Ignore my earlier questions about size of DR and table. I missed those details in your drawing (got a cold, head processing things slowly).

Anyhoo, here's what you could do if you opted for a banquette instead of a stand alone table and chairs. It uses space much more efficiently, as you'll see.

The coat closet is gone, per your plan and the kitchen is expanded into that space.

I left the back door as is and kept the sink under the window to save money. The range moves a bit but even if you have to move a gas line, this should not be that expensive (it's only $250 to move a gas line up to 6 feet here).

I did, however, close up a window on that back wall. I hate to do that but now that the wall is coming down, you'll have plenty of light coming from the DR into the kitchen so I think losing that window is okay, especially because it gives you much needed storage near the range, which is now centered between door and wall, giving you 33" of counter and storage on both sides of the range. Two people could work at the range now without getting in each others' way.

If you miss having the light coming in from that side, you could replace the back door with one with a window when budget allows.

The fridge is a 30" CD model (I agree with quirk, for such a small space, a 36" fridge is over-sized) in a 34" wide cab box. Next to it is a 20" pantry cab. Landing space for pantry items is a big of a hike but it's within easy distance for fridge items.

On the opposite wall to the right of the sink - I gave you a larger sink than what your plan shows - is a 24" DW but you should also consider 18" models (Miele is reportedly most space efficient) to gain more storage. The 18" deep hutch can have glass doors to create a pretty display case, which would be nice if this is viewed from the front door. It's only 18" deep to give you at least 36" clearance between it and widest point of the table.

The table is 42" dia. since that's what it looks like you have based on your drawing. I don't know if your table expands but I drew in one that can expand to 60" to seat 6.

The banquette bench is 24" deep, deep enough to allow cushions or back padding for more comfort. The table overhangs it by 4". The short side is long enough for one diner. The long side is long enough to accommodate 2 diners when the table is extended to seat 6 (you'll need to find a place to store 1 chair). Even when the table is extended, you'll still have 40" clearance between the end of the table and the doorway/wall.

The banquette benches do double duty by providing storage, either with drawers that pull out from the ends or with flip up seats (the former is easier to access). You can also extend the short side of the bench to the hutch. That gives you more lounging space when company's over but it also increases your costs so I left it off.

The cab numbers will likely need to be tweaked slightly, depending on cab construction and how much room you gain when the wall comes down (I estimated 4.5").

If code allows you to reverse swing the back door, definitely consider that suggestion from Boops2012.

Wow, I love this forum! You guys are great!

lisa_a- I don't think moving the back door is feasible as the porch does not extend as far as the coat closet. At first I figured the seating at the peninsula was overkill for such a small space, but then I imagined someone sitting there and chatting while I cooked, so I added it in. That and as additional seating if we have company. It's not really necessary and should probably be abandoned for more important things

Dining table I am assuming would be 48" dia., but it will be a new purchase. I thought about a banquette, but it would really hamper flexibility. With the round table maybe I could squeeze in a leaf for special occasions. There are windows in the dining room, you can see them indicated in the "option 1" drawing. There is a 3' doorway leading to the entry/living room. The total footprint of the house is 25' wide x 18' deep- a 2-story red brick cube. In a neighborhood of brick cubes. It's fine for my husband and I, but I can't imagine how my neighbor (an orinal owner) raised 5 kids here (with one bathroom).

Boops2012- I do see what you mean about the back door. I will have to mull that over.

Juliekcmo-actually I assumed the dishwasher WOULD conflict with the back door. The door doesn't sit open very often (possibly because it's always in the way when it does). Putting the sink and dishwasher in the peninsula has possibilities. Currently, all the plumbing is in the outside wall; but since the basement is unfinished, maybe that wouldn't be too expensive to move.

Quirk- I assumed a 36" fridge because I really want the French doors. There is one 33" French door fridge out there, though, so that's a possibility. We originally thought we'd do an 18" dishwasher. Our old portable was that size. But now we've gotten used to a full size dishwasher, so I'm hoping we can find the room. I think you are right, though. Having at least a little landing space next to the stove should be a priority.

Much to think about. We are meeting the the home depot "kitchen designer" tomorrow and and independent cabinet dealer next week. Thanks to this forum, I will definitely be asking about frameless cabinets. I will also be looking to get a quote from a local custom cabinetmaker.

Thanks guys!

Lia_a- I love this! Thanks for giving me something very different to consider. I will definitely try living with this in my head for a couple of days and see how it feels.

Lisa's rendition gives you more of what you asked for w/o breaking the budget. I think she really opened it up to eliminate that closed off feeling you were getting.

Personally I would made some additional tweeks. I'd move the frig where the hutch is. The reasons being that when you take things out of the frig you would then have a landing zone nearby, and you would bring them out to a very nice prep zone by a water source (sink).

The 33" cabinet on the left of the range I would change into the pantry. The reasoning being are you really going to want to use a "black hole" for much. You could make it a two 15" pantries a small 6" counter, range and then a 30" counter on the right. Being that you wanted to open up the room, I would think your main prep zone would be to the right of the sink. You'd be near the water source and your guests would be to your side view instead of to your back. 30" of pantry would hold a lot which would help since you have such limited storage. Besides the black hole aspect you will have the hassle of being by the doorway to the basement. Furthermore you're getting quite a distance from the middle of the kitchen. I'd find myself using the right side of the stove for landing things off the cooktop. It's pretty to have a range centered between cabinets but at the angle Lisa had, you would never get to see it in it's entirity with the left side being so cut off. Depending how much storage you end up with, you might consider even leaving the window and eliminating the one upper cabinet to the right. Changing out the back door to one with windows is a fairly inexpensive venture especially if you go to the used building suppliers that have a TON of doors.

Where the frig/pantry was in Lisa's design I'd create a combo baking/snack/MW/banquet serving area. The MW would then be closer to the frig, instead of being above your range (better venting and less congestion), family/guests could get snacks w/o entering the main kitchen triangle, great place to house your baking items if you do much baking (or may in the future), and an added benefit is to have this counter turn into a banquet type area for parties. You can busy yourself through the triangle of the kitchen, while guests fill their plates and drinks to the side.

It's always good to think about the plan as long as you can. Imagine yourself, preparing not only specific dinners, but breakfast, lunch and snacks. Don't know how often you have parties but that could be important too.

Good luck and I look forward to seeing what you decide.

Glad you like it, Sherriode!

Good suggestions, aloha. However, I respectfully disagree about having only 6" of counter to the left of the range. That's not enough clearance for most pot handles, which means that they'd need to go the other direction, over the burners. That's a potential "ouch" situation.

Sherriode, if you opt to move the fridge to the opposite wall, you'll need to adjust more than just the space required for the fridge because it's deeper (estimated 27" deep) than the 18" hutch I suggested or you'll compromise clearance around the table. 36" is the minimum I'd go, personally. Anything less could be a turn sideways and suck it in situation, depending on your size or that of your guests. Also, double check the door swing on fridge so that the door doesn't smack into whoever is sitting in the chair at the table. Ideally, the fridge door would be a right hand swing (hinges on the right) so that it opens towards the counter. Otherwise, you'd need to close the door first to get to landing space. Not quite as handy. See the link below to go to an article on Apartment Therapy listing 8 narrow, counter-depth fridges.

I'll draw up aloha's ideas later today for you and post.

A round table is most space friendly but when it's expanded, it becomes an oval, which doesn't line up quite as nicely to a linear bench as a rectangular table does. When you're shopping for a table, draw chairs up to it to represent a bench and see what you think. If you go with a rectangular table, choose a trestle table, not a 4-legged table, to make sliding in and out easier.

Lastly, check out Susan Susanka's book, "The Not So Big House" and her other books on small scale living for more space saving ideas.

Here is a link that might be useful: Eight Narrow, Counter-Depth Refrigerator

Lisa, you're so right about the pinch points.

Sherriokde could keep a 30" pantry and center the range between equal sides (18") of the range (ex. 18" counter, 30" range, 18" counter?). Similiar to what your current layout showed but with the addition of the pantry in the corner. I can see having some area to lay/stage things, but unless Sherriode thinks she will be prepping there a reasonable amount is all that necessary.

Following is a cut and paste from a GW thread regarding spacing...

"Cooktop/Range...Open-ended kitchen: at least 9" of counter space on one side of the cooking surface and 15" on the other, at the same counter height as the appliance. Enclosed kitchen: at least 3" of clearance at an end wall protected by flame retardant material; 15" on the other side of the appliance, at the same counter height as the appliance. Countertop should extend a minimum of 9" behind the cooking surface, at the same counter height as the appliance, in any instance where there is not an abutting wall/backsplash.
[Notes:

Experiences here have shown some of us this is actually too little for an island or peninsula setup or when the cooktop/range is at the end of a cabinet run. For safety reasons, you need at least 18" on each side and 18" behind if there is no seating behind the cooktop/range, 24" behind if there is seating.

For functionality, at least 24" on each side is better, regardless of location of cooktop/range. This space can be shared with the Prep Zone on one side; if it is, then there should be at least 36" on the side shared with the Prep Zone.

In the case of a range/cooktop next to a door or wall, check your local Codes, they may dictate more space b/w the door or wall and cooktop/range."

Lisa your drawing shows the benches for the table (great idea BTW) were 30" deep. When looking online, it looked like the benches were closer to 18" deep on average. If Sherriode gets something more standard, I don't think she'll have to worry about the frig pinch point. Making the benches double as storage is such a great idea when storage is at such a premium.

Funny... It looks just like my layout. My kitchen is 8'6"x 10'6" and my dining room is 7'x10'6". I have 3 doors into my Kitchen and 3 into my dining room. We are going to remove the wall between the two just like you are. But we're also going to swap the kitchen and the dining rooms and consolidate all the doors on the dining room side. So the only way in or out of the new kitchen would be through the new dining room.

This will give me the most counter space in the kitchen because I won't have as many doors in it. Having all the doors in the dining room doesn't really affect the dining room as all of "the action" occurs mainly in the center of the room.

Your layout looks like it could use something similar. Is that an option?

Sherriode was trying to keep the cost down to 20K. If she can keep the kitchen in the current location, she shouldn't have any problem, it they are DIY. To swap out the kitchen with the dining room, there may be issues.

I calculated out that Sherriode would have about 13' of countertop space in the new improved layouts that have been presented to her. I think that would be more then adequate for even a medium sized kitchen.

JPRain, it would be great though to post your layout so Sherriode can see if they could use your ideas if their budget is able to handle that extensive of a move. Do you have an estimate of what it will cost, either DIY or hiring it all out?

Here's my layout:

And I guess cost kind of why I'm asking if its an option. It's going to depend on what's above and below, where the drains and vents are, is the new range going to be gas and are there gas lines etc. I thought she said she was willing to move the sink and the range. Once you move those the cost isn't really different to move it one foot or 8 feet. (Depending again on what's above and bellow.)

My kitchen will be DIY, not including appliances the budget is $16K, but I'm making my own cabinets. (I'm not including appliances as I'm putting in a Blue Star, a Liebherr fridge, Miele DW, etc.)

Don't go by my drawing, aloha (I had a hard time counting the faint grid lines). Go by the dimension I posted for the bench - 24" deep. Yes, it could be as shallow as 18" but that does not allow for a cushioned back. Since this is the only dining space in the house, I thought that making it generous and comfortable was the way to go. At least, that would be my preference. But yes, if sherriode wants to, she could steal 6" from the bench.

It's been awhile since I looked at Susan Susanka's book but I know she gives a lot of information about banquettes in it and I'm pretty sure this is where I got the guidelines for depth and table overhang.

Spacing around the range - I like to have enough room to set a pot or a cutting board down next to the burner I'm working at. Even if I don't prep next to the range, it's very convenient to have landing space for a cutting board full of cut-up veggies, meat, etc next to the burner so that I can add them as needed without reaching across (possibly over lit burners) to the other side of the range.

I'll post a tweaked plan shortly.

Wow, JPRain, you're making your own cabinets? How fortunate that you have that skill!

JPRain, perhaps Sherriode can take a look at your layout and see what things she may want to incorporate into her plan.

Lisa banquet tables are completely out of my league. I just googled it quick. You're right about making sure you get enough comfort. I found the following article that talks a lot about various aspects of banquet seating - looked like a lot of good information (too much for me to read in detail since I'm not in the market though).

Even if your dimensions are spot on, I wouldn't think she'd open the frig more then at a 45 degree angle 99% of the time. Tight at rare times, but very livable considering the advantages to moving the frig over.

I agree, I'd want space around the range too. Dividing up the 36" space as Sherriode deems most useful (and code prevails) would need to be the ultimate decision, that's why I included the clip about spacing for her to weigh out what is important to her.

Here is a link that might be useful: Banquet Seating

In a very small kitchen (mine isn't terribly large either), I would absolutely trade out a full height pantry for counter space. I would store pantry-type items in either upper cabinets or lower cabinets/drawers rather than losing precious counter space (especially by the range).

In your "existing layout" drawer, there appears to be a window over the current range, but I don't see it in your new layouts. Is there a window there?

I also really like lisa_a's suggestion of eliminating the peninsula. I would offer an alternative to lisa's suggestion and do the same thing but eliminate the full-height pantry and hutch and perhaps you can fit a standard dining table in the dining space still.

I like Lisa's layout a lot. There's quite a bit of both storage and counter space in it.

Regarding range landings: To the left of my range, I had the fridge, then 18" of counter, then the range. That 18" counter with the fridge next to it was tight but workable if you have prep space elsewhere. Enough space to set a hot pan, or a plate or cutting board with food that was going to be transferred to a pan on the stove. Not really enough space for any real prep work. To the right of my range, I had a 12" counter that was the end of the run, then open space in front of the door to the basement which was in the corner on the 90 degree wall. That was enough space to set a spoon or spatula, or have a pot handle stick out, and something to make sure you wouldn't accidentally slide a pot off the stove onto the floor. It wasn't enough to be useful for any kind of working space at all. It was ok as a compromise to work with the space I had, but it wasn't ideal. I definitely would not recommend anything less than what I had if at all possible.

Well I think lisa_a is some kind of genius. I never saw that potential layout at all in my own mind's eye, and it really is a great use of the space.

JPRain, your new floor plan is fantastic as well. I think moving the stairs would be cost-prohibitive in this OP's case but it is a wonderful layout -- enjoy your new kitchen!

This would be going in a bit of a different direction, but what about changing the door and window out for a french door that has the right side immobile. That would free up the back corner and allow more light in. Since it's brick and there's all ready a cut out for the window it might work. I left in the coat closet because I'm spending so much on the doors :-) Shallow 15" pantry on back wall. Couldn't really tell where the windows are located. Something like this:

Wow, thanks, everyone! Frankly, I'm surprised I had this little brainstorm given my cold. I feel like I'm thinking through mud but I guess even mud can't stop a moment of clarity. ;-)

Sherriode, here's the tweaked plan, based on aloha's suggestions:

I split the pantry space into 2 units to keep decent work spaces on either side of the range, not just for ease of working around the range but also to avoid small-ish cabs. IME, narrow cabs aren't as space efficient - less wiggle room to fit large items in.

You'll have a 24" wide cab to the left of the range but only a 22.5" wide cab to its right (1.5" of that 24" is counter overhang).

You have a 36" wide counter (34.5" cab) to the left of the other pantry cab. As aloha suggested, this can be a baking/snack/MW/banquet serving area.

Okay, to the other side of the kitchen. To keep decent clearances around the table with the fridge moved to the sink side and to maintain some storage for dishes, silverware, prep utensils by the sink, I shrank the fridge down to a 27" wide model. The DW also went from a standard 24" wide DW to an 18" model.

I placed the fridge 42" from the bench. While what Aloha wrote is true - the fridge door won't likely be fully opened much of the time - the visual of a fridge much closer to the banquette and table than I placed it seemed rather claustrophobic to me. There is still 37" between corner of fridge and widest point of the table but there will be less than that to the chair back.

(btw, I figured out that the clearance between corner of hutch and widest point of the table in Plan A is 36". Finally remembered how to do that math. 36" is the suggested aisle for squeeze behind space but IME that depends on the size of the person.)

Let me preface this next bit by saying that this is *your* kitchen, not mine so you'll need to decide which works best for you. You'll need to pretend to prepare a meal in each of these lay-outs and based on how you work and your preferences, choose the one that works best, making necessary tweaks to suit you.

However, if this were my kitchen, I'd choose Plan A, not because it was my idea but because I'd rather have my total counter split into fewer but larger sections than to have it split into more but smaller sections. Ditto for the cabinet space. Plan A has 135" of counter split into 2-33" sections, 1-21" section and 1-48" section (not counting 24" of the hutch counter). Plan B has 141" of counter split into 2-24" sections, 1-21" section and 2-36" sections. I also prefer to have my food storage close together - saves steps.

Also Plan A gives you more options for appliances. You can do a 24" DW or go down to a 18" model. You can go to a smaller fridge than I suggested or move up to a slightly wider model. You can prep next to the sink or range with either plan but you have more space to do that in either location in Plan A.

Kitchens are personal spaces and we all have our quirks about how we work in them. And every kitchen is a compromise of our kitchen dreams (dang it ;-). Kitchen remodels are stressful and expensive, regardless of what we spend, so it really pays to take your time and not rush the design process. We can offer suggestions but in the end, the final decision is yours to make.

Nice plan, cluelessincolorado. Can you walk me through the dimensions? Based on my estimate that the DR/kitchen wall is 216" (estimating that the wall depth is 4") and some guesses on what you've drawn, I come up with the following.

216"
-19" DW (1" cab support plus 18" DW)
-30" sink cab
-30" range
-102" banquette (24" deep bench, 42" wide table, 4" overhang over bench, 40" clearance between bench and counter, which is less than recs)
------
35" remaining, split into 2 on each side of range.

There looks to be more space around the range than that so I must be making an error somewhere.

Lisa w/o question once you took out the pennisula and extended the kitchen counters out, that was clearly the direction to go. I've only made suggestons to a clearly out-of-the-box idea that works!

I wouldn't give up standard size appliances PERIOD. It will always function and look less then it could be IMO. I still think that she could go with a standard frig and DW and decrease the sink cabinet down to 30". My SIL has a deluxe kitchen and she chose a 27" sink (copper no less) and loves the size. That should net the right sink prep zone down from 48" to 45", not too bad.

The remaining countertops like you said is strictly personal choices to Sherrode's lifestyle and storage needs.

Another idea that hasn't been questioned was whether there is much storage space to the side of the staircase to the basement. Since so many LOVE shallow cabinets in a pantry, this may be space that can be revamped to extra storage.

CluelessinColorado. I'd like to have the stove and sink close together, but in that plan their isn't a whole lot of countertop space. I suppose though the back wall could be utilized for a snack/baking/MW/banquet area. Don't care for the area as much but it could work. I don't see what you gain a whole lot by combining the back door and window. I don't think Sherriode can "afford" to use anymore space lost to doors.

aloha, I'm with you - having the option of standard sized appliances is the way to go. But I'm confused by your math (That should net the right sink prep zone down from 48" to 45", not too bad.)

If Sherriode went with standard sized appliances - 36" fridge in a 39" cab and a 24" DW - this is how I see that wall playing out in the 99" currently allocated to sink, DW, cab and fridge cab in Plan B (21" cab to left of sink remains the same):
99"
-30" sink
-24" DW
-1" - 2" cab support (the counter needs to rest on something)
-39" fridge cab
------
4"-5" to spare. May as well go with a 33" sink cab because there's not much you can do with 4-5". Or go with a 36" sink cab and shift the fridge down an inch. There would only be about 26"-28" inches (depends on sink size) for prep between sink and fridge. That wouldn't work for me but that's mostly because I have a kid who insists on lining up every dirty dish he uses along the counter in a row instead of placing them in the sink (durn kid, lol). But even if he did place them in the sink, I'd rather have more prep space next to the sink than that. I know others are okay with less, though.

And please don't feel that I'm not open to suggestions. I need to work them out visually and with numbers but that's not to be taken as criticism. I've had all kinds of ideas for my kitchen but until I do the math, I don't know how workable they are.

Lisa, no need to apologize, especially when I've been to the point and factual trying to brainstorm ideas along with you. I apologize myself, if I've been short. I so excited for Sherriode, when before your idea, I didn't think it was going to be as great as it could be.

You're right, I didn't do the math correctly. I took out a calculator and the countertop would shrink from 48" to 39". For me that would still be acceptable considering the gain of having the frig close to the sink.

We've always provided 36" for a 36" frig and that worked for us. Not sure why the need for a 39" cabinet. The DW resting cabinets would be the sink base and a 15" drawer base. I'm not sure if I'm missing something but that is similiar to what I have had in the last 2 houses.

I was hoping Sherriode was going to check in sooner then later. I'll be checking in when I get a moment here or there since my DGD is staying the night.

Aloha, I still don't get your math. Oh, wait, I do now! You're just plugging the fridge in where the hutch is in Plan A and going from a 33" sink cab to a 30" sink cab and eliminating the fridge cab. Did I get it finally? So this is how you see using the 105" of space between the 21" cab to left of sink and the 36" clearance between fridge and bench.
105"
-30" sink
-24" DW
-33" fridge
----
15" left for a cab between DW and fridge (which means no counter support required since the 15" cab will provide that), which comes to 39" of counter between (cab-less) fridge and sink. Did I get it finally?

However, that really makes things tight around the table. While there is still 36" between the side of fridge and the bench, the clearance between the corner of the fridge and the widest part of the table shrinks to only 30" (estimated depth of 36" CD fridge at 29", inc door and required 1" air clearance behind fridge but not inc handles). That's *really* tight and it would be even more crowded when someone is sitting at the table. And it could easily mean that the only way to get to the short bench at the end of the table is to slide in along the long bench.

Our table is 27" from the couch. When my hubby is sitting at the table, I can get around him but only by getting up on my tippy toes to lift my tush up over the back of the couch and leaning a bit backwards (sorry for the visual). Most of the time I walk around the table instead. An additional 3" wouldn't make any difference and one can't exactly do my maneuver up against a fridge. ;-)

This is, in essence, the dining room, the only dining space in the house. I would think making it seem inviting, gracious and spacious as much as one possibly can in the limited space available would be as important as maximizing the kitchen space. I don't think the dining area should be an after-thought. But that's my bias and perhaps not yours or Sherriode's.

Anyhoo, having the fridge next to the sink is not worth the trade-off to me, especially because I suspect that puts it in view of the front door. I'd rather have a short walk from fridge to sink counter or to range than have the fridge be one of the first things visitors see. But again, that's my bias.

I am estimating the size of a fridge cab for a freestanding fridge, not a built in. Is that what you're doing, too, or are you thinking built-in? All free-standing fridges require air clearance around them and AFAIK, that's 1/2" on each side. So there's an inch. The cab sides and face frame width if you're using face framed cabs account for 1.5" to 3" more (these are estimates, ultimate size will depend on cab maker specs). Sherriode could go cab-free, as remodelfla did in her gorgeous kitchen, but most don't so, as a rule, I include a fridge cab in suggested plans. The other option is to forgo cab sides around the fridge and just have a cab above it. Built-in fridges are more space efficient, footprint-wise, but given Sherriode's budget, I didn't figure she was going to purchase a built-in fridge.

(no need to apologize, you haven't been short with me.)

Math ugh, my brain is still hurting from earlier today. I used 18" DW, 24" SB, 30" range. I wanted to put the range down at the other end for a variety of reasons, but thought that with a brick house not much could happen with window changes, hence my addition of french doors ;-)

My operating bias here. Light filled and no claustrophobia. I know the range works well on the back wall, but I'd hate to have my back to the room. This was my original thought after piggybacking on Lisa a's great opening. No window on the sink wall and 45" between the range and sink. 9 tray cab, 30 range, 30 DB, 15DB, 24 SB, 18 DW 1" panel. Can't remember if OP wanted to keep the coat closet, but small houses need coat closets, says one who has a small house and no coat closet...

Oh c^@p, forgot the door, where is the front door??? Time for bed and time to get this plan out of my head :-)

Well, we're all critically handicapped by not understanding the relation of these spaces to the rest of the house and the outside. In spite of that, I suspect strongly that cannibalizing an already small dining room to feed the kitchen would be a bad mistake. Also, for anyone, investing thousands of dollars in outfitting a dysfunctional space, instead of first fixing basic problems, is a recipe for permanent dissatisfaction.

The door to the porch can't move anywhere else because the porch isn't there? Assuming the porch has value for living and isn't just the shortest route to the garbage cans, I'd use some of my $20K budget to extend the porch--either across to the living room and put a door there or a walkway down to the dining area with a door there--or both. This would improve the entire house and have the added benefit of making the porch itself a lot more accessible and inviting.

Just in case the porch isn't large enough for living, just a covered stoop that needs a door to give it reason to be, my answer would be to tear off the porch so I could move the door to the back yard elsewhere and fix the kitchen--within its current footprint.

I'd also keep the kitchen open to the living room, to allow the sort of circulation that allows active living spaces to live well and to avoid the isolation of the kitchen you dislike so much. Even open to the dining area, the kitchen would be a dead end if you closed the transition to the LRM off, and unless you're one of those families that spends most of its time around a table, you'd be alone a lot. Plus, good circulation just makes a home live and feel larger. Plus, the only route to the basement and back yard would not be through your working area.

$20K is actually a lot of money. If you shop Ikea or one of its competitors that have sprung up recently, you can put in a very nice, modern kitchen with full-extension drawers, etc., for considerably less, even as little as half that depending on your choices. When it comes to budget, having a small but potentially very nice space like yours to work with is a wonderful asset.

Hi Sherriode,
In answer to your question, "how wide does the peninsula need to be to accommodate the range and the seating?" It shouldn't take up any more room than you have shown in your original penninsula plan. You just need standard depth cabinets on either side of the range (slide-in ranges are typically the same size as a regular range), a standard depth 2 x 4 knee-wall behind it for support, and a minimum 9" overhang. If you include the typical 1" overhang over the cabinet/range side as well, this gives you a raised snack bar with a total width of 14 1/2"- plenty of room for a plate and drinking glass, or to use for buffet service. The higher the snack bar, the less overhang required (knees are bent at less of an angle usually if you are sitting higher). This is exactly the size snack bar we used in our home, as our dining room is also a bit tight. It is plenty comfortable and convenient. We also used the leather padded "saddle seat" bar stools that you see everywhere, since they are narrow, but very comfortable (and also very inexpensive, I might add!)

If you went with this option, you could use a lazy susan cabinet in the corner between the range and sink. If you are short by a couple of inches, some manufacturers do make an "offset" lazy susan that is 33" x 36"--that is what I had to use to accomodate the larger sink that I wanted.

I was able to get a good deal on a jenn-air range with the built-in downdraft exhaust (which works GREAT, by the way), but you could also use an attractive exhaust hood. I love the one Home Depot sells that has a curved glass hood- I would have gone that route if I hadn't gotten such a good deal on the jenn-air off ebay.

Just one more thought, fwiw. You might consider reversing the door swing of the door to the backyard so that, when open, it is resting against the side of the cabinets to its left (assuming you replace the range shown in your original plan with a cabinet), rather than in front of your dishwasher/counter, blocking access.

You could still do the banquet seating if you still want to do the penninsula, too. Lots of options!
HTH

I just want to add, that of course you don't have to use a raised snack bar--you could just do a standard overhang, if you don't mind having the range right in full view of the dining space (or you can have one of those "pop-up" exhaust vents). You don't have to use a slide-in range either in the penninsula. You could use a standard range, of course, and just raise the height of the snack bar--it does get closer to 48" high, though. Depending on you, your height, etc. that may or may not be ok (it does hide more of the kitchen "mess", though, LOL.) I am a shortie and love the 42" height for a raised snack bar that I am actually going to sit at.
Just thought I'd cover all the bases for you--not that you wouldn't have thought of it yourself, of course!

You're right about the circulation to the living room Rosie!

Good idea to switch the swing of the back door, Fun2Learn, to open against the range wall cabs.

I'm curious to know the source of your guidelines for peninsula overhang since they don't jive with NKBA's recommendations for minimums.

For a counter overhang, NKBA (Sherriode, that's National Kitchen and Bath Association) suggests a minimum of 15" for a 36" high counter and 12" for a 42" high counter to allow for sufficient knee space. Yes, you can go shallower - a few GWers have because of tight spaces - but that generally only saves room when the counter seats are not in use. When they are, the stools often are slid farther away from the counter in order for most people to sit comfortably at the counter - unless one doesn't mind sitting sideways or with legs splayed apart. So when in use, the shallow overhang takes up the same footprint as it would if the counter was deeper. Buehl made her overhang even deeper - 18" instead of 15" - because she and her family are all tall and she finds sitting at shallow counters very uncomfortable. As I wrote earlier, it's okay to deviate from guidelines but I think it's a good idea to know the basis of the guidelines and what the consequences are so that there are no regrets or surprises after the kitchen is finished.

The majority of GWers do *not* add a 2 x 4 knee-wall behind cabs to support an overhang. That uses up precious knee room. There are other ways to support an overhang.

Standard counter overhang ... I wonder if this varies by region or industry. My 18-year old laminate counters have a 1" overhang and my contractor and his fabricator were surprised they were only an inch. They suggested 1.25" to 1.5" counter overhang, which is the same that was suggested by other fabricators and contractors I've spoken with during the 3 years I've been planning my kitchen. Judging by posts of fellow GWers (perhaps not a typical representation of the country given our TKO-ness), 1.5" is the norm. That's why I draw plans assuming 1.5" overhang because I'd rather overestimate than under (it's easier to figure out what to do with extra inches than it is to make changes when there aren't enough inches).

I had the same thought about LR circulation. With the stairway there, I wonder if that's a structural wall, which increases costs. Sherriode, have you considered opening up this wall?

Thanks, cluelessincolorado, for walking me through your plan! As to where the front door is, I made an assumption that it's to the left of the opening into the DR, based on clues Sherriode has provided. ...the door to the porch is the only one on the back of the house and The total footprint of the house is 25' wide x 18' deep- a 2-story red brick cube. The kitchen and DR combined is roughly 18' deep. I assume the LR runs the full depth of the house on the other side of the stairway. But my assumptions could be wrong.

Sherriode, where is your front door? Any chance you can post your first floor plan?

Sherriode, have you investigated your options for changing and/or closing up windows and doors in your brick exterior? I know this poses additional headaches and costs. I'm unable to offer tips since I've never dealt with this situation but I would think others can. If you're interested, start a new thread here and also over in the Remodeling forum (state that it's a cross post). You may learn that yes, it's more than you can take on but you won't know for sure until you ask. (I've had a few ideas that seemed crazy initially that turned out be good ideas after all and I wouldn't have known if I hadn't asked. I'm a firm believer in "there are no stupid questions.")

So many ideas and suggestions, it's hard to keep up. Not that I'm complaining. You guys are amazingly generous with your time and skills. Love the 3D, cluelessincolorado. It really helps give a feel for the space.

Errrg. DH does not like eliminating the peninsula. He says it feels too much like an eat-in kitchen instead of a separate dining space. I asked him to live with it in mind for a few days to see if it grows on him. I LOVE it, but it does feel very different from the original idea. I'm not that excited about the banquet seating (although it's kind of growing on me), but I think it would be workable with regular chairs.

Pricklypearcactus- there is currently a small window over the stove, but we are considering blocking that up. The back door has windows, and not a lot of light comes in there anyway.

Rosie- we do use the back porch for eating when the weather is nice (we are located near DC). It's only about 8'x8' . Larger would be better, but I think that will have to wait. We have a deck that extends the rest of the way across the back and have toyed with putting French doors in the living room, but that, too, will have to wait. With brick and block construction, I imagine that door/window changes will be pricey. I love the idea of opening it to the livingroom, see below.

So, assuming I can convince DH to ditch the peninsula, here is my current thinking, using Lisa's basic idea. This plan show the whole 1st floor, the big empty room is the living room.

I'm not sure about putting the fridge back there, it seems a bit far away (though nothing is very far away in that house). I could swap the pantry and the fridge. I blocked up the back window and reversed the swing of the back door. The table will be a tighter squeeze without banquette seating, but it works. Our current table is never more than 30" from the wall, and it works fine. Things would be a bit cramped with the table extended to 60" , particularly at the counter next to the pantry, but it could be shortened to 24" instead of 30".

Other maybe pertinant details about us... No kids, just my husband and me (though we have friends with kids that visit regularly). We are both tall (5'11"). I don't cook much now (mostly just heat things up), but I'd like to think I'll cook more when the kitchen is done. I will never be superchef.

Because of how a frig has to swing open, by putting it in the corner as you have it in your layout, you'd end up loosing vital inches to the left of the frig just so the frig could open. The pantry would work out much better there if you get a pull-out pantry. The frig where Lisa had it would work out much better for various reasons.

Regarding your DH's apprehensions on eliminating the pennisula. Has he read through this thread and all the reasoning as to why it helps the kitchen function MUCH better. Once Lisa came up with the idea, we all/most quickly got on board as it was clearly the way to go.

Both my DH and I were convinced that we wanted the cooktop on the island. After a plan was clearly in place, I posted an aestetic question. The thread evolved to making some changes to a decided on floor plan. I was initially VERY reluctant. In my eyes we had a solid good floorplan that had even passed the GW appoval.

The posts had compelling reasons as to why the change. The more I read, I started to "get it". When I shared what others had to say he was even more reluctant then I. When he had time though to stand back and let all the reasoning behind it sink in, he too changed what he wanted.

We have learned so much about ourselves in this remodel. We have to question as to why we want things the way we do. The more we dug, the better we understood. When we understood why we thought we wanted to cooktop on the island, we realized the reasoning didn't hold up to reality.

A kitchen is a HUGE undertaking! Be patient and let the layout evolve into something great.

That's a questionable layout-no significant counter except on the "dirty"run along with sink. The wall with pantry could be better with 12 in deep cabs the entire run with counter-get the coffee pot/toaster/etc over there. Bump out the base cabs to the rt of sink to get more counter-even a few inches will help. And try for a butcher block cart to stand in floor space.R U sure it's worth it to eliminate peninsula? Maybe keeping that turn of counter, but without the depth for stools would be wise.

Banquettes aren't for everyone (my hubby won't go for one either). ;-)

If you purchase a left hand swing fridge (door hinges on left), make sure that the LR opening is wide enough that the door can swing fully open. The wall should line up with the fridge box, not the front of the fridge doors. Does that make sense?

As to whether to keep it there or swap it with pantry ... it depends. ;-) Leaving it where it is puts it in view of the LR but it does mean that it's a short trip for guests or you to grab a beverage from the LR. But it means that you have to pass by the range to get to the sink (usual prep pattern is fridge to sink to range). Swapping it with pantry puts it closer to the sink and table, however, if you adopt the idea I'm about to propose, it may mean that all you get on that wall is a fridge (keep reading).

Since your hubby prefers a sense of separation between DR and kitchen and you want to open the space up, perhaps adding a very wide opening between the two rooms might make both of you happy. This is what I'm picturing,

[

[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by other metros design-build Witt Construction

The wall would only be the depth of the counter on each side of the kitchen. It does mean that you'd have to have the cabs on each side of the kitchen end at the same point. I think you have room to widen the cab to the right of the DW but you will need to reduce the width of the cab to the left of the pantry so you should end up with about the same amount of counter and storage. I'd need to do the math to know for sure and my head's just not up to it at the moment.

If you don't have arches - or if arches aren't suitable to your home's architecture - you can do squared off openings, instead. Your home would flow one room to another but there is still a sense of separation of space between each of them.

To maximize your storage, have your cabs go to the ceiling. Inset cabs may be more historically accurate for your home but they are the least space efficient. If I were you, I'd opt for frame-less or European construction to get the most storage possible of the space (Ikea cabs are this type of construction).

btw, a fridge all by itself, encased in cabinetry, isn't a bad thing. Check out aokat15's gorgeous kitchen (oh, to have that much space!).

Here is a link that might be useful: Almost Finished Pics - long time coming...

If your husband wants a separation but this floorplan works better what about putting in a shallower dividing wall between the kitchen and DR. Same height as a peninsula or maybe even bar height and maybe 4'long and 12" deep. Put some glass doors on the DR side and put some good dishes and bowls in there. Use it as a buffet.

I agree with your DH.. keep the peninsula or it the entire space will feel like an eat-in kitchen. I would also never give up the counter space of a peninsula or island to instead prep facing a wall over a standard depth counter.

I like your plan posted at 14:35, but put the peninsula back, reduce the Pantry and other cabinetry on that same wall to an 8" or 12" deep pantry. Recess the Pantry into the studs so only 4" to 8" of actual floorspace is taken up. See the link below for an example.

As other posters have pointed out, make sure you allow for the doorswing of the Fridge so it can open fully.

If you are up for moving plumbing, a corner sink might be a good idea for your space. It would be located in the corner of the existing sink run and peninsula.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cindyandmocha's finished kitchen w/ recessed shallow pantry

Have you considered moving your dining room space into one end of your living room space, like John & Sherry did here in their former home. It looks like their former living room is about the same size as yours.

I like Laxsupermom's idea of moving the dining room to utilize part of the living room. It provides a nice flow from dining to kitchen and only shrinks the living room to 2/3 of it original size (which was actually disproporiately too large.

To give the OP a feeling of openess, instead of using the frig/coat closet wall, I'd think of creating an island with seating. OP and DH could have many meals right there and enjoy the openess of the windows around the room. While prepping they could even install a flat screen TV (I'm sure your DH would like that) on the frig/closet wall.

The frig could be moved to where the small pantry is. The sink could be moved to the island off centered to be less noticable from the front door being the main sink. The large pantry could be seperated into a main closet for coats and an adjacent pantry that could extend to the back door.

Assuming about a 9' wide island, this type of kitchen would provide 18' of countertop. This would be an incredible amount of prepping area! You would create an additional informal eating area.

The now formal dining room off the living room, can be used for games, intimate gatherings, puzzles, etc. Laxsupermom, showed a table for size for 6, which is pretty reasonable area, but now being next to the living room, the table could be switched around and extended in the living room for a larger gathering, then shrunk back down after dinner. As much as I liked Lisa ideas, this would work out even better with the island.

If the range ends up being centered on the long 18' long wall the windows hopefully won't even need to be touched (unless they go below countertop level). Even then, I've seen some cool window seats that but up along lower windows. With all the extra space that opens up, storage should never be an issue again.

It would be nice if Sherriode can check in more often. There are a lot of ideas that are being tossed out but w/o clear direction, we all may be headed down a path that can't be taken.

Hi again, everyone. I just want to explain a bit about my comments about overhangs in my previous post. When I mentioned a 2 x 4 knee wall, that would only be required if you raise the snack bar above the height of the regular counter, to 42" as I was suggesting.(Someone had made the comment that most people don't use knee walls to support overhangs, but they probably were thinking about overhangs that are flush with the regular counter and just cantilever over the back of the cabinet.)
And, yes, the deeper the overhang the better (less chance of people kicking the walls or hitting knees) but if space is tight, 9" for a 42" high snack bar will work for casual use. it works well for us. As a matter or fact, my granite countertop fabricator said 8" is actually the minimum they recommend for a raised snack bar, (and I've seen "official" guidelines online that state 10" as the minimum). Also, if you use granite, there is a limit to how much a granite snack bar can overhang a knee wall without major structural support (besides regular brackets)anyway (at least here on the east coast where we do not use plywood underlayment like they do on the west coast.) I'm near D.C., too Sherriode. If you are interested, I could try and post a photo of our penninsula set up with the range, etc. so you could see how it might look.
Who drew your preliminary elevations, Sherriode? They look as if someone with a design or architecture background drew them. That representation of a generic person looks just like how we were taught to draw people when I was in architectural school (I graduated back in the dark ages before CAD, and it was all drawn by hand, LOL)

Agggg. I just typed up a nice long replay and then my browser crashed and lost it.

Aloha-I wanted to talk to my DH about some of these ideas before replying. He is adamantly against ditching the peninsula. Even with that beautiful arch, he says there is not enough separation.

Tracie.erin, I agree I'd rather prep facing the room instead of the wall. Cooking facing the wall doesn't bother me much because I don't see myself standing at the stove for long periods of time.

As for moving the dining into the living room, I don't think that will suit us. We are far more "living room people" than we are kitchen people. I don't like cooking (or cleaning up afterwards) enough to warrant devoting that much space to the kitchen. Besides, the front part of the living room feels more like "entryway" with the door right there.

I think I may be able to eliminate the pantry cabinet and use the 30" upper and lower cabs between the fridge and stove for food. I can store pots and pans on a rack over the island.

Fun2Learn- I drew the original elevations. I learned how to draw the people in Landscape architecture school (from an architect).

Thanks, everyone, for digging up these beautiful photo examples. They really help me see the possibilities.

I've noticed a few other threads inquiring into more details, so I'm assuming you settled on a floor plan.

It would be nice to see what you ultimately decided upon doing or are you waiting to unveil everything at once?

Sherriode, here's a peninsula plan that incorporates a corner sink set-up, as suggested above by tracie.erin, that still leaves you sufficient clearance between counter and table.

If you're able to switch the back door to an out-swing door, then consider moving the DW to the window wall. Then you can use the peninsula for prep, which is just a bit more than an easy pivot distance to the range. You could move the DW to the window wall even if you can't change the door swing but I was afraid that an open DW might be more of a trip hazard by the door than open cabinets or drawers (DW doors extend farther into an aisle than doors and drawers).

40.5" aisle between table and peninsula counter (I'm assuming 1.5" counter overhang, btw) is less than NKBA recs but I think it's doable because that's what we have between our island and 42" round table. The reason it's doable is because it's open above. 40" between counter and table feels roomier than 40" between table and wall.

I didn't want to move the peninsula closer because it seems your husband really wants separation between the spaces. Crowding the two might eliminate that sense of separation.

However, I wonder if a peninsula will be enough for him (and frankly, I'm surprised a peninsula works. To me, that's more kitchen-y than an arched opening between the two spaces). Have you two taken the Sweeby Test? Have you looked at photos of kitchens to see if you two are in agreement about how your new kitchen will look and feel?

Have you considered double pocket doors between kitchen and DR? They could be open when you crave inclusion and closed at all other times. If you want to allow light into each space, go with glass doors (even frosted glass will allow light to pass through, as you can see in the first example). You have room to do two 28" pocket doors - a 56" opening between kitchen and DR - with 32" of wall on each side of the opening. (space required for pocket doors is width of doors x 2 + 1" for each door). Here are some examples for you to mull over.

[

[traditional entry design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-entryway-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_741~s_2107) by toronto interior designer Mark Dodge Design

[

[traditional dining room design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-dining-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_722~s_2107) by san francisco architect Studio S Squared Architecture, Inc.

[

[contemporary dining room design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-dining-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_722~s_2103) by san francisco general contractor Moroso Construction

Given that (w)e are far more "living room people" than we are kitchen people. I don't like cooking (or cleaning up afterwards)..., you might also want to consider a pocket door between LR and kitchen.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Sweeby Test

I think we've settled on a layout. For now,anyway. Since we won't actually be beginning any work 'till fall, it may change a few dozen times before then.

It is very similar to my 1st plan, with some improvements thanks to you all. I've changed the pantry cabinet to an upper and lower cab so I can have more counter space around the stove, opened the space between the LR and kitchen with the possibility of putting in a pocket door, and framed out an archway (probably square to go with the others in the house) between the DR and kitchen. I know there were many other brilliant ideas offered, but I think these are the ones that work best for us. Thanks, Lisa, for digging up those beautiful photos of various archways.

Ive started getting cabinet quotes ranging from $5000 for Conestoga RTA to $12000 for a top quality semi-custom line (Brighton). As suggested, Dutch Wood beat both Brighton and Kraftmaid (from HD), so they are definitely strong contenders. If we dont do RTA we will probably go with Dutch Wood.

I think the idea of the archway would really give it some seperation with out seperating it.

It definately has similiarities except by the range. That looks like it will function much, much better the what you originally designed.

I would advise strongly about checking to see if the cabinet choices will provide you with enough space, so you don't have to have your counters cluttered because of insufficient storage. You might think of making the pennisula 12" or deeper and placing 12" deep cabinets underneath. It won't be for everyday usage being that you will have stools to move around but at least it would be a lot of storage with little change to what you have decided upon.

Sherriode, this is a much better plan that you started out with. Yay, I'll bet that feels good! It would be better still if you can make that door swing out, not in. If not, you will want to come up with a system to prevent damage for when someone enters through that door when the DW door is open.

I can't tell exactly how much space you're allowing between peninsula overhang and table but it looks to be about 3-1/2'. That's quite a bit less than the recommended 60" of space for back to back seating. I know everyone is enamored with counter seating but with your table so close, is it necessary? If you don't think you'll ever use counter and table seating at the same time, it may not be a big deal. If you opt to ditch the seating, you could still do a deeper counter - such a great workspace - but add storage on the back side of the peninsula. Your small space would benefit from more storage.

If you do insist on counter seating, then I encourage you to make the overhang at least 15" deep. You stated above that you and your husband are tall so I think you should not go less than the minimum overhang suggested by NKBA. Those 3" won't make a lot of difference in the counter to table aisle but they will make a difference in comfort when sitting at the peninsula. Also, I'd consider backless stools or ones that could be tucked very close to the counter's edge so that you don't lose more aisle space than necessary.

I'm a little surprised that your husband doesn't feel that counter seating doesn't translate to an eat-in kitchen feel in the dining room. Different strokes. ;-)

When I read your post Lisa, I thought I too had suggested the deepening of the pennisula for the extra storage. When I reread my post and noticed an extra "or" in there that made it sound like a 12" pennisula. It's hard enough to explain things let alone my adding/subtracting a word here and there. I wish I had easy access to change pics around like you have been doing. What software do you use?

Microsoft Paint. Nothing fancy at all.

We've been talking about scrapping the counter seating for cabinets on the dining room side. Great minds... : )

Sherriode, whichever way you go, that's looking very nice! I like to indulge myself by thinking about "if it were mine," and I could be happy working there. I even think the door outside carries its weight, knowing it leads out to a nice little morning-greeting and dining porch.

BTW, we're also more living room people, and it was also important to us that each space be allowed to have its own identity and special character.

Hi Sherriode,

My friends have your house. My friends who have to move out of the way every time someone wants to use any appliance or open any door. My friends who never have company in the kitchen because it flows sooo badly. Who, no matter how much money they could throw at their cabinets, appliances or finishes, would still have a kitchen that works or that a a potential buyer would want to own.

I always wished they would just move the back door. Then the whole house would have a connection to the back yard. Then the party could flow from the living room into the basement rec room into the kitchen into the dining room into the back yard. Then the kitchen, still small, would be a pleasure to work in. Sure, it would cost a grand or 2 to move that door. But that's a fairly small percentage of a total kitchen remodel. Money and trouble well spent. Less than the difference between butcherblock and granite.

This is set up in the IKEA software. If you'd prefer a door style they don't have, you can use their wonderful, budget-friendly boxes, drawers, hinges, etc. and use 3rd party doors, like Scherr's. I put your sink under the back window, in the blind corner cabinet. You can put any size sink you want in there.

Here is a link that might be useful: IKEA kitchen planner file

How's the process going? Are you cooking away or back to poking around in the pantry for ideas?

Sherride,
I own a rental condo that has a very similar layout as your new U shaped kitchen. I hated that kitchen when I lived there for 4 years. I lived there more than 15 years ago. Even when I was younger and did not cook much, I still hated it. Not only that the DR was too small to really use the peninsula for seating. Everytime I go to the condo, I am amazed how crammed the kitchen is for the tenants.
My parents also had a kitchen that had not enough seating for peninsula and the DR table. This was in a large house built that way when they bought it. This was a poor design. No other excuse. They lived with it for years but it functioned very poorly.

I hear what your DH is saying about the peninsula but it is not a very functional kitchen and DR with it, IMHO. I think the peninsula concept is about 3 decades old and it makes the house seem dated. My condo is about that age.

One of the things that you and your DH can do it to go look at new condos and apartments in your city that are about yours in sq footage. Go look at real estate listings and look at open houses. Just go look! You can see how open DR/K feel in these newer floor plans. I think for some people they have to see how houses are in person. After seeing these homes, your DH still insists that he does not like it, then I guess you tried your best.
Many homes, even large expensive homes have moved onto the open DR/K concept without closed in DR. I don't think it makes the kitchen feel like an eat-in kitchen at all. It makes the kitchen and DR function as if you have more space.

I look at alot of small houses for investment. Small houses that have open flowing rooms live much bigger than closed chopped up rooms. Unfortunately, if you have a small house, you have to accept its limitations. For me, I would opt for the open DR/K and not have the chopped up little rooms.

I really like tbb123. I think having a table without banquette seating will make it feel more like a real DR and less like a eat in kitchen, if that is a concern.