My 13 year old granddaughter will be wearing one of these Herbst appliances very soon, but it's not intended to correct an overbite or underbite. She had been experiencing headaches for about the past two years, and for over a year her jaw has been making a loud clicking sound as she opens and closes her mouth causing her pain each time. She was finally taken to a dentist who then referred her to an orthodontist. They thought it may be TMJ, so the doctor ordered an MRI of her jaw area. It was not TMJ. The right side of her jaw isn't even connected, and the clicking noises are coming from left side of her jaw . The orthodontist said he has never seen a case so sever as this in a child before...only saw cases like this with adults who have been in a traumatic auto accident, or who have had a forceful blow to their face. Her mom doesn't recall any such things ever happening as she was growing up. But I do remember when she had a root canal and cap done at the age of 3 or 4 years old. I distinctly recall how she cried in pain for hours afterwards and I couldn't find a way to comfort her. I even drove her back to the dental office where it was performed that same day and they insisted nothing was wrong with her. The orthodontist who just recently requested the MRI be done, said she has a smaller mouth than most others. I have a gut feeling, and from after talking with others about this, that there's a possibility that when they did the root canal procedure it may have partially dislocated her jaw and that her jaw never went back into the normal position as she was growing all these years. The Orthodontist does not guarantee that wearing the Herbst will even solve her problems in the end, which is heart wrenching to even think of. It's even more heartbreaking to know the pain she is going to have to endure wearing this appliance. But worse, if it doesn't work, they said surgery is the next option. I've heard that with surgery nerves will be cut and loss of feeling in the chin area occurs causing the person to always drool. That would be so traumatic for any teenager to have to deal with. This is so difficult to even imagine what might happen in the long run. I just pray that wearing the Herbst will completely correct her condition. Please, if there is anyone else who has had this similar condition, please let me know how your results were with wearing this appliance.

All of you are starting to really anger me. Tracystoke with her post:"yawn ,yawn ,get out and about and sniff smells" is about as disrespectful and rude as it gets. The others nitpicking and thinking they have all the answers and solutions to secrecy's desperate cry for help. I understand that he gives reasons why he can't do certain things that are suggested to him. Why is he being accused of making excuses. I see cold heartless responses and "You are the problem" when met with lack of an instant "Eureka!!!" moment default everyday suggestions that really can not work in his situation. He has and told us he has been diagnosed. He has to battle a mental illness. He is depressed. His home situation is deplorable. Does everyone think he really is possibly lazy, or doesnt want to have a job or bother looking for one, etc. etc. etc.??? HELLOOOOOO! He is reaching out for advice and telling someone with his illness and home situation to go get a job, or stay with someone else, etc. just doesn't cut it. I am sure some of the people mean well. I myself am on disability, with a couple illnesses with no cure. By the way, I also have Narcolepsy. I am stuck in an abusive situation just to keep a roof over my head and not end up homeless. Secrecy, I have a couple suggestions, and will understand if you have difficulties with them. Just try your best. The first good thing you are doing for yourself is asking for help, and sticking to your guns and not dropping off this thread and giving up (at least to as far as I have read). You do sleep so much with depression, let alone any other problems with it. If you can, try to get on several different additional forums such as one for Mental health or depression, looking for work is an insane undertaking at this point in your life. Does everyone really think that if secrecy gets a job how can he actually function with the mental and physical state he is in? Number 1, try to get help with depression, maybe getting medications, help with how to COPE with your home situation. Number 2, try to get from Mental Health doctor a referral to a sleep center to get tested for Narcolepsy. If indeed diagnosed with that too, medicine will do wonders and get you in a regular sleep cycle. If you don't have it, then,you know depression is a big factor. I am not going to guess or diagnose, just adding on to what you have told us. If you try and work with Mental Health, (therapy/meds), learn to cope with home situation (for now, not forever),(through therapy and/or support forums) - ask the people at mental health if you can qualify for their housing. Most Mental Health facilities in just about every town in the US has rooms, group homes, apts. set up for their patients. if they don't, I know they have referrals to agencies that will help. I wish you the best of luck and many blessings for your recovery from the nightmare you have been living in. Do not give up! I have a list of how to help or not help people with chronic illness written by Not Done Living: DON�T assume because I look well that I feel well. Looks can be very deceiving. Many days I look great, but I feel terrible. DON�T tell me you know how I feel. No one knows how anyone else feels. Two people with the same disease may feel totally different. We all have varying thresholds of pain, and pain cannot be measured. DON�T tell me about your great-aunt GERTRUDE and her illness, and how well she managed in spite of it. I am not AUNT GERTRUDE, and I am doing my best. DON�T tell me, "It could be worse". Yes, it could be, but I don�t need to be reminded. DON�T decide what I am capable of doing. Chronic physical illness doesn�t affect the brain. Allow me to decide what activities I can participate in. There may be times I might make the wrong decision, and if I do, I�ll know it soon enough. DON�T be upset that you cannot ease my pain. It won�t do any good for both of us to be miserable. DON�T ask me how I feel unless you really want to know. You may hear a lot more than you are prepared to listen to. DON�T assume because I did a certain activity yesterday that I can do it today. Chronic illness and pain is ever-changing. DON�T tell me about the latest fad �cure�. I want to be cured more than anything, and if there is a legitimate cure out there, my doctor will let me know. DO learn everything you can about the disease. The more you know, the better equipped you will be to know what to expect. DO realize I am angry and frustrated with the disease, not with you. DO let me know you are available to help me when I ask. I�ll be grateful. DO offer me lots of hugs and encouragement. DO understand why I cancel plans at the last minute. I never know from one day to the next how I will feel. Chronic illness is like that. DO continue to invite me to all the activities. Just because I am not able to bike ride along with the gang does not mean I can�t meet you for the picnic at the end of the trail. Please let me decide � If I cancel activities, please do not stop inviting me. I do not deserve to be shut out or forgotten and left alone. Do not give up on my life, I have a hard time doing that myself.

OK. I am finding this too weird. I thought I was catlover. For some egocentric reason I was sitting here wondering how many posts I had made and another catlover showed up. Scary thing is that I have something to say. My son -- now 25 -- left college -- Amherst College -- unexpectantly in late October of 2001. We live half way across the country but had been there to see him that weekend in an athletic event. He was -- and is (he is my son) handsome, smart, and athletic. The Monday we left he dropped a note in the mail telling us he had to leave. He said he was fine. He would be home for Christmas, but we would otherwise not hear from him. I freaked out, emailing the world. He picked that up and called. He came home. He was sad. He, who was in his 2nd year, saw his education as a waste of our money. He felt he could educate himself. He worried that he was doing what society expected him to do. He was home for a bit. He worked with Americorp for a while. He sold pizzas far away and lived with a bunch of guys. He returned to college the next fall. I begged him to do so. I told him he to be anything he wanted -- a vagabond, etc., but please finish college. No expectations would be attached to finshing. He did -- he wandered through a a bit of an english major, a philosophy major, a math major, and he finally settled on geology (he loves the outdoors). He is very introspective. He fell in love. He says the best thing he got out of college is his "now wife." He finished college and taught young children for a year. He is now in an Ivy league law school hoping to work on human rights and consitutional issues as an attorney. Money is not his issue. Hang in there. I truely believe what makes my son a caring, passionate person is what made him leave school. Isn't retrospect a wonderful thing? Adele a/k/a catlover

Kristie, I don't think it's a matter of money. (How would you feel to think that you are sitting here today merely because some hotshot on Wall St. decided to give the economy a jump one year?) For rural families in farming and agriculture, it PAYS to have children. For families in the cities and suburbs, it COSTS. C'est la vie. You can't be led by your pocketbook. Otherwise, if finances stay tight, you and your husband may end your reproductive-potential years with your beloved children still backed up in time, unexpressed. But lest thou be overcome by schmaltz, there is another caution as well: is this h*ll of a tired old world something you want to bring them into? Wait a minute; that's schmaltz too. Well, to sanitize the philosophical discussion in a way that it does not provoke too many unstable emotions, I will couch it this way: The world contains 6,050,000 individuals. And there are enough problems with that sheer number as it is. The poorest of the poor (or the dirt flo' po', as they say in some locales) have many children. Sometimes because they don't know how to prevent conception, and other times because they simply want to have many children. In India the people believe in karma and reincarnation, and thus believe that by bringing many children into the world they are facilitating extra lives for souls who have in past times departed. This is a religious belief, of course. IMHO, after 9/11 it is just too late in the history of our nation to try to have a baby. Our nation is going to go through more h*ll. No, I don't believe what the administration says, those cocky Texas-accented remarks of "coming back stronger than before". And I don't believe that the Soviet Union really fell, either. It's just playing dead, and then they will suckerpunch us with some type of attack. However, before you call me a doom-'n'-gloomer and hit the back button, let me explain. Doom and gloom aren't the main point, just examples of things to take into consideration. When discussing the prospect of having children, balance is key. Balance practical logic, philosophy, and last of all, emotions. If you overdo practical logic, you will end up with dehumanizing, Communistic (I would have typed Naziesque but then I would have violated Godwin's Law), economic ways of thinking about people. If you overdo emotions (far more common), you will end up being led by your six/seven basic emotions to places totally irrational. Philosophy is the balance stick: your philosophy tells you where the right balance is between reason & emotions. Some disagree on where that balance is. Couples often "protect" unexpressed children by holding them back during times of economic adversity or other undesirable things. Others feel that "existence precedes essence", and that the privilege of life itself is more valuable than anything money can buy. After all, would YOU kill yourself because you got a small paycheck? (This line of thought states that only a position holding life itself in supremacy is a balanced position.) Others want to have them as early as possible regardless, because they want to know their children while still young, and share more years of their lives with them. A couple who have a child at age 20 get to share 20 more years of their lives with that child than they would if they had the child at age 40. Happy New Year, Kristie! And may the Year of the Dog be well filled with balance!