Ask for a sample of the maple and try a clear finish on it as well as the light stain. Compare it to a sample of the flooring and cabinets. It's pointless to talk about the color in terms of light and dark when you can look at the real finished wood samples. Samples are usually submitted for approval before the proposal is accepted or the work starts. Did your GC leave this to you to resolve instead of doing his job? That's not a very professional approach IMHO.

I just looked on the internet and i agree with mighty, insist on a sample before they start. From what I seen its pretty dark. I have a maple couch and I wouldnt consider it light maple.

Mighty, GC = DH. He owns a commercial construction business and we're using mostly subs that he deals with daily. But this isn't his fault. Our first meeting with this guy was to over the design & details - which is why the type of material was discussed then.

Our second meeting, at the framing stage, was when we were all going to get together, including the guy who will be spraying the stairs, to go over the stain. However, when we called him to set up this appt, that's when we found out he had already started and was using the wrong maple.

I told him that he is to STOP and not proceed any further until I get to see what he has done and whether my stainer can get a color match. I doubt it though, because my stain is very light.

Cynandjon, do you mind me asking what search terms you used to google? I can't find unstained dark maple...

Oops, I guess you can't flog your DH.

Maple comes in several different forms. most people in woodworking dont' differentiate between 'dark" and "light" unfortunately, but differentiate as "hard" and "soft". Hard is usually sugar maple and black maple. Soft usually comprises the rest. Hard maple (at least the sapwood) is consistently creamy white to paper white. Soft maple sapwood can also be white, but usually has the tan to gray tones to it.

What your stairbuilder is probably using is soft maple which has the gray tones to it rather than the paper white hard maple. Generally soft maple is a little cheaper and easier to work with than hard maple as well. The gray cast is definitely darker than the light white that people expect from maple. I would as others have suggested - get a sample of the maple that he is using to make your decision from there.

And as one final note - your GC is at fault. It might be the stair guy, but ultimately it is what the GC conveys to the stairbuilder (preferably every spec in writing to make sure mistakes like this aren't made) that determines what gets done. And from a homeowner perspective - the buck stops at the GC regardless of communication or lack of communication.

Trust me Mighty, if this was DH's fault, yes he would be getting a flogging lol. He has been v-e-r-y careful with our build because our "deal" is that he can't get his long-wished for new snowmobile until I get my new house.

So far, our build has really been wonderful. But DH has mentioned that because he hasn't used this guy before and doesn't have a business relationship, if he walks because I insist that he give us what I told him to, we're not going to get occupancy next month because other custom builders have a wait list of 4-6 months (I kid you not, I checked). So I might end up being stuck with these, which is why I'm so mad.

I still can't find anything on dark maple though which is puzzling. All I can find is maple that has been stained dark, and all the websites show regular maple with various shades of different staining...but absolutely NOTHING showing dark maple unstained. If someone could help me there I would REALLY appreciate it.

Please look at my earlier post. What you are talking about is "soft maple" vs "hard maple". Soft maple has much more inconsistency and is darker/tan than the whiter hard maple. it's also cheaper.

It doesn't matter what you actually look at. Since soft maple varies across the board from white to gray, you need to get a sample, put a light stain or no stain and see how it looks.

Did the stair manufacturer give you exact specs that you guys signed off on ? Usually the stair manufacturers for curved stairs give exact specs in terms of radius, loads, structures, type of wodd and everything for the GC to sign off before confirming for manufacture. Arcways is generally one of the best in manufacturing curved stairs, and I've seen their spec sheet. It goes down to types of woods for different parts of the steps, including finish. You could even have one type of wood on the climbing volute vs the rest of the rail but I doubt why anyone would want to do that - but at least you get the idea in terms of what kind of detail goes into the specs to determine a curved set of steps.

Sorry Anthem, I was responding in my earlier post while I was making supper and missed your simultaneous post.

We have a very very tight stair area, simply because of the raised roofline that I wanted. The ONLY stairs that would fit were curved, and what we signed off on was the design. My initial meet onsite with him was to get dimensions, reviewing his portfolio, and detailing.

His quote did not specify hard maple vs soft maple. DH has never heard of color variances between maple other than in the staining so we had no way of knowing there was a variance unless it was specified - which it wasn't.

Believe it or not, custom stair manufacturers here do not give such detailed specs, simply because they are so backed up. What we did get confirmed was the dimensions & overall design/"look", and loads. and we approved this.

The actual wood product was not suppose to be done until the frame-in stage so I could show him my flooring and cabinetry samples. The exact same cabinetry stain is available locally and our stairs - as well as all trimwork - was to be stained the same color, and he KNEW this.

My husband is an engineer, and that is why he demanded spec drawings for the stairs - to make sure loads/code etc were acceptable. They were and he approved. But at NO TIME did we authorize him to proceed with the build before going through samples. He knew FULL WELL that I wanted light maple, and we NEVER signed off on dark maple. We didn't get to that stage yet as that was to be done at the framing stage.

I really don't see how this is GC fault. Husband or not, stair contractor does not have signed authorization to proceed with the materials he did. Plus the fact I TOLD HIM it had to be light and he went against what I said. Plus the fact he wasn't even suppose to start building until we all met regarding the staining. Once we met, DH would request a full written quote. He HAS to do this since he is running our construction project through his company insurance.

Sorry, but the way I look at it, contractor jumped the gun - at best - and completely disregarded what I told him - at worst.

I will do a google search on hard & soft maples to see what kind of difference there is. Thanks for the help!

For something that costly, more detailed specs are definitely in order. I've seen curved stairs reack into 6 digits easily, so it is a very costly mistake when something happens.

I think you are missing the point on responsibility. Assume for a minute that the GC isn't your husband and that its someone else. Well, the whole reason/concept/responsibility of the GC's is the project and by extension subs. If YOU don't get what you want - its up to the GC to make it right. The GC has to deal with the subs and work out the correct arrangement, financial and/or otherwise. The buck stops at the GC (unless an architect was overseeing construction, then it's possibly at the architect, or the architect and GC jointly) - period.

Let me put it more simply. Since you requested this and the subs all report to the GC who is responsible for the build. It might not be directly the GC's fault, but the GC is responsible for ALL the subcontractors and its his responsibility to deal with the subs to make sure the sub is doing the right thing. Its the pitfalls that people who GC their own houses seem to not realize when they GC a project that ultimately the buck stops there - not at the subcontractors.

You asked "What would you do?" I would tell him to stop work immediately and meet me at the site to look at the stairs as completed so far.

I would insist he bring samples to the meeting that are stained as Mightyanvil suggested (clear and with your light stain).

You may hate the stairs or you may love them, but looking at samples on the internet won't tell you what you need to know; that is, what does the "dark maple" he uses look like.

I would try to get beyond the blame game - the important thing is to get the stairs done to your satisfaction.

Claire

Thank you Anthem. I do actually agree with you. The fact that our GC is my DH has no bearing on "responsibility" to "fix" this problem. Unfortunately, the agreement DH & I have is that "I" am responsible for picking finishings and HE is responsible for getting it built & installed.

Believe me, we went in to this eyes wide open....if DH can build 20M-40M arena's/office towers etc, how hard can a house be? In fact, we did receive numerous freebies/and or discounts because of this on our house.

Please keep in mind that these stairs are being built offsite....you cannot stop a rogue builder from doing something that you have NOT approved, since this is offsite and we had NO idea....and now we have to do damage control.

Even with an independent GC I would not blame them. Point blank, this was built WITHOUT our authorization and WITHOUT the opportunity to see samples.

You may not agree, but a GC (IMHO) is not responsible if a sub goes ahead with something without approval - especially when he KNOWS it's wrong.

Unfortunately with customs stairs, they are built on-site at the contractor facility, if they were built at the house you can BET I would have squawked.

"Even with an independent GC I would not blame them. Point blank, this was built WITHOUT our authorization and WITHOUT the opportunity to see samples.

You may not agree, but a GC (IMHO) is not responsible if a sub goes ahead with something without approval - especially when he KNOWS it's wrong. "

Actually you're seeing your GC through rose colored glasses. GC picks sub. Sub screws up. GC is responsible.

You're overlooking the first part that the GC is responsible for the reliability and accountability of the sub. . .

I know a couple stair manufacturers that do curved steps (floating no less). they are all built off site (thousand miles away). They come in perfect as they are built to tight specs. Not including the specs - they send a balsa wood type cut out of the exact step layout even before they go into production for you to frame around as well. It can be as simple as a curved step with wood pickets, or as complex as curved steps with some elliptical in it, free floating, metal railing with exotic wood railing and rising volutes.

That doesn't help you either way right now. But I highly suggest you get as much detail as possible with the steps. Not just finish, but everything else about those steps, including everything about the railing, newel posts, pickets, etc. If your contractor is willing to make assumptions on finish - you certainly don't want those assumptions on the rest of a very expensive part.

I don't have any advice, but glad you shared for others to learn from this "mistake". :O~ What I mean is, who knew there was any other color besides the typical "maple" color that I have always seen... the light whitish color!!??

And guess what.... I chose maple cabinetry for our new laundry room because I like the way it looked with the distressing and stain color. When they are done with my maple, I won't have any idea what it's original color was, so it's not an issue for me. But had I wanted natural "maple" color, I'd sure be disappointed to find out it wasn't the "color" I expected.

So I'm sorry for your dilemma. I wish you well in finding a good solution. I hope you love the stain when you get a sample, and that the "problem" will no longer be one!

I must say, I still don't understand why you weren't shown a sample with your stain choice before work was begun. I already know exactly what my kitchen island, perimeter cabinetry, laundry room, and master bath cabinetry wood and paint/stain choices are going to look like finished. I chose from their samples. It bewilders me that a superior stair builder (term?) would fail to show his clients a sample of what they are putting so much money towards. I'm sorry for you... I'm still shaking my head at your predicament. :o(

It's easy to get into the habit of communicating with subs in the field without documenting the decisions and requiring conformation of material in the form of samples, etc. especially when only you and the sub are involved.

Switching from thinking like a homeowner to thinking like a general contractor is difficult but it is necessary in order to avoid disappointments. Avoiding a GC's fee has it's price.

Thank you Anthem. I do understand the GC is ultimately responsible for getting this fixed, and that is the risk we faced when DH decided to GC it himself. I just meant that it's not his mistake so I'm not mad at DH about it.

I talked to the builder this morning and have a meeting with him & our stainer tomorrow at 4:30pm. DH will handle the contract, but I need to see ALL materials being used. I'm just crossing my fingers that what he's already started will still match what we need.

Totally: "It bewilders me that a superior stair builder (term?) would fail to show his clients a sample of what they are putting so much money towards. "

Trust me, I share your bewilderment. Thank you for the kind words of support.

Personally I don't like a lot of matching wood in a house and feel that painted trim (including stairs) can often set off natural wood flooring or cabinets better than anything else. I often paint the outside of maple cabinets and let the inside be natural.

I would be more interested in the uniformity and figuring of the grain of the wood the stair builder used.

Good luck

If you are planning on doing lightly stained wood, I'd find out all the pieces to your puzzle right now. I'd find out what the treads, risers, handrail, newel posts, balusters, stair cove, and whetever else there is on stairs to make sure it is what you want and think it is.

Mightyanvil has a point about treating the stairs as a piece of trim. Most places the trim of the stairs are not stained but painted the trim color and only the treads match the floor.

I would be very annoyed if the treads are dark maple and everything else was light. So the treads are the first question - then the rest of the stairs and what material they were made of if I were to stain and not paint.

We actually met with our stainer, who is also our painter, after work today. Since he has worked with this stair builder before, I showed him my cabinetry & flooring samples and asked him what Jake meant by "dark maple" in his experience. He told me that stairs he has sprayed previously for Jake in dark maple are more of a walnut color and even if he just used a natural stain, he was honest enough to tell me it wouldn't look good with the ginger maple I have selected.

He also told me that Jake "is a nice guy" and he's sure we'll be able to work something out. DH is leaving tonight OOT on business for 2 days so I have to work this out myself with him tomorrow. I will definitely be taking all of your advice and ensuring we have all bases covered 100%.

We did actually consider painting the trim of the stairs, but I guess because our curved stairs are also open (ie: no risers) our designer wanted full wood. However we're going with satin chrome spindles that really dress them up & give them some splash.

The more I think how dark that is, the more I get sick to my stomach and shake my head wondering what on earth he was thinking??? We don't have a large house either, that dark would look awful. Oh well. Wish me luck tomorrow please, I really hope I don't need it but could use all I can get.

And thank you again for all of your advice, this has been very gratefully appreciated.

If its walnut color, your dealing with soft maple. What you want is hard maple sapwood.

okay, this is probably a ridiculous thought on a possible solution if you absolutely HATE the stair color and the stairman won't give you the color you do prefer.

Are you doing a contemporary look in your home? I'm thinking you are with the light maple and the chrome mentioned above. If so, what about carpeting those stairs. I know you just paid tons of money for the staircase and all, but I agree that the walnut color does not sound like it will compliment a ginger stain.

If all else fails, can you find a neutral carpet that compliments the look you are going for in your house? I mean, you could choose a zebra print (seriously, we toured a rather contemporary home last winter that had that in the master.... and it looked surprisingly good) or some other pattern or solid that speaks to you and would give your stairs a statement if desired.

Anyway, it's just a thought if you can't remedy this issue to your satisfaction.

Best wishes. Hope you'll share photos of your project. Sounds like you know what you want, and it's going to all come together in the end!

We're rooting for you!! :o)

Anthem, I've done a TON of research since I found out about this. Unfortunately, there's not a TON of information out there on it.

What I have gleaned has said there is not much difference between soft/hard sapwood, except that soft accepts stain much easier and is easier to work with. Hence I can understand my sub wanting that wood.

BUT I've also read that you can easily get light softwood maple. So if he went softwood, why wouldn't he just get what I asked him for?

Any pointers before my meeting tomorrow afternoon would be VERY appreciated!

Lora

It's your house.

It's your money.

Stand your ground.

You get what you settle for.

Totally,
Yes we are totally going for modern/contemporary. Our flooring in total has already been ordered and paid for, and is ready for install.

I'll see what happens tomorrow and update. I just pray my italian/irish temper holds in check while DH is OOT.

Lora

Because the soft maple that is paper white is frequently sold as 'hard' maple which it isn't. The majority of soft maple is tan to gray. I could go out to take a picture to show you but its not relevant. You need to find out what he actually used as the shades can go from light white to light walnut for soft maple.

I didn't really want to bump this, but I wanted all who have read and advised know how this worked out.

Met with both stair builder & stainer at the house today. Builder brought "worst" samples of stairs and there were definite grey areas that wouldn't work. However, the veining (in tan) was very minimal but was absolutely gorgeous. It is still a white maple, but they refer to it as "brown" since that's what the veining is.

After seeing my stains, only 4 of my stairs have some "grey" markings and my builder thought, because of the circular nature of the spots that these were water damage spots, but he agreed to re-do any stairs that had the grey on it at no extra charge and substitute for board that had tan markings.

I don't mind the very slight tan markings at all. I think that will look stunning once stained, and will give some variation since all of our other maple wood is strictly white maple with no "attitude".

I would like to say that I'll sleep good tonight, but we have tornado warnings. UGH. But I DO thank all of you for the advice, it's been invaluable!

I am so glad to hear that everything worked out. For me the unknown is what stresses me out. Most times when I can actually see what the problem is and potential solutions it's easy to deal with. I finally told hubby to stop calling me at work with all the little problems that come up during the day. Unless I can see it for myself I don't want to know!

I am embarrassed about all the times I hit the roof over things when I didn't know all the details. Thankfully hubby was always the buffer between me and the GC so I had always cooled down by the time I had to deal with the issues.

Can't wait to see pictures of your stairs!