame

The last two posts, one right after the other. :-)

fuzzy,

Yes, one right after the other. Yup.

Magicgran has been undergoing a personality change. Very different in tone and attitude from the first long post by the apparently compassionate computer-using ninety-something woman that charmed so many here.

Okay, I think you have just about worn this out....
In your original post you said you were trying to move on...well JUST DO IT!!!...rehashing this every day (hour) is not healthy....get past it and get on with your life and be thankful for what is going on that is right in your life. Help someone else who is less fortunate and quit dwelling on yourself so much.

"How did you form the opinion that the family was/is dysfunctional? Your assuming that 'he' can't break away from his family because they are 'dysfunctional?' WOW, what an opinion to form and so quickly too."

I didn't say the family was dysfunctional; learn to read and - more importantly - comprehend what you are reading.
I said that problems occur when one marries a person who cannot break away from their emmeshed role in a dysfunctional family.
That should be obvious; yet, I am having to clarify.
Let me get this straight....you're offended because of what I said to "Becky," your troll alter-ego??
Talk about gall.

Woman, you need help.

"Also, "be the man of his own house?" My son is not the man of the house, he is unlikely to even be the man of his own car! dil is the one holding the reins, cracking the whip, and calling the shots. You call this being the man in his house?"

I was making the point that a man should be the man of his own house. Whether or not your DIL is "really in charge" is open to question.

"So is it or is it not ok to call you mil by Mrs? If that's my comfort zone, you say it's ok...but right after you proclaimed it was completely out of fashion? SO what is it?"

You poor thing.
It's perfectly clear that I was saying most folks don't prefer to be called by "Mrs.," but if her MIL does prefer that, what is the harm in going along with it?
Some little customs are dated, but so what...it's really not a big deal - but your hysteria suggest otherwise.

"Who else but members of the same family would be dealing with this issue being sensitive? Did manners, respect, accountability, and work ethic also go out of fashion after the 1960s? That would certainly explain a great deal."

Manners? I hardly think manners would ever go out of style. Same for respect..... And as I said, if she (you, as it turns out), prefers to be called "Mrs." there's no harm in it.
What are you complaining about? Or am I just a convenient target for your rage, in the absence of your DIL???

"You know you, forms, and cindylouwhoonly2 certainly sound an awful lot alike, but then you could just all be born after the 1960s and be 'out of fashion' (i.e., no manners, poor work ethic, no accountability, self righteous....)"

Considering that you've been outed as a TROLL, I hardly think you are the one to sling mud. Born after the '60's, I was born in 1955.

As usual, your assumptions are WAY OFF BASE.

YOUR QUOTE SIRES: "The problem comes when you marry someone from a dysfunctional family who cannot break away from his mother (or father), and be man of his own house." Sirens, I don't have any problem reading or comprehending, but it sure seems you do, or a very selective way at looking and understanding things.
I stated Sirens said:: "Most people these days --- especially members of the same family --- don't expect to be called "Mrs."

And Sirens Entire quote is:

"That sort of formality went out in the mid-sixties!
It seems odd to me that your MIL would want to be referred to as "Mrs;" yet, on the other hand, there's nothing wrong with it, either....if that is how she wants to be addressed, what's the harm in it? That is her comfort level.
I would just go ahead and call her Mrs."

YOU DID in fact state that "a person is from a 'dysfunctional' family," that WAS your assumption, and YOUR quote!

You state a 'man should be the man of his house' yet, dil can be the one in control? How does this make him the 'man of his house'??

Any man cowtowing to his wife's commands, or any woman cowtowing to her husband's demands is not a whole person, they are weak, and suffering from a lack of self esteem, and self worth.

You state in one sentence how outdated calling anyone "Mrs" is, a thing of the past, from the sixties, yet now you want to have it both ways?!! Now you want to say, well even tho it is old fashioned and no one does it, if that's what your mil wants, then it's ok?

Sirens, it doesn't matter whether your answering to 'becky' or 'anniebal' your answer is still your answer...period.
, it didn't change because of who the person was asking the question. So you change your opinion based on who is writing it? This would make sense since you definitely side with the poor, misteated dils. You seem very insecure.

Yes, I can sling mud because I admitted what I did, and why. Where is the admission from all the other hypocrites on this site, that have been more then one person for who knows how long! Now they want to take the high road, I don't think so.

Obviously my assumptions are not way off base, or you wouldn't be defending them so ferociuosly. Everyone can see through your contradictory statements, and see what type of person you really are.

I wonder what your other IDs are on this web forum? I wonder how many other sites you frequent, or "Troll?"

Sad that some people can't admit their faults.

Woah, anneibal/becky, back up a minute lady, I haven't really been following all this mess other than to get my laugh for the day, but I certainly don't think you have much room to talk. I expect other people to jump down someone's back, but with your history, I certainly wouldn't be calling out people or referring to them as trolls after what you did. Plus, I'm not seeing anything that points 100% to sirens being a troll. It may just be wishful thinking on your part.

Admitting you did something wrong, (after you had been called out) doesn't make you a saint, of give you any more entitlement. People may have forgiven you, but not all is forgotten, and when you treat other people harshly for doing what you did (or less), it just doesn't sit well. Just because you got caught, and admitted doing something, doesn't mean you can't be considered a hypocrite when you attack people you "think" are doing something similar.

IMHO, If you were truly sorry, you should be acting differently and showing others the same compassion that was shown to you.

Just so everyone on the board can see the post Anniebal is RANTING about, I am pasting it, here.

"Becky, you asked if your husband "should remove himself" from his family except for holiday visits --- actually, when a man marries, he removes himself from his family of origin --- marriage is starting ANOTHER family.
So technically, the removal has already taken place.
The problem comes when you marry someone from a dysfunctional family who cannot break away from his mother (or father), and be man of his own house.
Most people these days --- especially members of the same family --- don't expect to be called "Mrs."
That sort of formality went out in the mid-sixties!
It seems odd to me that your MIL would want to be referred to as "Mrs;" yet, on the other hand, there's nothing wrong with it, either....if that is how she wants to be addressed, what's the harm in it?
That is her comfort level.
I would just go ahead and call her Mrs.
As far as your husband visiting, it's not up to you to tell him how often to see them --- UNLESS he is cutting into your family time.
It sounds like you're a little jealous when he comes home, singing his mom's praises. Perhaps he is trying to get you to like her more, and that is why he is doing this?"

Now, everyone can see what I wrote; although when I posted to "Becky," I had no idea at all that "Becky" was YOUR TROLL....seems you've been caught with your hand in the cookie jar, and you want to take it out on me?
Pop another pill, or whatever gets you through your day, and chill out.

It's very obvious to anyone with half a brain, that I was making a blanket statement: "The problem comes when you marry someone from a dysfunctional family who cannot break away from his mother (or father), and be man of his own house."

Now, I posted that, and I stand by it. It's always a problem when ANYONE married into a dysfunctional mess, where the family members are emmeshed and there are no boundaries, etc.
Do you disagree?
Odd that you would take my general statement, SO PERSONALLY. Some would even say, your hysterical overreaction just proves the statement to be true, or at least, very telling (in your case).
And, MOST FOLKS DO NOT want to be called, "Mrs."
Most people ARE more casual these days, with "titles" -- sorry if that boggles your brain.
However, I *don't* see the DIL calling the MIL (you, in this case), BY WHAT SHE PREFERS, to be a big issue....which is why I advised "Becky" to go ahead, in the interests of getting along with her MIL, and to promote good will.
Yes, it may be a bit old-fashioned; but on the other hand, it is a hill to die on?!

Try to read and comprehend.

Think about what you are reading.

You asked,
"You state a 'man should be the man of his house' yet, dil can be the one in control? How does this make him the 'man of his house'??"

I never said the DIL should in "in control;" in fact, I said the opposite; that her husband should be in control of his home.

Is that so difficult for you to grasp?

"Sirens, it doesn't matter whether your answering to 'becky' or 'anniebal' your answer is still your answer...period.
, it didn't change because of who the person was asking the question. So you change your opinion based on who is writing it? This would make sense since you definitely side with the poor, misteated dils. You seem very insecure. "

I've never changed my opinion, and I don't "automatically" side with anyone - I read and respond. Sometimes the MIL, sometimes the DIL.
If DISAGREEING WITH YOU means I am "insecure," oh well...guess I'll need to continue.

Yes, I can sling mud because I admitted what I did, and why. Where is the admission from all the other hypocrites on this site, that have been more then one person for who knows how long! Now they want to take the high road, I don't think so.

You didn't admit SQUAT!
You were OUTED.
Owning up to stealing cookies when you're caught with your hand in the cookie jar, doesn't exactly prove your honesty!
And I've never posted here as anyone except Sirens.

Obviously my assumptions are not way off base, or you wouldn't be defending them so ferociuosly. Everyone can see through your contradictory statements, and see what type of person you really are.

Oh, so I'm just supposed to sit by, while you accuse me of doing what YOU did? Don't think so, lady.

What do you mean, what kind of person are you alleging me to be? Are you so hungry for blood and drama, that you will continue to attack an anonymous person on a message board, because you cannot get to your own DIL????

My God, I feel sorry for that poor woman! Lord only knows what you have put her through.

GET SOME HELP.

This argument is getting painful to read. I'll bet it's getting painful for others to read too. It isn't accomplishing anything. If it continues, I'll bet that someone at GW will pull the thread.

I've been on the internet participating in discussion boards for 15 years. How time flies! When I first would get involved in vigorous debates, I found that certain people targeted me. I would react. They would say something else that got me going. I would react again. Eventually someone told me that it was because I reacted. It was fun for them. It's not much fun if someone doesn't react. Especially on the internet.

So you two are bouncing off one another like crazy. Yes, there are misinterpretations that are contributing to the mess. Yes, it is unlikely that you two are ever going to agree about the causes of estrangement. But it is possible for two people who disagree to participate on a board without creating a situation where the moderators have to pull the thread. It is possible to agree to disagree. But to do that, then the questioning of character has to stop. The inflammatory statements have to stop. Someone has to stop reacting. If there is no reaction, then there can't be a counter-reaction.

It is inflammatory when someone calls another person insecure, hysterical, unable to comprehend, hungry for blood and drama, and questioning someone's character. You are both guilty of doing this.

Years ago when I was involved in those arguments, the way that I reacted created a lot of fun for some strangers. But it isn't much fun in threads like this which were not meant to be hotbeds of heated debate as some of the boards that I once was part of. I'm not enjoying reading this. I'm sure others are finding it painful to read. It is accomplishing nothing.

It is possible to discuss emotional issues and not react like this. If you stay off of calling names and assaulting each other's character, it would be a good start.

Please consider the options and try something different!

All I have to say (I think I said that before? LOL) is when you wrote as your DIL, it was YOUR THOUGHTS about what your DIL did and how she thought about things. It wasn't really her so, again, it's just your side of the story. To say you did it so that we can better understand or whatever just doesn't "fit the bill" cuz it's what YOU want us to believe!

All this scenario did for me was to prove that one should take what you say with a grain of salt as you are known to exagerrate issues. Also make me wonder if there wasn't more to the stories than you're willing to say... on your part!

You made your DIL seem so vicious, hateful, and controlling! Maybe she is in YOUR eyes only because there might be some itsy bitsy truth somewhere in your stories about how you really are??? How are we to believe what you say about your issues now? YOUR thoughts about your posts as the DIL might just be what's in your head and not hers! So in reality, you didn't accomplish anything by doing what you did. To even think of doing something like that, makes me wonder how vengeful of a person you might really be towards your DIL.

Carla35, who are you? Ive never read one post from you here, or in other forums before? I do find it curious that all of a sudden you jump in on the conversation (so to speak)and never, ever commented during the entire becky incident! You voice very harsh opinions to me, but not of sirens? Sirens who has nothing to say in a constructive manner, unless you consider pointed, harsh, negative comments constructive?!! I certainly would not consider that method of reply helpful or understanding, nor would I consider your angry comments any differently than hers.

Who needs to get help here?

You state: "I expect other people to jump down someone's back, but with your history, I certainly wouldn't be calling out people or referring to them as trolls after what you did."

Really, I'm not entitled to give my opinion? I certainly wouldn't call what I did jumping down anyones back. I NEVER called sirens a troll either, that is what sirens continues to spew at me or anyone else who disagrees with her. It is sirens immature way to try and taunt people back into getting angry.

Well, Khandi, I guess everything anyone says should be taken with a grain of salt. Had I never admitted my mistake, I can certainly see your attitude, but your don't sound like the very forgiving type, that is for sure.

I apologized and explained. I don't need to do anymore groveling to earn back someone's opinion on this forum that I truly don't care about.

Are you here to help, or start arguements?

I'd have to ask the same question of Sirens, Forms, AmyFiddler, magicgran, cindylouwho2.

anniebal,

I've been on these boards for a very long time (check my page) -- way longer than you have and I have posted a lot more on these forums probably than you ever have or ever will, so please do not even try to insinuate anything about me.

I have been reading this post because I was following pinkpionies's story and posted on her other post (you can even check that out). Why your drama is on her post in beyond me...

Just because I didn't get involved in all your personal drama doesn't mean I can't have an opinion about how you are treating people now.

I thought you were implying sirens was a troll with this comment:

"I wonder what your other IDs are on this web forum? I wonder how many other sites you frequent, or "Troll?""

Maybe I got that wrong?? But, to me it just seems like you are the pot calling the kettle black.

PLEASE DON'T EVER CALL ME OUT AGAIN AND INSINUATE ANYTHING JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHO I AM-- I don't play games, and don't like playing your type of games. If you don't like my opinion, attack my opinion -- your tactics of going after me the way you did are just wrong in my play book.

"Really, I'm not entitled to give my opinion? I certainly wouldn't call what I did jumping down anyones back. I NEVER called sirens a troll either, that is what sirens continues to spew at me or anyone else who disagrees with her. It is sirens immature way to try and taunt people back into getting angry."

Anniebal, you *did* call me a troll - you posted:

"I wonder what your other IDs are on this web forum? I wonder how many other sites you frequent, or "Troll?"

You'd better watch yourself; you are revealing *who you really are* with every single post you make on this board.
I'm not taunting anyone.
I'm refuting the lie that I troll this board; I have one username, and one only; and that is Sirens.

Personally, I'm happy to ignore anniebal; I'm not here to argue with someone who's always "right;" I'd prefer to use my time addressing sincere people who want feedback and unbiased options/comments/suggestions, as to what could possibly help their situations....the only reason I dignified her posts with a response, is because she said that I was posting as multiple usernames, which is a bold-faced lie.

Any other forum would have already banned her for trolling.

Carla35, it may be that you've been posting on other issues, but my point was that I haven't seen you post your comments on any of the threads that I have visited. It does seem strange tho that you waited to now to chime in on what you thought of the becky situation, and only after sirens posted very harshly as usual.

Don't tell me what I can or cannot insinuate, since I'll say whatever I believe to be applicable.

As far as the pot calling the kettle black, Hmmm.....I think that would apply had I not sincerely apologized for my indiscretion, but I did apologize and explained, which is more than I've ever seen anyone on these forums do. I will take the high road because that is my personality
to do so. I am not self righteous as some in this group are.

What exactly are the games you are referring to? Please be more specific? Just because I question who you are, and the timing of you getting involved in this subject, certainly doesn't indicate I'm playing games.

Personal Drama? Should I go back and quote some of your personal drama?

Carla Drama:

"I expect other people to jump down someone's back, but with your history, I certainly wouldn't be calling out people or referring to them as trolls after what you did." -- MY HISTORY,-- would that be of apologizing and facing the music, or hiding like the cowards so many on this forum are?

"Plus, I'm not seeing anything that points 100% to sirens being a troll. It may just be wishful thinking on your part." -- WISHFUL THINKING? I don't think it takes a brainiac to see similarities.

" admitting you did something wrong, (after you had been called out) doesn't make you a saint, of give you any more entitlement." -- A SAINT, ENTITLED? Please quote where I referred to myself as a saint, please do tell? As far as entitled, I am entitled to post my opinion on these forums as equally as anyone else here is.

"People may have forgiven you, but not all is forgotten, and when you treat other people harshly for doing what you did (or less), it just doesn't sit well." -- FORGIVEN, FORGOTTEN: I can see your not the forgiving type, and would much rather judge harshly as so many do.

"Just because you got caught, and admitted doing something, doesn't mean you can't be considered a hypocrite when you attack people you "think" are doing something similar." --GOT CAUGHT?? -- I would say it is closer to being revealed, and accused but certainly not caught. Had I not come back to apologize for my actions, and try to explain how I got into the mess, no one would have known for sure if it was me or not.

"IMHO, If you were truly sorry, you should be acting differently and showing others the same compassion that was shown to you." -- OH CARLA, the wise one, please let me know how I should be behaving so that I can properly show that I have compassion?"

Carla, you have a "HUMBLE OPINION"? I don't see anything humble about any of your posts, but I do see accusatory, coldhearted, and self righteous.

Care to post more drama?

No, not really. I'm not going to play that pull apart every sentence thing you do, when it's pretty clear to me that we speak different languages and that you're not going to understand what I'm saying anyway.

If you don't see the difference between my posting and your drama (posting under different names, and then bashing others who may be, your name calling, etc), then I feel for you. And, I do mean this sincerely, and you can pick it to pieces and call me all the names you want, but I really think you may need to talk to someone. I think it may really help you.

I wish you and your DIL well and hope you can come to some peace. I am sorry my words have hurt you. You are right I should have read all your postings to get a better impression of the kind of person you (and becky) really are before I posted anything. If I had, I doubt I would have decided to get involved at all. My bad.

Take care and may I suggest you tone it down a bit. Generally I don't mind a strong tone but I would guess if someone got mad enough at you they may report you for using more than one name and you could get booted off these forums. I believe it's against the forum rules to use more than one name (not just a common courtesy) but a real rule here. So it may be best to keep low key for awhile. Just a friendly suggestion, please don't jump down throat for it.

Carla,

It if were a real GW rule that posters could use only one name, then that would decrease the number of posters in the GW Parents Forum by a surprising number, especially in the threads on family estrangement.

Since the limit to the number of comments in each thread is 150, I am doing my bit with this comment to move this one along to its demise. This thread is terminally ill! Only 33 comments left after this one! Soon to R.I.P.!

It befuddles me why people would want to create more than one account. I mean, I can understand why... I would just never resort to doing it. It sort of defeats the purpose of discussing things in a forum setting if you bring in an invisible friend or two.

Anyway, if you look under the "Terms of Service" section at the very bottom of the page, you can pull up the rules everyone agreed to when they signed up. They include:

"You agree not to create multiple memberships and/or memberships for another individual. Each individual must create his or her own membership."

I'm not sure how they can prove you have set up multiple accounts, but I would think if someone admitted to it, it may be proof enough. I guess it's really at their discretion how they want to handle, but if enough people complain about someone doing it, I wouldn't think it would sit really well with them. Who knows though... Someone was recently thrown off another forum I visit (for something else) so I guess it's fresh in my head.

Maybe mentioning the rules will keep others on their toes and keep them from posting under numerous names too. I think most would agree it's just common forum courtesy to use only one name. If you can't get your point across by yourself or it bothers you that no one seems to agree, then maybe you should think twice about posting on these forums.

Let's all sing to the tune of Ninety-nine Bottles of Beer:

Thirty-one comments left in the thread,
Thirty-one comments are left!
If you write a comment and submit your message,
There will be thirty comments left in the thread!

Thirty comments will be left in the thread,
Thirty comments will be left!
If you write . . .

Well, since we're talking euthanasia here....

I'm not sure where GW HQ are, and frankly, I think they outsource alot of the day to day maintenence. (Deleting posts, banning disruptive posters) But I do know there is no official "Playground Monitor" cruising the forums making sure everyone obeys the rules. GW won't do anything about any thread or any poster until they receive a complaint.

Apparently GW doesn't send anyone over to read the posts or the thread, they just take it at face value that someone, somewhere is offended, and pull it. When you look at the number of posts on GW and THS in a day, that makes sense. It's not like they can employ someone to babysit every forum, and even using a volunteer for the job would naturally result in an eventual bias. GW figures who is going to bother complaining unless it's really bad, so they rely on self reporting.

That's the easy way for them, but a crabby, controlling poster can have a serious effect on a forum. I've seen people who had been involved in strong disagreements have almost every post they made (for days on end) deleted from several discussions on a forum. You know the posts were originally there, because other people are responding to them. GW can pull one post out of 100, and leave the rest of the thread intact, or they can simply take the nuclear option and pull the thread. I've heard of posters being given "warning" via email that there have been complaints, or that they are violating the rules, but what I've heard more of lately is posters given a form of temporary "banishment", that is, they find themselves unable to log in to post. But - if you write The Powers That Be at GW and simply state that your password for xyz user ID isn't working, they'll reinstate you, no questions asked. Still, repeated often enough, the net effect is that poster being targeted looses interest, and the complainer ends up driving them away from the forum. That's certainly understandable: how much fun can it be to have what you've written end up deleted without explaination over and over and over?

If they're determined enough, they can get a new email address and a new ID and come back to post again (like you did). FWIW, that's why I didn't publicly explain ISP info; it makes "stalking" too easy. But maybe now GW will give this entire thread a merciful death?

bloobird,

Two questions:

What does THS stand for?
And are you referring to me when you say "If they're determined enough . . ."

Because if you are referring to me, you are incorrect about my being "determined enough". I have never been in a situation here on GW where I would be removed. My other id, as you should know, is one that was never used for insulting or objectionable posts. My only reason for using amomymous is because of being stalked. The person who stalks me has used multiple names on another group to which I once belonged but quit due to being harrassed.

I can post at any time under my other name on here. I am choosing not to post under that name. I have nothing to be "determined" about. Perhaps you are referring to someone else and I am taking it personally?

Ivillage divides it's forums into different websites.

GW is Garden Web: Gardening, landscaping, plants.
THS is That Home Site: House and people. It's where we are now.
And The Nature Net: birdwatching, camping, the great outdoors.

I tend to refer to GW when I mean iVillage because that's the section I've been on the longest, but really, this is the iVillage carnival, and if you want to ride, or need to complain about a bully on the merry go round, that's who you talk to.

Yes, I was referring to you, but not the way you think. That's my mistake for not 'splaining myself better. When I wrote determined, I meant a poster who has become the target of someone's personal vendetta can simply get a new ID and loose the stalker. In that sense, the poster with the new ID is determined not to let the stalker silence him/her.

bloobird,

Thank you for explaining that. I appreciate it.

Even by using this new name I am silenced in some ways because of my awareness of being stalked but in other ways I have more freedom. So it's not all bad.

Carla, I may pick apart some of the things you state, but I haven't called you any names.

As far as bashing others for something I myself did, I don't believe I was bashing anyone. I was pointing out the hypocracy of people complaining about me (only a few,) and waht I did, when they themselves are most likely doing the same thing. I'm tired of this discussion. As I stated, I felt badly for what I did, it was out of character for me, and I apologized once I realized what a bad idea it was. I wish I would have realized it before I ever did it, but that is history. Do you think I ever planned on doing this? It was a very spontaneous reaction, which is why it turned out so badly. Remember, never say never since it will usually come back to bite you. I have done things since the estrangement began that I would never have thought possible. The emotional roller coaster is overwhelming, and I have no say in his cruel, cold hearted, cowardly decision to cut us out of his life. I have yet to read anyone here posting an apology for having more then one id. The one's doing it, still act as if they haven't been discovered.

I think this discussion is over.

Amen to that!

I admit to using 2 ID names, but I stopped using the first before starting the second, so I am still only the same one person. My reason, in case anyone cares (which I doubt) is that, as bornintheusa, I'd been becoming too abrasive in my posts, too reacting to some of the mean things people were saying. I decided not to continue that and to try to hold more to what I've been through estrangement, how I coped, how good things are getting now that it's over. My main goal is to try to bring support and hope to parents whose children have estranged themselves. If I have opinions different from others on the forum, I am trying not to attack, but to discuss positively or ignore, if necessary. This does NOT mean I'm going to turn into Ms. Perfect. It only means I'm trying to be a better person. Under my new ID I am trying to work on that, and I have no need to hide who I am or who I have been in the past (one and the same).

Anyone else, including Anniebal, Bloobird, and others, who are also trying, I applaud you all.

Two other posters seem to be gone in addition to the triumvirate - and they both had the same writing style as forms and cindylou...... lots of shouting through use of capital letters. Were there possibly 5 personas coming from one person?

I never truly thought magicgran was 90, but I did think she had some worthwhile thoughts until she went too far in one post. I always believed the other two (now possibly 4?) were either the same person or someone who had recruited friends who would support his/her position.

I thought that recent events were very educational. I am sure that everyone who reads these threads has learned something that will benefit them.

We all make mistakes. We have the opportunity to learn from them.

My take on anniebal's adventure as Becky was not negative because I had been reading the threads for some time and had felt dismayed at the discord which was in fact made worse by some of the posts written by the triumvirate poster and then by others who felt supported in their own positions by the triumvirate poster. A gang gets to be a lot bigger when the ranks are swelled by the apparent presence of more who agree than actually exist. When Anniebal presented us with "Becky", there was an entirely different reaction to the clear outrageousness of Becky's actions and thoughts. This took the thread in an entirely new direction, one very different from the negativity towards the mothers here. One of more sympathy. I suspected very early on that Becky was not real but I enjoyed reading the different reactions than had been the norm on the board. Suddenly almost everyone was united against Becky. But then Becky turned out not to be Becky and everyone was mad. Including a member of the same triumvirate that had given anniebal a hard time in other threads. I didn't know till bloobird told us about ISP's that cindylou was part of a triumvirate. Bloobird knew but none of the rest of us knew.

So I am glad that anniebal had her Becky adventure. I understand that she feels uncomfortable with it now and regrets having upset anyone. I think that she is a very emotional person and that she tries to do the right thing and occasionally goofs up as we all do. I can see that things bother her easily.

I wouldn't be posting now under amomymous if it hadn't happened. I had created amomymous's name in case I needed to post but hadn't used it until this occurred.

I am glad it all happened. I never would have known about cindylou/magicgran/forms if this hadn't happened. I like to know if someone is somewhat real or not. I don't know what,if anything, was real in the cindylou/forms/magicgran posts or if that person is capable of being real. Maybe we would have liked her if she had been real. Maybe she can't be real. Maybe her behavior is a metaphor for her life.

One other consequence of my learning about the ISP numbers and the existence of the three headed poster is that I am suspicious now of any new poster who subscribes to GW and whose ISP number shows them as being from a certain geographical area.

amomymous -- fyi -- an isp number only shows where a particular server is located, not where a poster is located. And the fact that many isp numbers are dynamic, i.e., they can change, some more often than others, complicates matters.

Actually, based only on the outrageous coincidences, I suspected a troll, and I did warn them that they could be caught. But at that point, I hadn't looked at anything other than what was posted. The story was obvious enough. All I did was point out that it was easy to prove the authorship. Natalie did the real decetive work, pulling the original incidents out of different posts.

After all that, I can't help but laugh at the way the pot is still calling the kettle black. I guess that fine line between what makes using multiple IDs on a thread right or wrong gets a little blurred for some folks...

BTW, isn't signing up for a new ISP a bit drastic?

Yes, amsunshine, you are correct. In addition, most computers at a business will reflect the same ISP number; therefore, if there are multiple employees registered to and posting at GW from that address, all could show the same ISP.

However, having today off and time to waste - what a blessing - I think I've figured out the triumvirate is not made up of who most of us assume. Of the 5 individuals I've looked at, 2 seem to be from the West Coast and 2 are from the south; can't find any postings from the third individual.

Also, amomymous, your writing style gives you away. Unfortunately, I think the person stalking you will find you again through your style.

amsunshine,

Yes. I do know that about ISP numbers. Thank you for mentioning it. I took that into account.

That is why it took me a while to research the ISP numbers. Because in some cases the same names use more than one ISP number. In some cases the ISP numbers change slightly based on things like routers. I'm not sure of the exact right terminology so if not routers, it is something else. But the numbers, the ending numbers do change in some cases. And the person can sign on from different locations with different ISPs. So if you spend the extra time looking, you find all of the ISP numbers that the names use and draw logical conclusions. In fact by seeing that, it makes it even more clear which names are the same person. I know about the different locations for servers and how some servers do not indicate where the user is located. But some servers are tied to geographical locations. So if someone uses more than one server and one is tied to a geographical location, then you can figure that they are likely in that area.

So it is not a simple case of: if x, then it is y. It takes some observation, knowledge, and interpretation. When bloobird mentioned ISPs, they weren't new to me. They were just new to me in connection with the pages of Gardenweb.

fuzzy,

Yes. I know my writing style gives me away. I expect it.

But I would rather be harrassed under this name if my stalker wants to try to harrass me than under the other name. Which may make no sense to anyone here. I think that my stalker was hoping that I would respond to posts on Gardenweb without my knowing that it was my stalker.

When bloobird responded to my first post at length, in my mind it confirmed what I thought I already knew -- that the name bloobird was being used by my stalker. There were other coincidences involved in bloobird's postings (and name) prior to that which had made me suspicious. So I assumed, when bloobird posted at such length to my first post, that my stalker had been watching for me to reappear and jumped on my post. Which shows you how wrong someone can be about someone else when you make assumptions from someone's arguing style and the position that they take and odd little coincidences. But that was good that it happened that way or I would not have learned about the ISPs and the Gardenweb pages.

I have noticed in years past when I did research trying to figure out whom someone was that there are endless amazing coincidences on the internet. Just amazing! Don't bet money on anything that you think you know is true because of things that you find on the internet that lead you to a conclusion! Just when you think you have found a hot trail, it turns out to be a major wrong turn and it is nothing at all.

BTW I looked at the source code of other discussion groups that I participate on and can not find the ISPs in the code. So not all discussion groups have the ISPs of the posters in the pages.

I am quite sure that the triumvirate that I have mentioned does include the names that I mentioned. More than one ISP is used but the ISPs are used by the same names. I can't explain it better than that right now. And yes, one of the ISP's has a location that is different than the other location. But that is a big server where the user is not necessarily near the same location as the server. The other server used by the triumvirate names has a geographical location that would not be used by anyone in, say, San Francisco or Boston or Michigan.

In other cases of people using multiple names on GW, I am not saying anything because no harm is being done. So my lips are sealed and if someone else wants to figure all this stuff out, that is up to them. I already knew about those so when I saw confirmation by ISPs, I was not surprised. No big deal!

bloobird,

This is in response to your question about whether it is drastic to sign up with another server. I have used this other server for years. I don't use it any more for discussion groups. If it does what I think it will do, there should be another ISP shown for me with this post. I am going to sign off and sign back on with my usual server and see if it did that or not. I am actually on both servers at the same time.

This is not difficult. Someone just needs access to more than one server. But maybe I am wrong. I'll be back to check my own ISP and give a report in my next post.

Bloobird,

if you check the code, you will see that my ISP number for my previous post is different from my usual ISP. I didn't have to do anything fancy. That ISP number is the one for AOL. Which doesn't give any information about the location of the user and can be the same for many users (maybe all). Plus it is free if you use another server to access the internet. A piece of cake!

Which is why I can't tell if the ISP numbers that I found with the names that I suspect of being my stalker are being used by my stalker because they are AOL ISP numbers.

Lenoret and amomymous, thanks for your great posts, and your understanding.

Lenoret, I certainly can understand wanting a fresh start. I'm tring very hard not to take criticism so personally, since no one here actually knows me. I need to reflect more on what is being said, before I decide to post. This is a challenge for me that I'm hoping I can complete.

Bloobird:

In addition to what amomymous described about how to use different ISP numbers, as I said before, many ISP numbers are "dynamic" instead of "static", and they change from time to time. So the same user can have a different ISP, even using the same internet connection/account. Sometimes this can be done by just refreshing the ISP number on your computer -- sometimes it just happens overnight after you sign off.

Just doing my part to put this thread to rest! :-)

amsunshine,

When the ISP numbers of the same server change, they only change within a certain range. It is usually the last one to three numbers that change. So when you find that happening and you want to search for that ISP number in a thread. you just knock off the last few numbers and search on the first part of the number.

For those who are interested and want to find out more information on specific ISP numbers including their ranges, here is the ARIN WHOIS link:

amsunshine,

IP numbers or Internet Protocol numbers, are not exactly the same as ISP numbers or Internet Service Provider numbers. I am not geeky enough to try to explain. My impression is that IP numbers refer to specific computers while ISP numbers refer to the Service Providers and can indicate many computers. Like the AOL ISP numbers are used by millions of users but those users would have IP numbers that would not be the exact same as their AOL ISP number. But the last few numbers of some ISP numbers can change. I guess the word is dynamically. Some people do use IP when they mean ISP and vice versa.

Good job trying to put this subject to rest! :-)

PS. to amsunshine,

The link you provided on Wikipedia was about IP numbers, not ISP numbers.

Whoops -- you're right -- I was referring to IP numbers this whole time, instead of ISP. But actually, I thought the IP numbers were what this conversation was all about in the first place - those are what I would look at if I wanted to see if a person was posting under two different names.

How many now to go? 8 more posts?

amsunshine,

LOL

After this one there will be eight posts to go. :-)

This conversation is about ISP numbers. We aren't able to see IP numbers. We don't have access to the IP numbers. Which is why the information has to be understood to be interpreted correctly. Otherwise someone could come to the wrong conclusion about what they have found.

Ok, this is my last contribution for the day b/c I really have to go now -- only 7 posts to go!

Fascinating stuff -- I do actually think we are seeing the IP numbers. I look up my IP number (various ways to do it, but people can do it by going to the website below). Then, if I look at "view page source", I see my IP number on every post.

amsunshine,

The link that you provided is a Wiki link. So it is written by someone who is volunteering the information and they may not have written it correctly. I think that they are using the two terms interchangeably.

The ISP number (several including the Comcast one that I am on now plus an AOL number if I choose to use it plus a regional ISP that we use if we dial up instead of using broadband) that I have would be the same as what many other people have. If I followed the Wiki directions that you linked, I would probably come up with my ISP number which does not identify me personally and does not identify my computer specifically but would indicate which server I was using. That IP number would not be visible to anyone other than the ISP companies and not be available for others to see except by court order. Your individual IP number would be private.

The servers can tell when you or I go online because they can see an IP number for you or me that would identify each of us to them so that if we did something wrong and they needed to find us, they could do so.

If you look at this other Wiki page linked from the page that you gave, it talks more about these numbers and what they mean. I do think that the author may be using IP and ISP interchangeably.

If all of the IP numbers were in the code of the GW pages, then each name would come up with the same number every time. They don't. But the ISP numbers are in the code of each page and depending on which server the user is on, the numbers change. If they're on AT&T the number will indicate AT&T. If they are on Comcast, the ISP number will be a Comcast number. If it worked the way that you are thinking it works, then the number would not change no matter what server you are on.

If you go and try it by using different servers with your computer, you will see that the ISP number will change when you change the server.

I am beginning to overdose on geek speak.

When you did that search on your own computer, you came up with the ISP number. If you put it into the search box for the ARIN WHOIS database, you should see your server's information come up.

Okay, Before this thread dies, here is a question that I can't figure out the answer to. Why do some member names, like mine for instance, come up in GW member searches and some GW names do not?

I can't see anything in the membership settings for people to opt out of member searches. The membership pages are there for the names. But when some existing member names are searched in the membership of GW, they come up with no results?

Is there someone here who knows why and will tell us?

Yes, I'm aware that those numbers can be static or dynamic. I am also aware that it's possible to look up someone's address right down to the city and state, even for the mega servers like AOL. Amomy, I'm sure you can see that if you're trying to determine if an AOL poster is "your" stalker, narrowing down their geographical location comes in mighty handy, even if they do use multiple ISPs. I like to call that a "tactical strike". ("If you look right here, we can see this poster driving over the bridge...") LOL I mean seriously, who needs 5 user IDs?

It all comes down to a question of common sense and probability. Even with the national ISPs, ask yourself, what are the odds that out of the millions of people using a particular ISP, and living in one state, posting through one address, going to the same website, sharing an interest in one forum to the extent that they will register in order to be able to post, focusing on one specific thread, that they'll all agree with each other? If you want to also add that they all just so happen to work at the same building, heh, well, they're fooling themselves if they don't understand how transparent they are. It's not rocket science.

If you are onservant, it doesn't take long to pick up on the peculiar quirks and unconscious markers everyone has when writing. For example, along with frequently shunning the use of contractions, I get a bit dyslexic when I'm in a hurry. Meaning that although I am a decent speller, I tend to transpose ceratin letters. Some people go crazy with ellipsis......., some frequently CAPITALIZE, there are lots of little clues.

You can spend all kinds of time down that rabbit hole, but in the end, if you want to get rid of an abusve poster or a cyber stalker, the best way is to just write the Admin listed in the contact information for the server and file a complaint. All you need for that is the ISP number and the date/time the post was made.

"Why do some member names, like mine for instance, come up in GW member searches and some GW names do not?"
The short answer; because the GW search engine is clunky. ;^) But there are some things you can do to refine a search that might help you find what (or who) you're looking for. I'm sure you already know about it, but GW does have a search help page available. http://ths.gardenweb.com/search/help.html

bloobird,

About the AOL ISP numbers, the AOL numbers in the code that I see do not indicate the location of the user. Unless I and several other users all happen to live in the AOL offices in Manassas, Virginia. I can state with complete and utter confidence that I do not live in Manassas, that I do not live in Virginia, and that I do not share the same identities with the others here on GW who are signing in using that ISP number. There is no way to tell from that number anything about the user other than that they are using AOL. Sometimes an AOL number will indicate that the user is in the state of Washington. Something connected to AOL is in the state of Washington but it doesn't mean that the user is there.

(Note, if you didn't read my earlier post about my going online and posting with AOL, then this might not make sense to you, bloobird. So you'd have to go back and read that post and look at the code.)

To determine where an AOL user lives, you'd have to know their AOL user name which the ISP number does not give you. It doesn't even tell you that it is an AOL individual. It tells you that the person uses AOL. That is ALL it tells you. Even if you knew the user's name, if they hadn't filled out an AOL profile, that doesn't tell you where they live or anything about them. They can be quite anonymous.

I do NOT know that my stalker uses AOL. In fact I thought that they did not use AOL. I do know that they know enough about ISPs that they know that using AOL obscures their identity. And AOL is free if you access it by using another server as I do. So it is easy to sign up for AOL and use it if someone wants to for any reason. It is not good for being on the internet at it tends to kick you off. So someone could write a post and get kicked off before they submit it and then they'd have to write it again. That would be annoying. So I doubt that many use it for this purpose unless it is their only access to the internet or they want to obscure their identity.

As for my stalker, I don't think they are intending to harrass me if they are here or they would have done it by now. It may be that if the person is here that they are content just to have located me and to read the threads. That might be sufficient for them. It is someone whom I know and from whom I am estranged. I would not report them to anybody unless they did something pretty horrendous.

So I may go back to my other name. I haven't decided yet. I kind of like this name too. Decisions, decisions!

YEAH....just a few more posts and this thread will be removed....it has gotten so far off of the OP subject that is it pitiful!

"To determine where an AOL user lives,..."

Nah, all you need is the right software and an IP address. But since I don't plan on giving lessons for would-be stalkers so in the words of Forrest Gump: "that's all I'm going to say about that."

And either name is good, though I like the "Mommy-mouse- ness" of your current ID.